Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels less polluting

[Christopher Witmer]

Thanks, Todd (and Steve Spence too). I understand the point about 
skipping fossil fuels entirely. What would be the best approach to 
obtaining a good particle trap / catalytic converter solution? Would a 
catalytic converter salvaged from an automobile work? I have seen some 
HUGE catalytic converters for massive diesel gensets, but they cost more 
than I earn in a year (although they were cheap considering the scale at 
which they would be used); other than that I haven't seen any 
aftermarket converters for diesel, and besides, I'd like to do this on a 
shoestring budget . . . they market particle traps for trucks in Japan, 
but they are expen$ive as well . . . much more than I would want to pay. 
If I could get enough heat out of the exhaust, I wonder if a chamber 
equipped with an electrostatic particle arrestor similar to that used in 
certain home air purification systems would work. Or, if I went with a 
filter, would something as coarse as the air filters used on the intake 
side of the engine be any good? Perhaps subjecting the exhaust to a 
bubble wash would be a good way to get the particles out . . . Why isn't 
there an article on how to do this in "Mechanics Illustrated" magazine? 
In any case, I guess the proper order would be 1) get the heat out, 2) 
get the particles out, and 3) get the NOx out -- right?

Keep those suggestions coming!

Gratefully,

Christopher Witmer
Tokyo

Appal Energy wrote:

> Don't see why, if you are looking for "less polluting," that you
> would contemplate used fossil fuel products as part of the fuel
> compliment. Manditorily this would increase PAHs over biodiesel,
> and introduce the probability of heavy metals in the emissions.
> As well, if you go to a vegetable oil based lubricating oil
> ("synthetic"), you reduce almost entirely any PAHs that can come
> from crankcase oils.
> 
> Further, the biodiesel is sulfur free, permitting the inclusion
> of a catalytic converter to reduce NOx, where one couldn't be
> introduced before. (You mention this below.) Particulate traps
> can further reduce emissions, a considerably more easily applied
> technology in situations where there are constant loads, such as
> gensets.
> 
> You mention exhaust heat, which can be used to reduce loads
> elsewhere when complimented with other technologies such as such
> as indirect heat exchange for space heating, gas absorption
> cooling or Stirling engines.
> 
> Personally? Were it me? I'd abandon the idea of used fossil oils
> as a fuel compliment. Even with a turbocharger, you will not
> achieve as high an air to fuel ratio as is needed for highly
> efficient combustion. Best to use these fuels in something along
> the lines of combustion in a high pressure air stream, as in a
> boiler or space heat application for which it was designed.
> 
> Todd Swearingen
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Christopher Witmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:37 PM
> Subject: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary*
> diesels less polluting
> 
> 
> 
>>O Fuelish Ones,
>>
>>I am trying to discover ways of making stationary diesels
>>
> (e.g.,
> 
>>permanently installed electrical generator engines) less
>>
> polluting, and
> 
>>I would greatly appreciate any suggestions, ideas, avenues to
>>
> pursue and
> 
>>other tidbits of wisdom that might be useful.
>>
>>It stands to reason that there are a lot of things one would
>>
> hesitate to
> 
>>try on an automobile, but which would't present any great
>>
> problems for a
> 
>>diesel engine that was never moved around.
>>
>>Some possibilities that occur to me (I'm thinking out loud here
>>
> and
> 
>>would appreciate other ideas as well as comments if any of
>>
> those listed
> 
>>would seem to be unfruitful):
>>
>>* Combustion of biofuels (doh!) and (*if* they can be burned
>>
> cleanly
> 
>>enough) waste petroleum based lubricating oils
>>
>>* Addition of water at just the right point in the cycle
>>
>>* Addition of methane at the air intake
>>
>>* Careful filtration of both lubricants and fuels
>>
>>* Optimum use of heat coming off the engine (also cools engine
>>
> better)
> 
>>* Addition of a turbocharger
>>
>>* Addition of exhaust filtration/scrubbing device(s) --
>>
> preferably
> 
>>buildable and maintainable by the user! -- again, bulky size
>>
> isn't so
> 
>>much of an issue with the stationary engine
>>
>>* Addition of an exhaust catalytic converter *if* durable and
>>
> cheap enough!
> 
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Christopher Witmer
>>The Fuelish Acolyte
>>Tokyo
>>
>>
>>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>ADVERTISEMENT
>>
>>
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Biofuels list archives:
>>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>>
>>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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>>
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>>
> Service.
> 
>>
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Fore

[biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[womplex_oo1]

I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a 
spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP World Oil 
Statistics website:

http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp

A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that all 
the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.  By "run 
out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.

Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation however.  
Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal years, 
and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone from ever 
extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to occur 
sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the sharper the 
decline in oil production.

When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?



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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Keith Addison]

womplex_oo1 wrote:

>I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
>spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP World Oil
>Statistics website:
>
>http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
>
>A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that all
>the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.  By "run
>out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
>
>Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation however.
>Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal years,
>and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone from ever
>extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to occur
>sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the sharper the
>decline in oil production.
>
>When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?

