Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[dw]

On 28/12/2013 23:25, Aaron Heller wrote:

Dick Duda and Ralph Algazi gave a talk and demo at a San Francisco AES
meeting at Dolby Labs a few years ago.  At that time, they were recording
with a head-sized sphere with either 8 or 16 microphones around the
equator.  They imagined that 8 would be used for teleconferencing and 16
for music recording.

The headphones used a Polhemus tracker to determine orientation.  At low
frequencies, multiple mics were processed to produce the ear signals and at
high-frequencies (where spatial aliasing on the sphere becomes a
consideration) they simply selected the closest microphone to the each ear
location.  Then generic pinna filtering was applied to improve front-back
discrimination.  The immediate impression is the externalization and
solidity of the image.

There is some more recent material here:

http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/binaural/

Despite the pedigree, it is not the sexiest ewe in the flock, although 
it will turn a few heads..


The _binaural_ demos there don't work at all well for my ears, so I can 
see why they might want to try MTB.


Dick was very helpful to me, more than a decade ago.
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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[Stefan Schreiber]

Ralph Glasgal wrote:

I have always advocated using four speakers even when reproducing 2.0 files.  




Both the front and rear Ambiodipoles are controlled by RACE and I had been 
advising that the pairs be equidistant from the listening area.  One of my 
converts to Ambio, informed me that if you placed the rear pair much closer, 
about one fifth the distance to the fronts, that the sound was quite a bit more 
realistic sounding.  Sure enough it worked.  We call this RACE BEE for 
Recursive Ambiophonic Crosstalk Elimination/ Binaural Envelopment Effect.  It 
does seem to fit the descriptions in the literature from Griesinger and Toole 
as to what envelopment should sound like.  But this is an easy way to get it.  
This seems to be a novel (is there such a thing) psychoacoustic effect, likely 
related to the fact that in most hearing situations there are a lot of very 
very very early reflections forthcoming to ears with low correlation.  RACE at 
the rear insures that the rear
energy is not mono.  If you turn off RACE the effect disappears.




2.0 files represented via 4 speakers (in Ambiophonics): To obtain the 
sound/ambience from behind, are you extracting the reverb from the 
stereo file, or are you adding some hall response via IR convolution? 
(In the 2nd case: How do you determine which IR data has to be used?)


As I understand, you restore both early reflections and ambience. 
Therefore, you will probably use some IR data set. But how do you know 
which specific (hall/room) IR to apply?



Thanks,

Stefan
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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[Ralph Glasgal]

Ambiophonics Update

I have not been active in this group for awhile.   But I thought an update on 
Ambiophonic products and research is long overdue even if it has little to do 
with Ambisonics but a lot to do with surround 3D sound.

I have always advocated using four speakers even when reproducing 2.0 files.  
Both the front and rear Ambiodipoles are controlled by RACE and I had been 
advising that the pairs be equidistant from the listening area.  One of my 
converts to Ambio, informed me that if you placed the rear pair much closer, 
about one fifth the distance to the fronts, that the sound was quite a bit more 
realistic sounding.  Sure enough it worked.  We call this RACE BEE for 
Recursive Ambiophonic Crosstalk Elimination/ Binaural Envelopment Effect.  It 
does seem to fit the descriptions in the literature from Griesinger and Toole 
as to what envelopment should sound like.  But this is an easy way to get it.  
This seems to be a novel (is there such a thing) psychoacoustic effect, likely 
related to the fact that in most hearing situations there are a lot of very 
very very early reflections forthcoming to ears with low correlation.  RACE at 
the rear insures that the rear
 energy is not mono.  If you turn off RACE the effect disappears.  I am hoping 
that NYU will be studying this effect next semester.

NYU has already released one AES paper for presentation at the convention in 
Berlin on using RACE in a program called Ambidio to improve the sound in 
laptops.  There is also a thesis by Tsai-Yi Wu entitled "Listening with 
Realism: Sound Stage Extension for Laptop Speakers"  A quote from the abstract 
reads "Experimental results show that the average perceived stage width of 
Ambidio is approximately 3 times wider than conventional stereo through 
internal speakers, and 2 times wider than SRS iWOW.  Furthermore, Ambidio, also 
exceeds in the sound quality, immersion, and user preference among all trials. 
The measurements reveal that RACE produces a flatter response at the listener's 
eardrum than the other two."  The results with external speakers were even more 
lopsided.

