Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound
Ralph Glasgal wrote: It is virtually impossible to get?360 degrees (including height) via earphones. Add head tracking and it's possible. Some folks have been doing that well for quite some time. Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound
Head tracking is meant to prevent the image from rotating when one moves their head. Normally this type of head tracker only works for the frontal stage angle. But,indeed, you can also use a head postion detector to change the ILD, ITD, and pinna pattern of the signal being listened to as in virtual reality training systems to produce any sound source angle but I don't think this is the topic we are addressing here. If you are listening to a two channel binaural recording via earphones that interfere with the pinna it is unlikely that you will avoid both internalization and poor localization to the sides or rear. The point I am trying to make however, is that the goal of 360 localization is much easier to attain via loudspeakers, be they Ambisonic, Ambiophonic, or WFS with the advantage that 180 degree Ambiophonics is compatible with ordinary two channel media and most microphone arrangements. Ralph Glasgal www.ambiophonics.org From: Len Moskowitz lenmoskow...@optonline.net To: sursound@music.vt.edu Sent: Mon, March 14, 2011 1:23:27 PM Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound Ralph Glasgal wrote: It is virtually impossible to get?360 degrees (including height) via earphones. Add head tracking and it's possible. Some folks have been doing that well for quite some time. Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110314/494c5f88/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound
I realize that the discussion is about perfection. But in practice my experience with an Oscar(Sennheiser dummy head) played back through head phones was that things like up and behind off to one side a bit, all around in short, worked really well, on headphones and with the generic pinnae of the dummy. Of course, the clicker signal that they were using is one of the more easily localized things. (Good for dog training too). Still, in musical terms, where absolutely precisely correct location is not really important(you are not trying to shoot down the brass band up and in the rear), it seems to me that this will really work quite well. I know that in theory there are problems. But in practice the clicks were heard where they should have been heard. The way the demo worked was that they would click while on had one's eyes shut. Then one pointed at the direction that the click seemed to come from. Then one opened one's eyes and looked at where the clicker actually was relative to Oscar. It was uncanny how well it worked. OK so this is not hard science with measurement of localization down to a few degrees. But in general terms, it was a goodie. Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound
Hello, I'm one of those folks, although I hope I'm doing it well. I've been doing some initial tests for an installation that uses ambisonic recordings done with a tetrahedral mic. The B-format signal is then decoded and played over headphones using virtual speakers panned binaurally. I'm also adding a head-tracking device consisting of an iPod Touch running an app that sends the gyroscope orientation to a Max/MSP patch for altering the pitch and yaw of the B-format signal before it's decoded. The localization is far from perfect and not as accurate as with pure binaural recordings but I'm very happy with the results. Also I have yet to further calibrate the mic which will very likely improve the image. Cheers, Hector On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Len Moskowitz lenmoskow...@optonline.net wrote: Ralph Glasgal wrote: It is virtually impossible to get?360 degrees (including height) via earphones. Add head tracking and it's possible. Some folks have been doing that well for quite some time. Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
Sorry I am a little behind on the latest threads. Bob Carver's Sonic Hologram was a pioneering attempt at crosstalk cancelation. Considering the processors he had to work with, is amzing that it works as well as it did. He once told me that the little box version was the best seller he ever had. After hearing an Ambiophonic demonstration he decided to again include the sonic holography feature in his Sunfire home theater products. But it had the following difficulties. It was not recursive so that it only cancelled the initial crosstalk and not the next crosstalk caused by the first cancellation and so on. It had almost no adjustments for speaker angle and the box did not allow for the speakers to be placed much closer together where the results would have been much better especially for the pinna. It also did cancellation at frequencies where there was no crosstalk to cancel. The result was that the sweet area was small and many users could not really get it working with their speakers and rooms. The Lexicon Panorama mode had similar problems. Ralph Glasgal www.ambiophonics.org From: Robert Greene gre...@math.ucla.edu To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 1:15:40 PM Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110313/35e6a04b/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