There are some other extrapolations one could do. Take a range of 
issues that positively scream for judicious application of the 
precautionary principle and development of alternatives, however that 
would threaten the immediate interests of the powers-that-be; then 
calculate how long on average they manage to spend in denial, how 
long on average they manage to drag their feet, how long they get 
away with prolonged negotiations that only address part of the 
problem and propose inadequate solutions, and how long the transition 
period they manage to muscle across, add it all up, add 5, subtract 
the square root of the number you started off with, cross your heart 
and count to 13, and you have the number of decades after the point 
at which something could still have been done about it. This might 
perhaps be referred to as "Hubbert's Trough".

Now isn't that young master Bush proposing to increase energy 
consumption over the next decade or two?

On the other hand, when energy prices shot up in California last 
year, down went the demand. Maybe the market does indeed work 
sometimes. The Newsweek story below says Americans don't believe 
there's an energy crisis because the prices are low. Why the OECD, 
Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US gas should cost at 
least $6 a gallon.

Interesting quote in that story: 'Texaco chairman Peter Bijur once 
said that talk of failing energy supplies remind him of Cyprian, a 
Roman who warned in A.D. 250 that "the world has grown old... The 
rainfall and sun's warmth are both diminishing, the metals are nearly 
exhausted."'

http://www.msnbc.com/news/732017.asp?cp1=1
The Thirst for Oil

Actually there's another extrapolation that might be useful, concerning this:

>A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that all
>the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.

The Newsweek story also says this: "... it looked in 1970 as if oil 
would run out in 33 years-that is, next year. This year, the same 
calculation puts the day of reckoning in 2046."

As Hakan said, survey techniques are much more accurate now. And 
that's it? We've got there, huh? No more progress, science stands 
still. In fact it's quite easy to get a handle on the rate of 
technological improvement. It's exponential, like computing power. 
Could just be you're looking at an ever-receding goalpost with 
Hubbert's Peak as well as with the final drop of oil being extracted.

This is worth saying again:

>One response to the $75 per bbl question above was this:

>"... excellent point. We tried to stabilize the price of Gold for 
>years. Now its >200$ and mines are viable that weren't at $35/oz. 
>Plus, many commercial processes that used Gold have found 
>substitutes or ways to use less Gold. Gold-plated contacts are 
>alloyed with Nickel to extend and strengthen the microlayer of Gold. 
>Companies have arisen to reclaim Gold off e-scrap. Now, the analogy 
>is obvious. If Gold were held at $35, then none of these measures 
>would be existent. In the same way, tech-progress in energy has been 
>halted due to cheap oil. I have no doubt whatsoever that inventors 
>can come up with a way to make oil at $20-50 per barrel. So let the 
>price rise. I hope oil goes to $200 per barrel."

Yup.

So knock out ALL the artificial props from under US gas prices, 
charge the REAL price at the pump and everywhere else, then on top of 
that tax the hell out of it and use the taxes to promote energy 
efficiency, energy conservation, and renewable energy.

And do it NOW - and not just because of Hubbert's Peak. Not even 
because of Hubbert's Peak, there are far more pressing reasons than 
that.

I guess you might have to do something about your politicians first, LOL!

Keith


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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste

[Keith Addison]

Hoagy wrote:

> What looming water problems, any waterway &/or beach closing issues ?

Good grief Hoagy, where've you been?? Water is a vast, wordwide 
crisis. It's killing lots of people.

I'm going to sink your battleship.

Keith


West and Central Africa -- 20m people in six countries rely on Lake 
Chad for water; the lake has shrunk by 95% in the last 38 years

China -- Two-thirds of cities are facing severe water shortages

Iran -- up to 60% of people living in rural areas could be forced by 
drought to migrate to the cities

Central Asia -- the level of the Aral Sea, formerly the world's 
fourth biggest inland sea, has dropped 16m (53 ft) and its area has 
almost halved

"Bangladesh capital faces acute water crisis", Planet Ark, December 
13, 2001, Bangladesh -- Bangladesh authorities have been forced to 
call in the army to distribute drinking water in parts of the capital 
due to a chronic water shortage in the teeming city of nearly 10 
million. Dhaka regularly faces devastating floods in the wet season, 
but higher consumption is outstripping supplies.
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/13708/story.htm

"Honduras rations drinking water due to lack of rain", Tegucigalpa, 
Honduras, Associated Press, December 11, 2001 -- The Honduran 
government initiated a seven-month rationing program for drinking 
water in the capital due to unseasonably low rainfall that has left 
aquifers practically dry... Honduras and countries across Central 
America suffered from an intensive four-month drought that left more 
than 366,000 people malnourished and damaged 700,000 hectares (1.7 
million acres) of grain crops in Honduras. 
http://enn.com/news/wire-stories/2001/12/12112001/ap_rain_45839.asp

"Drought Covers 20 Percent of the World", ENS, October 4, 2001, 
Washington, DC -- A new satellite-based method for early detection, 
monitoring and analysis of drought shows that almost 20 percent of 
the world's landmass has been stricken by drought over the past two 
years.
http://ens.lycos.com/ens/oct2001/2001L-10-04-09.html