NYU is also in possession of a PanAmbiophone and are testing 4.0 recordings 
made with it at Mannes with different size performing groups.  NYU will also be 
at the Forum Acousticum in September in Poland demonstrating some of these 3D 
concepts and products.  There is also an NYU YouTube you can try with game 
clips, Avatar, music, Pink Floyd, etc.

There are now Ambiophonic RACE apps for Androids, iPads, iPhones, and PCs, 
(many free) VST plugins, as well as the really cute and affordable miniambio 
from the Hong Kong professional sound equipment maker DSP4you.  One of their 
equalizers just got a rave review from Stereophile Magazine.

For a full circle of direct sound in the horizontal plane one just needs four 
speakers and two RACE programs running.  You never need center speakers.  Any 
4.0 pair derived from 5.1, 7.1, DTS, SACD, BD sources really works with great 
firm imaging at the 90 degree points.  Avatar is a great demo for this since it 
seems to have a wide rear stage and not just mono sound effects.  I can now 
also get a pretty full circle of sound from old SQ LPs which I think is a 
miracle.

If you ever want a demo or need to contact me it is better to use 
gmailto:glas...@ambiophonics.org  Remember this is a .org we don't sell 
anything, we are just a research charity.

Ralph Glasgal
http://www.ambiophonics.org/ 





On Sunday, December 22, 2013 6:39 PM, dw  wrote:
  
On 22/12/2013 22:24, Marc Lavallée wrote:
> Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:17:27 -0500,
> Len Moskowitz  a écrit :
>
>> The capture array of microphones pictured in their Rondo video seems
>> rudimentary. They're soliciting developers.
> More links:
> http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/binaural/motion_tracked_binaural_sound.html
> http://dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=7886
> http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=100070
>
> Interesting, but why 16 channels from 8 binaural pairs placed
> horizontally on a sphere or cylinder (without pinnas), instead of a 4
> channels B-format stream from a FOA microphone?

Don't know, but the geometry is about right to place any artifacts due 
to two adjacent microphones that are  tangential to the sound direction 
in an interesting place ( not unlike a a pinna response). Same plan I 
had for my original XTC filter... Dick is capable of such deviousness IMO!

>
> --
> Marc
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[Aaron Heller]

Dick Duda and Ralph Algazi gave a talk and demo at a San Francisco AES
meeting at Dolby Labs a few years ago.  At that time, they were recording
with a head-sized sphere with either 8 or 16 microphones around the
equator.  They imagined that 8 would be used for teleconferencing and 16
for music recording.

The headphones used a Polhemus tracker to determine orientation.  At low
frequencies, multiple mics were processed to produce the ear signals and at
high-frequencies (where spatial aliasing on the sphere becomes a
consideration) they simply selected the closest microphone to the each ear
location.  Then generic pinna filtering was applied to improve front-back
discrimination.  The immediate impression is the externalization and
solidity of the image.

There is some more recent material here:

   http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/binaural/

By the way, when Dick was at SRI, he occupied my current office or the one
next door.  At that time, he was working on vision for Shakey the robot,
and co-authored with Peter Hart the classic text _Pattern Classification
and Scene Analysis_.

Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA  US


On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 1:13 PM, dw  wrote:

> http://www.google.com/patents/US20040076301
>
>
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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[dw]

http://www.google.com/patents/US20040076301

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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[Augustine Leudar]

Probably to simulate ILDs and ITDs


On 22 December 2013 22:24, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:17:27 -0500,
> Len Moskowitz  a écrit :
>
> > The capture array of microphones pictured in their Rondo video seems
> > rudimentary. They're soliciting developers.
>
> More links:
> http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/binaural/motion_tracked_binaural_sound.html
> http://dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=7886
> http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=100070
>
> Interesting, but why 16 channels from 8 binaural pairs placed
> horizontally on a sphere or cylinder (without pinnas), instead of a 4
> channels B-format stream from a FOA microphone?
>
> --
> Marc
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>