There are several VST plugins listed on the Ambiophonics home page. Some free and some not. There are also some transcoders that run under Java and a file that you can use in Audiomulch or probably many other DAWs if you are good at this. There is also the $150 box from Hong Kong. etc. Ralph Glasgal www.ambiophonics.org From: Michael Graves mgra...@mstvp.com To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 5:16:53 PM Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Michael Graves mgravesatmstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mgra...@mstvp.onsip.com skype mjgraves Twitter mjgraves ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110313/49fe8047/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
Although Prof. Choueiri and I have collaborated over the years our goals and end results are now somewhat divergent. RACE is designed to be adjustble by the end user, to have as large a listening area as possible, and to work well with existing recordings like LPs, CDs, MP3, movies, video etc. It is also works well with virtually any speaker in any room and can even work with laptops and PC speakers. But RACE can normally only deliver a maximum Interaural Level Difference of about 10 dB. It does deliver the full range of ITD up to 700 microseconds. But this is more than enough for music and movies which seldom have values exceeding these and allows full localization at the extreme sides. Also four speaker RACE can provide a full circle of direct sound for movies such as Avatar or any 4.0 equivalent medium. RACE is also in the public domain with products available from several vendors and more on the way. The sound from a left or right RACE speaker is not flat in an RMS measurement sense since the sum of the direct sound and all the later cancellation signals may seem to add up in ways strange to a meter. BACCH is RMS flat. At the listening position, the RACE response is, of course, flat. (Stereo has the reverse problem, the sound at each speaker is flat, but at the listening position there is treble crosstalk combing and a 3dB power boost for bass center sounds) You should all go to Princeton and hear True Stereo. It is truly amazing. In contrast to RACE, BACCH can deliver ILDs of up to 20 dB and this makes it possible to hear sounds in close proximity to the ears from just two very directional frontal speakers. That is, you can hear whispering at ones ear or the bee buzzing around ones head and, if things are really perfect, even behind the head. But such a feat requires special recordings and very stringent attention to detail. It normally does nothing serious beyond RACE for ordinary recordings or movies that have no proximity sound effects. For best results one must use a dummy head microphone at the listening position and get an impulse response which can be used with the basic BACCH algorthim for a particular speaker type, angle and room. There are then no adjustments and you must have a convolver available to use any of these custom filters. You also cannot move forward or back from the speakers or even stand up but there is a multi-fixed seat version now possible. Finally, in Ambiophonics, ambience comes either from hall IR responses via surround speakers or reproduced by a rear crosstalk cancelled speaker pair being fed by a rear recorded pair as in 5.1. The Princeton approach is to deliver ambience only via the front speakers. This may or may not prove feasible. Ralph Glasgal www.ambiophonics.org From: Peter Lennox p.len...@derby.ac.uk To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 5:22:31 PM Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction Is it so different from Ralph Glasgal's ambiophonic cross-talk cancelling? Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 w: http://sparg.derby.ac.uk/SPARG/Staff_PLX.asp From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Graves [mgra...@mstvp.com] Sent: 24 February 2011 22:16 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
