Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2012-01-12, Fons Adriaensen wrote:

Nice work ! Usually for me binaural without head tracking just 
produces in-the-head sound. This one is different: on headphones 
everything seems to be _behind_ me ! Except for the airplane at the 
end which appeared where on could expect it.


This is again just one measurement point, of course. The 
Fons-measurement, so to speak. But it's still rather interesting in at 
least to regards.


First, if we have all of the original data leading to this binaural 
solution available, somewhere, and it seems that it leads to 
consistently inversed perception, a simple linear, multivariate 
discrimination test (or if you want, a support vector machine) against 
the consistently frontwards dataset(s) ought to give a pretty good idea 
of what makes the inversion happen. Especially with more and more fine 
grained data sets.


I also listened on speakers, using zita-bls1 to do the conversion. 
This worked quite well, producing some scenes with an uncanny sense of 
realism.


If processed right, that is another dataset in its own right. 
Secondarily it a) not only gives us another data set, with different 
constraints (do we know those constraints as well as we should?), then 
b) it tells us that since most people externalize sound sources better 
using speakers than headphones, there is something extra happening there 
which we should quantify (perhaps the dynamical, head-turning aspect, 
but maybe not only that?), and then c) certainly that the purely 
binaural version might be overly specific because different people hear 
it in different ways (so that it should be made less specific, in a 
controlled way, even if there could/should be a way to make it specific 
to a single person's hearing, even in the fully static setting).


None of this is new in any way. But at the same time, evenwhile I'm 
rather well acquainted with the classical studies with dichotic 
(spectrally wideband and temporally low-support excitation; "analog 
clicks"), both temporally spread out and spectrally spread out yet 
temporally incoherent (bilaterally delayed white noise), the second most 
classical test in spectrally singular and at the same time temporally 
continuous power (phase discrimination tests between two sinusoids), and 
many other comparable tests, even in open air/headphones experiments...


I've never seen a meta-analysis being done which would really lower or 
upper bound the directional accuracy of human hearing. Even those few 
tests which purported to show that ultrasonics somehow affect 
directional hearing acuity, which I tentatively painted as something 
which could validate the highest sample rates, many years back, never 
did not follow such a protocol to its logical conclusion.


This sort of thing should be done, in all of its various forms, while 
recording and fully, openly, sharing all of the resulting data. Then all 
of the mass should one day be analysed en masse, using the most advanced 
statistical tools, to see whether/what real data could be gleaned from 
it, and especially which further, more precise hypotheses it suggests 
for further study.

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Hector Centeno]

... so I tested loading these 48kHz filters but I get a "Invalid header" error 
in Max/MSP when trying the HRTF files. The coll files work fine. Is there any 
mayor difference between the two that I might be missing? I used a hex editor 
to inspect the header and compared it with a 44.1 file and found that indeed 
there is different info there. Are these for a recent version of Spat? Mine is 
from 2010.

Hector



On 2012-01-13, at 12:50 PM, Hector Centeno wrote:

> Thank you Thibaut, I've been looking for these for long time! I couldn't find 
> them easily in the IRCAM website.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Hector
> 
> On 2012-01-13, at 7:47 AM, Thibaut Carpentier wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> Le 13 janv. 2012 à 00:52, Hector Centeno a écrit :
>>> 
>>> I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back 
>>> reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz 
>>> only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is 
>>> what I use.
>>> 
>> 
>> 48kHz filters for Spat : 
>> http://echanges.ircam.fr/filez/download.php?ad=239605ZfpX
>> 
>> I do interpolate separately the excess phase part and the magnitude 
>> spectrum, rather than resampling the HRIR.
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Hector Centeno]

Thank you Thibaut, I've been looking for these for long time! I couldn't find 
them easily in the IRCAM website.

Cheers,

Hector

On 2012-01-13, at 7:47 AM, Thibaut Carpentier wrote:

> 
> 
> Le 13 janv. 2012 à 00:52, Hector Centeno a écrit :
>> 
>> I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back 
>> reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz 
>> only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is 
>> what I use.
>> 
> 
> 48kHz filters for Spat : 
> http://echanges.ircam.fr/filez/download.php?ad=239605ZfpX
> 
> I do interpolate separately the excess phase part and the magnitude spectrum, 
> rather than resampling the HRIR.
> 
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 01:04:22PM +, Dave Malham wrote:

> Is there a specific technical reason for doing it that way, or is it
> just more convenient?

I can't see any reason. The 44.1 kHz samples are just one representation
of a continuous waveform, the 48.0 kHz samples another. There is no reason
to re-interpret anything. And it certainly isn't simpler than plain
resampling.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl.

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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Dave Malham]

Hi Thibaut,
Is there a specific technical reason for doing it that way, or is it
just more convenient?

 Dave

On 13 January 2012 12:47, Thibaut Carpentier wrote:

>
>
> I do interpolate separately the excess phase part and the magnitude
> spectrum, rather than resampling the HRIR.
>
>
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-- 

These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer

Dave Malham 
Music Research Centre
Department of Music
The University of York
Heslington
York YO10 5DD
UK
Phone 01904 322448
Fax 01904 322450
'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'

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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Thibaut Carpentier]

Le 13 janv. 2012 à 00:52, Hector Centeno a écrit :
> 
> I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back 
> reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz 
> only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what 
> I use.
> 

48kHz filters for Spat : 
http://echanges.ircam.fr/filez/download.php?ad=239605ZfpX

I do interpolate separately the excess phase part and the magnitude spectrum, 
rather than resampling the HRIR.


