Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

PS Fons - very interesting about the occlusion effect - very good point !!

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> working
> > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
> > calibrated system, room treatment etc
>
> > I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> may
> > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
> > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> just
> > left with the HRTFs
>
> In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have
> a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
> this prevents externalisation.
>
> Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is changed
> by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much stronger
> when you close the ear canal.
>
> It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this
> requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
> the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
> systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm involved).
>
> That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
> among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
> influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
> two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
> some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening.
> It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses
> are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not,
> even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the
> 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-)
>
> The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed
> by normal equalisation or as part of the design.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Brilliant Brian tx

On Wednesday, 24 June 2020, Brian KATZ 
wrote:

> "it would interesting to see if there are any papers/listening
> tests which have
> tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
> there any ?"
>
> Here is at lest 1 study that I am familiar with:
>
> D. Schönstein, L. Ferré, and B. Katz, “Comparison of headphones and
> equalization for virtual auditory source localization,” in Acoustics’08. 9e
> Congres Français d’Acoustique of the SFA. Paru dans : JASA, Vol 123, n°5,
> (Paris), pp. 1–5, 2008, (http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acoustics2008/
> cd1/data/articles/001080.pdf).
>
> --
> Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS
> Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique – Musique
> Sorbonne Université, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond ∂'Alembert
> http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz
>
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> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Brian KATZ]

"it would interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests 
which have
tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
there any ?"

Here is at lest 1 study that I am familiar with:

D. Schönstein, L. Ferré, and B. Katz, “Comparison of headphones and 
equalization for virtual auditory source localization,” in Acoustics’08. 9e 
Congres Français d’Acoustique of the SFA. Paru dans : JASA, Vol 123, n°5, 
(Paris), pp. 1–5, 2008, 
(http://webistem.com/acoustics2008/acoustics2008/cd1/data/articles/001080.pdf).

--
Brian FG Katz, Research Director, CNRS
Groupe Lutheries - Acoustique – Musique
Sorbonne Université, CNRS, UMR 7190, Institut Jean Le Rond ∂'Alembert 
http://www.dalembert.upmc.fr/home/katz

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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Thanks Hannes I'll give that a read. Im beginning to feel that like stereo
it's probably best to reference on a wide range of headphones, from the
super accurate phase coherant, to the apple earbuds 80% will listen on as a
reference.

On Tuesday, 23 June 2020, Hannes Helmholz 
wrote:

> I found this paper quite a while ago [1]. I suppose it tries to answer
> exactly the question you have.
>
> However, I find it difficult to judge whether the employed way of
> simulating different sets of headphones via impulse responses is really
> "transparent" there.
> Even if done to the best of technical ability, I doubt that the
> simulation can provide an accurate representation of another headphones'
> ear signals in the subjects ears (also since HRTFs an HRIRs of a dummy
> head were used). On a perceptual level however, they state that the
> simulation works okay by referencing former studies.
>
> As other people also mentioned, occlusion (according to open / closed
> back headphones / earbuds) has a big influence on perceived attributes
> of binaural reproduction. This is one point which I think is very
> difficult or even impossible to simulate without actually employing the
> individual headsets (I imagine it requires extensive technical effort
> and even more individual tuning for each subject).
>
> However, learning about the influence of different (low cost) headphone
> magnitude spectra is of course valuable. :)
>
> [1] P. Gutierrez-Parera and J. J. Lopez, “Influence of the quality of
> Consumer Headphones in the Perception of Spatial Audio,” Appl. Sci.,
> vol. 6, no. 5, pp. 1–18, 2016, doi: 10.3390/app6040117.
> https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/6/4/117/pdf
>
> Best,
> /Hannes
>
> On 2020-06-23 22:23, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > "The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> > that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> > is not the case. "
> >
> > Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your
> > Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my
> > pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is
> for
> > being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito
> has
> > when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the
> same
> > position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it
> would
> > interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have
> > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
> > there any ?
> >
> > On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> >>
> >>> I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> >> working
> >>> on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I
> have a
> >>> calibrated system, room treatment etc
> >>
> >>> I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> >>> that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> >> may
> >>> not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna
> filtering
> >>> seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> >>> might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> >> just
> >>> left with the HRTFs
> >>
> >> In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have
> >> a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
> >> this prevents externalisation.
> >>
> >> Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is
> changed
> >> by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much
> stronger
> >> when you close the ear canal.
> >>
> >> It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this
> >> requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
> >> the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
> >> systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm
> involved).
> >>
> >> That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
> >> among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
> >> influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
> >> two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
> >> some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening.
> >> It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses
> >> are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not,
> >> even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the
> >> 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-)
> >>
> >> The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> >> to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> >> that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> >> is not the case. What 

Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Steve
Tx for the reply. No the headphones are not equalised for my pinnae in fact
not quite sure what you mean by that, iI am talking about using generic
hrtfs. It is also possible to localise static objects. Something that close
to the ear would probably fall firmly within what is called "the cone of
confusion" but that's a location itself albeit blurry. Also important to
remember I am asking about suitable headphones for monitoring not
necessarily the best binaural experience. So the headphones that would
translate best to whatever most people would listen on. In the studio that
used to be ns10s but now is probably genelec. However the concept is the
same, which headphones are best to produce binaural on yo successfully
translate to the widest range of headphones, preferably without losing
quality for those with hi end headphones. In the mastering world this is
generally something like bowers and Wilkins speakers.