I can confirm the small sweet spot of the Carver device. (or encoding that way). One really has to measure quite exactly where the speakers are and where one is one's self. But it is pretty cool when it is all dialed in, in spite of the things Ralph (correctly) notes. I still have one around and I put it up every once in a while. I recall the plastic floppy(small LP) disc insert in Audio, where I first heard it. I shall never forget my first listen to Dry Bones, with sounds all over the place. What a riot! I and my friends ran out and bought up a whole lot of copies of that issue of Audio to get some extras of the disc insert. Eventually I got the device itself. But that first listen to Dry Bones remains really something. Ah the good old days Robert On Sun, 13 Mar 2011, Ralph Glasgal wrote: Sorry I am a little behind on the latest threads. Bob Carver's Sonic Hologram was a pioneering attempt at crosstalk cancelation. Considering the processors he had to work with, is amzing that it works as well as it did. He once told me that the little box version was the best seller he ever had. After hearing an Ambiophonic demonstration he decided to again include the sonic holography feature in his Sunfire home theater products. But it had the following difficulties. It was not recursive so that it only cancelled the initial crosstalk and not the next crosstalk caused by the first cancellation and so on. It had almost no adjustments for speaker angle and the box did not allow for the speakers to be placed much closer together where the results would have been much better especially for the pinna. It also did cancellation at frequencies where there was no crosstalk to cancel. The result was that the sweet area was small and many users could not really get it working with their speakers and rooms. The Lexicon Panorama mode had similar problems. Ralph Glasgal www.ambiophonics.org From: Robert Greene gre...@math.ucla.edu To: Surround Sound discussion group sursound@music.vt.edu Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 1:15:40 PM Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110313/35e6a04b/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
I forgot to mention that is also practical if you keep your loudspeakers at close spacing (like 10deg) rather than a stereo setup, which gives you a better performance for a wider frequency range, a technique that Kirkeby and Nelson patented as the stereo-dipole. Regards, Archontis On 2/25/11 12:06 PM, Archontis Politis wrote: Hi Junfeng, For theory and to understand the problem you should have a look at the references mentioned before, I attach the titles of some key studies: B. S. Atal and M. R. Schroeder (1962) Apparent sound source translator, U.S. Patent, 3236949. P. Damaske (1971) Head-Related Two-Channel Stereophony with Loudspeaker Reproduction. Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, vol. 50, pp. 1109-1115. N. Sakamoto, T. Gotoh, T. Kogure and M. Shimbo (1982) Controlling Sound-Image Localization in Stereophonic Reproduction: Part II Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, vol. 30, pp. 719-722. J. Köring and A. Schmitz (1993) Simplifying Cancellation of Cross-Talk for playback of Head- Related Recordings in a 2-Speaker System Acustica, vol. 79, pp. 221-232. P. A. Nelson, O. Kirkeby, T. Takeuchi, and H. Hamada (1997) Sound fields for the production of virtual acoustic images Journal of Sound and Vibration, vol. 204, pp. 386-396. W. G. Gardner (1998) 3-D audio using loudspeakers. Boston: Kluwer Academic Publishers. D. B. Ward and G. W. Elko (2000) “A new robust system for 3D audio using loudspeakers”, in Proceedings 2000 IEEE International Conference on Acoustics, Speech and Signal Processing, vol. 2, pp. 781-784. For the implementation I would say that the you can directly apply the algorithm proposed by Kirkeby-Nelson for the inversion of your measured crosstalk paths, which works quite well and you can also tune it to some extent to your specific conditions by use of the regularisation parameter: O. Kirkeby, P. A. Nelson, H. Hamada, and F. Orduna Bustamante (1998a) Fast deconvolution of multichannel systems using regularization IEEE Transactions on Speech and Audio Processing, vol. 6, pp. 189-94. Especially in low-RT or anechoic conditions you should get very good results either with synthesised or recorded binaural material. Beware of strong reflections though, if you have them you have to correct these too.. Regards, Archontis On 2/24/11 10:11 AM, Junfeng Li wrote: Hello, all friends, Is anyone working on binaural sound reproduction using loudspeakers? To reproduce 3D sound using loudspeaker, cross-talk cancellation is needed, as I know. Does anyone know which the most-advanced cross-talk cancellation technique/algorithm? Does anyone have a sample program (source code) of binaural reproduction using loudspeaker, which can share with me? Great appreciation to all you. Best regards, Junfeng -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110224/12e28f66/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