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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[Marc Lavallée]

Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:25:36 +1100,
etienne deleflie  a écrit :
> where did you see the price advertised? (Cant see it on that page)
> 
> Etienne

http://www.rondomotion.com/
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/261641446/bring-your-headphones-to-life

--
Marc

> 
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Len Moskowitz
>  wrote:
> > These folks seem to be very close to offering a product:
> >
> >http://www.dysonics.com/tech.html
> >
> > That page has a bunch of links to papers related to the concept.
> >
> > They have an affordable ($60), rechargable, headphone-mounted
> > Bluetooth motion sensor for iPhone and a player app for non-DRM
> > protected music files. They're also targeting Android devices.
> >
> > Algazi and Duda are heavyweights. The company appears to be a
> > spin-off of U of California, Davis.
> >
> > The capture array of microphones pictured in their Rondo video seems
> > rudimentary. They're soliciting developers.
> >
> > As of this past Summer they had raised capital via a Kickstarter
> > campaign to fund their FCC compliance testing.
> >
> >
> > Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
> > Core Sound LLC
> > www.core-sound.com
> >
> > ___
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[etienne deleflie]

where did you see the price advertised? (Cant see it on that page)

Etienne

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Len Moskowitz
 wrote:
> These folks seem to be very close to offering a product:
>
>http://www.dysonics.com/tech.html
>
> That page has a bunch of links to papers related to the concept.
>
> They have an affordable ($60), rechargable, headphone-mounted Bluetooth
> motion sensor for iPhone and a player app for non-DRM protected music files.
> They're also targeting Android devices.
>
> Algazi and Duda are heavyweights. The company appears to be a spin-off of U
> of California, Davis.
>
> The capture array of microphones pictured in their Rondo video seems
> rudimentary. They're soliciting developers.
>
> As of this past Summer they had raised capital via a Kickstarter campaign to
> fund their FCC compliance testing.
>
>
> Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
> Core Sound LLC
> www.core-sound.com
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[dw]

On 22/12/2013 22:24, Marc Lavallée wrote:

Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:17:27 -0500,
Len Moskowitz  a écrit :


The capture array of microphones pictured in their Rondo video seems
rudimentary. They're soliciting developers.

More links:
http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/binaural/motion_tracked_binaural_sound.html
http://dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=7886
http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=100070

Interesting, but why 16 channels from 8 binaural pairs placed
horizontally on a sphere or cylinder (without pinnas), instead of a 4
channels B-format stream from a FOA microphone?


Don't know, but the geometry is about right to place any artifacts due 
to two adjacent microphones that are  tangential to the sound direction 
in an interesting place ( not unlike a a pinna response). Same plan I 
had for my original XTC filter... Dick is capable of such deviousness IMO!




--
Marc
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Re: [Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[Marc Lavallée]

Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:17:27 -0500,
Len Moskowitz  a écrit :

> The capture array of microphones pictured in their Rondo video seems 
> rudimentary. They're soliciting developers.

More links:
http://www.ece.ucdavis.edu/binaural/motion_tracked_binaural_sound.html
http://dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=7886
http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=100070

Interesting, but why 16 channels from 8 binaural pairs placed
horizontally on a sphere or cylinder (without pinnas), instead of a 4
channels B-format stream from a FOA microphone?

--
Marc
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[Sursound] Motion-Tracked Binaural

[Len Moskowitz]

These folks seem to be very close to offering a product:

   http://www.dysonics.com/tech.html

That page has a bunch of links to papers related to the concept.

They have an affordable ($60), rechargable, headphone-mounted Bluetooth 
motion sensor for iPhone and a player app for non-DRM protected music files. 
They're also targeting Android devices.


Algazi and Duda are heavyweights. The company appears to be a spin-off of U 
of California, Davis.


The capture array of microphones pictured in their Rondo video seems 
rudimentary. They're soliciting developers.


As of this past Summer they had raised capital via a Kickstarter campaign to 
fund their FCC compliance testing.



Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com

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