Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false

[Harmon Seaver]

On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 09:25:51PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >check out http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/fuelcell.htm
> 
> Has anyone here any experience with investigating biofuel use in fuel cells?
> All I know is that MDTL is very clearly interested in using ethanol in micro
> fuel cells.  But in the arena of mid-to-large-size fuel cells, I hear very
> little about biofuels.  This is not surprising because somehow anything not
> oil-company-sold is not highly-investigated, but there simply must be some
> research into using ethanol and biodiesel in fuel cells.  I've seen it
> characterized as difficult, but I've been expecting at some point a fuel cell
> maker to announce that they're quite useable.
> 

   Somewhere I've got some URLs about some German, IIRC, companies working on
biomass gasification combined with fuel cells.


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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Re: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[ajaysoni]

I would like to have a copy of Us patent on Continuous manufacture of
absolute alcohol.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


 
"F. Marc de  
Piolenc" To: Biofuel List
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]   
om.com>  cc: 
 Subject: [biofuel]  
04/30/02 Continuous manufacture of   
07:14 PM absolute alcohol
Please   
respond to   
biofuel  
 
 





While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?

Marc de Piolenc
Iligan, Philippines
--
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin




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Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>check out http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/fuelcell.htm

Has anyone here any experience with investigating biofuel use in fuel cells?
All I know is that MDTL is very clearly interested in using ethanol in micro
fuel cells.  But in the arena of mid-to-large-size fuel cells, I hear very
little about biofuels.  This is not surprising because somehow anything not
oil-company-sold is not highly-investigated, but there simply must be some
research into using ethanol and biodiesel in fuel cells.  I've seen it
characterized as difficult, but I've been expecting at some point a fuel cell
maker to announce that they're quite useable.

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Re: [biofuel] Re: Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I'm also sure that if I could find a backer for that amount, there 
>will be another hurdle beyond this one.
> I'm in a holding pattern now, until after the elections. Depending 
>on the outcome, I'll determine how to proceed from there.
>
> Until I get this resolved, I am working on other interests on a MUCH 
>smaller scale, and self-financed. 
>
>Motie

Obviously, this was a really intriguing exposition.  I will look forward to your
sharing of further developments, if possible.  A few thoughts:

In the U.S., over the last twenty years or so, we've seen some real increase in
discussion of creators' rights, _in a way_, on the copyright side of things.  At
first this was really focused on the computer software copyright issue.
Recently, that has been extended to the effort to protect music and video
creators' rights, since music and video have become de facto computer files
(though they are not active programs generally).

I think it would be false and overly simplistic to summarize that computer
software creators have fully adequate and excellent copyright protection, or
that they are on the other hand as helpless as energy-device inventors.  The
answer is probably that copyright protection for the little guy is not that bad,
with some effort, but could stand improvement, that it's certainly true
sometimes that copyrights to software are violated, but that on the balance,
part of the reason we've seen such a massive growth in this industry has been
precisely because there is some protection afforded individual writers of
software, by our legal system.

No doubt about it, this can be a bit misleading, because there are probably
myriad times when giant corporations a la Microsoft treat others' copyrights
with the disdain that they would instantly decry were the same done to their own
copyrights, and with not only financial clout but some psychology on their side
(what creator whose love of their invention kept them going wants to tear
himself away and spend years in court), they have doubtless won a few times
where they should have lost.

Likewise, despite the recent publicity brought to the issue of protection for
artistic works, even a foolproof crackdown on art-file-piracy would not
guarantee artists' rights.  There is every evidence that large corporations have
at times, or systematically, benefitted in an imbalanced way from their
publication of various artists' work, while not adequately paying them the
agreed-upon amount, or that the agreed-upon amounts have been unduly too low due
precisely to the fact that the artists on their own could not only not afford
production of their work but could not afford legal protection of it.  This
infuriating problem... the fact that the cost of protection of great creations
is regarded as a de facto blackmail item in bending the arms of creators to do
business with large protection rackets, I mean companies, is I think a part of
things.  Not to say that I think things are this simple, just making the
argument.

I see none of this discussion going on with respect to patents, energy device
inventions, or other inventions, outside of computers.  In order for things to
progress from increased-public-discourse-and-attention to real legal change, I
think it would take a long time (decades?) so there is a long way to go.

I thought this reading was instructive on following the costs of patent
protection.  I am not recommending the company:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020213/dew024_1.html

It is perhaps arguable that a reason for many inventors to be involved with
small companies going public is, primarily, because without this process they
wouldn't be able to afford patent protection on top of product development sales
and marketing costs.  Pity.  We are very far removed from the days of Tom
Edison.

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[biofuel] Re: 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[motie_d]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thaks for the compliment. Anyhow, I just made a mini 1 lt batch and
> repeating the BD preparation processs I«m seeing the glyc first 
produced
> still needs a couple of minutes to settle gather up at the bottom. 
More
> miportant still, I had also forgotten the methoxide mixed in it and 
would be
> removed if I took away the glyc. -thanks for the reminder-. I think 
we won«t
> be seeing how spiral galaxies influence the BD manufacture process 
for now.
> 
> Well, it takes many failures to get to a good improvement. Anyway 
it was
> worth the chat.
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Christian
> 
> 


 It may not have use for Biodiesel production, but I can see 
potential in other areas, such as removing dead Yeasts and sludge 
from the bottom of a fermenter. Instead of decanting the 'good stuff' 
into a secondary fermenter, simply remove the 'bad stuff' from the 
container it's already in, and proceed with secondary fermentation.
 I'm sure there are other uses for the idea also.

Motie


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[biofuel] Rapeseed oil as fuel

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc.]

Suggest  saving this one.


http://www.chalmers.se/Nyheter/2001/vecka08/rapsolja.html


Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
www.biofuels.ca




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[biofuel] methanol

[r . p . kurz]

has anyone in the group produced their own methanol
from wood gas?
 regards,roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

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[biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[shoprat06488]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Marc
> 
> I would like a copy of that if you would.
> 
> George
> 
> >> >-- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > > While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US 
Patent
> >> > > 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of 
Absolute
> >> > > Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
> >> > >
> >> > > Marc de Piolenc
> >> > > Iligan, Philippines
> 
> i also would like a copy.
   regards,roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> 
> __
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RE: RE: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[georgelola]

Marc

I would like a copy of that if you would.

George

>> >-- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > > While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
>> > > 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
>> > > Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
>> > >
>> > > Marc de Piolenc
>> > > Iligan, Philippines



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[Martin Klingensmith]

Of course!
and if you can't legally... I won't tell.
I'm going to look into this system as well, hopefully it isn't too complicated
or chemically-prohibitive.
-Martin

--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Sure, I could do that. I was just about to say "Me too please!" Marc, 
> but this might save you some trouble?
> 
> What's the rule? I think you can make a patented something for 
> experimentation or education or your own use, can't you?
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> > 


=
-Martin Klingensmith
http://archive.nnytech.net/
http://devzero.ath.cx/
http://www.nnytech.net/


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RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again

[kirk]

They changed the way of measuring octane rating.
Ethyl alcohol was 100 under the old system. Probably a higher number under
the new system.
Optimum compression is just before it detonates.
Race cars ran 13.5 to 1 with alcohol. The more you put your foot in
something the hotter it gets. If racers ran 13.5 to 1 grandma could probably
run a but higher.
Fuel efficiency is directly proportional to compression ratio.