PLEASE NOTE that I predate Keele on this barrier idea by quite a few years. I was being modest and not mentioning myself because the idea of a physical barrier is so trivial that it ought to be beneath anyone's dignity to accept credit for it. But if credit were to be assigned(and in the crazy world of audio anything can happen) , then I point out that I wrote in detail about physical barrier to enhance stereo in the pages of The Absolute Sound many years before Keele's article. I suppose Keele's did not know about this or he would have mentioned it. But that does not mean it did not happen. It did happen. This was in a published letter to TAS before I had become a writer for them. I described in considerable detail the effects of it and recommmended to people to try it. Not exactly Nobel Prize time. But priority is priority. Wrong attributions in audio seem never to die. I was definitely first with the most men, as NBF said, on this subject. Or at least I was ahead of Keele! (It is hard to believe that say Blumlein did not try this-- the idea is so simple.) It does not amount to much, but it is mine or at least it is mine before Keele and before Glasgal Robert PS Audio can be really embarrassing. When the Quad 63 appeared, reviewers rushed to express appreciation and no wonder. That was fine. What was not fine is that many of them described the genius of Peter Walker in thinking up the idea that a virtual point source could be constructed via rings and time delays. Huygens must have turned in his grave. When I wrote up the speaker, I could not resist spending a good bit of time and space on how the basic idea dated back to 1690(actually earlier but publication was a bit delayed). Forget about worrying about Creationism and so on. One could worry that people writing on technical material are in many instances ignorant of the most basic aspects of scientific history. Walker was an excellent designer and it was no easy task to bring the Quad 63 to commercial reality. But the idea that he discovered virtual source synthesis makes about as much sense as saying that Lindberg discovered France. On Fri, 25 Feb 2011, Eero Aro wrote: Robert Greene wrote: I think this idea was invented by Christian Huygens and Young and Fresnel. Once one knows that sound is a wave phenomenon, there is nothing left to invent--except the details of how the sound goes around the head. Practical implementation especially in the analogue world is another story! I throw in one more name from a later date, 1989. Don Keele wrote in his AES paper about a physical baffle between the two loudspeakers. The baffle almost reached the nose of the listener. Eero Aro ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
[Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
Hello, all friends, Is anyone working on binaural sound reproduction using loudspeakers? To reproduce 3D sound using loudspeaker, cross-talk cancellation is needed, as I know. Does anyone know which the most-advanced cross-talk cancellation technique/algorithm? Does anyone have a sample program (source code) of binaural reproduction using loudspeaker, which can share with me? Great appreciation to all you. Best regards, Junfeng -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110224/12e28f66/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
I just checked out the audio demo on your site. The bee and screaming girl are hilarious! On Feb 24, 2011, at 12:11 AM, Junfeng Li wrote: Hello, all friends, Is anyone working on binaural sound reproduction using loudspeakers? To reproduce 3D sound using loudspeaker, cross-talk cancellation is needed, as I know. Does anyone know which the most-advanced cross-talk cancellation technique/algorithm? Does anyone have a sample program (source code) of binaural reproduction using loudspeaker, which can share with me? Great appreciation to all you. Best regards, Junfeng -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110224/12e28f66/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound Danny McCarty Monolith Media, Inc. 4183 Summit View Hood River, Or 97031 415-331-7628 541-399-0089 Cell http://www.monolithmedia.net/ http://www.danielmccarty.com/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
Hi, There is Edgar Choueiri's work: http://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/BACCH_intro.html Deep On 02/24/2011 07:11 PM, Junfeng Li wrote: Hello, all friends, Is anyone working on binaural sound reproduction using loudspeakers? To reproduce 3D sound using loudspeaker, cross-talk cancellation is needed, as I know. Does anyone know which the most-advanced cross-talk cancellation technique/algorithm? Does anyone have a sample program (source code) of binaural reproduction using loudspeaker, which can share with me? Great appreciation to all you. Best regards, Junfeng -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20110224/12e28f66/attachment.html ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Michael Graves mgravesatmstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mgra...@mstvp.onsip.com skype mjgraves Twitter mjgraves ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
Is it so different from Ralph Glasgal's ambiophonic cross-talk cancelling? Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 w: http://sparg.derby.ac.uk/SPARG/Staff_PLX.asp From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Graves [mgra...@mstvp.com] Sent: 24 February 2011 22:16 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Michael Graves mgravesatmstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mgra...@mstvp.onsip.com skype mjgraves Twitter mjgraves ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
