Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
It's a while since I caught much of this programme, but the whoosh, I guess, might at least partly be created with a notch filter. If this is at mid-high frequencies, it's a well known phenomena that I first heard demonstrated (on a PDP-8 computer!) way back in the early 1970's when I was at the Physics Department, Cardiff - take white noise and notch filtering it at somewhere between 8 and 10 kHz (from memory, needs checking) results in the perception of a tone moving in the vertical dimension. Dave On 08/08/2012 13:37, Hector Centeno wrote: I'm a regular watcher and I have noticed exactly the same! I thought it was just some reflections from the room but it's interesting to see someone else experiencing it. Hector On 2012-08-07, at 7:09 AM, Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Re odd things heard: is anyone here a regular watcher of The Big Bang Theory show (E4, and on various cable channels)? There is a standard sting (a sort of semi-pitched noise cluster cum whoosh sort of thing, little more than a second in length) used to transition from one scene to the next. My stereo TV (full HD but otherwise cheap 32 LCD type) is in the corner of my lounge, and is in general not notable at all for significant stereo effects, much less anything more immersive. Obviously, the built-in speakers (a generous 2 * 6W) are the typical small tinny things. However, that sting, fleeting as it is, seems to produce a significant amount of pseudo-surround, very much ~not~ localised to the TV, such that every time it is really rather surprising. One day I will have to record and analyse it, but I haven't got around to that yet. Does anyone have any idea if this is just a random emergent feature of the sound (TV or room artifact), or has that effect been designed into it in some discernible way? Richard Dobson .. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer /*/ /* Dave Malham http://music.york.ac.uk/staff/research/dave-malham/ */ /* Music Research Centre */ /* Department of Musichttp://music.york.ac.uk/; */ /* The University of York Phone 01904 322448*/ /* Heslington Fax 01904 322450*/ /* York YO10 5DD */ /* UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' */ /*http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/; */ /*/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
I struggled to recreate this effect - my last paper was on creating vertical illusions with all these cues etc. The conclusion I reached was that they can only effectively be created by accident or by nailing a speaker to a tree. On 13 August 2012 12:07, Dave Malham dave.mal...@york.ac.uk wrote: It's a while since I caught much of this programme, but the whoosh, I guess, might at least partly be created with a notch filter. If this is at mid-high frequencies, it's a well known phenomena that I first heard demonstrated (on a PDP-8 computer!) way back in the early 1970's when I was at the Physics Department, Cardiff - take white noise and notch filtering it at somewhere between 8 and 10 kHz (from memory, needs checking) results in the perception of a tone moving in the vertical dimension. Dave On 08/08/2012 13:37, Hector Centeno wrote: I'm a regular watcher and I have noticed exactly the same! I thought it was just some reflections from the room but it's interesting to see someone else experiencing it. Hector On 2012-08-07, at 7:09 AM, Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.** uk richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Re odd things heard: is anyone here a regular watcher of The Big Bang Theory show (E4, and on various cable channels)? There is a standard sting (a sort of semi-pitched noise cluster cum whoosh sort of thing, little more than a second in length) used to transition from one scene to the next. My stereo TV (full HD but otherwise cheap 32 LCD type) is in the corner of my lounge, and is in general not notable at all for significant stereo effects, much less anything more immersive. Obviously, the built-in speakers (a generous 2 * 6W) are the typical small tinny things. However, that sting, fleeting as it is, seems to produce a significant amount of pseudo-surround, very much ~not~ localised to the TV, such that every time it is really rather surprising. One day I will have to record and analyse it, but I haven't got around to that yet. Does anyone have any idea if this is just a random emergent feature of the sound (TV or room artifact), or has that effect been designed into it in some discernible way? Richard Dobson .. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer /*** **/ /* Dave Malham http://music.york.ac.uk/staff/**research/dave-malham/http://music.york.ac.uk/staff/research/dave-malham/*/ /* Music Research Centre */ /* Department of Musichttp://music.york.ac.uk/; */ /* The University of York Phone 01904 322448*/ /* Heslington Fax 01904 322450*/ /* York YO10 5DD */ /* UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' */ /* http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/**mustech/3d_audio/http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/ */ /*** **/ __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120813/7eae5462/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
