subject:"Re\: \[Sursound\] \[Proposal\] for HOA web\-streaming\-format"

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-09 Thread Fersch, Christof

Right on the original question and I don’t want to argue either. Just had a 
small investigation recently and learned myself it is not an easy to answer 
question.

For instance, on mobile platforms, e.g., iOS, the underlying framework is the 
same for all browsers and there for codec support is (more or less) independent 
on the browser.

On PC-platforms, Firefox and Chromium-based seems to have a policy not to 
access OS-functionality for media codecs (with exception for some video codecs).

In summary: it is a mess and very dependent on many factors.

Very widely supported is the AAC-family, including LC, HE-AACv1 and v2 
(hopefully soon xHE-AAC also).

//Christof



From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan Schreiber 

Date: Tuesday, 9. May 2023 at 18:39
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
Cristof, I actually agree with you, but:

The original question was if Safari supports DD+, “probably”.

See also the subject.

So Safari does, Edge does on Windows, Chrome probably not.

We were “checking” standard browsers.

It is next to obvious that you would use DD+ either for surround sound
(but AAC codecs and open codecs can do the same, of course), or
especially to code Atmos via JOC.

> “Again, not as easy as it seems to be at the first glance.
>
> Hope this helps.”

Hope my comments help, as well...

There is not much to “argue”, because I took a neutral position.

Best,

Stefan

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof  -

  Data: Tue, 9 May 2023 16:09:43 +

  De: "Fersch, Christof" 

  Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

  Para: Surround Sound discussion group 

> Hi guys,
>
>
>
>  Thanks for the investigation!
>
>
>
>  “Android does not support Dolby codecs.”
>
>  It is true that Dolby codecs are not part of the AOSP codebase.
> However, if Android-based phones support Dolby codecs or not is a
> different story. For instance, I would assume (but cannot check)
> that most Android-based Samsung phones support many Dolby codecs.
>
>
>
>  Again, not as easy as it seems to be at the first glance.
>
>  Hope this helps.
>
>
>
>
>
>  //Christof
>
>
>
>
>
>  From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan
> Schreiber 
>
>  Date: Tuesday, 9. May 2023 at 16:44
>
>  To: Surround Sound discussion group 
>
>  Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
>
>  Hello Hector!
>
>
>
>  These results make a lot of sense, and are what I would expect:
>
>  Android does not support Dolby codecs.
>
>
>
>  This is no speculation, but specified:
>
>
>
>   ...
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-09 Thread Stefan Schreiber

Cristof, I actually agree with you, but:

The original question was if Safari supports DD+, “probably”.

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-09 Thread Fersch, Christof

Hi guys,

Thanks for the investigation!

“Android does not support Dolby codecs.”
It is true that Dolby codecs are not part of the AOSP codebase. However, if 
Android-based phones support Dolby codecs or not is a different story. For 
instance, I would assume (but cannot check) that most Android-based Samsung 
phones support many Dolby codecs.

Again, not as easy as it seems to be at the first glance.
Hope this helps.


//Christof


From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan Schreiber 

Date: Tuesday, 9. May 2023 at 16:44
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
Hello Hector!

These results make a lot of sense, and are what I would expect:
Android does not support Dolby codecs.

This is no speculation, but specified:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/media/media-formats__;!!HOHtwYw!ESig7XL8V_HBOrEahq_ZxcZqYBz7sE8moN4r1g4UdxKpVq-UINAr-fWsNUcq33fTymXEZolEqLZ5czV3Tr3KTOrt$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/developer.android.com/guide/topics/media/media-formats__;!!HOHtwYw!ESig7XL8V_HBOrEahq_ZxcZqYBz7sE8moN4r1g4UdxKpVq-UINAr-fWsNUcq33fTymXEZolEqLZ5czV3Tr3KTOrt$>

(Chrome on Android should show the very same results. )

Interestingly, Android does natively support hevc (video codec),
though restricted to level 4.1 (minimum requirement).

Best,

Stefan

- Mensagem de Hector Centeno  -

  Data: Tue, 9 May 2023 08:42:07 -0400

  De: Hector Centeno 

  Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

  Para: Surround Sound discussion group 

> Hello,
>
>
>
>  I use Edge on Android and Windows machines. This is what I get on my
>
>  Android device (latest Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra):
>
>
>
>  Audio codecs
>
>  PCM audio support
>
>  Yes ✔
>
>  MP3 support
>
>  Yes ✔
>
>  AAC support
>
>  Yes ✔
>
>  Dolby Digital support
>
>  No ✘
>
>  Dolby Digital Plus support
>
>  No ✘
>
>  Ogg Vorbis support
>
>  Yes ✔
>
>  Ogg Opus support
>
>  Yes ✔
>
>  WebM with Vorbis support
>
>  Yes ✔
>
>  WebM with Opus support
>
>  Yes ✔
>
>
>
>  Best,
>
>  Hector Centeno
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Mon, May 8, 2023, 12:38 p.m. Stefan Schreiber 
>
>  wrote:
>
>> Ammendment:
>>
>>
>>
>>  “EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.”
>>
>>
>>
>>  I did a fast html5test (.com) on my iPad running on some very old iOS
>>
>>  13.x (for some stupid reason I can’t update my AirPad Air 2 to version
>>
>>  15.x, which would be the last supported one; need probably to reset my
>>
>>  Apple ID to “recover” my lost password 🤭), and even in this outdated
>>
>>  configuration:
>>
>>
>>
>>  DD+ is definitively supported by mobile Safari, see result list (here
>>
>>  posted in text format, sursound might not like htrml5 text...I hope
>>
>>  there won't be any "optical breakdown"...):
>>
>>
>>
>>  Audio codecs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  PCM audio support
>>
>>
>>
>>  No
>>
>>
>>
>>  MP3 support
>>
>>
>>
>>  Yes ✔
>>
>>
>>
>>  AAC support
>>
>>
>>
>>  Yes ✔
>>
>>
>>
>>  Dolby Digital support
>>
>>
>>
>>  Yes ✔
>>
>>
>>
>>  Dolby Digital Plus support
>>
>>
>>
>>  Yes ✔
>>
>>
>>
>>  Ogg Vorbis support
>>
>>
>>
>>  No ✘
>>
>>
>>
>>  Ogg Opus support
>>
>>
>>
>>  No ✘
>>
>>
>>
>>  WebM with Vorbis support
>>
>>
>>
>>  No ✘
>>
>>
>>
>>  WebM with Opus support
>>
>>
>>
>>  No ✘
>>
>>
>>
>>  I don't think that iOS/iPadOS 16-x would show different results, by the
>>
>>  way.
>>
>>
>>
>>  As there is no Safari adaptation for Windows, Linux etc., my statement
>>
>>  that any (more or less recent) Safati browser would support DD+ should
>>
>>  be correct.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Edge: Supports all tested codecs (above) on Win10. (I don't know which
>>
>>  codecs the Edge browsers would support or better "would not support"
>>
>>  if running on other operating systems than Windows, but you can always
>>
>>  test via html5test.com)
>>
>>
>>
>>  (Maybe this last question is a bit academic anyway... Edge i

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-09 Thread Stefan Schreiber


Hello Hector!

These results make a lot of sense, and are what I would expect:  
Android does not support Dolby codecs.


This is no speculation, but specified:

https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/media/media-formats

(Chrome on Android should show the very same results. )

Interestingly, Android does natively support hevc (video codec),  
though restricted to level 4.1 (minimum requirement).


Best,

Stefan

- Mensagem de Hector Centeno  -

 Data: Tue, 9 May 2023 08:42:07 -0400

 De: Hector Centeno 

 Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

 Para: Surround Sound discussion group 


Hello,



 I use Edge on Android and Windows machines. This is what I get on my

 Android device (latest Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra):



 Audio codecs

 PCM audio support

 Yes ✔

 MP3 support

 Yes ✔

 AAC support

 Yes ✔

 Dolby Digital support

 No ✘

 Dolby Digital Plus support

 No ✘

 Ogg Vorbis support

 Yes ✔

 Ogg Opus support

 Yes ✔

 WebM with Vorbis support

 Yes ✔

 WebM with Opus support

 Yes ✔



 Best,

 Hector Centeno











 On Mon, May 8, 2023, 12:38 p.m. Stefan Schreiber 

 wrote:


Ammendment:



 “EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.”