This is getting off topic, but in helping my advisor prepare an invited talk a few months ago I found that the idea of cross-talk canceling was invented by Manfred Schroeder and Bishnu Atal in the 60's at Bell Labs: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3236949.html They should have waited 40 years to apply for that patent! The more recent work that I know of has been done by Darren Ward Gary Elko, Chris Kyriakakis' group, and Kirkeby Nelson. I'd be surprised if there weren't a couple of vsts, but I don't know of any off hand. Josh On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Peter Lennox p.len...@derby.ac.uk wrote: Is it so different from Ralph Glasgal's ambiophonic cross-talk cancelling? Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 w: http://sparg.derby.ac.uk/SPARG/Staff_PLX.asp From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Graves [mgra...@mstvp.com] Sent: 24 February 2011 22:16 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Michael Graves mgravesatmstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mgra...@mstvp.onsip.com skype mjgraves Twitter mjgraves ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Joshua Atkins Ph.D. Candidate Dept. Electrical Engineering Johns Hopkins University 3400 North Charles Street Baltimore, Maryland 21218 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
In detail, I think, yes it is different. It is designed for a certain angle and distance which are different at least from RGs stereo dipole where the speakers are close together in front of the listener. But I do not see any reason why the whole thing could not be easily programmed up. After all, any analogue (determanistic) process can be digitally modeled as accurately as one wishes. I am unaware whether anyone has done it. It is fun to play the Sonic Hologram--I pull mine out every one in a while, Robert On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Peter Lennox wrote: Is it so different from Ralph Glasgal's ambiophonic cross-talk cancelling? Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 w: http://sparg.derby.ac.uk/SPARG/Staff_PLX.asp From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Graves [mgra...@mstvp.com] Sent: 24 February 2011 22:16 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Michael Graves mgravesatmstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mgra...@mstvp.onsip.com skype mjgraves Twitter mjgraves ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
I think this idea was invented by Christian Huygens and Young and Fresnel. Once one knows that sound is a wave phenomenon, there is nothing left to invent--except the details of how the sound goes around the head. Practical implementation especially in the analogue world is another story! Robert On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Josh Atkins wrote: This is getting off topic, but in helping my advisor prepare an invited talk a few months ago I found that the idea of cross-talk canceling was invented by Manfred Schroeder and Bishnu Atal in the 60's at Bell Labs: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3236949.html They should have waited 40 years to apply for that patent! The more recent work that I know of has been done by Darren Ward Gary Elko, Chris Kyriakakis' group, and Kirkeby Nelson. I'd be surprised if there weren't a couple of vsts, but I don't know of any off hand. Josh On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Peter Lennox p.len...@derby.ac.uk wrote: Is it so different from Ralph Glasgal's ambiophonic cross-talk cancelling? Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 w: http://sparg.derby.ac.uk/SPARG/Staff_PLX.asp From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Graves [mgra...@mstvp.com] Sent: 24 February 2011 22:16 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Michael Graves mgravesatmstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mgra...@mstvp.onsip.com skype mjgraves Twitter mjgraves ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Joshua Atkins Ph.D. Candidate Dept. Electrical Engineering Johns Hopkins University 3400 North Charles Street Baltimore, Maryland 21218 ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
It is similar: The Carver C-9 is cancelling one occurence of cross-talk by mixing in to each channel a delayed inverted copy of the other channel, while the RACE algorithm cancels the following cross-talk occurences recursively because the mixed delayed inverted signals must also be cancelled... Le 24 février 2011, Robert Greene a écrit : In detail, I think, yes it is different. It is designed for a certain angle and distance which are different at least from RGs stereo dipole where the speakers are close together in front of the listener. But I do not see any reason why the whole thing could not be easily programmed up. After all, any analogue (determanistic) process can be digitally modeled as accurately as one wishes. I am unaware whether anyone has done it. It is fun to play the Sonic Hologram--I pull mine out every one in a while, Robert On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Peter Lennox wrote: Is it so different from Ralph Glasgal's ambiophonic cross-talk cancelling? Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 w: http://sparg.derby.ac.uk/SPARG/Staff_PLX.asp From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Graves [mgra...@mstvp.com] Sent: 24 February 2011 22:16 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Michael Graves mgravesatmstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mgra...@mstvp.onsip.com skype mjgraves Twitter mjgraves ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Marc ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction
Hello, Thanks a lot for so valuable comments and active discussions. While, possibly I did not give a clear explanation of my problem before. therefore, I would like to show the problem again more clearly. I am starting to research on 3D audio reproduction using two/three loudspeakers. therefore, I began with build up a real-time 3D sound reproduction system with two loudspeakers, based on binaural technique (HRTF, BRIR, etc.). Basically, we can reproduce 3D sound by simply convlving signal and HRTF, the synthesized signal in this way is OK for listening using headphone. While, when presenting this synthesized signal using loudspeakers, the spatial sensation will be distorted, because of the cross-talk problem. Thus, we must design cross-talk cancellation algorithms to recover the spatial sensation even if using loudspeakers. I am now confusing how to implement an efficient cross-talk cancellation algorithm for this application. In fact, I did one cross-talk cancellation, while it cannot effectively work. Therefore, I am now consulting you whether anyone can show some more comments on this issue, and share some source code for this technology. Thank you so much. Best regards, Junfeng 2011/2/25 Marc Lavallée m...@hacklava.net It is similar: The Carver C-9 is cancelling one occurence of cross-talk by mixing in to each channel a delayed inverted copy of the other channel, while the RACE algorithm cancels the following cross-talk occurences recursively because the mixed delayed inverted signals must also be cancelled... Le 24 février 2011, Robert Greene a écrit : In detail, I think, yes it is different. It is designed for a certain angle and distance which are different at least from RGs stereo dipole where the speakers are close together in front of the listener. But I do not see any reason why the whole thing could not be easily programmed up. After all, any analogue (determanistic) process can be digitally modeled as accurately as one wishes. I am unaware whether anyone has done it. It is fun to play the Sonic Hologram--I pull mine out every one in a while, Robert On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Peter Lennox wrote: Is it so different from Ralph Glasgal's ambiophonic cross-talk cancelling? Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 w: http://sparg.derby.ac.uk/SPARG/Staff_PLX.asp From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Graves [mgra...@mstvp.com] Sent: 24 February 2011 22:16 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] cross-talk cancellation used in binaural sound reproduction I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Hologram unit that I bought on Ebay for about $80. It's a nice little demo piece, but limited in its application. That said, it's biggest problem is noise. Of course it's all analogue and built around -10 dbm levels. And all those capacitors are now very old. Has this sort of thing evern been implemented in code, like a VST plug-in? Ideally it would be nice to have it available within the plug-in architecture of the Logitech Squeezeserver that we use for casual audio playback. There are even limited implementations of room correction done in that manner. Michael On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:15:40 -0800 (PST), Robert Greene wrote: I suppose that someone ought to mention-so I shall-- the Carver Sonic Hologram. You can still find the devices around(they were crosstalk cancellation processors). They work really well, if you do not mind sitting really still in one spot (which of course you are going to have to do for any such system with only two speakers). And the nice thing is the Sonic Hologram sounds good- it does minimal damage to the music. It is interesting--sort of tells you where the industry was and still is on surround and so on--that Martin Colloms writing about the Sonic Hologram in HiFiNews says that it definitely makes stereo better [and potentially much better] but that it is just too much trouble... Robert ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- Michael Graves mgravesatmstvp.com http://www.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mgra...@mstvp.onsip.com skype mjgraves Twitter mjgraves ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email