Kirk

-Original Message-
From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:34 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman??
again


steve spence wrote:
>
> Gasoline is ~118,000 BTU/gallon
> Diesel is ~135,000 BTU/gallon
> Ethanol is ~80,000 BTU/gallon
> BioDiesel is ~117,000 BTU/gallon
>
> this, btw, is very interesting. take the time to go through it all.
>
>
http://www.tc.gc.ca/envaffairs/climate/doc_converti/Etoh/ETOH-FNL-RPTAug30-1
999.htm
>
> http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm
>
> http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/questions.html

 Thank you Steve!  Have not read through entirely but question
 energy value that does not, I think, consider Internal Combustion (IC)
 engine compression ratio (CR) and ethanol OH, octane boost.

 For example (e.g.):
 http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm
 "The energy value of a gallon of ethanol varies from
 75,700 BTU 84,000 BTU depending on burning temperature.
 We will use a figure of 80,000 BTU as this is the
 energy value of ethanol burning at 25 degrees C."

 If eye remember correctly 100% ethanol optimally utilizes  about  12:1 CR.
 As the ethanol to gasoline ratio increases ideally so should CR.
 With increased compression also temperature.  I don't have a link at this
 time but what I understand is ethanol to gasoline relationship begins
 to balance or equalize efficiency (mpg) when engine/fuel specific CR is
observed.
 The OH provides a measurable increase in complete combustion magnified by
 CR (ideally) suitable for ethanol octane rating.

 I believe I read this as well in the The Mother Earth News (TMEN) article
 about their ethanol pick up truck conversion or Steve or Keith's site
 on ethanol production.

 What I've observed with my GeMe is increased mpg with E-10/gasohol more
then not.
 The station pumps reads:  gasoline 87 octane,  E-10/gasohol 89 octane.

 Again thank you Steve for the links and will read further.


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Re: [biofuel] Re: 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Shaen Rooney]

Some pharmaceutical manufacturers perform separation of continuous 
fermentation products in centrifuges.  Product leaves centrifuge for 
further refining and purification and fermentation medium can be recycled.




motie_d <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/01/2002 04:33 PM
Please respond to biofuel

 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR)
Subject:[biofuel] Re: 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me 
that maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little 
with a related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still.
> 
> Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved 
particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and 
velocity of the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute 
will start forming a "galaxy shaped" figure. This goes for any 
undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on the surface of a cup of 
tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... anything. When I 
say "galaxy shaped" it«s because that is what it looks like (and 
because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of 
them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that 
spiraling "tentacles" which all seem to point out following a curved 
path. Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly 
rotated his head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top 
you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough 
about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched).
> 

 That is a very intriguing possibility. I don't have time to conduct 
any experiments with your idea, but I do agree it should be worth 
some further investigation by someone with an interest and the time.
If anyone does any experimentation with this method of separation, 
PLEASE post it here.
 I have an inkling that the diameter will have a fairly large effect 
on the results, as well as the speed of rotation. This could have 
many applications outside of the field of home Biodiesel production. 
Fermentation projects come to mind.

Motie



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[biofuel] Re: 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[motie_d]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me 
that maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little 
with a related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still.
> 
> Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved 
particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and 
velocity of the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute 
will start forming a "galaxy shaped" figure. This goes for any 
undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on the surface of a cup of 
tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... anything. When I 
say "galaxy shaped" it«s because that is what it looks like (and 
because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of 
them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that 
spiraling "tentacles" which all seem to point out following a curved 
path. Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly 
rotated his head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top 
you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough 
about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched).
> 

 That is a very intriguing possibility. I don't have time to conduct 
any experiments with your idea, but I do agree it should be worth 
some further investigation by someone with an interest and the time.
If anyone does any experimentation with this method of separation, 
PLEASE post it here.
 I have an inkling that the diameter will have a fairly large effect 
on the results, as well as the speed of rotation. This could have 
many applications outside of the field of home Biodiesel production. 
Fermentation projects come to mind.

Motie


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Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Christian]

Thaks for the compliment. Anyhow, I just made a mini 1 lt batch and
repeating the BD preparation processs I«m seeing the glyc first produced
still needs a couple of minutes to settle gather up at the bottom. More
miportant still, I had also forgotten the methoxide mixed in it and would be
removed if I took away the glyc. -thanks for the reminder-. I think we won«t
be seeing how spiral galaxies influence the BD manufacture process for now.

Well, it takes many failures to get to a good improvement. Anyway it was
worth the chat.

Greetings,

Christian


- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)


> You'll be removing some methanol too, Christian, don't forget. Which
> version of Aleks's method are you using? The updated version has
> quite a few changes, and one of them is that the glyc isn't removed
> after the acid stage, but it is progressively removed during the
> second stage (if your processor permits).
>
> Thankyou for explaining the spiral galaxy in my coffee, I always
> wondered how it got there without a Big Bang. No, seriously, nice
> explanation, you can watch it forming and see some basic principle at
> work, nice to have it explained. Very interested to know if it leads
> to a process improvement, that would be great, and a nice story to
> tell too.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term "phase" really applies
> >here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in
> >the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will "have a way of knowing" if the layer og
glycerin
> >belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep.
> >
> >I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need "hard
references"
> >for the "displacement of the reaction how to-s". If what you point is
right,
> >then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the
> >glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out...
> >assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right,
> >there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping
the
> >reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after
in
> >the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and
this
> >is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the
BD
> >you might be discarding the "layer in between" (unless you store these
> >layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the
> >"leftovers") Am I being clear here? I think not.
> >
> >The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first
stage
> >you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine
> >"interphase layer" of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is
> >right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed
with
> >stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and
so
> >you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of
> >removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to
remaove
> >the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Christian
> >
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
> >
> >
> > > I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the
precipitation
> > > of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all
that
> >is
> > > required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in
a
> > > separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet
away,
> > > it's basically "out of the picture".
> > >
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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__
mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es
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-Chat


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Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again

[MH]

steve spence wrote:
> 
> Gasoline is ~118,000 BTU/gallon
> Diesel is ~135,000 BTU/gallon
> Ethanol is ~80,000 BTU/gallon
> BioDiesel is ~117,000 BTU/gallon
> 
> this, btw, is very interesting. take the time to go through it all.
> 
> http://www.tc.gc.ca/envaffairs/climate/doc_converti/Etoh/ETOH-FNL-RPTAug30-1999.htm
> 
> http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm
> 
> http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/questions.html

 Thank you Steve!  Have not read through entirely but question
 energy value that does not, I think, consider Internal Combustion (IC)
 engine compression ratio (CR) and ethanol OH, octane boost. 

 For example (e.g.):
 http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm
 "The energy value of a gallon of ethanol varies from
 75,700 BTU 84,000 BTU depending on burning temperature. 
 We will use a figure of 80,000 BTU as this is the
 energy value of ethanol burning at 25 degrees C." 

 If eye remember correctly 100% ethanol optimally utilizes  about  12:1 CR. 
 As the ethanol to gasoline ratio increases ideally so should CR. 
 With increased compression also temperature.  I don't have a link at this
 time but what I understand is ethanol to gasoline relationship begins
 to balance or equalize efficiency (mpg) when engine/fuel specific CR is 
observed. 
 The OH provides a measurable increase in complete combustion magnified by
 CR (ideally) suitable for ethanol octane rating. 

 I believe I read this as well in the The Mother Earth News (TMEN) article
 about their ethanol pick up truck conversion or Steve or Keith's site
 on ethanol production. 

 What I've observed with my GeMe is increased mpg with E-10/gasohol more then 
not. 
 The station pumps reads:  gasoline 87 octane,  E-10/gasohol 89 octane. 

 Again thank you Steve for the links and will read further.

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Re: [biofuel] Waste of energy

[Harmon Seaver]

 Well, you could always use a solar still, and have free energy. And why
would you discard the mash? That's pretty wasteful. You should be measuring the
sugar content with a sacrometer in the first place so you don't put more in than
will be converted. And then the spent mash is either fed directly to hogs or
cattle or dried to sell. 