 I did a fast html5test (.com) on my iPad running on some very old iOS

 13.x (for some stupid reason I can’t update my AirPad Air 2 to version

 15.x, which would be the last supported one; need probably to reset my

 Apple ID to “recover” my lost password 🤭), and even in this outdated

 configuration:



 DD+ is definitively supported by mobile Safari, see result list (here

 posted in text format, sursound might not like htrml5 text...I hope

 there won't be any "optical breakdown"...):



 Audio codecs







 PCM audio support



 No



 MP3 support



 Yes ✔



 AAC support



 Yes ✔



 Dolby Digital support



 Yes ✔



 Dolby Digital Plus support



 Yes ✔



 Ogg Vorbis support



 No ✘



 Ogg Opus support



 No ✘



 WebM with Vorbis support



 No ✘



 WebM with Opus support



 No ✘



 I don't think that iOS/iPadOS 16-x would show different results, by the

 way.



 As there is no Safari adaptation for Windows, Linux etc., my statement

 that any (more or less recent) Safati browser would support DD+ should

 be correct.



 Edge: Supports all tested codecs (above) on Win10. (I don't know which

 codecs the Edge browsers would support or better "would not support"

 if running on other operating systems than Windows, but you can always

 test via html5test.com)



 (Maybe this last question is a bit academic anyway... Edge is in the

 very most cases used as desktop browser for Windows 10/11.)



 Best,



 Stefan



 - - - -



 I think that mobile Safari (so the Safari version for iOS and

 iPadOS) should also support DD+ (since iOS 14/iPadOS 14 probably),

 because Apple Spatial Audio supports DD+/Atmos.



 I will try to test this. ;-)



 Otherwise, agreed.



 Best,



 Stefan

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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-09 Thread Hector Centeno

Additionally, on the same Android device I get the same results with Chrome
and Firefox:

Audio codecs
PCM audio support
Yes ✔
MP3 support
Yes ✔
AAC support
Yes ✔
Dolby Digital support
No ✘
Dolby Digital Plus support
No ✘
Ogg Vorbis support
Yes ✔
Ogg Opus support
Yes ✔
WebM with Vorbis support
Yes ✔
WebM with Opus support
Yes ✔


On Tue, May 9, 2023, 8:42 a.m. Hector Centeno  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I use Edge on Android and Windows machines. This is what I get on my
> Android device (latest Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra):
>
> Audio codecs
> PCM audio support
> Yes ✔
> MP3 support
> Yes ✔
> AAC support
> Yes ✔
> Dolby Digital support
> No ✘
> Dolby Digital Plus support
> No ✘
> Ogg Vorbis support
> Yes ✔
> Ogg Opus support
> Yes ✔
> WebM with Vorbis support
> Yes ✔
> WebM with Opus support
> Yes ✔
>
> Best,
> Hector Centeno
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023, 12:38 p.m. Stefan Schreiber 
> wrote:
>
>> Ammendment:
>>
>> “EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.”
>>
>> I did a fast html5test (.com) on my iPad running on some very old iOS
>> 13.x (for some stupid reason I can’t update my AirPad Air 2 to version
>> 15.x, which would be the last supported one; need probably to reset my
>> Apple ID to “recover” my lost password 🤭), and even in this outdated
>> configuration:
>>
>> DD+ is definitively supported by mobile Safari, see result list (here
>> posted in text format, sursound might not like htrml5 text...I hope
>> there won't be any "optical breakdown"...):
>>
>> Audio codecs
>>
>>
>>
>> PCM audio support
>>
>> No
>>
>> MP3 support
>>
>> Yes ✔
>>
>> AAC support
>>
>> Yes ✔
>>
>> Dolby Digital support
>>
>> Yes ✔
>>
>> Dolby Digital Plus support
>>
>> Yes ✔
>>
>> Ogg Vorbis support
>>
>> No ✘
>>
>> Ogg Opus support
>>
>> No ✘
>>
>> WebM with Vorbis support
>>
>> No ✘
>>
>> WebM with Opus support
>>
>> No ✘
>>
>> I don't think that iOS/iPadOS 16-x would show different results, by the
>> way.
>>
>> As there is no Safari adaptation for Windows, Linux etc., my statement
>> that any (more or less recent) Safati browser would support DD+ should
>> be correct.
>>
>> Edge: Supports all tested codecs (above) on Win10. (I don't know which
>> codecs the Edge browsers would support or better "would not support"
>> if running on other operating systems than Windows, but you can always
>> test via html5test.com)
>>
>> (Maybe this last question is a bit academic anyway... Edge is in the
>> very most cases used as desktop browser for Windows 10/11.)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>> - - - -
>>
>> > I think that mobile Safari (so the Safari version for iOS and
>> > iPadOS) should also support DD+ (since iOS 14/iPadOS 14 probably),
>> > because Apple Spatial Audio supports DD+/Atmos.
>> >
>> > I will try to test this. ;-)
>> >
>> > Otherwise, agreed.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Stefan
>> >
>> > - Mensagem de Fersch, Christof 
>> -
>> >
>> > Data: Mon, 8 May 2023 06:01:56 +
>> >
>> > De: "Fersch, Christof" 
>> >
>> > Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
>> >
>> > Para: Surround Sound discussion group 
>> >
>> >> You are right on EDGE and Safari on *PC platforms*. Firefox,
>> >> Chrome, … are a different story. And there is more differences
>> >> depending on which platform the browser is running (Windows,
>> >> Android, iOS, MacOS, …). What I wanted to say is that you would
>> >> need to be more specific for a statement on browser support (is
>> >> always a combination of browser, OS, maybe even HW).
>> >>
>> >> Nevertheless, I of course agree MPEG-H support on Browser/OS is not
>> >> “very widespread”. However, it also offers features/compression
>> >> which are much more advanced than what currently deployed codecs
>> >> can do.
>> >>
>> >> Ok, I see, thanks for clarifying. The statement below refers to DD
>> >> (not DD+).
>> >>
>> >> //Christof
>> >>
>> >> From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan
>> >> Schreiber 
>> >>
>> >> Date: Sa

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-09 Thread Hector Centeno

Hello,

I use Edge on Android and Windows machines. This is what I get on my
Android device (latest Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra):

Audio codecs
PCM audio support
Yes ✔
MP3 support
Yes ✔
AAC support
Yes ✔
Dolby Digital support
No ✘
Dolby Digital Plus support
No ✘
Ogg Vorbis support
Yes ✔
Ogg Opus support
Yes ✔
WebM with Vorbis support
Yes ✔
WebM with Opus support
Yes ✔

Best,
Hector Centeno





On Mon, May 8, 2023, 12:38 p.m. Stefan Schreiber 
wrote:

> Ammendment:
>
> “EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.”
>
> I did a fast html5test (.com) on my iPad running on some very old iOS
> 13.x (for some stupid reason I can’t update my AirPad Air 2 to version
> 15.x, which would be the last supported one; need probably to reset my
> Apple ID to “recover” my lost password 🤭), and even in this outdated
> configuration:
>
> DD+ is definitively supported by mobile Safari, see result list (here
> posted in text format, sursound might not like htrml5 text...I hope
> there won't be any "optical breakdown"...):
>
> Audio codecs
>
>
>
> PCM audio support
>
> No
>
> MP3 support
>
> Yes ✔
>
> AAC support
>
> Yes ✔
>
> Dolby Digital support
>
> Yes ✔
>
> Dolby Digital Plus support
>
> Yes ✔
>
> Ogg Vorbis support
>
> No ✘
>
> Ogg Opus support
>
> No ✘
>
> WebM with Vorbis support
>
> No ✘
>
> WebM with Opus support
>
> No ✘
>
> I don't think that iOS/iPadOS 16-x would show different results, by the
> way.
>
> As there is no Safari adaptation for Windows, Linux etc., my statement
> that any (more or less recent) Safati browser would support DD+ should
> be correct.
>
> Edge: Supports all tested codecs (above) on Win10. (I don't know which
> codecs the Edge browsers would support or better "would not support"
> if running on other operating systems than Windows, but you can always
> test via html5test.com)
>
> (Maybe this last question is a bit academic anyway... Edge is in the
> very most cases used as desktop browser for Windows 10/11.)
>
> Best,
>
> Stefan
>
> - - - -
>
> > I think that mobile Safari (so the Safari version for iOS and
> > iPadOS) should also support DD+ (since iOS 14/iPadOS 14 probably),
> > because Apple Spatial Audio supports DD+/Atmos.
> >
> > I will try to test this. ;-)
> >
> > Otherwise, agreed.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> > - Mensagem de Fersch, Christof  -
> >
> > Data: Mon, 8 May 2023 06:01:56 +
> >
> > De: "Fersch, Christof" 
> >
> > Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
> >
> > Para: Surround Sound discussion group 
> >
> >> You are right on EDGE and Safari on *PC platforms*. Firefox,
> >> Chrome, … are a different story. And there is more differences
> >> depending on which platform the browser is running (Windows,
> >> Android, iOS, MacOS, …). What I wanted to say is that you would
> >> need to be more specific for a statement on browser support (is
> >> always a combination of browser, OS, maybe even HW).
> >>
> >> Nevertheless, I of course agree MPEG-H support on Browser/OS is not
> >> “very widespread”. However, it also offers features/compression
> >> which are much more advanced than what currently deployed codecs
> >> can do.
> >>
> >> Ok, I see, thanks for clarifying. The statement below refers to DD
> >> (not DD+).
> >>
> >> //Christof
> >>
> >> From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan
> >> Schreiber 
> >>
> >> Date: Saturday, 6. May 2023 at 00:41
> >>
> >> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
> >>
> >> Short answer:
> >>
> >> EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.
> >>
> >> I  really was refering to this one...
> >>
> >> AC-3 patents should have expired by now, but of course this codec is a
> >>
> >> bit old. (And won’t support even 7.1, by the way. The highest channel
> >>
> >> count would be 6.1, and the B channel would be matrixed into 5.1. If
> >>
> >> my memory is correctly working. But probably yes... ;-)
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Stefan
> >>
> >> ...
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-08 Thread Stefan Schreiber


Ammendment:

“EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.”

I did a fast html5test (.com) on my iPad running on some very old iOS  
13.x (for some stupid reason I can’t update my AirPad Air 2 to version  
15.x, which would be the last supported one; need probably to reset my  
Apple ID to “recover” my lost password 🤭), and even in this outdated  
configuration: 


DD+ is definitively supported by mobile Safari, see result list (here  
posted in text format, sursound might not like htrml5 text...I hope  
there won't be any "optical breakdown"...):


Audio codecs



PCM audio support   

No

MP3 support       

Yes ✔

AAC support       

Yes ✔

Dolby Digital support

Yes ✔

Dolby Digital Plus support

Yes ✔

Ogg Vorbis support

No ✘

Ogg Opus support

No ✘

WebM with Vorbis support

No ✘

WebM with Opus support

No ✘

I don't think that iOS/iPadOS 16-x would show different results, by the way.

As there is no Safari adaptation for Windows, Linux etc., my statement  
that any (more or less recent) Safati browser would support DD+ should  
be correct.


Edge: Supports all tested codecs (above) on Win10. (I don't know which  
codecs the Edge browsers would support or better "would not support"  
if running on other operating systems than Windows, but you can always  
test via html5test.com)


(Maybe this last question is a bit academic anyway... Edge is in the  
very most cases used as desktop browser for Windows 10/11.)


Best,

Stefan

- - - -

I think that mobile Safari (so the Safari version for iOS and  
iPadOS) should also support DD+ (since iOS 14/iPadOS 14 probably),  
because Apple Spatial Audio supports DD+/Atmos.


I will try to test this. ;-)

Otherwise, agreed.

Best,

Stefan

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof  -

Data: Mon, 8 May 2023 06:01:56 +

De: "Fersch, Christof" 

Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Para: Surround Sound discussion group 

You are right on EDGE and Safari on *PC platforms*. Firefox,  
Chrome, … are a different story. And there is more differences  
depending on which platform the browser is running (Windows,  
Android, iOS, MacOS, …). What I wanted to say is that you would  
need to be more specific for a statement on browser support (is  
always a combination of browser, OS, maybe even HW).


Nevertheless, I of course agree MPEG-H support on Browser/OS is not  
“very widespread”. However, it also offers features/compression  
which are much more advanced than what currently deployed codecs  
can do.


Ok, I see, thanks for clarifying. The statement below refers to DD  
(not DD+).


//Christof

From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan  
Schreiber 


Date: Saturday, 6. May 2023 at 00:41

To: Surround Sound discussion group 

Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Short answer:

EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.

I  really was refering to this one...

AC-3 patents should have expired by now, but of course this codec is a

bit old. (And won’t support even 7.1, by the way. The highest channel

count would be 6.1, and the B channel would be matrixed into 5.1. If

my memory is correctly working. But probably yes... ;-)

Thanks,

Stefan

...

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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-08 Thread Stefan Schreiber

I think that mobile Safari (so the Safari version for iOS and iPadOS)
should also support DD+ (since iOS 14/iPadOS 14 probably), because
Apple Spatial Audio supports DD+/Atmos.

I will try to test this. ;-)

Otherwise, agreed.

Best,

Stefan

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof -

Data: Mon, 8 May 2023 06:01:56 +

De: "Fersch, Christof"

Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Para: Surround Sound discussion group

You are right on EDGE and Safari on *PC platforms*. Firefox, Chrome,
… are a different story. And there is more differences depending on
which platform the browser is running (Windows, Android, iOS, MacOS,
…). What I wanted to say is that you would need to be more specific
for a statement on browser support (is always a combination of
browser, OS, maybe even HW).

Nevertheless, I of course agree MPEG-H support on Browser/OS is not
“very widespread”. However, it also offers features/compression
which are much more advanced than what currently deployed codecs can
do.

Ok, I see, thanks for clarifying. The statement below refers to DD
(not DD+).

//Christof

From: Sursound on behalf of Stefan
Schreiber

Date: Saturday, 6. May 2023 at 00:41

To: Surround Sound discussion group

Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Short answer:

EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.

I really was refering to this one...

AC-3 patents should have expired by now, but of course this codec is a

bit old. (And won’t support even 7.1, by the way. The highest channel

count would be 6.1, and the B channel would be matrixed into 5.1. If

my memory is correctly working. But probably yes... ;-)

Thanks,

Stefan

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof -

Data: Fri, 5 May 2023 16:56:38 +

De: "Fersch, Christof"

Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Para: Surround Sound discussion group

Hi Stefan,

I you are interested in commercially using MPEG-H audio, you can

easily license from VIA:

https://www.via-la.com/licensing/mpeg-h/

That is the easiest possible way and similar for the AAC-family.

On browser-support: There is also a browser plugin under the shared

links. Which is a start. Obviously, there is no commercial

implementation available in all browsers.

On “already available”: At least DD+ is not (maybe you meant AC-3,

for which the situation may be different).

Best regards,

//Christof

From: Sursound on behalf of Stefan

Schreiber

Date: Wednesday, 3. May 2023 at 20:38

To: Surround Sound discussion group

Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Ammendment:

I see what you say. However, if we are talking about some solution to

code, transport, decode and render HOA within browsers, Mpeg-H

currently just can't help. (Because the browser AND OS support for

Mpeg-H 3DA is currently "stuck" at exactly 0%.

Programming your own "app" might run into license issues. (You don't

have such an issue with AAC or even DD+ codecs; which are "already

available" if you would chose to use them.)

I suppose the Mpeg-I Immersive Audio (which very probably would

include support for Mpeg-H 3DA "classic", in the same sense as HE-AAC

is a superset of AAC-LC) might have enormous potential for the

computer and gaming industry. (However, application is not exactly

"imminent". )

Best regards

Stefan

"Please also see

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$%3chttps:/urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$%3e>

and

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$%3chttp

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-07 Thread Fersch, Christof

You are right on EDGE and Safari on *PC platforms*. Firefox, Chrome, … are a 
different story. And there is more differences depending on which platform the 
browser is running (Windows, Android, iOS, MacOS, …). What I wanted to say is 
that you would need to be more specific for a statement on browser support (is 
always a combination of browser, OS, maybe even HW).

Nevertheless, I of course agree MPEG-H support on Browser/OS is not “very 
widespread”. However, it also offers features/compression which are much more 
advanced than what currently deployed codecs can do.

Ok, I see, thanks for clarifying. The statement below refers to DD (not DD+).