"International water crisis looms", National Post Online, Canadian 
Press, August 13, 2001 -- Millions of people face water shortage 
problems -- estimates vary from 450 million to 1.4 billion. The 
number will skyrocket to 2.7 billion by 2025, says a new study by the 
International Water Management Institute (previous studies put the 
estimate at 2.5 billion people by 2050, while other current estimates 
see as much as half or even two-thirds of the total world population 
suffering water shortages by 2025). Asia and sub-Saharan Africa, with 
some of the most heavily populated and poorest regions of the world, 
will be most affected, along with the Mediterranean region, including 
some parts of southern Europe, North Africa, and parts of North and 
South America.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/updates/story.html?f=/news/updates/st 
ories/20010813/business-521015.html
"Pressure Rising on World's Fresh Water Supply", ENS, August 14, 2001
http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug2001/2001L-08-14-02.html

"Floods", New York Times, Beijing, August 26, 1998 -- At a government 
news conference on the disastrous floods Tuesday, Zhao Qizheng, chief 
of the State Council Information Office, said the government had 
decided to shut down logging activities in the upper catchments of 
the Yangtze River. The deforestation has led to more rapid runoff of 
rain waters and increased silting of river and lake beds. He said all 
cleared areas would be replanted in a long-term strategy of 
ecological restoration.

"Drought Evaporates Water Supply for Hong Kong, Shenzhen, Canton", 
Shenzhen, China, ENS, August 24, 1999 -- At the same time that flood 
waters along the Yangtze River in central China have killed 800 and 
displaced millions this summer, the drying up of the East River in 
southern China's Guangdong Province has led to a serious water 
shortage problem in the Pearl River Delta.
http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug99/1999L-08-24-01.html

"Iran drought turns lakes to scorched earth", Reuters, August 01, 
2001 -- Iran is suffering its worst drought in 30 years. Most of the 
country's wetlands have dried out, and many farmers are struggling to 
survive.
http://enn.com/news/wire-stories/2001/08/08012001/reu_iran_44508.asp
"Iran flood toll reaches 200, foreign aid arrives", ENN, August 15, 2001
http://enn.com/news/wire-stories/2001/08/08152001/reu_iranflood_44639.asp
"Drought Chokes Off Iran's Water and Its Economy", New York Times, 
September 18, 2001
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/international/middleeast/18IRAN.html

"Sudan Flooded Out After Parching Drought", ENS, August 23, 2001 -- 
Widespread flooding in northern Sudan after two consecutive years of 
serious drought have displaced tens of thousands of people, destroyed 
crops and threatened food security, the United Nations Food and 
Agriculture Organization (FA0) said.
http://ens.lycos.com/ens/aug2001/2001L-08-23-01.html

"Asia's Dry Lands Crisis too Cr

Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste

[Keith Addison]

Murdoch wrote:



>The technology you cite is interesting, although my initial take is
>that it's not the be-all end-all appropriate for everywhere, but worth
>pursuing only for some communities, depending on the exact needs and
>size.  I am skeptical of the heavy metal treatment claims made for
>this technology.

The Arcata system is not unique, nor even controversial, it's pretty 
well-established in a large number of variations worldwide.

Phytoremediation is an established method of heavy-metal extraction, 
as well as a wide range of other pollutants. Best plants for this are 
water hyacinth and duckweed. See "Pond weeds":
http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html

There's a water hyacinth project in San Diego county, at the San 
Pasqual Aquatic Treatment Facility.