On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 06:51:52PM -, on7tim7 wrote:
> Using a still to obtain ethyl alcohol as fuel takes a lot of energy. 
> You need to bring almost to boil ten gallons of liquid to obtain one 
> gallon of alcohol. There are some sugars in the cooked mash that are 
> not converted to alcohol and will be discarted. Some one knows a more 
> efficient method?.
> 
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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> 

-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

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Re: [biofuel] Fatty acids as herbicides

[Ken Provost]

Keith:

Thanks back at ya for the composting answer. I'm a city guy these
days, but when I retire to the boondocks I'll be composting and
using a septic tank, so I'm trying to learn about it ahead of time.

The only actual product I've found that uses fatty acids as an
herbicide is called Scythe, and it's pelargonic acid, AKA nonanoic
acid -- 9 carbons long, half the length of oleic. But I  bet oleic works
too!.


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RE: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[Keith Addison]

>You can build one for yourself, you just can't build for commerce.
>Kirk

Right, thanks Kirk. No problem then.

Keith


>-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:03 PM
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
>
>
> > Include me on that list as well. Can you post it with Keith? g a
> >whitson-
>
>Hi Gaw, Marc and all
>
>Sure, I could do that. I was just about to say "Me too please!" Marc,
>but this might save you some trouble?
>
>What's the rule? I think you can make a patented something for
>experimentation or education or your own use, can't you?
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
> >-- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
> > > 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
> > > Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
> > >
> > > Marc de Piolenc
> > > Iligan, Philippines
> > > --
> > > Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776
> > >
> > > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> > > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


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RE: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[kirk]

You can build one for yourself, you just can't build for commerce.
Kirk

-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:03 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol


> Include me on that list as well. Can you post it with Keith? g a
>whitson-

Hi Gaw, Marc and all

Sure, I could do that. I was just about to say "Me too please!" Marc, 
but this might save you some trouble?

What's the rule? I think you can make a patented something for 
experimentation or education or your own use, can't you?

Best

Keith

>-- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
> > 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
> > Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
> >
> > Marc de Piolenc
> > Iligan, Philippines
> > --
> > Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776
> >
> > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: [biofuel] Waste of energy

[Ken Provost]

>Using a still to obtain ethyl alcohol as fuel takes a lot of energy.
>You need to bring almost to boil ten gallons of liquid to obtain one
>gallon of alcohol. There are some sugars in the cooked mash that are
>not converted to alcohol and will be discarted. Some one knows a more
>efficient method?.

Don't know what yeasts you're using, but I can get at least 18% alcohol
by volume with Gerd Strand's TurboYeast from Sweden. Use a solar still
to feed a 4-ft fractionating column and you can easily get 95% ethanol
with NO energy expenditure.

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[biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[Keith Addison]

> Include me on that list as well. Can you post it with Keith? g a
>whitson-

Hi Gaw, Marc and all

Sure, I could do that. I was just about to say "Me too please!" Marc, 
but this might save you some trouble?

What's the rule? I think you can make a patented something for 
experimentation or education or your own use, can't you?

Best

Keith

>-- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
> > 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
> > Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
> >
> > Marc de Piolenc
> > Iligan, Philippines
> > --
> > Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776
> >
> > They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Keith Addison]

You'll be removing some methanol too, Christian, don't forget. Which 
version of Aleks's method are you using? The updated version has 
quite a few changes, and one of them is that the glyc isn't removed 
after the acid stage, but it is progressively removed during the 
second stage (if your processor permits).

Thankyou for explaining the spiral galaxy in my coffee, I always 
wondered how it got there without a Big Bang. No, seriously, nice 
explanation, you can watch it forming and see some basic principle at 
work, nice to have it explained. Very interested to know if it leads 
to a process improvement, that would be great, and a nice story to 
tell too.

Best

Keith


>Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term "phase" really applies
>here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in
>the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will "have a way of knowing" if the layer og glycerin
>belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep.
>
>I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need "hard references"
>for the "displacement of the reaction how to-s". If what you point is right,
>then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the
>glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out...
>assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right,
>there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping the
>reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after in
>the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and this
>is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the BD
>you might be discarding the "layer in between" (unless you store these
>layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the
>"leftovers") Am I being clear here? I think not.
>
>The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first stage
>you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine
>"interphase layer" of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is
>right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed with
>stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and so
>you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of
>removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to remaove
>the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage.
>
>Regards,
>
>Christian
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
>
>
> > I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation
> > of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that
>is
> > required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a
> > separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away,
> > it's basically "out of the picture".
> >


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Re: [biofuel] Fatty acids as herbicides

[Keith Addison]

>Keith wrote:
>
> >
> >Ken, do you have a handy reference with more info on this? Are all
> >FFAs herbicides? I know VFAs are generally recognised as phytotoxins,
> >don't know about other FFAs.
>
>
>Here's a first stab, not very detailed:
>
>http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/epd/ipm/docs/envirowe/chap8.htm
>
>go to the section on fatty acids.
>
>Also try a Google search on "herbicidal properties fatty acids" for
>another 350 hits.
>
>BTW, what does VFA stand for?  -K

Thankyou Ken. VFA = Very Fine Answer?  Sorry - volatile fatty 
acid. What you get when your compost doesn't reach completion (as 
opposed to your biodiesel!). As in anaerobic, not good for plants, 
nor for the soil life. Phenolic acids (PCs) are also phytotoxins 
(plant poinsons), also breakdown products. But these phytotoxins are 
such things as acetic acid, propionic acid, butyric acid, vanillic 
acid, p-hydroxybenzoic acid, p-coumaric acid, not things you'd find 
with your glyc, I don't think. The main FFAs in the oils after 
splitting are lauric acid, myristic acid, palmitic acid, stearic 
acid, oleic acid, linolic acid, linolenic acid. (Hey, I don't know 
too much about this stuff!) But I think these are all long-chain 
fatty acids, not VFAs, and I don't find much about their phytotoxic 
properties, although they do inhibit seed germination. The VFAs seem 
to be breakdown products. Fatty acids are certainly used as 
herbicides, but I think not just any fatty acid. I'll keep looking, 
thanks much for the leads.

Anyway, Ken, if you do good compost, that is aerobic compost that 
gets hot (thermophilic), above 60 deg C, and you let it cure a bit 
after it's finished, all FFAs will be broken down safely and won't 
kill your plants. The difficulty with such gunky stuff would be to 
ensure that the oxygen supply can get at it. You'd have to cut it 
thoroughly with something dry and crumbly (sawdust, woodchips, 
whatever) so it wasn't just a sticky mess. (Squeeze some in your fist 
and it should make a ball, but the ball should crumble apart easily.) 
Then, with the usual provisos re C:N ratio, moisture content and 
aeration, you'll be fine. With vermicomposting, the worms wouldn't be 
able to handle it directly, but if there was enough other stuff in 
there breaking down (the worms have a great influence on the whole 
process even before they start eating the stuff), they'd be able to 
deal with it eventually and again you'd end up with a safe product.

One test of finished compost is whether cress seeds will germinate in 
it, and that's just what it's testing - cress seeds are very 
sensitive to fatty acids. If they won't germinate, it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't have put fatty acids in it in the first place, just 
that the process wasn't properly controlled or that it hasn't cured 
for long enough.

Two commercial herbicides are currently causing trouble because they 
don't break down in compost, but these are synthetic products, not 
natural FFAs, and they're toxic to plants in tiny amounts. Picloram - 
4-amino-3,5,6-trichloropicolinic acid, aka Tordon, Grazon, Access, 
Pathway, "Agent White", and especially Clopyralid - 
3,6-dichloro-2-pyridinecarboxylic acid, aka Stinger, Reclaim, 
Transline. But anything that was once part of something alive and 
hasn't since been fossilised will break down safely.