I'm a regular watcher and I have noticed exactly the same! I thought it was just some reflections from the room but it's interesting to see someone else experiencing it. Hector On 2012-08-07, at 7:09 AM, Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Re odd things heard: is anyone here a regular watcher of The Big Bang Theory show (E4, and on various cable channels)? There is a standard sting (a sort of semi-pitched noise cluster cum whoosh sort of thing, little more than a second in length) used to transition from one scene to the next. My stereo TV (full HD but otherwise cheap 32 LCD type) is in the corner of my lounge, and is in general not notable at all for significant stereo effects, much less anything more immersive. Obviously, the built-in speakers (a generous 2 * 6W) are the typical small tinny things. However, that sting, fleeting as it is, seems to produce a significant amount of pseudo-surround, very much ~not~ localised to the TV, such that every time it is really rather surprising. One day I will have to record and analyse it, but I haven't got around to that yet. Does anyone have any idea if this is just a random emergent feature of the sound (TV or room artifact), or has that effect been designed into it in some discernible way? Richard Dobson .. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
Re odd things heard: is anyone here a regular watcher of The Big Bang Theory show (E4, and on various cable channels)? There is a standard sting (a sort of semi-pitched noise cluster cum whoosh sort of thing, little more than a second in length) used to transition from one scene to the next. My stereo TV (full HD but otherwise cheap 32 LCD type) is in the corner of my lounge, and is in general not notable at all for significant stereo effects, much less anything more immersive. Obviously, the built-in speakers (a generous 2 * 6W) are the typical small tinny things. However, that sting, fleeting as it is, seems to produce a significant amount of pseudo-surround, very much ~not~ localised to the TV, such that every time it is really rather surprising. One day I will have to record and analyse it, but I haven't got around to that yet. Does anyone have any idea if this is just a random emergent feature of the sound (TV or room artifact), or has that effect been designed into it in some discernible way? Richard Dobson .. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
I personally think that these things can sometimes happen due to weird room reflections , resonances modes, the position of the television etc interacting weirdly with certain frequencies. I will never forget one of these events when I recorded bird sound. Played back on my crappy laptiop speakers the birds literally seemed to be localised over a metre and a half above the laptop. Whats more everyone could hear the same effect ! As it only worked on that laptop and I only had it in one position in the room I reached the conclusion it was some weiird reflection thing off the screen/room. I wish I could remmeber which recording it was On 7 August 2012 12:09, Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote: Re odd things heard: is anyone here a regular watcher of The Big Bang Theory show (E4, and on various cable channels)? There is a standard sting (a sort of semi-pitched noise cluster cum whoosh sort of thing, little more than a second in length) used to transition from one scene to the next. My stereo TV (full HD but otherwise cheap 32 LCD type) is in the corner of my lounge, and is in general not notable at all for significant stereo effects, much less anything more immersive. Obviously, the built-in speakers (a generous 2 * 6W) are the typical small tinny things. However, that sting, fleeting as it is, seems to produce a significant amount of pseudo-surround, very much ~not~ localised to the TV, such that every time it is really rather surprising. One day I will have to record and analyse it, but I haven't got around to that yet. Does anyone have any idea if this is just a random emergent feature of the sound (TV or room artifact), or has that effect been designed into it in some discernible way? Richard Dobson .. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120807/644571e3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
Sounds to me like a cross-talk cancelling thing; with decorrelated material (reverb, sometimes crowd noise) it can produce startling surround effects. If this were the case, you should find that it occurs for some listening positions more than others (TVs with these algorithmns built in usually produce about 3 lobes - dead ahead and either side, about 30-40 degrees off the centre line. If you have a look at the audio settings, you'll probably find that the option for surround (is it SRS or something?- I forget) is selected - and if you changed to straight stereo, the effect should disappear. It doesn't usually work that well in a corner, and should be more pronounced if you brought the telly away from close-by reflective surfaces. The effect can be quite pleasing, but sometimes is disconcerting. Cheers ppl Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology University of Derby, UK tel: 01332 593155 e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk -Original Message- From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Dobson Sent: 07 August 2012 12:09 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ? Re odd things heard: is anyone here a regular watcher of The Big Bang Theory show (E4, and on various cable channels)? There is a standard sting (a sort of semi-pitched noise cluster cum whoosh sort of thing, little more than a second in length) used to transition from one scene to the next. My stereo TV (full HD but otherwise cheap 32 LCD type) is in the corner of my lounge, and is in general not notable at all for significant stereo effects, much less anything more immersive. Obviously, the built-in speakers (a generous 2 * 6W) are the typical small tinny things. However, that sting, fleeting as it is, seems to produce a significant amount of pseudo-surround, very much ~not~ localised to the TV, such that every time it is really rather surprising. One day I will have to record and analyse it, but I haven't got around to that yet. Does anyone have any idea if this is just a random emergent feature of the sound (TV or room artifact), or has that effect been designed into it in some discernible way? Richard Dobson .. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