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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Dave Malham]

Hi,
  As I've remarked in the past, I find the vast majority of binaural stuff has all the images 
behind the head for me, unless head tracking is implemented. From talking to people, this appears to 
be a less common response than hearing stuff in-head, but I don't know if there's any research to 
support that contention more formally.


On the HRTF sample rate, if you are working on a PC, R8Brain Free is about the best sample rate 
converter with a gui that there is (at least, free one..). If you don't mind command line, Then 
there's SoX, which also has the advantage that it's available for all platforms. Of course, just 
upsampling means things aren't going to be right above 20 k or so, but frankly, I can't her that, 
nor can most people


 Dave

On 12/01/2012 23:52, Hector Centeno wrote:

Thank you Fons for your comments. What parameters did use for zita-bls1? The 
default ones?

I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back 
reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz 
only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what I 
use.


Cheers,

Hector


On 2012-01-12, at 5:18 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote:


On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:49:12PM -0500, Hector Centeno wrote:


Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape
piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a
binaural version. The recordings were converted from A
to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the
calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using
the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular
cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then
binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the
IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in
this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would
be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments
are welcome.

http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/world-listening-days-2011


Nice work ! Usually for me binaural without head tracking
just produces in-the-head sound. This one is different:
on headphones everything seems to be _behind_ me ! Except
for the airplane at the end which appeared where on could
expect it.

I also listened on speakers, using zita-bls1 to do the
conversion. This worked quite well, producing some scenes
with an uncanny sense of realism.


Ciao,

--
FA

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--
 These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer
/*/
/* Dave Malham   http://music.york.ac.uk/staff/research/dave-malham/ */
/* Music Research Centre */
/* Department of Music"http://music.york.ac.uk/";   */
/* The University of York  Phone 01904 322448*/
/* Heslington  Fax   01904 322450*/
/* York YO10 5DD */
/* UK   'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'   */
/*"http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/"; */
/*/
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 06:52:14PM -0500, Hector Centeno wrote:

> Thank you Fons for your comments. What parameters did use for zita-bls1? The 
> default ones?

Yes. As to everything appearing in the back that's probably
just me...
 
> I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid
> the front/back reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse
> SDIF files that are 44.1kHz only so I wonder if anyone knows
> how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what I use.

I always wondered why 44.1 kHz is so popular with EA music people...
It's generally a pain if your whole studio uses 48 kHz as the standard.

Are the IRs actually those from Ircam's LISTEN database ? These are
all 44.1 kHz. I've started writing a small zita-convolver app to
use them. This will resample as required but it's unfinished ATM.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[umashankar mantravadi]

dear hector just listened to the recordings, they sound great. on my Sony MDR 
V6 headphones, i did not hear the front back reversal. umashankar

 > From: hcen...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 18:52:14 -0500
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re:    
> Great responses to my post--thanks!)
> 
> Thank you Fons for your comments. What parameters did use for zita-bls1? The 
> default ones?
> 
> I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back 
> reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz 
> only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what 
> I use.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Hector
> 
> 
> On 2012-01-12, at 5:18 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:49:12PM -0500, Hector Centeno wrote:
> > 
> >> Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape
> >> piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a
> >> binaural version. The recordings were converted from A
> >> to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the
> >> calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using
> >> the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular
> >> cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then
> >> binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the
> >> IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in
> >> this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would
> >> be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments
> >> are welcome.
> >> 
> >> http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/world-listening-days-2011
> > 
> > Nice work ! Usually for me binaural without head tracking
> > just produces in-the-head sound. This one is different:
> > on headphones everything seems to be _behind_ me ! Except
> > for the airplane at the end which appeared where on could
> > expect it.
> > 
> > I also listened on speakers, using zita-bls1 to do the 
> > conversion. This worked quite well, producing some scenes
> > with an uncanny sense of realism.
> > 
> > 
> > Ciao,
> > 
> > -- 
> > FA
> > 
> > ___
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Hector Centeno]

Thank you Fons for your comments. What parameters did use for zita-bls1? The 
default ones?

I guess I could use a different HRTF measurement to avoid the front/back 
reversal. IRCAM's Spat comes with other impulse SDIF files that are 44.1kHz 
only so I wonder if anyone knows how to resample them to 48kHz, which is what I 
use.