Best

Keith


>
> > Its interesting how some pointed out that bird droppings created
> > algae blooms -- yet 98% of the US populous imply petrochemical farmers
> > are at fault while water edge land owners douse their yards with
> > fertilizer and sprinkler runoff, not to mention city street storm drainage,
> > then hop in their water craft to help the wind stir it up.
> > A buffer zone might be helpful before entering lakes, streams, rivers, etc.
> >
> > Composting is a low energy input alternative
> > and another possibility with links
> > provides a walk thru the tulips javascript slide show
> > involving clarifier biogas digesters --
> >
> >
> > Arcataâs Green Machine Wetland Treats Wastewater, Shelters Birds
> > By Mark Worth
> > 1999
> > Special to ABCNEWS.com
> > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/arcatamarsh990702.html
> >
> > S U M M A R Y
> > For two decades Arcataâs wetlands have provided an environmental solution
> > to wastewater treatment and wildlife preservation,
> > providing a model for communities worldwide.
> >
> > A R C A T A,   Calif. ÷ This enclave along northern Californiaâs 
>Redwoods Coast,
> > home to Humboldt State University, can seem like a tie-dyed, 
>ponytailed bastion
> > of â60s idealism.  But thereâs nothing outdated about how Arcata 
>decided to deal with
> > its wastewater problem 20 years ago.
> >
> > In May 1979, after a two-year political battle, the city won 
>approval from state officials
> > to treat its sewage not with chemicals but with a system of 
>freshwater marshes
> > that has since become a model for natural wastewater treatment 
>throughout the world.
> >
> > Not only does the Arcata Marsh and Wildlife Sanctuary treat more than
> > 2 million gallons of effluent a day, it also provides feeding, 
>roosting and mating habitat
> > for more than 200 varieties of resident and migratory birds along 
>the Pacific Flyway,
> > including the endangered peregrine falcon and California brown pelican.
> >
> > ãItâs such a glorious solution,ä docent Alan Laurent told 
>visitors during a recent tour
> > of the 154-acre facility, shortly after spotting two Northern 
>harrier hawks,
> > ãyou wonder why every community doesnât do it.ä
> >
> > Others Follow Lead
> >
> > Many communities are following Arcataâs lead.  Thirty years after 
>the technique
> > was pioneered at the Max Planck Institute in Germany, 
>ãconstructed treatment wetlands,ä
> > as they are known in this obscure but blossoming technological subculture,
> > now number more than 600 in North America and 500 in Europe.
> >
> > From a potato-processing plant in Connell, Wash.,
> > to a coal-fired power plant in Muscle Shoals, Ala.;
> > from an oil refinery in Mandan, N.D.,
> > to the phosphorous-fouled Florida Everglades (site of the worldâs 
>largest treatment marsh),
> > these living filters are doing some of humanityâs dirtiest work.
> > More than 150 treatment wetlands smatter the Dutch countryside.
> > A graduate student from Arcata-based Humboldt State University
> > recently helped build a treatment marsh in Laos.
> > A White House scientific panel is currently mulling policy initiatives
> > to ease regulatory hurdles.
> >
> > ãItâs a green solution to pollution,ä says Robert Kadlec,
> > a retired University of Michigan chemical engineering professor
> > and one of the worldâs foremost treatment-wetland consultants.
> > ãNobody can stop it now.ä
> >
> > The Natural Treatment
> >
> > The state of California tried to stop it.  In the mid â70s a proposed
> > $55 million regional sewage-treatment system would have entailed
> > increasing Arcatansâ wastewater rates by 70 percent
> > and piping sewage through shipping lanes under Humboldt Bay.
> >
> > Swayed by such evidence as a video of a peregrine falcon swooping down
> > to make a kill in one of the cityâs treatment-plant oxidation ponds,
> > state officials eventually gave their blessing to the project.
> > Backed by federal and state grants, a team of city officials,
> > Humboldt State professors and students, conservationists, bird enthusiasts
> > and community volunteers set about turning a piece of land once called
> > ãa blighted, miserable open dumpä into a facility that 

Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Hakan Falk]

The interesting thing with Hubbard and his peak calculations, is
that his testimony in front of the US congress has largely hold
water. If I remember right, it was more than a quarter century ago.

His predictions was not applied to the whole world, but to known
oil reserves. i.e. US passed the peak early 70's, North Sea early
80's and Middle East will be there in a couple of years.

I think the your prediction about "last drop of oil gone" is largely
pessimistic, but you are still closer to the true situation than
a majority of people.

It is absolutely necessary with a rapid implementation of bio fuels
and I personally favor Bio Diesel before Ethanol. Oil companies do
however see their position better with Ethanol and it is understandable,
since it takes more to produce/distribute and would solidify their position
in a better way. With bio diesel they would look more like a milk company
and be more vulnerable to competition. I could see this effort by Keith and
others like Steve Spence as possible ways out of that. If we all push
hard with promotion, maybe it will be a better situation.

On oil depletion, you can look at http://energysavingnow.com/ and
our latest publications. On the energy situation, I just adopted some
work by Emil Bedi and I am working on the first part, it is not ready yet,
but look at http://energy.saving.nu/energytoday/

I found Emil and his work thanks to Keith. Even before I started to
publish our work, I came across http://journeytoforever.org/ and since
we went public a link have been present on our entrance page. I can
not praise Keith and his work enough, especially his support to
developing countries. I also admire his broad knowledge and dedication.

Hakan

**
Hakan Falk
If you want to take a look on a project
that is very close to my heart, go to:
http://energysavingnow.com/
http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card
http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me
http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site
MSN messenger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ 138161094
**


At 10:36 AM 8/4/2002 +, you wrote:
>I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
>spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP World Oil
>Statistics website:
>
>http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
>
>A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that all
>the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.  By "run
>out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
>
>Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation however.
>Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal years,
>and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone from ever
>extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to occur
>sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the sharper the
>decline in oil production.
>
>When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Hakan Falk]

Sorry, North sea should be early 90's, before keith discover my typo.