Regards

Keith


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[biofuel] Waste of energy

[on7tim7]

Using a still to obtain ethyl alcohol as fuel takes a lot of energy. 
You need to bring almost to boil ten gallons of liquid to obtain one 
gallon of alcohol. There are some sugars in the cooked mash that are 
not converted to alcohol and will be discarted. Some one knows a more 
efficient method?.


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[biofuel] Fwd: Crude Glycerine 80% min purtity

[Keith Addison]

Anyone interested? If so, please respond direct to Mr Strassberg, not 
to the list or to me or to Journey to Forever. If you make megabucks 
out of it, an introduction fee might fit in our woefully emptyish 
kitty rather well. 

Keith



>From: "Edward Strassberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject:  Crude Glycerine 80% min purtity
>Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:43:22 -0400
>X-Priority: 3
>
>
>Dear Export |Sirs,
>
>If you supply, please quote your compeitive cost for the above subject:
>
>Material:   Palm or Tallow base
>Quanity per shipment; :  6,000 mt
>Regular shipments of same
>
>CIF:  Busan or inchon Korean port
>
>Packing:   Used drum is acceptable
>
>Thank you kindly and we look forward to working closely with you,
>
>Edward


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[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Crude Glycerine 80% min purtity

[Keith Addison]

Anyone interested? If so, please respond direct to Mr Strassberg, not 
to the list or to me or to Journey to Forever. If you make megabucks 
out of it, an introduction fee might fit in our woefully emptyish 
kitty rather well. 

Keith



>From: "Edward Strassberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject:  Crude Glycerine 80% min purtity
>Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:43:22 -0400
>X-Priority: 3
>
>
>Dear Export |Sirs,
>
>If you supply, please quote your compeitive cost for the above subject:
>
>Material:   Palm or Tallow base
>Quanity per shipment; :  6,000 mt
>Regular shipments of same
>
>CIF:  Busan or inchon Korean port
>
>Packing:   Used drum is acceptable
>
>Thank you kindly and we look forward to working closely with you,
>
>Edward


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[biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[gawchicken2001]

 Include me on that list as well. Can you post it with Keith? g a 
whitson-

-- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
> 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
> Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
> 
> Marc de Piolenc
> Iligan, Philippines
> -- 
> Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776
> 
> They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Christian]

ANYWAY:

1.- Le Chatelier«s Principle: the position of equilibrium always shifts in
such a direction that eases the tension applied on the system

2.- Chemical reactions DO NOT END in the equilibrium, but rather it is at
this point where the speed of the reacion in one way and the other are
equal. This means that in the equilibrium, there is as much glycerin and BD
combining to produce MeOH and WVO as there is WVO and MeOH combining to
produce glycerin and BD. If you take this into consideration, then I figure
you can say that removing the glycerin "to a bucket six feet away" is the
only way in which you can favour the equilibrium towards the products side,
«cause if there still is an interfase between glycerin and BD/WVO, you will
still have amounts of glyc/BD in the interfase of the liquids combining to
form more WVO/MeOH. What I still can«t explain is how the amount of (not the
presence of) glycerin may favour the reaction towards one side or the other.


- Original Message -
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)


> I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation
> of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that
is
> required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a
> separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away,
> it's basically "out of the picture".
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Christian]

Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term "phase" really applies
here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in
the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will "have a way of knowing" if the layer og glycerin
belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep.

I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need "hard references"
for the "displacement of the reaction how to-s". If what you point is right,
then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the
glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out...
assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right,
there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping the
reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after in
the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and this
is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the BD
you might be discarding the "layer in between" (unless you store these
layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the
"leftovers") Am I being clear here? I think not.

The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first stage
you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine
"interphase layer" of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is
right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed with
stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and so
you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of
removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to remaove
the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage.

Regards,

Christian


- Original Message -
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)


> I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation
> of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that
is
> required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a
> separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away,
> it's basically "out of the picture".
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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Re: [biofuel] what could it be?

[Shukrainternationals]

Where can I find info on continuous process for BD?
Thanks

  - Original Message - 
  From: Keith Addison 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:53 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] what could it be?


  Ken Provost wrote:

  

  >Seriously, tho, what you're doing is great -- FFAs are basically the
  >final effluent you
  >have to deal with after neutralizing everything else. They're fairly
  >strong herbicides,
  >so you really don't want to just toss 'em in the compost with the
  >aqueous phase.

  Ken, do you have a handy reference with more info on this? Are all 
  FFAs herbicides? I know VFAs are generally recognised as phytotoxins, 
  don't know about other FFAs.

  Best

  Keith


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Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Shaen Rooney]

This is correct.  I guess centrifugal separation would be a better idea 
for continuous processing, as it would allow fresh feed to be introduced.




"Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/01/2002 11:01 AM
Please respond to biofuel

 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR)
Subject:Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation
of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that 
is
required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a
separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away,
it's basically "out of the picture".


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Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Shaen Rooney]

This is actually a very good idea.  It's used in some very sophisticated 
biochemical production processes.  You might look into a chemical 
engineering unit operations text for further development.




Christian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/01/2002 11:18 AM
Please respond to biofuel

 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR)
Subject:[biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me that 
maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little with a 
related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still.

Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved 
particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and velocity of 
the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute will start forming 
a "galaxy shaped" figure. This goes for any undissolved particles: maybe 
the thin foam on the surface of a cup of tea, or the undissolved sugar at 
the bottom... anything. When I say "galaxy shaped" it«s because that is 
what it looks like (and because the same physics rules surely apply to the 
formation of them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that 
spiraling "tentacles" which all seem to point out following a curved path. 
Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly rotated his 
head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top you«d see the 
head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough about that (I hope my 
explanation is not too far fetched).

We all know now that the WVO/methoxide reaction is an equilibrium 
reaction, which can attain a considerable efficiency, but does not reach 
completion. We have also said that in an equilibrium reaction, removing 
some of the products of the reaction displaces the reaction twards the 
products« side, thus forming a higher quantity of them (and this is useful 
when working with any eq. reaction). Last but not least, we all know how 
un-homely and $$$ a centrifuge machine can be.

When you stirr your Biodiesel, a great portion will appear in a visible 
form. That is, if you start from 1lt WVO and 200 ml Methoxide, maybe 
you«ll get, say, 200 ml of untreated glycerin once you pass the settling 
stage (don«t qote me on that number... I«m using it to quantify my 
explanation). Probably after the 50 minutes mix you«ll already have at 
least 100 ml settling quicky at the bottom, and you«ll have to wait for 
the settling stage to get the other 100 ml out of the BD mixture.

Now, if you use a circular container, as a stainless steel bucket (for my 
small batches, I use a satinless steel ice bucket), and you mix with an 
electric stirrer (I use a 9V motor with a steel coat hanger molded into 
something that resembles a rod with a small hoop at the end), and after 
that you try to form a deep vortex (still never allowing the vortex to 
reach the tip of the stirrer and forming trillions of unwanted bubbles), 
then you«ll get the mixture flowing in a circular motion.

The glycerin that visibly separates after 50 minutes of stirring will 
probably be located just below the stirrer, in the center of the bucket, 
right at the bottom, just as in the cup of tea. If you placed a little tap 
(a hose epoxi-ed to the bucket and secured closed with a clamp), then, 
while stirring fast enough to make the fluid move in a circular matter, 
but slow enough to let this motion flow uniformly, you could take these 
100 ml of glycerin out of the bucket, and allow the reaction to continue 
producing some more BD (and glyc). You could meanwhile separate the 
glycerin from any trespassing BD, and throw this small portion of BD back 
in again while you maintain the reaction for a bit longer, maybe 40 
minutes more. 