Cheers,

Hector


On 2012-01-12, at 5:18 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:49:12PM -0500, Hector Centeno wrote:
> 
>> Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape
>> piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a
>> binaural version. The recordings were converted from A
>> to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the
>> calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using
>> the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular
>> cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then
>> binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the
>> IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in
>> this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would
>> be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments
>> are welcome.
>> 
>> http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/world-listening-days-2011
> 
> Nice work ! Usually for me binaural without head tracking
> just produces in-the-head sound. This one is different:
> on headphones everything seems to be _behind_ me ! Except
> for the airplane at the end which appeared where on could
> expect it.
> 
> I also listened on speakers, using zita-bls1 to do the 
> conversion. This worked quite well, producing some scenes
> with an uncanny sense of realism.
> 
> 
> Ciao,
> 
> -- 
> FA
> 
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 10:49:12PM -0500, Hector Centeno wrote:

> Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape
> piece I made using the Brahma mic, presented here in a
> binaural version. The recordings were converted from A
> to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the
> calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using
> the extended cube preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular
> cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) and then
> binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the
> IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in
> this patch). I wonder if using that Ambdec preset would
> be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments
> are welcome.
> 
> http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/world-listening-days-2011

Nice work ! Usually for me binaural without head tracking
just produces in-the-head sound. This one is different:
on headphones everything seems to be _behind_ me ! Except
for the airplane at the end which appeared where on could
expect it.

I also listened on speakers, using zita-bls1 to do the 
conversion. This worked quite well, producing some scenes
with an uncanny sense of realism.


Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Hector Centeno]

Hi Michael,

Yes, I'm aware of that and it's a very nice feature. I also use the VST plugin 
VVMic for ambisonic to stereo conversion which I'm assuming does something 
similar to the stereo output in Tetraproc (virtual mics with adjustable 
polarity and orientation). In this case, of course, I'm attempting full 
periphonic decode into a binaural sound field.

Cheers,

Hector

On 2012-01-11, at 7:37 AM, Michael Chapman wrote:

>> Hi Umashankar (and anyone interested),
>> 
>> Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape piece I made
>> using the Brahma mic, presented here in a binaural version. The recordings
>> were converted from A to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the
>> calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using the extended cube
>> preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular cube plus speakers on the centre
>> of each face) and then binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses
>> the IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in this patch).
>> I
>> wonder if using that Ambdec preset would be the best for creating BInarual
>> versions so any comments are welcome.
> 
> You are almost certainly aware that TetraProc offers two channel
> outputs ...
> Fons (some years ago) was quite self-deprecaing about the
> "Xtalk" option. But I appreciated it.
> 
> I certainly use them with success for 'stereo', but have little
> experience with binaural.
> 
> Michael
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:37:18PM -, Michael Chapman wrote:

> You are almost certainly aware that TetraProc offers two channel
> outputs ...
> Fons (some years ago) was quite self-deprecaing about the
> "Xtalk" option. But I appreciated it.

It amounts to a first order highpass on the difference channel (L-R).
The net result is that at low frequencies there is delayed crosstalk
which turns amplitude differences into phase differences - close to
the ones that would occur with real sources.

It's the inverse operation of zita-bls1, and you can in fact tune
zita-bls1 to make it almost cancel the Xtalk option.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

Vor uns liegt ein weites Tal, die Sonne scheint - ein Glitzerstrahl.

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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Michael Chapman]

> Hi Umashankar (and anyone interested),
>
> Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape piece I made
> using the Brahma mic, presented here in a binaural version. The recordings
> were converted from A to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the
> calibrated preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using the extended cube
> preset extcube-1h1v, which is a regular cube plus speakers on the centre
> of each face) and then binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses
> the IRCAM Spat objects (I also programmed head tracking in this patch).
> I
> wonder if using that Ambdec preset would be the best for creating BInarual
> versions so any comments are welcome.

You are almost certainly aware that TetraProc offers two channel
outputs ...
Fons (some years ago) was quite self-deprecaing about the
"Xtalk" option. But I appreciated it.

I certainly use them with success for 'stereo', but have little
experience with binaural.

Michael

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[Sursound] Ambisonic-Binaural piece using Brahma mic (was Re: Great responses to my post--thanks!)

[Hector Centeno]

Hi Umashankar (and anyone interested),

Following up on this thread, I just uploaded a soundscape piece I made using 
the Brahma mic, presented here in a binaural version. The recordings were 
converted from A to B-Format with Tetraproc (thanks to Fons for the calibrated 
preset), ambisonic decode with Ambdec (using the extended cube preset 
extcube-1h1v, which is a regular cube plus speakers on the centre of each face) 
and then binaurally processed with a Max/MSP patch that uses the IRCAM Spat 
objects (I also programmed head tracking in this patch). I wonder if using that 
Ambdec preset would be the best for creating BInarual versions so any comments 
are welcome.

http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/world-listening-days-2011

Cheers!

Hector



On 2011-12-05, at 10:42 AM, umashankar mantravadi wrote:

> 
> dear hector that sounded very good indeed on my sony mdr5 headphones. did you 
> record with brahma? umashankar
> 
> i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
>> Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 21:40:26 -0600
>> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
>> From: d...@fugato.com
>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Great responses to my post--thanks!
>> 
>> At 21:29 04/12/2011, Hector Centeno wrote:
>> 
>>> Here is an example recording I made:
>>> 
>>> http://soundcloud.com/hcenteno/kids-running-in-the-wychwood-barns
>> 
>> Thanks! It sounds good to me played on earbuds...
>> 
>> David
>> 
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