Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Pierre Alexandre Tremblay]

> I guess the question is whether the reverb is 1x4 or 4x4. 1x4 is easy enough
> to measure and use with standard techniques, but 4x4 is trickier as you'd
> need to collect impulse responses from a range of source locations in the
> room (effectively the 4x says that you want the reverb to vary with the
> input direction(/distance?), which needs measurement). Entirely possible
> though - if anyone has such a set of responses I'd be very interested in a
> play... (?)

that is what we did for Thinking Inside the Box: many sweeps recorded (The five 
destinations were on-axis XY (matched DPA 4011s), on-axis 5.0 (matched DPA 
4006s-11s in a decca tree), on-axis binaural (Neumann KU100), off-centred AB 
(matched DPA 4006s) and off-centred XY (matched DPA 4021s).) then postprocessed 
together to keep relative levels and delays.

I have recorded the WXYZ but I didn't bother to deconvolve at the time: this 
was before Jörn convinced me of ambisonics in high order... I will try to find 
the sweeps and will post them here if I manage to find them, otherwise I might 
just ask a student to redo them.

In the meantime, the other IRs are available for free to download:

http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/4081/

p
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[fons]

On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 03:04:35PM +0100, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:

> i have been dreaming of a b-format IR that will do the correct thing for
> any b-format input, but i couldn't quite get my head around how to do
> the measurement in real life... is that what you had in mind, too?

(limiting to horizontal only to keeps things simple)

Given eg FL, FR, BL and BR impulse responses it's certainly possible
to combine them into a 3*4 matrix that would accept W,X,Y as input.
For any direction the output would be a weighted sum of the four
original IRs, with the ones closest to the right direction being the
strongest. This can be combined with the ER/tail separation as well.

As with many things AMB, first order will be a crude approximation.
But given 8 IRs (as for the CdS one that comes with jconvolver),
the input could be 3rd order horizontal. 

But anyway this would just be the same as a combination of a decoder
and a reverb taking N discrete directions as input. Implementing
things that way could be more efficient.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

There are three of them, and Alleline.

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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 12/18/2010 05:33 AM, Sampo Syreeni wrote:
> On 2010-12-03, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote:
> 
>> How would the IR reverb have to be "optimized" for ambisonics?
>> Convolution is convolution is convolution, right?
> 
> No, it ain't. Nobody does full 4x4 convolution; even the simplest case.
> We optimize both using simple statistics, and the more powerful
> psychoacoustics.

what guru fons does in the b-format reverbs that come with jconvolver is
this:

* measure a set of N 1x4 IRs from different positions into a b-format
microphone at the desired listening spot (using sine sweeps)
* truncate these after the early reflection phase
* assume the late reverb is the same for all positions, so retain only
one copy of that
* provide a convolution matrix with N+1 inputs, consisting of all the
positions plus one path for the late reverb.

works very well.

sampo, i was wondering: what do you mean by a 4x4 matrix?

i have been dreaming of a b-format IR that will do the correct thing for
any b-format input, but i couldn't quite get my head around how to do
the measurement in real life... is that what you had in mind, too?

it would be cool to have an anechoic b-format recording and then
convolve it with a 4x4 room IR that will get stuff right... (in fact, i
could use one right now, because the IR sets that i have lack a number
of positions i'd need).


-- 
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio), Elektrofachkraft
Audio and event engineer - Ambisonic surround recordings

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Ronald C.F. Antony]

On 18 Dec 2010, at 05:34, Richard Furse wrote:
> I keep meaning to find time to put some things like this in VST plugins, but
> it's hard to justify the time when DAWs still make Ambisonics hard to work
> with... Anyone aware of any progress/potential partners there? I've not
> really looked for a while.

CoreAudio has the required flexibility in the plumbing. The fact that 
mainstream DAWs don't take advantage of it properly should not be a hindrance 
to doing a CoreAudio plug-in. I guess, it's one of these chicken-egg things, 
and there won't be any demand that forces commercial DAW software developers to 
make the required changes if the tools aren't there in the first place that 
people can point to saying that DAW X is incapable or running plug-in Y in the 
proper semantic context.

VST is in that sense almost hopeless, because it lacks any properly defined 
semantics, and it's all pretty much ad-hoc and at the whim of whatever 
Steinberg needs to be present in its own DAW software packages. CoreAudio is 
much more generalized and thought out, and much more independent of any 
particular DAW's requirements. Of course, in exchange, it's Mac OS X only.

Ronald
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Richard Furse]

Hmm - catching up with this conversation rather late...