Hakan

**
Hakan Falk
If you want to take a look on a project
that is very close to my heart, go to:
http://energysavingnow.com/
http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card
http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me
http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site
MSN messenger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ 138161094
**

At 03:53 PM 8/4/2002 +0200, you wrote:

>The interesting thing with Hubbard and his peak calculations, is
>that his testimony in front of the US congress has largely hold
>water. If I remember right, it was more than a quarter century ago.
>
>His predictions was not applied to the whole world, but to known
>oil reserves. i.e. US passed the peak early 70's, North Sea early
>80's and Middle East will be there in a couple of years.
>
>I think the your prediction about "last drop of oil gone" is largely
>pessimistic, but you are still closer to the true situation than
>a majority of people.
>
>It is absolutely necessary with a rapid implementation of bio fuels
>and I personally favor Bio Diesel before Ethanol. Oil companies do
>however see their position better with Ethanol and it is understandable,
>since it takes more to produce/distribute and would solidify their position
>in a better way. With bio diesel they would look more like a milk company
>and be more vulnerable to competition. I could see this effort by Keith and
>others like Steve Spence as possible ways out of that. If we all push
>hard with promotion, maybe it will be a better situation.
>
>On oil depletion, you can look at http://energysavingnow.com/ and
>our latest publications. On the energy situation, I just adopted some
>work by Emil Bedi and I am working on the first part, it is not ready yet,
>but look at http://energy.saving.nu/energytoday/
>
>I found Emil and his work thanks to Keith. Even before I started to
>publish our work, I came across http://journeytoforever.org/ and since
>we went public a link have been present on our entrance page. I can
>not praise Keith and his work enough, especially his support to
>developing countries. I also admire his broad knowledge and dedication.
>
>Hakan
>
>**
>Hakan Falk
>If you want to take a look on a project
>that is very close to my heart, go to:
>http://energysavingnow.com/
>http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card
>http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me
>http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site
>MSN messenger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>ICQ 138161094
>**
>
>
>At 10:36 AM 8/4/2002 +, you wrote:
> >I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
> >spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP World Oil
> >Statistics website:
> >
> >http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
> >
> >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that all
> >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.  By "run
> >out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
> >
> >Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation however.
> >Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal years,
> >and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone from ever
> >extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to occur
> >sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the sharper the
> >decline in oil production.
> >
> >When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?
> >
> >
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Biofuels list archives:
> >http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> >To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Hakan Falk]

Dear Keith,

My point about oil reserves, is that it does not matter if the predictions
are wrong with a few hundreds of percent, the situation is fatal as it
is. We share the opinion that, for many reasons, big efforts on bio
fuels must taken now.

Hakan


At 10:44 PM 8/4/2002 +0900, you wrote:
>womplex_oo1 wrote:
>
> >I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
> >spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP World Oil
> >Statistics website:
> >
> >http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
> >
> >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that all
> >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.  By "run
> >out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
> >
> >Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation however.
> >Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal years,
> >and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone from ever
> >extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to occur
> >sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the sharper the
> >decline in oil production.
> >
> >When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?
>
>There are some other extrapolations one could do. Take a range of
>issues that positively scream for judicious application of the
>precautionary principle and development of alternatives, however that
>would threaten the immediate interests of the powers-that-be; then
>calculate how long on average they manage to spend in denial, how
>long on average they manage to drag their feet, how long they get
>away with prolonged negotiations that only address part of the
>problem and propose inadequate solutions, and how long the transition
>period they manage to muscle across, add it all up, add 5, subtract
>the square root of the number you started off with, cross your heart
>and count to 13, and you have the number of decades after the point
>at which something could still have been done about it. This might
>perhaps be referred to as "Hubbert's Trough".
>
>Now isn't that young master Bush proposing to increase energy
>consumption over the next decade or two?
>
>On the other hand, when energy prices shot up in California last
>year, down went the demand. Maybe the market does indeed work
>sometimes. The Newsweek story below says Americans don't believe
>there's an energy crisis because the prices are low. Why the OECD,
>Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US gas should cost at
>least $6 a gallon.
>
>Interesting quote in that story: 'Texaco chairman Peter Bijur once
>said that talk of failing energy supplies remind him of Cyprian, a
>Roman who warned in A.D. 250 that "the world has grown old... The
>rainfall and sun's warmth are both diminishing, the metals are nearly
>exhausted."'
>
>http://www.msnbc.com/news/732017.asp?cp1=1
>The Thirst for Oil
>
>Actually there's another extrapolation that might be useful, concerning this:
>
> >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that all
> >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.
>
>The Newsweek story also says this: "... it looked in 1970 as if oil
>would run out in 33 years-that is, next year. This year, the same
>calculation puts the day of reckoning in 2046."
>
>As Hakan said, survey techniques are much more accurate now. And
>that's it? We've got there, huh? No more progress, science stands
>still. In fact it's quite easy to get a handle on the rate of
>technological improvement. It's exponential, like computing power.
>Could just be you're looking at an ever-receding goalpost with
>Hubbert's Peak as well as with the final drop of oil being extracted.
>
>This is worth saying again:
>
> >One response to the $75 per bbl question above was this:
>
> >"... excellent point. We tried to stabilize the price of Gold for
> >years. Now its >200$ and mines are viable that weren't at $35/oz.
> >Plus, many commercial processes that used Gold have found
> >substitutes or ways to use less Gold. Gold-plated contacts are
> >alloyed with Nickel to extend and strengthen the microlayer of Gold.
> >Companies have arisen to reclaim Gold off e-scrap. Now, the analogy
> >is obvious. If Gold were held at $35, then none of these measures
> >would be existent. In the same way, tech-progress in energy has been
> >halted due to cheap oil. I have no doubt whatsoever that inventors
> >can come up with a way to make oil at $20-50 per barrel. So let the
> >price rise. I hope oil goes to $200 per barrel."
>
>Yup.
>
>So knock out ALL the artificial props from under US gas prices,
>charge the REAL price at the pump and everywhere else, then on top of
>that tax the hell out of it and use the taxes to promote energy
>efficiency, energy conservation, and renewable energy.
>
>And do it NOW - and not just because of Hubbert's Peak. Not even
>because of Hubbert's Peak, there are far more pressing reasons than
>that.
>
>I guess you might have to do something about your politicians first, LOL!
>
>Kei

RE: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels less polluting

[kirk]

One of the demonstrations to promote soy diesel was running a forklift in a
warehouse. Try this with dino fuel and you will see what they are promoting.
Your selection of fuel is the single largest thing you can do to reduce
toxins.