//Christof

From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan Schreiber 

Date: Saturday, 6. May 2023 at 00:41
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
Short answer:

EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.

I  really was refering to this one...

AC-3 patents should have expired by now, but of course this codec is a
bit old. (And won’t support even 7.1, by the way. The highest channel
count would be 6.1, and the B channel would be matrixed into 5.1. If
my memory is correctly working. But probably yes... ;-)

Thanks,

Stefan

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof  -

  Data: Fri, 5 May 2023 16:56:38 +

  De: "Fersch, Christof" 

  Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

  Para: Surround Sound discussion group 

> Hi Stefan,
>
>
>
>  I you are interested in commercially using MPEG-H audio, you can
> easily license from VIA:
>
>  https://www.via-la.com/licensing/mpeg-h/
>
>
>
>  That is the easiest possible way and similar for the AAC-family.
>
>
>
>  On browser-support: There is also a browser plugin under the shared
> links. Which is a start. Obviously, there is no commercial
> implementation available in all browsers.
>
>
>
>  On “already available”: At least DD+ is not (maybe you meant AC-3,
> for which the situation may be different).
>
>
>
>  Best regards,
>
>  //Christof
>
>
>
>  From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan
> Schreiber 
>
>  Date: Wednesday, 3. May 2023 at 20:38
>
>  To: Surround Sound discussion group 
>
>  Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
>
>  Ammendment:
>
>
>
>  I see what you say. However, if we are talking about some solution to
>
>  code, transport, decode and render HOA within browsers, Mpeg-H
>
>  currently just can't help. (Because the browser AND OS support for
>
>  Mpeg-H 3DA is currently "stuck" at exactly 0%.
>
>
>
>  Programming your own "app" might run into license issues. (You don't
>
>  have such an issue with AAC or even DD+ codecs; which are "already
>
>  available" if you would chose to use them.)
>
>
>
>  I suppose the Mpeg-I Immersive Audio (which very probably would
>
>  include support for Mpeg-H 3DA "classic", in the same sense as HE-AAC
>
>  is a superset of AAC-LC) might have enormous potential for the
>
>  computer and gaming industry. (However, application is not exactly
>
>  "imminent". )
>
>
>
>  Best regards
>
>
>
>  Stefan
>
>> "Please also see
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$%3chttps:/urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$%3e>
>>
>>
>>
>>  and
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$%3chttps:/urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$%3e>

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-05 Thread Stefan Schreiber

Short answer:

EAC-3 (DD+) is natively supported by Edge and all Safari browsers.

I really was refering to this one...

AC-3 patents should have expired by now, but of course this codec is a
bit old. (And won’t support even 7.1, by the way. The highest channel
count would be 6.1, and the B channel would be matrixed into 5.1. If
my memory is correctly working. But probably yes... ;-)

Thanks,

Stefan

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof -

Data: Fri, 5 May 2023 16:56:38 +

De: "Fersch, Christof"

Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Para: Surround Sound discussion group

Hi Stefan,

I you are interested in commercially using MPEG-H audio, you can
easily license from VIA:

https://www.via-la.com/licensing/mpeg-h/

That is the easiest possible way and similar for the AAC-family.

On browser-support: There is also a browser plugin under the shared
links. Which is a start. Obviously, there is no commercial
implementation available in all browsers.

On “already available”: At least DD+ is not (maybe you meant AC-3,
for which the situation may be different).

Best regards,

//Christof

From: Sursound on behalf of Stefan
Schreiber

Date: Wednesday, 3. May 2023 at 20:38

To: Surround Sound discussion group

Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Ammendment:

I see what you say. However, if we are talking about some solution to

code, transport, decode and render HOA within browsers, Mpeg-H

currently just can't help. (Because the browser AND OS support for

Mpeg-H 3DA is currently "stuck" at exactly 0%.

Programming your own "app" might run into license issues. (You don't

have such an issue with AAC or even DD+ codecs; which are "already

available" if you would chose to use them.)

I suppose the Mpeg-I Immersive Audio (which very probably would

include support for Mpeg-H 3DA "classic", in the same sense as HE-AAC

is a superset of AAC-LC) might have enormous potential for the

computer and gaming industry. (However, application is not exactly

"imminent". )

Best regards

Stefan

"Please also see

and

With all due respect:

I really like Mpeg-H and am following the Mpeg-I development, but

Mpeg 3DA is certainly not an open system.

Even if there is some open code.

So how do you currently license Mpeg-H 3DA? (A good expert

question, probably... ;-)

(I suppose I have to write to Fraunhofer IIS to treat that. Or will

you guys at Dolby "help" me to do this? ;-)

Best regards

Stefan

P.S.: Not to overlook that Mpeg-H 3DA Baseline doesn't even support

HOA, whereas the more complete version Mpeg 3DA LC does...

(Atmos doesn't seem to support HOA either. )

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof -----

Data: Wed, 3 May 2023 13:54:43 +

De: "Fersch, Christof"

Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Para: Surround Sound discussion group

Please also see

and

for freely available MPEG-H decoders and encoders, including

web-plugin for the decoder.

//Christof

From: Sursound on behalf of Aaron

Heller

Date: Tuesday, 2. May 2023 at 22:24

To: Surround Sound discussion group

Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

There's MPEG-H 3D Audio

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.w

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-05 Thread Fersch, Christof

Hi Stefan,

I you are interested in commercially using MPEG-H audio, you can easily license 
from VIA:
https://www.via-la.com/licensing/mpeg-h/

That is the easiest possible way and similar for the AAC-family.

On browser-support: There is also a browser plugin under the shared links. 
Which is a start. Obviously, there is no commercial implementation available in 
all browsers.

On “already available”: At least DD+ is not (maybe you meant AC-3, for which 
the situation may be different).

Best regards,
//Christof

From: Sursound  on behalf of Stefan Schreiber 

Date: Wednesday, 3. May 2023 at 20:38
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
Ammendment:

I see what you say. However, if we are talking about some solution to
code, transport, decode and render HOA within browsers, Mpeg-H
currently just can't help. (Because the browser AND OS support for
Mpeg-H 3DA is currently "stuck" at exactly 0%.

Programming your own "app" might run into license issues. (You don't
have such an issue with AAC or even DD+ codecs; which are "already
available" if you would chose to use them.)

I suppose the Mpeg-I Immersive Audio (which very probably would
include support for Mpeg-H 3DA "classic", in the same sense as HE-AAC
is a superset of AAC-LC) might have enormous potential for the
computer and gaming industry. (However, application is not exactly
"imminent". )

Best regards

Stefan

> "Please also see
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$>
>
> and
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$>
>
> "
>
> With all due respect:
>
> I really like Mpeg-H and am following the Mpeg-I development, but
> Mpeg 3DA is certainly not an open system.
>
> Even if there is some open code.
>
> So how do you currently license Mpeg-H 3DA?  (A good expert
> question, probably...  ;-)
>
> (I suppose I have to write to Fraunhofer IIS to treat that. Or will
> you guys at Dolby "help" me to do this? ;-)
>
> Best regards
>
> Stefan
>
> P.S.: Not to overlook that Mpeg-H 3DA Baseline doesn't even support
> HOA, whereas the more complete version Mpeg 3DA LC does...
>
> (Atmos doesn't seem to support HOA either. )
>
> - Mensagem de Fersch, Christof  -
>
> Data: Wed, 3 May 2023 13:54:43 +
>
> De: "Fersch, Christof" 
>
> Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
>
> Para: Surround Sound discussion group 
>
>> Please also see
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKWxraU-YS$>
>>
>> and
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe__;!!HOHtwYw!FT8U9L-leOGRdV2eq47b7qV69FDM-7gqiT0R31XGsvIrpu2HfqhY0IEHyQJIS0Baa4N-0Wq5OGT7hGlKW_jNaTZE$>
>>
>> for freely available MPEG-H decoders and encoders, including
>> web-plugin for the decoder.
>>
>> //Christof
>>
>> From: Sursound  on behalf of Aaron
>> Heller 
>>
>> Date: Tuesday, 2. May 2023 at 22:24
>>
>> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
>>
>> There's MPEG-H 3D Audio
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaYkwCSiLw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaYkwCSiLw$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266E

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-04 Thread Panos Kouvelis

Hi Thorsten,

I just want to say that I also enjoy this conversation and hearing the many
perspectives that exist.