I«ve still not tried this, but if there was any more settled glyc while 
stirring in the secnd stage, you could even perform a third stage, 
removing this newly formed glyc.

The spiral galaxy forms because as the physics laws for circular motion 
tell us, the liquid moving far away from the center of rotation rotates at 
an angular velocity equal to that of the liquid close to the center, but 
covers a greater distance in the same time, so actually, it«s moving much 
faster than the liquid at the center. This is the principle of most 
separators used in the industry. At lower velocities, the particles 
settle. A spec of sand will only remain airborne at a certain air 
velocity, below which it will fall down. In the BG/Glyc system, the 
glycerin is denser so it sinks to the bottom, and behaves as the spec of 
sand jest described. In the periphery, far away from the center of the 
bucket, the mixer makes the fluid move quickly, but in the center (just 
below the stirrer), velocity drops and so, any decanted glycerin will tend 
to star gathering up near the center og the bucket and ath the bottom, 
fomring the "spiral galaxy" shape described (or at least following this 
pattern... various factor m

Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Ken Provost]

I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation
of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is
required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a
separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away,
it's basically "out of the picture".

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[biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)

[Christian]

I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me that maybe, to 
a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little with a related method. 
It«s nothing out of this world, but still.

Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved particles 
still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and velocity of the fluid, 
after neatly stirring in circles, the solute will start forming a "galaxy 
shaped" figure. This goes for any undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on 
the surface of a cup of tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... 
anything. When I say "galaxy shaped" it«s because that is what it looks like 
(and because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of them)... 
i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that spiraling "tentacles" which all 
seem to point out following a curved path. Sort of as if you held an octupus 
from above, and slightly rotated his head with his tentacles still on the 
ground: from up top you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But 
enough about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched).

We all know now that the WVO/methoxide reaction is an equilibrium reaction, 
which can attain a considerable efficiency, but does not reach completion. We 
have also said that in an equilibrium reaction, removing some of the products 
of the reaction displaces the reaction twards the products« side, thus forming 
a higher quantity of them (and this is useful when working with any eq. 
reaction). Last but not least, we all know how un-homely and $$$ a centrifuge 
machine can be.

When you stirr your Biodiesel, a great portion will appear in a visible form. 
That is, if you start from 1lt WVO and 200 ml Methoxide, maybe you«ll get, say, 
200 ml of untreated glycerin once you pass the settling stage (don«t qote me on 
that number... I«m using it to quantify my explanation). Probably after the 50 
minutes mix you«ll already have at least 100 ml settling quicky at the bottom, 
and you«ll have to wait for the settling stage to get the other 100 ml out of 
the BD mixture.

Now, if you use a circular container, as a stainless steel bucket (for my small 
batches, I use a satinless steel ice bucket), and you mix with an electric 
stirrer (I use a 9V motor with a steel coat hanger molded into something that 
resembles a rod with a small hoop at the end), and after that you try to form a 
deep vortex (still never allowing the vortex to reach the tip of the stirrer 
and forming trillions of unwanted bubbles), then you«ll get the mixture flowing 
in a circular motion.

The glycerin that visibly separates after 50 minutes of stirring will probably 
be located just below the stirrer, in the center of the bucket, right at the 
bottom, just as in the cup of tea. If you placed a little tap (a hose epoxi-ed 
to the bucket and secured closed with a clamp), then, while stirring fast 
enough to make the fluid move in a circular matter, but slow enough to let this 
motion flow uniformly, you could take these 100 ml of glycerin out of the 
bucket, and allow the reaction to continue producing some more BD (and glyc). 
You could meanwhile separate the glycerin from any trespassing BD, and throw 
this small portion of BD back in again while you maintain the reaction for a 
bit longer, maybe 40 minutes more. 

I«ve still not tried this, but if there was any more settled glyc while 
stirring in the secnd stage, you could even perform a third stage, removing 
this newly formed glyc.

The spiral galaxy forms because as the physics laws for circular motion tell 
us, the liquid moving far away from the center of rotation rotates at an 
angular velocity equal to that of the liquid close to the center, but covers a 
greater distance in the same time, so actually, it«s moving much faster than 
the liquid at the center. This is the principle of most separators used in the 
industry. At lower velocities, the particles settle. A spec of sand will only 
remain airborne at a certain air velocity, below which it will fall down. In 
the BG/Glyc system, the glycerin is denser so it sinks to the bottom, and 
behaves as the spec of sand jest described. In the periphery, far away from the 
center of the bucket, the mixer makes the fluid move quickly, but in the center 
(just below the stirrer), velocity drops and so, any decanted glycerin will 
tend to star gathering up near the center og the bucket and ath the bottom, 
fomring the "spiral galaxy" shape described (or at least following this 
pattern... various factor many times make this shape not so obvious).

Sorry for the extent of this post. I hope someone tries this and sees how it 
works. If it really does, it could represent a great time saving (regarding 
Alek«s two stage method). Anyway, it is more complicated than Alek«s method and 
might require practice... if it really works. I recall having seen some 
glycerin just after I stopped stirring. This would be the moment to tap the 
glyc, and then c

Re: [biofuel] Fatty acids as herbicides

[Ken Provost]

Keith wrote:

>
>Ken, do you have a handy reference with more info on this? Are all
>FFAs herbicides? I know VFAs are generally recognised as phytotoxins,
>don't know about other FFAs.


Here's a first stab, not very detailed:

http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/epd/ipm/docs/envirowe/chap8.htm

go to the section on fatty acids.

Also try a Google search on "herbicidal properties fatty acids" for
another 350 hits.

BTW, what does VFA stand for?  -K

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Re: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[Appal Energy]

That's an affirmative.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: F. Marc de Piolenc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Biofuel List 
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:44 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol


> While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US
Patent
> 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of
Absolute
> Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
>
> Marc de Piolenc
> Iligan, Philippines
> --
> Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776
>
> They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
>
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Re: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[Ken Provost]

>While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
>1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
>Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
>
>Marc de Piolenc
>Iligan, Philippines


Yes, please, I'll take two!  :-)

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Re: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol

[Greg and April]

I would like a copy please,

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: "F. Marc de Piolenc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Biofuel List" 
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 07:44
Subject: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol


> While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent
> 1,704,213, "Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute
> Alcohol" and scanned it. Anybody want it?
>
> Marc de Piolenc
> Iligan, Philippines
> --
> Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776
>
> They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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>


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Re: Peculiar "Farming for Fuel" oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again

[Shaen Rooney]

For more energy savings, if spoilage is not an issue (i.e. cattle feeding 
operation is nearby), stillage does not need to be totally dried to DDGS. 
It can be fed only partially dried.




"steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
05/01/2002 05:49 AM
Please respond to biofuel

 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR)
Subject:Re: Peculiar "Farming for Fuel" oversights was Re: 
[biofuel] Re: Is it now 
time to talk to your congressman?? again

indeed, see http://www.methane-gas.com

and http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/methane.htm


Steve Spence
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "motie_d" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:56 AM
Subject: Peculiar "Farming for Fuel" oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is 
it
now time to talk to your congressman?? again


> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jmwelter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly
> fed
> > to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here:
> >
> > advantages:
> > a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than
> > those found in plants (especially proteins and fats)
> >
> > b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with
> higher
> > protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the
> way)
> >
> > c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those
> > made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for
> renewable
> > fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is
> > converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield
> > while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the "lifeblood" of
> > organic farming.
> >
> > disadvantage:
> > a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use
> of
> > grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one.
> >
> > my conclusion: BALANCE
>
>  Let me tip your balance a bit.
> When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried
> Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet.
> Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy
> in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all
> the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy.
> Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better
> fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making
> it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a
> stream.
>
> TILT!
>
> Motie
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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>
>



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RE: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine

[kirk]

Thanks for the link
Kirk

-Original Message-
From: Eric Schaetzle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:09 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine


Kirk, 

My understanding of thermodynamics is not at a level
that would allow me to independently evaluate the
potential efficiency of an engine given its design and
running characteristics.  According to the following
website, Melvin Vaux apparently improved Bourke's
design and patented his own engine in the 1990's. 
Sounds interesting.  

http://www.constant-pressure.com/News.htm

Eric


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Re: [biofuel] New member

[Shaen Rooney]

These sort of crops for producing biofuel have a number of advantages. 
They are less energy intensive than corn meaning they don't require as 
much fertilizer, pesticide, fuel for tractors, etc.  They can be planted 
on marginal land, that is, land that isn't suitable for traditional row 
crop agriculture.  They are more  effective at preventing soil erosion. 
When planted as a "buffer" between a field of crops and a wetlands or 
stream, they can take up chemical runoff from the field, protecting the 
water from contamination.  They also provide habitat for wildlife.




beki317 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
04/30/2002 05:37 PM
Please respond to biofuel

 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR)
Subject:[biofuel] New member

Hey guys. Just as some background, I'm a 16 year old girl from New 
York. I am on my school's Envirothon team (you can kinda guess what 
that's about...) and this year our "problem" is that hypothetically, 
the government of town or city wants to replace large fields of corn 
with growing switch grass and willow shrubs to produce biofuel. I was 
hoping you guys could help me with some pros and cons, especially 
pros, of doing this, like how would it really effect our environment? 
And what kind of mandates or tax breaks or what not would there be? I 
have found many great sites on using switch grass as biofuel, but 
absolutely none on willow shrubs. So help if you can! Please! 
Thanks :-)
~Beki



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Re: [biofuel] what could it be?

[Keith Addison]

Ken Provost wrote:



>Seriously, tho, what you're doing is great -- FFAs are basically the
>final effluent you
>have to deal with after neutralizing everything else. They're fairly
>strong herbicides,
>so you really don't want to just toss 'em in the compost with the
>aqueous phase.

Ken, do you have a handy reference with more info on this? Are all 
FFAs herbicides? I know VFAs are generally recognised as phytotoxins, 
don't know about other FFAs.

Best

Keith


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Re: Peculiar "Farming for Fuel" oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again

[steve spence]

indeed, see http://www.methane-gas.com

and http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/methane.htm


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter:
http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm

Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
Human powered devices, equipment, and transport -
http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "motie_d" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:56 AM
Subject: Peculiar "Farming for Fuel" oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it
now time to talk to your congressman?? again


> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jmwelter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly
> fed
> > to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here:
> >
> > advantages:
> > a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than
> > those found in plants (especially proteins and fats)
> >
> > b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with
> higher
> > protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the
> way)
> >
> > c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those
> > made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for
> renewable
> > fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is
> > converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield
> > while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the "lifeblood" of
> > organic farming.
> >
> > disadvantage:
> > a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use
> of
> > grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one.
> >
> > my conclusion: BALANCE
>
>  Let me tip your balance a bit.
> When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried
> Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet.
> Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy
> in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all
> the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy.
> Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better
> fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making
> it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a
> stream.
>
> TILT!
>
> Motie
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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[biofuels-biz] EREN Network News -- 05/1/02

[EREN]

=
EREN NETWORK NEWS -- May 1, 2002
A weekly newsletter from the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE)
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Network (EREN).

=

Featuring:
*News and Events
   New State Initiatives and Laws to Boost Renewable Energy
   Utah Enacts Net Metering Legislation, Kentucky Starts Pilot
   Environmental Summit Yields Renewable Power Recommendations
   DOE Funds Research to Increase Geothermal Production
   DOE, BPA to Test Environmentally Friendly Turbines
   Zero-Energy House Featured in Atlanta and on National Mall
   Houston Group to Plan Ways to Fight Heat Island Effect

*Energy Facts and Tips
   Is Nuclear Power Coming Back in the United States?

*About this Newsletter


--
NEWS AND EVENTS
--
New State Initiatives and Laws to Boost Renewable Energy

A proposed initiative in Michigan and new laws and
regulations in Massachusetts and New Hampshire are likely
to increase the production and use of renewable energy in
each of the states.

In Michigan, Governor John Engler announced in mid-April
his "NextEnergy" economic development plan, which
focuses on hydrogen-powered fuel cells but also encourages
the establishment of other renewable energy industries in
the state. The energy blueprint proposes a 700-acre, tax-free
"NextEnergyZone" near Ann Arbor, including a state-of-the-
art clearinghouse and information resource called the
NextEnergy Center. With its proposals for a national
certification and standards program, tax incentives and
exemptions, microgrid demonstrations, and an international
conference, the NextEnergy program could catalyze the
development of renewable and fuel cell industries in the
state. See the NextEnergy Web site, with links to the
governor's announcement, at:
.

In Massachusetts, new regulations are in place for a
statewide standard for production of electricity from
renewable energy sources. The Massachusetts Renewable
Portfolio Standard (RPS) specifies that retail suppliers of
electricity must draw on new renewable energy projects to
provide one percent of their power in 2003, increasing to
four percent by 2009. However, electricity suppliers can
avoid the requirement by purchasing credits from the
Massachusetts Technology Park Corporation, which
administers the state's Renewable Energy Trust. For 2003,
the credits will cost $50 per megawatt-hour, or 5 cents per
kilowatt-hour, which is likely to be higher than the
incremental cost of new renewable power sources. The
regulation is expected to take effect this month. See the RPS
regulations on the Massachusetts Division of Energy
Resources Web site at: .

New Hampshire is approaching power production from the
opposite direction, through regulation of power-plant
emissions. The state's new multiple pollutant reduction
program is the first in the country to include carbon dioxide
emissions. The program caps emissions at their current
levels and establishes a system of emissions credits that can
be traded among power generators. It also requires the
state's Department of Environmental Services to establish an
integrated strategy to reduce emissions, including the use of
energy efficiency and renewable energy. The legislation
anticipates lowering the carbon emissions cap in 2010. See
the New Hampshire bill at:
.


Utah Enacts Net Metering Legislation, Kentucky Starts Pilot

Utah and Kentucky have joined the ranks of states in which
the state's utilities offer net metering to their customers. Net
metering allows customers to install their own power
generation systems and feed excess power back into the
grid. Customers are billed only for their net electricity use
over a month or a year -- ideally, their meter turns backwards
when they are feeding power into the grid. Net metering is
usually limited to clean power sources of a certain size.
The Utah legislation, which takes effect next week, applies to
renewable energy and fuel cell installations of not more than
25 kilowatts. See the Utah bill at:
.

In Kentucky, net metering will be tested through pilot
programs run by the Louisville Gas and Electric Company
and the Kentucky Utilities Company. The three-year pilots
will allow 25 customers of each utility to try net metering,
with residential customers limited to 10-kilowatt systems and
non-residential customers limited to 25-kilowatt systems.
The pilot applies to wind, hydropower, and solar installations.
The utilities will install sophisticated meters to examine
whether the systems feed power to t

[biofuel] EREN Network News -- 05/1/02

[EREN]

=
EREN NETWORK NEWS -- May 1, 2002
A weekly newsletter from the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE)
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Network (EREN).