Kirk

-Original Message-
From: Christopher Witmer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 2:04 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary*
diesels less polluting


Thanks, Todd (and Steve Spence too). I understand the point about
skipping fossil fuels entirely. What would be the best approach to
obtaining a good particle trap / catalytic converter solution? Would a
catalytic converter salvaged from an automobile work? I have seen some
HUGE catalytic converters for massive diesel gensets, but they cost more
than I earn in a year (although they were cheap considering the scale at
which they would be used); other than that I haven't seen any
aftermarket converters for diesel, and besides, I'd like to do this on a
shoestring budget . . . they market particle traps for trucks in Japan,
but they are expen$ive as well . . . much more than I would want to pay.
If I could get enough heat out of the exhaust, I wonder if a chamber
equipped with an electrostatic particle arrestor similar to that used in
certain home air purification systems would work. Or, if I went with a
filter, would something as coarse as the air filters used on the intake
side of the engine be any good? Perhaps subjecting the exhaust to a
bubble wash would be a good way to get the particles out . . . Why isn't
there an article on how to do this in "Mechanics Illustrated" magazine?
In any case, I guess the proper order would be 1) get the heat out, 2)
get the particles out, and 3) get the NOx out -- right?

Keep those suggestions coming!

Gratefully,

Christopher Witmer
Tokyo

Appal Energy wrote:

> Don't see why, if you are looking for "less polluting," that you
> would contemplate used fossil fuel products as part of the fuel
> compliment. Manditorily this would increase PAHs over biodiesel,
> and introduce the probability of heavy metals in the emissions.
> As well, if you go to a vegetable oil based lubricating oil
> ("synthetic"), you reduce almost entirely any PAHs that can come
> from crankcase oils.
>
> Further, the biodiesel is sulfur free, permitting the inclusion
> of a catalytic converter to reduce NOx, where one couldn't be
> introduced before. (You mention this below.) Particulate traps
> can further reduce emissions, a considerably more easily applied
> technology in situations where there are constant loads, such as
> gensets.
>
> You mention exhaust heat, which can be used to reduce loads
> elsewhere when complimented with other technologies such as such
> as indirect heat exchange for space heating, gas absorption
> cooling or Stirling engines.
>
> Personally? Were it me? I'd abandon the idea of used fossil oils
> as a fuel compliment. Even with a turbocharger, you will not
> achieve as high an air to fuel ratio as is needed for highly
> efficient combustion. Best to use these fuels in something along
> the lines of combustion in a high pressure air stream, as in a
> boiler or space heat application for which it was designed.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Christopher Witmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:37 PM
> Subject: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary*
> diesels less polluting
>
>
>
>>O Fuelish Ones,
>>
>>I am trying to discover ways of making stationary diesels
>>
> (e.g.,
>
>>permanently installed electrical generator engines) less
>>
> polluting, and
>
>>I would greatly appreciate any suggestions, ideas, avenues to
>>
> pursue and
>
>>other tidbits of wisdom that might be useful.
>>
>>It stands to reason that there are a lot of things one would
>>
> hesitate to
>
>>try on an automobile, but which would't present any great
>>
> problems for a
>
>>diesel engine that was never moved around.
>>
>>Some possibilities that occur to me (I'm thinking out loud here
>>
> and
>
>>would appreciate other ideas as well as comments if any of
>>
> those listed
>
>>would seem to be unfruitful):
>>
>>* Combustion of biofuels (doh!) and (*if* they can be burned
>>
> cleanly
>
>>enough) waste petroleum based lubricating oils
>>
>>* Addition of water at just the right point in the cycle
>>
>>* Addition of methane at the air intake
>>
>>* Careful filtration of both lubricants and fuels
>>
>>* Optimum use of heat coming off the engine (also cools engine
>>
> better)
>
>>* Addition of a turbocharger
>>
>>* Addition of exhaust filtration/scrubbing device(s) --
>>
> preferably
>
>>buildable and maintainable by the user! -- again, bulky size
>>
> isn't so
>
>>much of an issue with the stationary engine
>>
>>* Addition of an exhaust catalytic converter *if* durable and
>>
> cheap enough!
>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Christopher Witmer
>>The Fuelish Acolyte
>>Tokyo
>>
>>
>>  

Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Kris Book]

Keith,

I think you've accidently hit on the best answer to our
energy problems. If we were to process all the politicians,
we'd have a huge reserve of oil. LOL

> 
> And do it NOW - and not just because of Hubbert's Peak.
> Not even 
> because of Hubbert's Peak, there are far more pressing
> reasons than 
> that.
> 
> I guess you might have to do something about your
> politicians first, LOL!
> 
> Keith
> 
> 


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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Hakan Falk]

Kris,

Sorry, to high water content, not feasible.