aye I thought about that - the migrating notches and dips above 8khz - still it must be a bit more complex than that in this case - I spent weeks trying to emulate elevation effects with critical bands and other techniques but never came close to anything like that effect On 7 August 2012 12:33, Peter Lennox p.len...@derby.ac.uk wrote: That sounds like critical bands; in the recording, you'd actually captured something that would appeal to pinnae effects, giving elevation cues you would not have expected to capture without binaural recording techniques. Some speakers also generate similar cues (if the frequency content is there in the source material), so that the soundstage has an upward 'bulge' in the middle, where HF signals seem to climb above the left-right soundstage. Waveguide technologies can sometimes be responsible. Cheers ppl Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology University of Derby, UK tel: 01332 593155 e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk -Original Message- From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 07 August 2012 12:24 To: richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk; Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ? I personally think that these things can sometimes happen due to weird room reflections , resonances modes, the position of the television etc interacting weirdly with certain frequencies. I will never forget one of these events when I recorded bird sound. Played back on my crappy laptiop speakers the birds literally seemed to be localised over a metre and a half above the laptop. Whats more everyone could hear the same effect ! As it only worked on that laptop and I only had it in one position in the room I reached the conclusion it was some weiird reflection thing off the screen/room. I wish I could remmeber which recording it was On 7 August 2012 12:09, Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Re odd things heard: is anyone here a regular watcher of The Big Bang Theory show (E4, and on various cable channels)? There is a standard sting (a sort of semi-pitched noise cluster cum whoosh sort of thing, little more than a second in length) used to transition from one scene to the next. My stereo TV (full HD but otherwise cheap 32 LCD type) is in the corner of my lounge, and is in general not notable at all for significant stereo effects, much less anything more immersive. Obviously, the built-in speakers (a generous 2 * 6W) are the typical small tinny things. However, that sting, fleeting as it is, seems to produce a significant amount of pseudo-surround, very much ~not~ localised to the TV, such that every time it is really rather surprising. One day I will have to record and analyse it, but I haven't got around to that yet. Does anyone have any idea if this is just a random emergent feature of the sound (TV or room artifact), or has that effect been designed into it in some discernible way? Richard Dobson .. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120807/644571e3/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120807/68222ba8/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
the sting likely uses mid-side widening techniques found in many daw plugins these days. And its probably being helped by room effects - especially if the speakers, as many tv's do, are pointed, or partly pointed, back away from the listening area. Bose did this in the 70's (maybe 60's) and since, with their popular direct/reflecting design. as others have pointed out, such widening production techniques have uncertain spatial results and can make things sound awful in some listening situation (like a mono speaker on a tv). The same is more or less true of the speaker technique - bigger sound but coloration effects are very likely. jim On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 7:09 AM, Richard Dobson richarddob...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Re odd things heard: is anyone here a regular watcher of The Big Bang Theory show (E4, and on various cable channels)? There is a standard sting (a sort of semi-pitched noise cluster cum whoosh sort of thing, little more than a second in length) used to transition from one scene to the next. My stereo TV (full HD but otherwise cheap 32 LCD type) is in the corner of my lounge, and is in general not notable at all for significant stereo effects, much less anything more immersive. Obviously, the built-in speakers (a generous 2 * 6W) are the typical small tinny things. However, that sting, fleeting as it is, seems to produce a significant amount of pseudo-surround, very much ~not~ localised to the TV, such that every time it is really rather surprising. One day I will have to record and analyse it, but I haven't got around to that yet. Does anyone have any idea if this is just a random emergent feature of the sound (TV or room artifact), or has that effect been designed into it in some discernible way? Richard Dobson .. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. __**_ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursoundhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Jim Moses Technical Director/Lecturer Brown University Music Department and M.E.M.E. (Multimedia and Electronic Music Experiments) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20120807/16525e55/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