I guess the question is whether the reverb is 1x4 or 4x4. 1x4 is easy enough
to measure and use with standard techniques, but 4x4 is trickier as you'd
need to collect impulse responses from a range of source locations in the
room (effectively the 4x says that you want the reverb to vary with the
input direction(/distance?), which needs measurement). Entirely possible
though - if anyone has such a set of responses I'd be very interested in a
play... (?)

The reverb in the Rapture3D game engine is written from the ground up for
Ambisonics and uses a 4x4 form, though the late reflections are actually
only 1x4. But it's not a convolution reverb because the controls all have to
be dynamic, and games use several of them so the CPU budget is small. I
could probably generate some 4x4 IRs from it with some contortion, but I
suspect it'd always be much more efficient to just run it, for all but very
short decays.

I keep meaning to find time to put some things like this in VST plugins, but
it's hard to justify the time when DAWs still make Ambisonics hard to work
with... Anyone aware of any progress/potential partners there? I've not
really looked for a while.

Best wishes,

--Richard

-Original Message-
From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
On Behalf Of Sampo Syreeni
Sent: 18 December 2010 04:34
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

On 2010-12-03, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote:

> How would the IR reverb have to be "optimized" for ambisonics? 
> Convolution is convolution is convolution, right?

No, it ain't. Nobody does full 4x4 convolution; even the simplest case. 
We optimize both using simple statistics, and the more powerful
psychoacoustics.

> The key question is what IR files you feed the reverb as a basis to do 
> its convolution, and these have to be made with ambisonics in mind, 
> e.g. created from B-format recording of starter pistol shots, or 
> equivalent synthetic B-format "events".

Which ever means you use, those files as well will be pretty much random.
Not something you can simplify easily. So then you will have to employ some
magic to make them easily computable -- or parallize neatly enough, which is
also an option nowadays. We do have lots of cheap, low-power, low-heat, and
fast-as-parallel-only workhorse going for us.
--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Ronald C.F. Antony]

Sent from my mobile phone

On 17 Dec 2010, at 23:33, Sampo Syreeni  wrote:

> On 2010-12-03, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote:
> 
>> How would the IR reverb have to be "optimized" for ambisonics? Convolution 
>> is convolution is convolution, right?
> 
> No, it ain't. Nobody does full 4x4 convolution; even the simplest case. We 
> optimize both using simple statistics, and the more powerful psychoacoustics.

OK, but how's that different from any of the commercially available convolution 
reverbs used for surround sound? Would they use different optimizations for the 
convolution or would it be sufficient to use appropriate IR files?
I know that e.g. Logic's Space designer comes with some B-format or 
B-format-derived IR files.
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2010-12-03, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote:

How would the IR reverb have to be "optimized" for ambisonics? 
Convolution is convolution is convolution, right?


No, it ain't. Nobody does full 4x4 convolution; even the simplest case. 
We optimize both using simple statistics, and the more powerful 
psychoacoustics.


The key question is what IR files you feed the reverb as a basis to do 
its convolution, and these have to be made with ambisonics in mind, 
e.g. created from B-format recording of starter pistol shots, or 
equivalent synthetic B-format "events".


Which ever means you use, those files as well will be pretty much 
random. Not something you can simplify easily. So then you will have to 
employ some magic to make them easily computable -- or parallize neatly 
enough, which is also an option nowadays. We do have lots of cheap, 
low-power, low-heat, and fast-as-parallel-only workhorse going for us.

--
Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Joseph Anderson]

An interesting delay effect I've used:


W --->|   | ---> | Delay1 | --->|   | ---> W'
X ---> | B-format | ---> | Delay2  |--->| A-format | ---> X'
Y ---> |  to | ---> | Delay3 |---> |  to | ---> Y'
Z ---> | A-format | ---> | Delay4 |---> | B-format | ---> Z'


Delays 1-N are separate delay lengths. The B to A-format conversion splits the 
input soundfield into four separate sectors. (I think of them as slices of pie!)

The resulting delay splits the soundfield up--so that different parts are 
delayed differently.

I usually throw in a rotation (...tilt, tumble...) or two to liven things up.


Easy to do w/ Csound, MaxMSP, Pd, SuperCollider, Bidule, etc



My best,


~~~
Dr Joseph Anderson
Lecturer in Music

School of Arts and New Media
University of Hull, Scarborough Campus,
Scarborough, North Yorkshire, YO11 3AZ, UK

T: +44.(0)1723.357341 T: +44.(0)1723.357370 F: +44.(0)1723.350815
~~~





-Original Message-
From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu on behalf of Dave Malham
Sent: Thu 12/02/2010 9:41 AM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...
 