Definitely worth continuing the discussion.

Cheers!

Pan

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd
<http://mediaflake.com/>*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 9:02 PM Thorsten Michels  wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> Let me first say an impressed "WOW!"
>
> I learned so much reading all these emails and discovered new universes.
> - WOW!
> As I said, I am not an Ambisonic Pro. I am an enthusiast to the best
> meaning of the word. So I did the best proposal I knew and started this
> discussion.
>
> I enjoy it and the many great proposals and ideas coming in. Now I have
> plenty to read and I'll try my very best to catch up with you guys.
> Nevertheless, as there is no "official" standard yet, we could at least
> thrive to provide our feedback and "pull-requests" to existing projects.
>
> And there is nothing to be sorry about saying my first try was not good
> enough. I expected that! Now we have a place to start from and make it
> better with any itteration.
> I would like to keep this disussion going. In a sense of meritocracy,
> not of flame-wars or putting someone down. Every idea may push us ahead,
> so every idea is good and worthy. And if it is "only" useful for
> verifying that we considered all ideas, choose the best ones and didn't
> overlook something, that might become important once. (or not ;-) )
>
> So, keep coming! PLEASE ask questions, propose any ideas and provide
> feedback.
>
>
> Thanks for your participation so far.
>
>
> Take care and stay healthy
>
> Cheers
>
> Thorsten
>
>
>
> Am 02.05.2023 um 19:49 schrieb Stefan Schreiber:
> >
> > “Your proposed mapping could be considered a subset of
> > https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.2051-3-202205-I/“
> >
> >
> > Sorry to say: Definitively not so!
> >
> > A multichannel ordering L C R Ls does not correspond to recent
> > official channel ordering.
> >
> > Normally you do L R C Lfe etc. This is what you have in the venerable
> > Wave format, ITU BS. 775, EBU standards, Mpeg/TV/3GPP standards, on
> > optical discs, Webaudio output ordering and nearly everywhere.
> >
> > I would recommend not to make up some “programmer standards” without
> > studying what is already standardized anyway.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> > P.S.: The proposed order would be “old Dolby cinema order”, extended
> > in some pretty arbitrary way.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > - Mensagem de Marc Lavallée  -
> > Data: Mon, 1 May 2023 14:27:39 -0400
> > De: Marc Lavallée 
> > Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
> > Para: Thorsten Michels 
> > Cc: Surround Sound discussion group 
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hi Thorsten,
> >>
> >> Your proposed mapping could be considered a subset of
> >> https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.2051-3-202205-I/
> >>
> >> Favored loudspeaker layouts for Ambisonics reproduction use the same
> >> angular increment (in each horizontal ring), but it's also possible
> >> to decode to all loudspeakers of an irregular array (for example as
> >> defined in the ITU standard), and it could be better to not use all
> >> available loudspeakers.
> >>
> >> Marc
> >>
> >> Le 2023-05-01 à 14 h 03, Thorsten Michels a écrit :
> >>> Hi all!
> >>>
> >>> I was wondering too, how to stream a HOA audio stream over the web
> >>> A N D  make it easily consumable.
> >>> This sounds like a need for a new "standard" to me.
> >>>
> >>> If it's not there yet, we have to define and build it. Like the nice
> >>> people did when they defined AmbiX.
> >>> I am not a coder, but I think it could be done if someone writes a
> >>> plug-in for a webbrowser ??
> >>> So, if the "specification" is there and agreed, this could be
> >>> proposed to the AES and it can be discussed by a world-wide forum of
> >>> audio engineers and experts.
> >>>
> >>> Well, then let's start the discussion.
> >>>
> >>> 1. Requirements
> >>>
> >>> The standard for streaming HOA must be upward and downward
> >>> compatible. So it must not make any difference, if a FOA or 3OA
> >>> stream is transfered.
> >>>
> &g

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-04 Thread lenmoskowitz


There's also HOAST:

https://hoast.iem.at/play/hoastdemo3_ambi_o4
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341940433_HOAST_A_Higher-Order_Ambisonics_Streaming_Platform
https://hoast.iem.at/
https://github.com/thomasdeppisch/hoast360
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=20828

I don't know if it can be generalized, but it's open source and very 
capable.



Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com
Home of OctoMic and TetraMic
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-04 Thread Thorsten Michels


Hi all!

Let me first say an impressed "WOW!"

I learned so much reading all these emails and discovered new universes. 
- WOW!
As I said, I am not an Ambisonic Pro. I am an enthusiast to the best 
meaning of the word. So I did the best proposal I knew and started this 
discussion.


I enjoy it and the many great proposals and ideas coming in. Now I have 
plenty to read and I'll try my very best to catch up with you guys.
Nevertheless, as there is no "official" standard yet, we could at least 
thrive to provide our feedback and "pull-requests" to existing projects.


And there is nothing to be sorry about saying my first try was not good 
enough. I expected that! Now we have a place to start from and make it 
better with any itteration.
I would like to keep this disussion going. In a sense of meritocracy, 
not of flame-wars or putting someone down. Every idea may push us ahead, 
so every idea is good and worthy. And if it is "only" useful for 
verifying that we considered all ideas, choose the best ones and didn't 
overlook something, that might become important once. (or not ;-) )


So, keep coming! PLEASE ask questions, propose any ideas and provide 
feedback.



Thanks for your participation so far.


Take care and stay healthy

Cheers

Thorsten



Am 02.05.2023 um 19:49 schrieb Stefan Schreiber:


“Your proposed mapping could be considered a subset of 
https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.2051-3-202205-I/“



Sorry to say: Definitively not so!

A multichannel ordering L C R Ls does not correspond to recent 
official channel ordering.


Normally you do L R C Lfe etc. This is what you have in the venerable 
Wave format, ITU BS. 775, EBU standards, Mpeg/TV/3GPP standards, on 
optical discs, Webaudio output ordering and nearly everywhere.


I would recommend not to make up some “programmer standards” without 
studying what is already standardized anyway.


Best,

Stefan

P.S.: The proposed order would be “old Dolby cinema order”, extended 
in some pretty arbitrary way.





- Mensagem de Marc Lavallée  -
Data: Mon, 1 May 2023 14:27:39 -0400
De: Marc Lavallée 
Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
Para: Thorsten Michels 
Cc: Surround Sound discussion group 




Hi Thorsten,

Your proposed mapping could be considered a subset of 
https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.2051-3-202205-I/


Favored loudspeaker layouts for Ambisonics reproduction use the same 
angular increment (in each horizontal ring), but it's also possible 
to decode to all loudspeakers of an irregular array (for example as 
defined in the ITU standard), and it could be better to not use all 
available loudspeakers.


Marc

Le 2023-05-01 à 14 h 03, Thorsten Michels a écrit :

Hi all!

I was wondering too, how to stream a HOA audio stream over the web  
A N D  make it easily consumable.

This sounds like a need for a new "standard" to me.

If it's not there yet, we have to define and build it. Like the nice 
people did when they defined AmbiX.
I am not a coder, but I think it could be done if someone writes a 
plug-in for a webbrowser ??
So, if the "specification" is there and agreed, this could be 
proposed to the AES and it can be discussed by a world-wide forum of 
audio engineers and experts.


Well, then let's start the discussion.

1. Requirements

The standard for streaming HOA must be upward and downward 
compatible. So it must not make any difference, if a FOA or 3OA 
stream is transfered.


If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left empty, 
with digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the decoders can 
recognize it and provide the correct decoding.


2. Channels and their discription

The order of the channels will be as follows:

*Channel**
* *Description**
*
1
Channel 1 - "Front Left"
2
Channel 2 - "Front Center"
3
Channel 3 - "Front Right"
4
Channel 4 - "Left Surround"
5
Channel 5 - "Right Surround"
6
Channel 6 - "Surround Mid Left"
7
Channel7 - "Surround Mid Right"
8
Channel 8 - "High Front Left"
9
Channel 9 - "High Front Center"
10
Channel 10 - "High Front Right"
11
Channel 11 - "High Surround Left "
12
Channel 12 -" High Surround Center"
13
Channel 13 - "High Surround Right"
14
Channel 14 - "High Surround Mid Left"
15
Channel 15 - "High Surround Mid Right"
16
Channel 16 - "Voice of up above"
17
LFE
18
Optional Channel 1 (Low Level - Left ?)
19
Optional Channel 2 (Low Level - Center?)
20
Optional Channel 3 (Low Level - Right?)
21
Optional Channel 4 (Low Level - Surround Left?)
22
Optional Channel 5 (Low Level - Surround Right?)
23
Optional Channel 6 ("Voice from below"?)
24
SMPTE TimeCode

This is my very first

Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-03 Thread Stefan Schreiber


Ammendment:

I see what you say. However, if we are talking about some solution to  
code, transport, decode and render HOA within browsers, Mpeg-H  
currently just can't help. (Because the browser AND OS support for  
Mpeg-H 3DA is currently "stuck" at exactly 0%.