Hakan

At 08:05 AM 8/4/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Keith,
>
>I think you've accidently hit on the best answer to our
>energy problems. If we were to process all the politicians,
>we'd have a huge reserve of oil. LOL
>
> >
> > And do it NOW - and not just because of Hubbert's Peak.
> > Not even
> > because of Hubbert's Peak, there are far more pressing
> > reasons than
> > that.
> >
> > I guess you might have to do something about your
> > politicians first, LOL!
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
>
>
>__
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
>http://health.yahoo.com
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>I'm going to sink your battleship.

In what water?

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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

>I'm going to sink your battleship.
>
>Keith

PS:

This was a great summary.  Takes a lot of work.  I forwarded it to
several people who have expressed interest to me in water-specific
issues.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the people I
forwarded it to, an editor of an online mag, would want to publish it,
in effect.

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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Keith Addison]

Dear Hakan

I think we agree. I also think it doesn't matter. I believe our 
reasons are somewhat different, but, thinking about it, maybe they're 
not so different after all.

The situation will be fatal, yes, unless we do something about it. I 
think I do rather mean "we". The "authorities", whoever or whatever 
the hell they might be, have been sitting on their hands for several 
decades now and just junked us all up even more on fossil fuels. If 
we leave it to them, yes, we're doomed. And so are they, is the silly 
thing.

Margaret Mead's often-quoted statement is always apt: "Never 
underestimate the power of a small group of individuals to change the 
world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has."

Yes, big efforts on biofuels must be taken now, for many reasons. But 
if we leave it to the big guys, we'll wait forever, and they'll 
probably screw it all up anyway, judging on past performance.

So maybe we should change that "big efforts" into very many small 
efforts instead. I get the feeling it's happening, it's spreading 
fast. There are a lot of people all over the place who tirelessly 
promote biofuels, and they're most ingenious about it. Some people 
just get into it to save a bit of money, fair enough, but it's such a 
sheer thrill to break free of Big Oil that they start telling all 
their friends.

One great thing about all this is that it's invisible. How many 
gallons did homebrewers in the US make and use last year? Nobody has 
a clue. So, probably, nobody is going to do too much about it. 
Average fuel use is 600 gallons a year, @ $1.40 a gallon = $840. So 
1190 US homebrewers cost Big Oil $1million a year, and that's 714,000 
gallons of fossil-fuel not used. There are far more biodieselers than 
that in the US. Trying to clamp down on it could just make it worse 
(better!), and politically that might not be a very smart move.

By the way, I'm not really looking to technological advances to keep 
on discovering new oil reserves for ever, rather for much better ways 
of using it, and even more important, much better ways of not using 
it.

Regards

Keith

Hakan, you really made me blush in your other post. My humble thanks, 
I'm very glad I've been of help - but please don't expect too much of 
me!



>Dear Keith,
>
>My point about oil reserves, is that it does not matter if the predictions
>are wrong with a few hundreds of percent, the situation is fatal as it
>is. We share the opinion that, for many reasons, big efforts on bio
>fuels must taken now.
>
>Hakan
>
>
>At 10:44 PM 8/4/2002 +0900, you wrote:
> >womplex_oo1 wrote:
> >
> > >I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
> > >spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP World Oil
> > >Statistics website:
> > >
> > >http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
> > >
> > >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that all
> > >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.  By "run
> > >out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
> > >
> > >Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation however.
> > >Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal years,
> > >and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone from ever
> > >extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to occur
> > >sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the sharper the
> > >decline in oil production.
> > >
> > >When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?
> >
> >There are some other extrapolations one could do. Take a range of
> >issues that positively scream for judicious application of the
> >precautionary principle and development of alternatives, however that
> >would threaten the immediate interests of the powers-that-be; then
> >calculate how long on average they manage to spend in denial, how
> >long on average they manage to drag their feet, how long they get
> >away with prolonged negotiations that only address part of the
> >problem and propose inadequate solutions, and how long the transition
> >period they manage to muscle across, add it all up, add 5, subtract
> >the square root of the number you started off with, cross your heart
> >and count to 13, and you have the number of decades after the point
> >at which something could still have been done about it. This might
> >perhaps be referred to as "Hubbert's Trough".
> >
> >Now isn't that young master Bush proposing to increase energy
> >consumption over the next decade or two?
> >
> >On the other hand, when energy prices shot up in California last
> >year, down went the demand. Maybe the market does indeed work
> >sometimes. The Newsweek story below says Americans don't believe
> >there's an energy crisis because the prices are low. Why the OECD,
> >Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US gas should cost at
> >least $6 a gallon.
> >
> >Interesting quote in that story: 'Texaco chairman Peter Bijur once
> >said that talk of failing energy supplies remind h

Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste

[Keith Addison]

> >I'm going to sink your battleship.
>
>In what water?