That's very similar, in fact, to the field delay function  Dylan had in his 
LAmb software for the 
SGI Indy computer, back in 1996...

On 02/12/2010 09:11, Trond Lossius wrote:
> I would imaging that you could build this in a pretty straight-forward way 
> using e.g. Max or Bidule by combining one or more 4-channel delays (same 
> delay time on all four channels) and a plugin for rotating the B-format 
> signal, also adding feedback to the system.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Trond
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2010, at 1:00 AM, George Kierstein wrote:
>
>> I was thinking of one that would bounce point sources placed in a sound
>> field around with a given timing and relative placement -- akin to stereo
>> echo-delay.
>>
>> I've found quite a few nice plugins that will place/pan a source into a
>> conceptual field, but once you have sent it into the encoding chain the only
>> way I can currently see to emulate a delay would be rather manual.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Paul Hodgeswrote:
>>
>>> --On 01 December 2010 18:20 -0500 George Kierstein
>>>   wrote:
>>>
>>>> ambisonic delay plugin
>>> What would make a delay ambisonic?
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul Hodges
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[fons]

On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 05:31:50PM -0500, Josh Atkins wrote:

> This may be of interest:
> At the last ICASSP meeting Rebecca Stewart and Mark Sandler presented a
> database of measured B-format IRs ... the dataset is free and can be
> downloaded here:
> http://isophonics.net/content/room-impulse-response-data-set
> 
> I believe A.Farina is doing a lot of work in this area as well.

He did, several years ago. Prof. Farina originally announced that
results would be availiable to all, but this turned out not to be
the case. The work was sponsored by Waves, and you need a Waves
license to have access to the IRs.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

There are three of them, and Alleline.

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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Ronald C.F. Antony]

On 3 Dec 2010, at 16:44, Sampo Syreeni wrote:

> On 2010-12-02, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote:
> 
>> There are ambisonic IR reverbs. So basically, what you'd need to have or 
>> calculate would be an IR, and then any multi-channel convolving reverb 
>> should be able to do it, i.e. things like SpaceDesigner or AltiVerb.
> 
> There are. But I for one have never seen an ambisonic optimized reverb 
> design. It would have to be an IR one to be efficient, yes. But I've never 
> seen one as an explicit, optimized for ambisonic design.

How would the IR reverb have to be "optimized" for ambisonics? Convolution is 
convolution is convolution, right? The key question is what IR files you feed 
the reverb as a basis to do its convolution, and these have to be made with 
ambisonics in mind, e.g. created from B-format recording of starter pistol 
shots, or equivalent synthetic B-format "events".

Ronald

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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Josh Atkins]

This may be of interest:
At the last ICASSP meeting Rebecca Stewart and Mark Sandler presented a
database of measured B-format IRs ... the dataset is free and can be
downloaded here:
http://isophonics.net/content/room-impulse-response-data-set

I believe A.Farina is doing a lot of work in this area as well.

Josh

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Sampo Syreeni  wrote:

> On 2010-12-02, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote:
>
>  There are ambisonic IR reverbs. So basically, what you'd need to have or
>> calculate would be an IR, and then any multi-channel convolving reverb
>> should be able to do it, i.e. things like SpaceDesigner or AltiVerb.
>>
>
> There are. But I for one have never seen an ambisonic optimized reverb
> design. It would have to be an IR one to be efficient, yes. But I've never
> seen one as an explicit, optimized for ambisonic design.
> --
> Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy - de...@iki.fi, http://decoy.iki.fi/front
> +358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
>
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>



-- 
Joshua Atkins
Ph.D. Candidate
Dept. Electrical Engineering
Johns Hopkins University
3400 North Charles Street
Baltimore, Maryland 21218
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Sampo Syreeni]

On 2010-12-02, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote:

There are ambisonic IR reverbs. So basically, what you'd need to have 
or calculate would be an IR, and then any multi-channel convolving 
reverb should be able to do it, i.e. things like SpaceDesigner or 
AltiVerb.


There are. But I for one have never seen an ambisonic optimized reverb 
design. It would have to be an IR one to be efficient, yes. But I've 
never seen one as an explicit, optimized for ambisonic design.

--
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+358-50-5756111, 025E D175 ABE5 027C 9494 EEB0 E090 8BA9 0509 85C2
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[George Kierstein]

OOooh, what are the ambisonic IR reverbs called or are the mentioned
multi-channel convolving reverbs essentially the same thing ?