Programming your own "app" might run into license issues. (You don't  
have such an issue with AAC or even DD+ codecs; which are "already  
available" if you would chose to use them.)


I suppose the Mpeg-I Immersive Audio (which very probably would  
include support for Mpeg-H 3DA "classic", in the same sense as HE-AAC  
is a superset of AAC-LC) might have enormous potential for the  
computer and gaming industry. (However, application is not exactly  
"imminent". )


Best regards

Stefan


"Please also see

https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh

and

https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe

"

With all due respect:

I really like Mpeg-H and am following the Mpeg-I development, but  
Mpeg 3DA is certainly not an open system.


Even if there is some open code.

So how do you currently license Mpeg-H 3DA?  (A good expert  
question, probably...  ;-)


(I suppose I have to write to Fraunhofer IIS to treat that. Or will  
you guys at Dolby "help" me to do this? ;-)


Best regards

Stefan

P.S.: Not to overlook that Mpeg-H 3DA Baseline doesn't even support  
HOA, whereas the more complete version Mpeg 3DA LC does...


(Atmos doesn't seem to support HOA either. )

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof  -----

Data: Wed, 3 May 2023 13:54:43 +

De: "Fersch, Christof" 

Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Para: Surround Sound discussion group 


Please also see

https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh

and

https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe

for freely available MPEG-H decoders and encoders, including  
web-plugin for the decoder.


//Christof

From: Sursound  on behalf of Aaron  
Heller 


Date: Tuesday, 2. May 2023 at 22:24

To: Surround Sound discussion group 

Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

There's MPEG-H 3D Audio

   
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaYkwCSiLw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaYkwCSiLw$>


and Google's Draft IETF proposal

 

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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-03 Thread Stefan Schreiber


"Please also see

https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh

and

https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe

"

With all due respect:

I really like Mpeg-H and am following the Mpeg-I development, but Mpeg  
3DA is certainly not an open system.


Even if there is some open code.
So how do you currently license Mpeg-H 3DA?  (A good expert question,  
probably...  ;-)


(I suppose I have to write to Fraunhofer IIS to treat that. Or will  
you guys at Dolby "help" me to do this? ;-)


Best regards

Stefan

P.S.: Not to overlook that Mpeg-H 3DA Baseline doesn't even support  
HOA, whereas the more complete version Mpeg 3DA LC does...


(Atmos doesn't seem to support HOA either. )

- Mensagem de Fersch, Christof  -

Data: Wed, 3 May 2023 13:54:43 +

De: "Fersch, Christof" 

Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Para: Surround Sound discussion group 


Please also see

https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh

and

https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe

for freely available MPEG-H decoders and encoders, including  
web-plugin for the decoder.


//Christof

From: Sursound  on behalf of Aaron  
Heller 


Date: Tuesday, 2. May 2023 at 22:24

To: Surround Sound discussion group 

Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

There's MPEG-H 3D Audio

   
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaYkwCSiLw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaYkwCSiLw$>


and Google's Draft IETF proposal

   
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8486/__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaZ_yj7ZYw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8486/__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaZ_yj7ZYw$>


Aaron Heller

Menlo Park, CA  US

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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-03 Thread Panos Kouvelis

First of all, thank you for publishing Open Access!

Reading it right now.

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas , *MediaFlake Ltd
*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Wed, May 3, 2023 at 11:33 AM Tomasz Rudzki  wrote:

> >
> > and Google's Draft IETF proposal
> >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8486/
>
>
> Here is our latest study evaluating Opus for first, third and fifth-order
> Ambisonics rendered binaurally using Google's Opus patch (Channel Mapping
> Family 3).
>
> https://doi.org/10.17743/jaes.2022.0068
>
> Best,
> TR
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-03 Thread Fersch, Christof

Please also see
https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpegh
and
https://github.com/ittiam-systems/libmpeghe

for freely available MPEG-H decoders and encoders, including web-plugin for the 
decoder.

//Christof

From: Sursound  on behalf of Aaron Heller 

Date: Tuesday, 2. May 2023 at 22:24
To: Surround Sound discussion group 
Subject: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format
There's MPEG-H 3D Audio
   
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaYkwCSiLw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaYkwCSiLw$>
and Google's Draft IETF proposal
   
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8486/__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaZ_yj7ZYw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8486/__;!!HOHtwYw!AsC1o9UYxCMx7E3ZLD9v9t266ETu5nwqqvY8uNBqnP10TNlsxQJQVYPbx3OZC6_wdvUrM7AjMSotFaZ_yj7ZYw$>

Aaron Heller
Menlo Park, CA  US
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-03 Thread Tomasz Rudzki

>
> and Google's Draft IETF proposal
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8486/


Here is our latest study evaluating Opus for first, third and fifth-order
Ambisonics rendered binaurally using Google's Opus patch (Channel Mapping
Family 3).

https://doi.org/10.17743/jaes.2022.0068

Best,
TR
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-02 Thread Aaron Heller

There's MPEG-H 3D Audio
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio
and Google's Draft IETF proposal
   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8486/

Aaron Heller
Menlo Park, CA  US
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-02 Thread Stefan Schreiber

So speaking for my own part in this project (refering to Bo-Erik’s link).

This is not a finished project < yet >. (Publication planned about
June, and it is not all visible on the page yet.)

Otherwise, of course people can take some preview here.

In short: The mixed order structure is of course to enable HOA support
(horizontally) in 8-channel restricted environments.

I wrote about this topic about 10 years ago, on sursound:

https://sursound.music.vt.narkive.com/CBjqIYSt/proposal-for-a-relatively-simple-foa-hoa-standard-request-for-comments

Regarding standardisation, there has to be a significant
update/modernization of this concept, and of course some implemention.

We (or at least I ) won’t do “only browser audio”, recognizing that it
is nice if HOA (we are often using more than 8 channels) can be
decoded and rendered < even > within a browser.

Best,

Stefan

P.S.: It might make more sense to discuss this when things are
published in an orderly way. (Because this should happen quite soonly.)

- Mensagem de Bo-Erik Sandholm -

Data: Tue, 2 May 2023 17:06:25 +0200

De: Bo-Erik Sandholm

Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

Para: Surround Sound discussion group

If interested you can take quick look at what can be done with a

modified version of omnitone for playback in a browser with different

encodings.

Headtracking is possible.

The decoder setup for each file decoding is controlled by a json file.

I apologize in advance for the left right error ( to be corrected).

Different encodings and codecs to try to find the optimum combination.

No channel names are used, and care has to be taken to avoid LFE bandwidth

cut when encoding.

The implementation has somtimes buffering issues, but take your time to

fill the cache for a few of the files.

The software still needs a bit of work,

Dash and HLS can be added.

This supports foa,soa and toa with the addition of mixed formats.

https://www.ohti.xyz

Bosse

On Tue, 2 May 2023, 14:12 Steven Boardman,

wrote:

I agree that ATMOS delivery is more efficient, (stream size wise) but as

mentioned, it isn't great for anything other than theatres, despite what

Dolby and the rest of the bandwagon would like you to believe.

There is no below after all.

For non visual ATMOS delivery I purposely make separate static binaural

mixes, that are derived from native ambisonic/SPS mixes (rather than the

ATMOS binaural downmix).

So when an ATMOS decoder isn't present, the native binaural mix is served

up instead.

These are generally preferred(I also do my stereo mix from the original

rather than an ATMOS downmix).

And as for audio mastering of the object based delivery, you can't, so most

separate stereo mixes i have heard sound better.

If a spatial 'scene' delivery is required, then maybe just use SPS, as that

should be more tolerant of compression ratios than Ambisonics..