My TV is just set to plain stereo, doesn't appear to have any other options such as SRS anyway. Unfortunately, moving the TV to another location is not a trivial operation. It is however hooked up to my stereo hifi (slightly more favourably positioned!), and the next obvious thing is to audition an episode on those. BTW: I was delighted to see an advert for Derby University in between episodes (on E4). Interesting scheduling - but I am not sure what message it sends! Richard Dobson On 07/08/2012 12:29, Peter Lennox wrote: Sounds to me like a cross-talk cancelling thing; with decorrelated material (reverb, sometimes crowd noise) it can produce startling surround effects. If this were the case, you should find that it occurs for some listening positions more than others (TVs with these algorithmns built in usually produce about 3 lobes - dead ahead and either side, about 30-40 degrees off the centre line. If you have a look at the audio settings, you'll probably find that the option for surround (is it SRS or something?- I forget) is selected - and if you changed to straight stereo, the effect should disappear. It doesn't usually work that well in a corner, and should be more pronounced if you brought the telly away from close-by reflective surfaces. The effect can be quite pleasing, but sometimes is disconcerting. Cheers ppl ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
Good idea to take line out to some movable speakers; I'll be interested to know what you find out. I didn't know about the adverts, but placing one next to Big Bang is great - good, nerdy image! Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology University of Derby, UK tel: 01332 593155 e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk -Original Message- From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Richard Dobson Sent: 07 August 2012 12:47 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ? My TV is just set to plain stereo, doesn't appear to have any other options such as SRS anyway. Unfortunately, moving the TV to another location is not a trivial operation. It is however hooked up to my stereo hifi (slightly more favourably positioned!), and the next obvious thing is to audition an episode on those. BTW: I was delighted to see an advert for Derby University in between episodes (on E4). Interesting scheduling - but I am not sure what message it sends! Richard Dobson On 07/08/2012 12:29, Peter Lennox wrote: Sounds to me like a cross-talk cancelling thing; with decorrelated material (reverb, sometimes crowd noise) it can produce startling surround effects. If this were the case, you should find that it occurs for some listening positions more than others (TVs with these algorithmns built in usually produce about 3 lobes - dead ahead and either side, about 30-40 degrees off the centre line. If you have a look at the audio settings, you'll probably find that the option for surround (is it SRS or something?- I forget) is selected - and if you changed to straight stereo, the effect should disappear. It doesn't usually work that well in a corner, and should be more pronounced if you brought the telly away from close-by reflective surfaces. The effect can be quite pleasing, but sometimes is disconcerting. Cheers ppl ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
A little bit googling, and I think the man behind the YMO spatial imaging is Ryuichi Sakamoto. http://www.fodderstompf.com/MEMBERS/SESSION/albu.html scroll down a bit. Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Can anyone explain this ?
On 06/12/2012 01:49 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote: Ok so you might not get the same effect on the speakers you're using and maybe its not your taste in music (its not really mine either but...) several people have told me they do get this effect . On this track : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC80C-R9aiE a few seconds in there is a analogue bubbly sound that seems to spatialise itself to and from a point around 10 inches to the left of the speakers. It works on my laptop and a Imac (slightly less) and as I say several others have reported the same - though one or two people people do not get the effect at all. I havent tried it on normal hi fi speakers. Assuming you can hear this effect how do you think it can be recreated any ideas ??? can't listen to it right now, but the description reminds me of a bass slide heard on sting's mad about you (album the soul cages), right at the end of one chorus. on a tight speaker system with good impulse reproduction and not too much reverb in the room, it materializes almost 90° to the left. the simplest way to obtain the effect is to add some signal to the opposite speaker in inverse polarity. something similar can be done with a first order ambi panner and UHJ playback. sometimes (depending on content), the result will be surprising, but tricks like these tend to fail on arbitrary content. -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