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 2:55 AM, Ronald C.F. Antony wrote:

> There are ambisonic IR reverbs. So basically, what you'd need to have or
> calculate would be an IR, and then any multi-channel convolving reverb
> should be able to do it, i.e. things like SpaceDesigner or AltiVerb.
>
> Ronald
>
> On 1 Dec 2010, at 18:20, George Kierstein wrote:
>
> > Is the such a thing as an ambisonic delay plugin ?That would be
> nifty!
> > Thanks
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Dave Malham]

That's very similar, in fact, to the field delay function  Dylan had in his LAmb software for the 
SGI Indy computer, back in 1996...


On 02/12/2010 09:11, Trond Lossius wrote:

I would imaging that you could build this in a pretty straight-forward way 
using e.g. Max or Bidule by combining one or more 4-channel delays (same delay 
time on all four channels) and a plugin for rotating the B-format signal, also 
adding feedback to the system.


Cheers,
Trond


On Dec 2, 2010, at 1:00 AM, George Kierstein wrote:


I was thinking of one that would bounce point sources placed in a sound
field around with a given timing and relative placement -- akin to stereo
echo-delay.

I've found quite a few nice plugins that will place/pan a source into a
conceptual field, but once you have sent it into the encoding chain the only
way I can currently see to emulate a delay would be rather manual.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Paul Hodgeswrote:


--On 01 December 2010 18:20 -0500 George Kierstein
  wrote:


ambisonic delay plugin

What would make a delay ambisonic?

Paul

--
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Trond Lossius]

I would imaging that you could build this in a pretty straight-forward way 
using e.g. Max or Bidule by combining one or more 4-channel delays (same delay 
time on all four channels) and a plugin for rotating the B-format signal, also 
adding feedback to the system.


Cheers,
Trond


On Dec 2, 2010, at 1:00 AM, George Kierstein wrote:

> I was thinking of one that would bounce point sources placed in a sound
> field around with a given timing and relative placement -- akin to stereo
> echo-delay.
> 
> I've found quite a few nice plugins that will place/pan a source into a
> conceptual field, but once you have sent it into the encoding chain the only
> way I can currently see to emulate a delay would be rather manual.
> 
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Paul Hodges wrote:
> 
>> --On 01 December 2010 18:20 -0500 George Kierstein
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> ambisonic delay plugin
>> 
>> What would make a delay ambisonic?
>> 
>> Paul
>> 
>> --
>> Paul Hodges
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Dave Malham]

This would be relatively easy to do using your DAW*** of choice's automation using a combination of 
existing panner plugins plus some delay plugins...


Dave

*** always assuming it deals with multichannel audio (and plugins) in a sane way, unlike some I 
could mention!


On 02/12/2010 00:00, George Kierstein wrote:

I was thinking of one that would bounce point sources placed in a sound
field around with a given timing and relative placement -- akin to stereo
echo-delay.

I've found quite a few nice plugins that will place/pan a source into a
conceptual field, but once you have sent it into the encoding chain the only
way I can currently see to emulate a delay would be rather manual.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Paul Hodgeswrote:


--On 01 December 2010 18:20 -0500 George Kierstein
  wrote:


ambisonic delay plugin

What would make a delay ambisonic?

Paul

--
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Ronald C.F. Antony]

There are ambisonic IR reverbs. So basically, what you'd need to have or 
calculate would be an IR, and then any multi-channel convolving reverb should 
be able to do it, i.e. things like SpaceDesigner or AltiVerb.

Ronald

On 1 Dec 2010, at 18:20, George Kierstein wrote:

> Is the such a thing as an ambisonic delay plugin ?That would be nifty!
> Thanks
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[George Kierstein]

I was thinking of one that would bounce point sources placed in a sound
field around with a given timing and relative placement -- akin to stereo
echo-delay.

I've found quite a few nice plugins that will place/pan a source into a
conceptual field, but once you have sent it into the encoding chain the only
way I can currently see to emulate a delay would be rather manual.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Paul Hodges wrote:

> --On 01 December 2010 18:20 -0500 George Kierstein
>  wrote:
>
> > ambisonic delay plugin
>
> What would make a delay ambisonic?
>
> Paul
>
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>
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Re: [Sursound] Another plugin inquiry...

[Paul Hodges]

--On 01 December 2010 18:20 -0500 George Kierstein
 wrote:

> ambisonic delay plugin

What would make a delay ambisonic?

Paul

-- 
Paul Hodges


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