=

Featuring:
*News and Events
   New State Initiatives and Laws to Boost Renewable Energy
   Utah Enacts Net Metering Legislation, Kentucky Starts Pilot
   Environmental Summit Yields Renewable Power Recommendations
   DOE Funds Research to Increase Geothermal Production
   DOE, BPA to Test Environmentally Friendly Turbines
   Zero-Energy House Featured in Atlanta and on National Mall
   Houston Group to Plan Ways to Fight Heat Island Effect

*Energy Facts and Tips
   Is Nuclear Power Coming Back in the United States?

*About this Newsletter


--
NEWS AND EVENTS
--
New State Initiatives and Laws to Boost Renewable Energy

A proposed initiative in Michigan and new laws and
regulations in Massachusetts and New Hampshire are likely
to increase the production and use of renewable energy in
each of the states.

In Michigan, Governor John Engler announced in mid-April
his "NextEnergy" economic development plan, which
focuses on hydrogen-powered fuel cells but also encourages
the establishment of other renewable energy industries in
the state. The energy blueprint proposes a 700-acre, tax-free
"NextEnergyZone" near Ann Arbor, including a state-of-the-
art clearinghouse and information resource called the
NextEnergy Center. With its proposals for a national
certification and standards program, tax incentives and
exemptions, microgrid demonstrations, and an international
conference, the NextEnergy program could catalyze the
development of renewable and fuel cell industries in the
state. See the NextEnergy Web site, with links to the
governor's announcement, at:
.

In Massachusetts, new regulations are in place for a
statewide standard for production of electricity from
renewable energy sources. The Massachusetts Renewable
Portfolio Standard (RPS) specifies that retail suppliers of
electricity must draw on new renewable energy projects to
provide one percent of their power in 2003, increasing to
four percent by 2009. However, electricity suppliers can
avoid the requirement by purchasing credits from the
Massachusetts Technology Park Corporation, which
administers the state's Renewable Energy Trust. For 2003,
the credits will cost $50 per megawatt-hour, or 5 cents per
kilowatt-hour, which is likely to be higher than the
incremental cost of new renewable power sources. The
regulation is expected to take effect this month. See the RPS
regulations on the Massachusetts Division of Energy
Resources Web site at: .

New Hampshire is approaching power production from the
opposite direction, through regulation of power-plant
emissions. The state's new multiple pollutant reduction
program is the first in the country to include carbon dioxide
emissions. The program caps emissions at their current
levels and establishes a system of emissions credits that can
be traded among power generators. It also requires the
state's Department of Environmental Services to establish an
integrated strategy to reduce emissions, including the use of
energy efficiency and renewable energy. The legislation
anticipates lowering the carbon emissions cap in 2010. See
the New Hampshire bill at:
.


Utah Enacts Net Metering Legislation, Kentucky Starts Pilot

Utah and Kentucky have joined the ranks of states in which
the state's utilities offer net metering to their customers. Net
metering allows customers to install their own power
generation systems and feed excess power back into the
grid. Customers are billed only for their net electricity use
over a month or a year -- ideally, their meter turns backwards
when they are feeding power into the grid. Net metering is
usually limited to clean power sources of a certain size.
The Utah legislation, which takes effect next week, applies to
renewable energy and fuel cell installations of not more than
25 kilowatts. See the Utah bill at:
.

In Kentucky, net metering will be tested through pilot
programs run by the Louisville Gas and Electric Company
and the Kentucky Utilities Company. The three-year pilots
will allow 25 customers of each utility to try net metering,
with residential customers limited to 10-kilowatt systems and
non-residential customers limited to 25-kilowatt systems.
The pilot applies to wind, hydropower, and solar installations.
The utilities will install sophisticated meters to examine
whether the systems feed power to t

[biofuel] OPEC, Big Oil and you - 15

[Keith Addison]

The Seven Sisters

The Great Oil Companies and the World They Made

Anthony Sampson

Hodder and Stoughton, 1975, ISBN 0 340 19427 8

Chapter 14 - Part 1

The New Cartel

It's taken OPEC fifteen years to put together an absolutely 
magnificent organisation that succeeded in getting world oil prices 
up by a factor of four in a month's time. They'd have to be utterly 
mad to do anything as stupid as go out and compete with each other to 
drive down the price of oil.
-- Bob Dorsey, Chairman of Gulf Oil, July 1974

Sovereign Nations cannot allow their policies to be dictated, or 
their fate decided, by artificial rigging and distortion of world 
commodity prices.
-- President Ford, September 1974

AFTER the embargo had been lifted by the middle of 1974, the 
consuming countries were having to face the apparently unalterable 
fact that the world's oil was now controlled by a cartel of sovereign 
states. Their attention was focussed on the headquarters of OPEC in 
Vienna, which had for so long been regarded as insignificant.

No city in Europe evokes more poignantly the past glories of Western 
civilisation than Vienna. Along the wide ring-road that circumscribes 
the old city, the baroque and rococo palaces loom up on either side 
with a melancholy grandeur. Their high domes, their ceremonial 
entrances and broad stairways seem all to be waiting for the ghosts 
of earlier eras -- of Maria Theresa, of Metternich, of Haydn and 
Mozart. Driving round the ring road, past the baroque opera house and 
the tall gothic town hall, a single bleak modern block suddenly 
sticks out with a facade made of slabs of white lavatorial marble. 
Over the workaday entrance are the words TEXACO: for it houses among 
other people the Austrian headquarters of Texaco. But among the brass 
plates there is also one that announces: ORGANISATION OF PETROLEUM 
EXPORTING COUNTRIES (OPEC): 1st and 2nd Floors. There is nothing in 
the surroundings to suggest that this represents the headquarters of 
the biggest financial power in the history of the world.

For most of the year there is nothing exciting about the offices. On 
the white walls small black-and-white photographs depict scenes from 
the member-countries: a view of a storage tank, seen through some 
bushes in Iraq; a gas-oil converter in Libya; a tanker off the 
dead-flat coast of Saudi Arabia. Down the corridors underfurnished 
offices contain statisticians, economists, and cosy British or 
Austrian secretaries. On the floor above sits the secretary general, 
who changes every two years. It is not a flamboyant position: for the 
two critical years, 1973 and 1974, when OPEC suddenly realised its 
full power, the Secretary was a quiet courteous Algerian, Dr. 
Abderrahman Khene, who looked like, as he once was, a doctor: 
patient, courteous, with a neat moustache and a waistcoat, he seemed 
not at all excited by the sudden new balance. He saw the change, as 
he put it to me, as one not towards power but towards reality. The 
West, he believes, should be able to face willingly the reduction in 
its standard of living, for the betterment of the third world.

For years the meetings of OPEC had attracted scarcely more attention 
than other trade organisations -- only a handful of specialist 
journalists would attend. But after the sensational turnabout of 
1973, the bleak offices became suddenly the object of intense 
curiosity for the rest of the world. The interest had reached a new 
peak by the time of the annual meeting in December 1974, a year after 
the sensational price-rise, when the price of oil was once again to 
be settled. Planes flew in from Caracas, Kuwait, or Djakarta. The 
four principal hotels in Vienna filled up with unpronounceable names 
from little known countries. At the Hotel Imperial opposite the 
Opera, where Wagner once stayed, an elegant yellow suite was prepared 
for Dr. Jamshid Amouzegar, from Iran. At the Hotel Intercontinental 
expectancy centred round room 1141 on the top floor, which was 
awaiting the arrival of Sheikh Zaki Yamani.