On Tuesday, 23 June 2020, Steven Boardman  wrote:

> If your headphones are equalised for your pinnae, then this is surely
> negated?
> As you aren't moving your headphones, then it shouldn't be a problem, as
> they are on axis and your hrtf will remain static, (or non existent with
> eq).
> I can anecdotally confirm what Fons mentioned.
> I have many different flavours of earbuds,  closed and open headphones, and
> by far the best outer head binaural experience, is with my open back ones.
> This is without custom eq for my ears, but with a generic flattening eq,
> which really improves the effect.
> I can imagine it would improve massively using  hrtf for my own ears,
> convolved with eq to flatten the response of both my pinnae and
> headphones..
>
> Best
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 21:24 Augustine Leudar, 
> wrote:
>
> > "The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> > that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> > is not the case. "
> >
> > Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your
> > Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my
> > pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is
> for
> > being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito
> has
> > when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the
> same
> > position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it
> would
> > interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have
> > tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
> > there any ?
> >
> > On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen 
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > >
> > > > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> > > working
> > > > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I
> > have a
> > > > calibrated system, room treatment etc
> > >
> > > > I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> > > > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear
> headphones
> > > may
> > > > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna
> > filtering
> > > > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking
> earbuds
> > > > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you
> are
> > > just
> > > > left with the HRTFs
> > >
> > > In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds
> have
> > > a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
> > > this prevents externalisation.
> > >
> > > Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is
> changed
> > > by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much
> > stronger
> > > when you close the ear canal.
> > >
> > > It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but
> this
> > > requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
> > > the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
> > > systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm
> > involved).
> > >
> > > That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
> > > among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
> > > influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
> > > two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
> > > some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening.
> > > It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses
> > > are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not,
> > > even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the
> > > 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-)
> > >
> > > The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> > > to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> > 

Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Hannes Helmholz]

I found this paper quite a while ago [1]. I suppose it tries to answer
exactly the question you have.

However, I find it difficult to judge whether the employed way of
simulating different sets of headphones via impulse responses is really
"transparent" there.
Even if done to the best of technical ability, I doubt that the
simulation can provide an accurate representation of another headphones'
ear signals in the subjects ears (also since HRTFs an HRIRs of a dummy
head were used). On a perceptual level however, they state that the
simulation works okay by referencing former studies.

As other people also mentioned, occlusion (according to open / closed
back headphones / earbuds) has a big influence on perceived attributes
of binaural reproduction. This is one point which I think is very
difficult or even impossible to simulate without actually employing the
individual headsets (I imagine it requires extensive technical effort
and even more individual tuning for each subject).

However, learning about the influence of different (low cost) headphone
magnitude spectra is of course valuable. :)

[1] P. Gutierrez-Parera and J. J. Lopez, “Influence of the quality of
Consumer Headphones in the Perception of Spatial Audio,” Appl. Sci.,
vol. 6, no. 5, pp. 1–18, 2016, doi: 10.3390/app6040117.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/6/4/117/pdf

Best,
/Hannes

On 2020-06-23 22:23, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> "The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> is not the case. "
> 
> Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your
> Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my
> pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is for
> being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito has
> when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the same
> position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it would
> interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have
> tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
> there any ?
> 
> On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>>
>>> I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
>> working
>>> on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
>>> calibrated system, room treatment etc
>>
>>> I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
>>> that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
>> may
>>> not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
>>> seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
>>> might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
>> just
>>> left with the HRTFs
>>
>> In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have
>> a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
>> this prevents externalisation.
>>
>> Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is changed
>> by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much stronger
>> when you close the ear canal.
>>
>> It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this
>> requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
>> the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
>> systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm involved).
>>
>> That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
>> among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
>> influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
>> two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
>> some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening.
>> It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses
>> are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not,
>> even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the
>> 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-)
>>
>> The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
>> to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
>> that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
>> is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed
>> by normal equalisation or as part of the design.
>>
>> Ciao,
>>
>> --
>> FA
>>
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
> 
> 

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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

That's interesting Hector. Generally from what I remember you have
migrating frequency notches/peaks above 10khz that go up or down depending
on sound source elevation and this is caused by the direction dependant
filtering caused by the pinnae. However there was an experiment that low
passed filtered sounds beneath 5khz and people did not lose accuracy of
elevation localisation perception so maybe something else going on too , I
think it was this paper: Martens WL. Directional Hearing on the Frontal
Plane: Necessary and Sufficient Spectral Cues. North-western University,
Evanston, Illinois; 1991.