Just my $0.01

Steven

On Mon, 1 May 2023, 22:05 Fons Adriaensen, wrote:

On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 06:03:09PM +, Thorsten Michels wrote:

> If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left empty,

with

> digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the decoders can

recognize

> and provide the correct decoding.

That is in-band signalling, and a bad idea for many reasons.

> The order of the channels will be as follows:

Why define speakers positions if the format is Ambisonic ?

It's up to the receiver to decode it, using whatever speaker

positions it has available.

The speaker positions you propose would not even support

a full third order decode.

Apart from that, high order ambisonics is not an efficient

delivery format. It's OK for up to 2nd order or so, maybe

3rd, but above that an object based format (e.g. Atmos)

can provide much better performance for the same channel

count.

Ciao,

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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-02 Thread Stefan Schreiber

“Your proposed mapping could be considered a subset of  
https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.2051-3-202205-I/“


Sorry to say: Definitively not so!

A multichannel ordering L C R Ls does not correspond to recent  
official channel ordering.


Normally you do L R C Lfe etc. This is what you have in the venerable  
Wave format, ITU BS. 775, EBU standards, Mpeg/TV/3GPP standards, on  
optical discs, Webaudio output ordering and nearly everywhere.


I would recommend not to make up some “programmer standards” without  
studying what is already standardized anyway.


Best,

Stefan

P.S.: The proposed order would be “old Dolby cinema order”, extended  
in some pretty arbitrary way. 


- Mensagem de Marc Lavallée  -

 Data: Mon, 1 May 2023 14:27:39 -0400

 De: Marc Lavallée 

 Assunto: Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

 Para: Thorsten Michels 

 Cc: Surround Sound discussion group 


Hi Thorsten,



 Your proposed mapping could be considered a subset of  
https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.2051-3-202205-I/




 Favored loudspeaker layouts for Ambisonics reproduction use the  
same angular increment (in each horizontal ring), but it's also  
possible to decode to all loudspeakers of an irregular array (for  
example as defined in the ITU standard), and it could be better to  
not use all available loudspeakers.




 Marc



 Le 2023-05-01 à 14 h 03, Thorsten Michels a écrit :


Hi all!



 I was wondering too, how to stream a HOA audio stream over the  
web  A N D  make it easily consumable.


 This sounds like a need for a new "standard" to me.



 If it's not there yet, we have to define and build it. Like the  
nice people did when they defined AmbiX.


 I am not a coder, but I think it could be done if someone writes a  
plug-in for a webbrowser ??


 So, if the "specification" is there and agreed, this could be  
proposed to the AES and it can be discussed by a world-wide forum  
of audio engineers and experts.




 Well, then let's start the discussion.



 1. Requirements



 The standard for streaming HOA must be upward and downward  
compatible. So it must not make any difference, if a FOA or 3OA  
stream is transfered.




 If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left  
empty, with digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the  
decoders can recognize it and provide the correct decoding.




 2. Channels and their discription



 The order of the channels will be as follows:



 *Channel**

 * *Description**

 *

 1

 Channel 1 - "Front Left"

 2

 Channel 2 - "Front Center"

 3

 Channel 3 - "Front Right"

 4

 Channel 4 - "Left Surround"

 5

 Channel 5 - "Right Surround"

 6

 Channel 6 - "Surround Mid Left"

 7

 Channel7 - "Surround Mid Right"

 8

 Channel 8 - "High Front Left"

 9

 Channel 9 - "High Front Center"

 10

 Channel 10 - "High Front Right"

 11

 Channel 11 - "High Surround Left "

 12

 Channel 12 -" High Surround Center"

 13

 Channel 13 - "High Surround Right"

 14

 Channel 14 - "High Surround Mid Left"

 15

 Channel 15 - "High Surround Mid Right"

 16

 Channel 16 - "Voice of up above"

 17

 LFE

 18

 Optional Channel 1 (Low Level - Left ?)

 19

 Optional Channel 2 (Low Level - Center?)

 20

 Optional Channel 3 (Low Level - Right?)

 21

 Optional Channel 4 (Low Level - Surround Left?)

 22

 Optional Channel 5 (Low Level - Surround Right?)

 23

 Optional Channel 6 ("Voice from below"?)

 24

 SMPTE TimeCode



 This is my very first suggestion. The names are just names, to  
give some guidance and can be changed if required.


 There is no "prior art" to my knowledge. If there is, I would be  
more than happy to learn about it.




 Let's start the discussion, if this makes sense for this forum.



 Once we found a "final" solution, we propose it to the AES forum  
and see what feedback we'll get.






 Cheers



 Thorsten


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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-02 Thread Panos Kouvelis

That's the only comic strip that comes to mind when I talk about formats,
hehehe :-D

But, the thing is that, this is already invented, before object-based audio
;-) So, the object-based audio is the extra format in our case.

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas , *MediaFlake Ltd
*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 10:39 AM Peter P.  wrote:

> * Panos Kouvelis  [2023-05-01 23:50]:
> [...]
> > My dream format is HOA plus objects and virtual acoustics calculated and
> > rendered on the decoder. Probably an .exe file produced in Unreal Engine
> > with a binary that can run into various platforms. :-)
> https://xkcd.com/927/
>
> ;)
>
> P
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-02 Thread Bo-Erik Sandholm

If interested you can take quick look at what can be done with a
modified version of omnitone for playback in a browser with different
encodings.
Headtracking is possible.

The decoder setup for each file decoding is controlled by a json file.

I apologize in advance for the left right error ( to be corrected).

Different encodings and codecs to try to find the optimum combination.

No channel names are used, and care has to  be taken to avoid LFE bandwidth
cut when encoding.

The implementation has somtimes buffering issues, but take your time to
fill the cache for a few of the files.

The software still needs a bit of work,
Dash and HLS can be added.

This supports foa,soa and toa with the addition of mixed formats.

https://www.ohti.xyz

BR
Bosse




On Tue, 2 May 2023, 14:12 Steven Boardman, 
wrote:

> I agree that ATMOS delivery is more efficient, (stream size wise) but as
> mentioned, it isn't great for anything other than theatres, despite what
> Dolby and the rest of the bandwagon would like you to believe.
> There is no below after all.
> For non visual ATMOS delivery I purposely make separate static binaural
> mixes, that are derived from native ambisonic/SPS mixes (rather than the
> ATMOS binaural downmix).
> So when an ATMOS decoder isn't present, the native binaural mix is served
> up instead.
> These are generally preferred(I also do my stereo mix from the original
> rather than an ATMOS downmix).
> And as for audio mastering of the object based delivery, you can't, so most
> separate stereo mixes i have heard sound better.
> If a spatial 'scene' delivery is required, then maybe just use SPS, as that
> should be more tolerant of compression ratios than Ambisonics..
>
> Just my $0.01
>
> Steven
>
>
> On Mon, 1 May 2023, 22:05 Fons Adriaensen,  wrote:
>
> > On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 06:03:09PM +, Thorsten Michels wrote:
> >
> > > If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left empty,
> with
> > > digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the decoders can
> recognize
> > it
> > > and provide the correct decoding.
> >
> > That is in-band signalling, and a bad idea for many reasons.
> >
> > > The order of the channels will be as follows:
> >
> > Why define speakers positions if the format is Ambisonic ?
> > It's up to the receiver to decode it, using whatever speaker
> > positions it has available.
> >
> > The speaker positions you propose would not even support
> > a full third order decode.
> >
> > Apart from that, high order ambisonics is not an efficient
> > delivery format. It's OK for up to 2nd order or so, maybe
> > 3rd, but above that an object based format (e.g. Atmos)
> > can provide much better performance for the same channel
> > count.
> >
> > Ciao,
> >
> > --
> > FA
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-02 Thread Steven Boardman

I agree that ATMOS delivery is more efficient, (stream size wise) but as
mentioned, it isn't great for anything other than theatres, despite what
Dolby and the rest of the bandwagon would like you to believe.
There is no below after all.
For non visual ATMOS delivery I purposely make separate static binaural
mixes, that are derived from native ambisonic/SPS mixes (rather than the
ATMOS binaural downmix).
So when an ATMOS decoder isn't present, the native binaural mix is served
up instead.
These are generally preferred(I also do my stereo mix from the original
rather than an ATMOS downmix).
And as for audio mastering of the object based delivery, you can't, so most
separate stereo mixes i have heard sound better.
If a spatial 'scene' delivery is required, then maybe just use SPS, as that
should be more tolerant of compression ratios than Ambisonics..