Journalists flew in from the four corners; no longer now only the 
dedicated band of experts, from Platt's Oilgram, or Petroleum 
Intelligence Weekly, or the Middle East Economic Survey, but a whole 
pack of pundits and popularisers, grappling with the complexities of 
barrels and buy-back, equity and discount. Vienna was the centre of a 
curiosity that had never been accorded to Chancellor Kreisky or to 
the negotiations on Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions. For this 
curiosity affected every consumer in the industrialised world: what 
will be the new price of oil? And will the OPEC cartel hold together?

On the first morning reporters and cameras are packed into the 
reception room, waiting for the visiting potentates. Abdul Rahman 
Atiqi, the Kuwaiti oil minister, strides in behind his Groucho 
moustache; he has command of three million barrels of oil a day -- a 
tenth of OPEC's production. Dr. Amouzegar follows, his humo

Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust

[Paul Gobert]

Thanks Ro onya!

- Original Message -
From: "Joe Giacomini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust


> Not yet I will try some more experiments in the future.  I need a more
> controlled environment.  I am using a non heated building where the
> control sample also displayed some separation.  Sorry for the delayed
> response all the ranting and raving turned me off to wading through the
> emails.
>
> Mike Frieders wrote:
>
> >  Perhaps we could get back to the subject of bio-diesel.  Someone was
> > experimenting with electricity in seperating out the glycerin.  Did
> > you have any
> > luck?  What about temperature, will cold for example cause the
> > glycerin to
> > seperate out of solution?  Does glycerin freeze before BD or the other
> > way
> > around?
> >
> >
> >
> > Steven-Lee Craig wrote:
> >
> > > Harmon,
> > >
> > > Sounds like you have really studied. In fact if you know as much
> > about
> > > religion as you say, I would say you are an expert on the subject.
> > Too bad
> > > you didn't realize that study of religion is as a potent poison as
> > one can
> > > ingest. After all, look what conclusion you came to. You dumped the
> > only
> > > true purpose for an existence on this planet. Too much study of
> > religion
> > > equals, No faith. No future.
> > >
> > > I listened to a guy the other day that told me he learned more from
> > the
> > > Buddhists and Hindus than from any Christian teaching. I am sure of
> > one
> > > thing, and that is that he will learn more at his death than he ever
> > learned
> > > from the Buddhists, Hindus, or the Christians. But by then it will
> > be too
> > > late to act on it!!!
> > >
> > > Steven-Lee Craig
> > >
> > > Radio Free Huron serving Huron county 24 hours a day at 100.1 FM
> > >
> > > WWW.RADIOFREEHURON.COM
> > >
> > > As a former christian, and fundamentalist at that, I have to say as
> > far as
> > > > I'm concerned, christianity is a deception. And as I pointed out
> > before, I
> > > have
> > > > a degree in religious studies with an emphasis in biblical
> > literature, and
> > > > before I went back to school had studied both the bible and church
> > history
> > > > intensively for years. I know for a fact that I know more about
> > the bible
> > > and
> > > > church history than *any* preacher I ever met -- and I know
> > plenty.
> > > >The church is directly to blame for a great many of our current
> >
> > > problems,
> > > > environmental, social, and political, and has been since it's
> > inception
> > > when
> > > > they ripped off the messiah of Israel and perverted it into
> > something it
> > > was
> > > > not. The Inquistion was official church policy, they torturing and
> > burning
> > > of
> > > > thousands upon thousands of women in Europe was official church
> > policy.
> > > The
> > > > genocide of Native Americans, the enslavement of Africans, was
> > made a part
> > > of
> > > > church doctrine. The current War On Some Drugs (which accounts for
> > 75% of
> > > our
> > > > prison population) is pure religious persecution brought about by
> > the
> > > church.
> > > > The epitome of christian political policy in Amerika today is the
> > most
> > > evil man
> > > > in Amerika today, John Asscruft -- just look at his face, listen
> > to his
> > > voice,
> > > > it's like Nazi Germany all over again.
> > > >Nazism is something else I've studied pretty intensely, and is
> > one of
> > > the
> > > > reasons I find the current regime so frightening. Adolph Hitler
> > once said:
> > > > "Those who think National Socialism is a polical party know
> > nothing about
> > > it. It
> > > > is a religion, and the SS are the high priests." Hitler himself
> > was not a
> > > great
> > > > intellect, nor had he much personal power, he was a medium, a
> > puppet, for
> > > the
> > > > masters behind him who groomed him, educated him, and set him in
> > place.
> > > > There are great parallels between him and that evil little
> > retard,
> > > George
> > > > W. Bush.
> > >  Harmon Seaver
> > > CyberShamanix
> > >  http://www.cybershamanix.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever

Peculiar "Farming for Fuel" oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again

[motie_d]

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jmwelter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly 
fed 
> to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here:  
> 
> advantages:
> a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than 
> those found in plants (especially proteins and fats)  
> 
> b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with 
higher 
> protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the 
way)
> 
> c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those 
> made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for 
renewable 
> fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is 
> converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield 
> while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the "lifeblood" of 
> organic farming.
> 
> disadvantage:
> a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use 
of 
> grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one.
> 
> my conclusion: BALANCE

 Let me tip your balance a bit.
When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried 
Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet. 
Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy 
in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all 
the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy.
Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better 
fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making 
it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a 
stream.

TILT!

Motie


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[biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine

[Eric Schaetzle]

Kirk, 

My understanding of thermodynamics is not at a level
that would allow me to independently evaluate the
potential efficiency of an engine given its design and
running characteristics.  According to the following
website, Melvin Vaux apparently improved Bourke's
design and patented his own engine in the 1990's. 
Sounds interesting.  

http://www.constant-pressure.com/News.htm

Eric


Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:05:11 -0600
   From: "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine

Eric, I read the 3 archives and what I previously said
still stands.
The thermal efficiency of a diesel far exceeds a
stirling.
The only time I would choose a stir;ing over a diesel
is if my fuel 
were
wood, coal, biomass or solar.
None of those are useable in an internal combustion
engine.
Diesels run 15 to 25 to 1 compression. The ones 20 or
higher get 
excellent
economy.
The Bourke was 50 to 1 and you could put your hand on
the exhaust 
according
to a pamphlet published by the Experimental Aircraft
Assosciation.

Kirk

-Original Message-
From: Eric Schaetzle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:55 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling
engine


Stirling engine's claim to fame?  See the archived
messages below.

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=9970&list=BIOFUEL

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=6853&list=BIOFUEL

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=715&list=BIOFUEL

Eric


Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:22:07 -0600
   From: "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine

Thermal efficiency of a prime mover is a function of
the delta T the engine operates over and is
implemented in any engine using pressure change by
a ratio of volume called compression ratio. That is
why the diesel is the king and if the Bourke was
available it would hold the crown.  I think the
stirling's claim to fame is solar or solid fuel. If
you have a fuel that can be internally combusted
efficiency says use a diesel.
Kirk

-Original Message-
From: Manolo Rolan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 1:49 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and
stirling engine


i'll keep thinking ...

i'm trying to think on a solution on of a biodiesel
processor "off the grid" perhaps using stirling
engines an other technologies, just a personal
challenge... just playing

thanks Eric

Manolo Rolan
Valencia, Spain

-Mensaje original-
De: borealbliss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Enviado el: viernes, 26 de abril de 2002 23:31
Para: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling
engine


>hi all:
>making a bit of searching on google i've found some
information on
>both technologies, and i've thought that they could
be working
>together, anyone has try something on that way?
>
>thanks in advance
>
>Manolo Rolan
>Valencia, Spain

It sounds inefficient- the energy produced by a
Stirling engine run using a vortex tube would be less
than the energy needed to compress the air to run the
vortex tube in the first place.  Wouldn't it?

I suggest posting your message to one of these lists
for a better answer:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sesusa/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HotAirEngineSociety/

Eric

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