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 23:56, Hector Centeno  wrote:

> That's true. On the other hand, with the recordings I make using over the
> ear mics I do get a strong height effect (e.g. airplanes flying above or
> birds calling from trees).
>
> On Fri., Jun. 19, 2020, 6:39 p.m. Augustine Leudar, <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi Hector - strictly speaking for it to be a binaural recording it would
> > have to be done in-ear, or in a dummy heads ear,  otherwise you would
> only
> > have ILDs and ITDs and not the height information that is caused by the
> > direction dependant filtering of the pinna (and to some extent
> shoulders) .
> > However here I am creating binaural soundscape sin a DAW using a VST
> > binaural panner rather than recordings .
> >
> > On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 23:20, Hector Centeno  wrote:
> >
> > > I'm wondering if it is the case that if the ambisonic recording is made
> > > with in-ear microphones then earbuds would make more sense, and if it's
> > > done with microphones outside the ear (clipped on the sides of the head
> > or
> > > above the ear) then over-the-ear headphones would work. I record using
> > > microphones over the ear and I find that playback using closed back
> > > over-the-ear headphones works the best.
> > >
> > > Hector
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:13 PM Augustine Leudar <
> > > augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello all,
> > > > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> > > working
> > > > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I
> > have a
> > > > calibrated system, room treatment etc I have a pair of Sennheiser
> > HD600s
> > > > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear
> headphones
> > > may
> > > > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna
> > filtering
> > > > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking
> earbuds
> > > > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you
> are
> > > just
> > > > left with the HRTFs - then again like mastering it depends somewhat
> on
> > > what
> > > > your target audience will be using mostly. Has anyone given any
> thought
> > > to
> > > > this and what do you think are the most suitable headphones for
> > binaural
> > > > work?
> > > > all the beat
> > > > Augustine
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> > > > Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> > > > +44(0)7555784775
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> > > > >
> > > > ___
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> here,
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > Business website: www.magikdoor.net
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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

"The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
is not the case. "

Well except the headphones do have a direction if they are outside your
Pinnae - in the case of my HD6000s the driver is about 2 cm outside my
pinnae in the middle of my ear so they would have whatever the HRTF is for
being close to / next to your ear, in the same way, I guess a mosquito has
when it flies close to your ear can be localised as it flies past the same
position, admittedly that is a moving object unlike headphones ... it would
interesting to see if there are any papers/listening tests which have
tested lovcalisation with HRTFs and different types of headphones - are
there any ?

On Sat, 20 Jun 2020 at 09:26, Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
> > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> working
> > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
> > calibrated system, room treatment etc
>
> > I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> may
> > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
> > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> just
> > left with the HRTFs
>
> In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have
> a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that
> this prevents externalisation.
>
> Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is changed
> by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much stronger
> when you close the ear canal.
>
> It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this
> requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within
> the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward
> systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm involved).
>
> That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even
> among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
> influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
> two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
> some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening.
> It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses
> are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not,
> even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the
> 'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-)
>
> The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
> to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
> that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
> is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed
> by normal equalisation or as part of the design.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
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>


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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:12:38PM +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote:

> I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards working
> on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
> calibrated system, room treatment etc 

> I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones may
> not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
> seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are just
> left with the HRTFs

In may experience binaural works best with open headphones. Earbuds have
a very strong occlusion effect, and there is experimental evidence that 
this prevents externalisation.

Occlusion means that the acoustic impedance as seen by the ear is changed
by being in a closed volume. It's why you hear your own voice much stronger
when you close the ear canal. 

It is possible to remove occlusion even with closed headphones, but this
requires active systems. Noise cancellation using feedback from within 
the headphone will do this to some degree as a side effect. Feedforward 
systems don't. This is an area of active research (in which I'm involved).

That said, there's a lot of difference in binaural performance even 
among high quality open headphones. One factor that seems to have an
influence is how well the phase/delay response is matched between the
two sides. For some headphones this is intentionally 'randomised',
some people seem to prefer that for normal (non-binaural) listening.
It's quite simple to test: listen to a mono signal. If the responses
are well matched you should get a solid image dead center. If not,
even a mono signal will be somewhat 'diffuse'. This is called the
'Tonmeister test' in some circles :-)

The argument that open headphones would add a second 'pinna response'
to a binaural signal doesn't hold. The whole point of the pinnae is
that the response depends on direction, and with headphones that
is not the case. What remains is a fixed effect that can be removed
by normal equalisation or as part of the design.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Peter P.]