Just my $0.01

Steven

On Mon, 1 May 2023, 22:05 Fons Adriaensen,  wrote:

> On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 06:03:09PM +, Thorsten Michels wrote:
>
> > If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left empty, with
> > digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the decoders can recognize
> it
> > and provide the correct decoding.
>
> That is in-band signalling, and a bad idea for many reasons.
>
> > The order of the channels will be as follows:
>
> Why define speakers positions if the format is Ambisonic ?
> It's up to the receiver to decode it, using whatever speaker
> positions it has available.
>
> The speaker positions you propose would not even support
> a full third order decode.
>
> Apart from that, high order ambisonics is not an efficient
> delivery format. It's OK for up to 2nd order or so, maybe
> 3rd, but above that an object based format (e.g. Atmos)
> can provide much better performance for the same channel
> count.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-02 Thread Peter P.

* Panos Kouvelis  [2023-05-01 23:50]:
[...]
> My dream format is HOA plus objects and virtual acoustics calculated and
> rendered on the decoder. Probably an .exe file produced in Unreal Engine
> with a binary that can run into various platforms. :-)
https://xkcd.com/927/

;)

P
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-01 Thread Panos Kouvelis

I totally agree with your comments Fons.

I would like to add that I would defend Ambisonics against Object-Based
formats, because the current implementation makes it very difficult to
manage the dynamics of groups as a whole, making them a bad format for
music. Also, again,m in their current implementation, if you print your
reverb returns into beds (Atmos) or Ambisonic layers (EAR, MPEG-H
Production Suite), then depending on the movement rendering of the objects
in large speaker configurations, you can get an object separated from its
reflections location-wise.

I believe that to compare different philosophies of immersive audio
authoring and delivery, we first need to define "performance" and "quality
in use/perceived quality".

I believe that Atmos is ok for theaters and audio for screen-based media,
but not much else. Ambisonics is good with holophonic experiences like
games, VR, and delivering to ambiguous setups.

My dream format is HOA plus objects and virtual acoustics calculated and
rendered on the decoder. Probably an .exe file produced in Unreal Engine
with a binary that can run into various platforms. :-)

Cheers!

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas , *MediaFlake Ltd
*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools

On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 12:05 AM Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 06:03:09PM +, Thorsten Michels wrote:
>
> > If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left empty, with
> > digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the decoders can recognize
> it
> > and provide the correct decoding.
>
> That is in-band signalling, and a bad idea for many reasons.
>
> > The order of the channels will be as follows:
>
> Why define speakers positions if the format is Ambisonic ?
> It's up to the receiver to decode it, using whatever speaker
> positions it has available.
>
> The speaker positions you propose would not even support
> a full third order decode.
>
> Apart from that, high order ambisonics is not an efficient
> delivery format. It's OK for up to 2nd order or so, maybe
> 3rd, but above that an object based format (e.g. Atmos)
> can provide much better performance for the same channel
> count.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-01 Thread Brendan Baker

I'd like to urge anyone thinking about web streaming formats to also
consider how such a format could be used within the existing RSS-based
podcast delivery infrastructure.

If there were an open format that had a reasonably good balance of file
size/channel number/spatial resolution, and one could deliver that format
via podcast RSS, it would open up all sorts of creativity for audio
storytellers, documentarians, radio drama, and other more "cinematic" audio
programs.

Obviously this would require podcast apps/players that could decode HOA or
other spatial formats into either binaural or channel-based playback
systems--and I don't know of any that do at the moment. But this all seems
technically doable.

(Please get in contact with me if you happen to be involved in anything
like this!)

- Brendan
--
Brendan P. Baker
brendanpatrickbaker.com
Twitter: @brendanpbaker 

On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 5:05 PM Fons Adriaensen  wrote:

> On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 06:03:09PM +, Thorsten Michels wrote:
>
> > If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left empty, with
> > digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the decoders can recognize
> it
> > and provide the correct decoding.
>
> That is in-band signalling, and a bad idea for many reasons.
>
> > The order of the channels will be as follows:
>
> Why define speakers positions if the format is Ambisonic ?
> It's up to the receiver to decode it, using whatever speaker
> positions it has available.
>
> The speaker positions you propose would not even support
> a full third order decode.
>
> Apart from that, high order ambisonics is not an efficient
> delivery format. It's OK for up to 2nd order or so, maybe
> 3rd, but above that an object based format (e.g. Atmos)
> can provide much better performance for the same channel
> count.
>
> Ciao,
>
> --
> FA
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-01 Thread Fons Adriaensen

On Mon, May 01, 2023 at 06:03:09PM +, Thorsten Michels wrote:

> If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left empty, with
> digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the decoders can recognize it
> and provide the correct decoding.

That is in-band signalling, and a bad idea for many reasons.

> The order of the channels will be as follows:

Why define speakers positions if the format is Ambisonic ?
It's up to the receiver to decode it, using whatever speaker
positions it has available.

The speaker positions you propose would not even support
a full third order decode.

Apart from that, high order ambisonics is not an efficient
delivery format. It's OK for up to 2nd order or so, maybe
3rd, but above that an object based format (e.g. Atmos)
can provide much better performance for the same channel
count.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

2023-05-01 Thread Marc Lavallée


Hi Thorsten,

Your proposed mapping could be considered a subset of 
https://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.2051-3-202205-I/


Favored loudspeaker layouts for Ambisonics reproduction use the same 
angular increment (in each horizontal ring), but it's also possible to 
decode to all loudspeakers of an irregular array (for example as defined 
in the ITU standard), and it could be better to not use all available 
loudspeakers.


Marc

Le 2023-05-01 à 14 h 03, Thorsten Michels a écrit :

Hi all!

I was wondering too, how to stream a HOA audio stream over the web  A 
N D  make it easily consumable.

This sounds like a need for a new "standard" to me.

If it's not there yet, we have to define and build it. Like the nice 
people did when they defined AmbiX.
I am not a coder, but I think it could be done if someone writes a 
plug-in for a webbrowser ??
So, if the "specification" is there and agreed, this could be proposed 
to the AES and it can be discussed by a world-wide forum of audio 
engineers and experts.


Well, then let's start the discussion.

1. Requirements

The standard for streaming HOA must be upward and downward compatible. 
So it must not make any difference, if a FOA or 3OA stream is transfered.


If a lower order is streamed, the other channels will be left empty, 
with digital "0", meaning absolutely NO signal. So the decoders can 
recognize it and provide the correct decoding.


2. Channels and their discription

The order of the channels will be as follows:

*Channel**
* *Description**
*
1
Channel 1 - "Front Left"
2
Channel 2 - "Front Center"
3
Channel 3 - "Front Right"
4
Channel 4 - "Left Surround"
5
Channel 5 - "Right Surround"
6
Channel 6 - "Surround Mid Left"
7
Channel7 - "Surround Mid Right"
8
Channel 8 - "High Front Left"
9
Channel 9 - "High Front Center"
10
Channel 10 - "High Front Right"
11
Channel 11 - "High Surround Left "
12
Channel 12 -" High Surround Center"
13
Channel 13 - "High Surround Right"
14
Channel 14 - "High Surround Mid Left"
15
Channel 15 - "High Surround Mid Right"
16
Channel 16 - "Voice of up above"
17
LFE
18
Optional Channel 1 (Low Level - Left ?)
19
Optional Channel 2 (Low Level - Center?)
20
Optional Channel 3 (Low Level - Right?)
21
Optional Channel 4 (Low Level - Surround Left?)
22
Optional Channel 5 (Low Level - Surround Right?)
23
Optional Channel 6 ("Voice from below"?)
24
SMPTE TimeCode

This is my very first suggestion. The names are just names, to give 
some guidance and can be changed if required.
There is no "prior art" to my knowledge. If there is, I would be more 
than happy to learn about it.


Let's start the discussion, if this makes sense for this forum.

Once we found a "final" solution, we propose it to the AES forum and 
see what feedback we'll get.



Cheers

Thorsten

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Re: [Sursound] [Proposal] for HOA web-streaming-format

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