* Hector Centeno  [2020-06-20 00:56]:
> That's true. On the other hand, with the recordings I make using over the
> ear mics I do get a strong height effect (e.g. airplanes flying above or
> birds calling from trees).
Sometimes I feel we are localizing these sounds "up" because of what
they signify, not how they were recorded. YMMV though. 
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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Hector Centeno]

That's true. On the other hand, with the recordings I make using over the
ear mics I do get a strong height effect (e.g. airplanes flying above or
birds calling from trees).

On Fri., Jun. 19, 2020, 6:39 p.m. Augustine Leudar, <
augustineleu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Hector - strictly speaking for it to be a binaural recording it would
> have to be done in-ear, or in a dummy heads ear,  otherwise you would only
> have ILDs and ITDs and not the height information that is caused by the
> direction dependant filtering of the pinna (and to some extent shoulders) .
> However here I am creating binaural soundscape sin a DAW using a VST
> binaural panner rather than recordings .
>
> On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 23:20, Hector Centeno  wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering if it is the case that if the ambisonic recording is made
> > with in-ear microphones then earbuds would make more sense, and if it's
> > done with microphones outside the ear (clipped on the sides of the head
> or
> > above the ear) then over-the-ear headphones would work. I record using
> > microphones over the ear and I find that playback using closed back
> > over-the-ear headphones works the best.
> >
> > Hector
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:13 PM Augustine Leudar <
> > augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hello all,
> > > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> > working
> > > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I
> have a
> > > calibrated system, room treatment etc I have a pair of Sennheiser
> HD600s
> > > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> > may
> > > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna
> filtering
> > > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> > > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> > just
> > > left with the HRTFs - then again like mastering it depends somewhat on
> > what
> > > your target audience will be using mostly. Has anyone given any thought
> > to
> > > this and what do you think are the most suitable headphones for
> binaural
> > > work?
> > > all the beat
> > > Augustine
> > >
> > > --
> > > Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> > > Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> > > +44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Hector - strictly speaking for it to be a binaural recording it would
have to be done in-ear, or in a dummy heads ear,  otherwise you would only
have ILDs and ITDs and not the height information that is caused by the
direction dependant filtering of the pinna (and to some extent shoulders) .
However here I am creating binaural soundscape sin a DAW using a VST
binaural panner rather than recordings .

On Fri, 19 Jun 2020 at 23:20, Hector Centeno  wrote:

> I'm wondering if it is the case that if the ambisonic recording is made
> with in-ear microphones then earbuds would make more sense, and if it's
> done with microphones outside the ear (clipped on the sides of the head or
> above the ear) then over-the-ear headphones would work. I record using
> microphones over the ear and I find that playback using closed back
> over-the-ear headphones works the best.
>
> Hector
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:13 PM Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> > I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards
> working
> > on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
> > calibrated system, room treatment etc I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> > that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones
> may
> > not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
> > seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> > might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are
> just
> > left with the HRTFs - then again like mastering it depends somewhat on
> what
> > your target audience will be using mostly. Has anyone given any thought
> to
> > this and what do you think are the most suitable headphones for binaural
> > work?
> > all the beat
> > Augustine
> >
> > --
> > Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> > Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> > +44(0)7555784775
> > -- next part --
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> >
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200619/a9bf4d71/attachment.html
> > >
> > ___
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> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
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Re: [Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Hector Centeno]

I'm wondering if it is the case that if the ambisonic recording is made
with in-ear microphones then earbuds would make more sense, and if it's
done with microphones outside the ear (clipped on the sides of the head or
above the ear) then over-the-ear headphones would work. I record using
microphones over the ear and I find that playback using closed back
over-the-ear headphones works the best.

Hector


On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 6:13 PM Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Hello all,
> I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards working
> on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
> calibrated system, room treatment etc I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
> that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones may
> not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
> seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
> might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are just
> left with the HRTFs - then again like mastering it depends somewhat on what
> your target audience will be using mostly. Has anyone given any thought to
> this and what do you think are the most suitable headphones for binaural
> work?
> all the beat
> Augustine
>
> --
> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20200619/a9bf4d71/attachment.html
> >
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[Sursound] Suitable headphones for monitoring binaural compositions

[Augustine Leudar]

Hello all,
I normally do installation work but lockdown has steered me towards working
on binaural work that can be streamed. Obviously, with speakers, I have a
calibrated system, room treatment etc I have a pair of Sennheiser HD600s
that I use but it occurs to me that these kinds of over-ear headphones may
not be best suited for binaural work as there may be some pinna filtering
seeing as the driver is as large as my pinna, so I was thinking earbuds
might be more suitable as they bypass the pinna altogether and you are just
left with the HRTFs - then again like mastering it depends somewhat on what
your target audience will be using mostly. Has anyone given any thought to
this and what do you think are the most suitable headphones for binaural
work?
all the beat
Augustine

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