The sea.


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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: Animal Waste

[Keith Addison]

Hi M

> >I'm going to sink your battleship.
> >
> >Keith
>
>PS:
>
>This was a great summary.  Takes a lot of work.

It's part of a job I was doing and had to postpone, so it's a few 
months out of date, doesn't make much difference though. It's just a 
compilation of news pieces mainly, there was more to it than that. 
Maybe I can get back to it soon and finish it.

>I forwarded it to
>several people who have expressed interest to me in water-specific
>issues.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the people I
>forwarded it to, an editor of an online mag, would want to publish it,
>in effect.

That's okay by me, spread it around by all means, I'm glad you think 
it's useful. If anyone wants to publish it though it'd be nice if 
they put a link to this:
http://journeytoforever.org/tree.html
Trees, soil and water

I'm going to expand that section soon, much more about water. But the 
three absolutely do go together.

regards

Keith


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[biofuel] (unknown)

[Steve Spence]

Subject: Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels 
less polluting
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:17:26 -0400
Organization: Green-trust.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.

just pick one up from a late model wreck.

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards:
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Christopher Witmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:03 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels
less polluting


> Thanks, Todd (and Steve Spence too). I understand the point about
> skipping fossil fuels entirely. What would be the best approach to
> obtaining a good particle trap / catalytic converter solution? Would a
> catalytic converter salvaged from an automobile work? I have seen some
> HUGE catalytic converters for massive diesel gensets, but they cost more
> than I earn in a year (although they were cheap considering the scale at
> which they would be used); other than that I haven't seen any
> aftermarket converters for diesel, and besides, I'd like to do this on a
> shoestring budget . . . they market particle traps for trucks in Japan,
> but they are expen$ive as well . . . much more than I would want to pay.
> If I could get enough heat out of the exhaust, I wonder if a chamber
> equipped with an electrostatic particle arrestor similar to that used in
> certain home air purification systems would work. Or, if I went with a
> filter, would something as coarse as the air filters used on the intake
> side of the engine be any good? Perhaps subjecting the exhaust to a
> bubble wash would be a good way to get the particles out . . . Why isn't
> there an article on how to do this in "Mechanics Illustrated" magazine?
> In any case, I guess the proper order would be 1) get the heat out, 2)
> get the particles out, and 3) get the NOx out -- right?
>
> Keep those suggestions coming!
>
> Gratefully,
>
> Christopher Witmer
> Tokyo
>
> Appal Energy wrote:
>
> > Don't see why, if you are looking for "less polluting," that you
> > would contemplate used fossil fuel products as part of the fuel
> > compliment. Manditorily this would increase PAHs over biodiesel,
> > and introduce the probability of heavy metals in the emissions.
> > As well, if you go to a vegetable oil based lubricating oil
> > ("synthetic"), you reduce almost entirely any PAHs that can come
> > from crankcase oils.
> >
> > Further, the biodiesel is sulfur free, permitting the inclusion
> > of a catalytic converter to reduce NOx, where one couldn't be
> > introduced before. (You mention this below.) Particulate traps
> > can further reduce emissions, a considerably more easily applied
> > technology in situations where there are constant loads, such as
> > gensets.
> >
> > You mention exhaust heat, which can be used to reduce loads
> > elsewhere when complimented with other technologies such as such
> > as indirect heat exchange for space heating, gas absorption
> > cooling or Stirling engines.
> >
> > Personally? Were it me? I'd abandon the idea of used fossil oils
> > as a fuel compliment. Even with a turbocharger, you will not
> > achieve as high an air to fuel ratio as is needed for highly
> > efficient combustion. Best to use these fuels in something along
> > the lines of combustion in a high pressure air stream, as in a
> > boiler or space heat application for which it was designed.
> >
> > Todd Swearingen
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Christopher Witmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:37 PM
> > Subject: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary*
> > diesels less polluting
> >
> >
> >
> >>O Fuelish Ones,
> >>
> >>I am trying to discover ways of making stationary diesels
> >>
> > (e.g.,
> >
> >>permanently installed electrical generator engines) less
> >>
> > polluting, and
> >
> >>I would greatly appreciate any suggestions, ideas, avenues to
> >>
> > pursue and
> >
> >>other tidbits of wisdom that might be useful.
> >>
> >>It stands to reason that there are a lot of things one would
> >>
> > hesitate to
> >
> >>try on an automobile, but which would't present any great
> >>
> > problems for a
> >
> >>diesel engine that was never moved around.
> >>
> >>Some possibilities that occur to me (I'm thinking out loud here
> >>
> > and
> >
> >>would appreciate other ideas as well as comments if any of
> >>
> > those listed
> >
> >>would seem to be unfruitful):
> >>
> >>* Combustion of biofuels (doh!) and (*if* they can be burned
> >>
> > cleanly
> >
> >>enough) waste petroleum based lubricating oils
> >>
> >>* Addition of water at just the right point in the 

Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Appal Energy]

The real question is, "Should biofuels be used to preserve the
status quo with a "green conscience," or applied only in those
venues where consumers are already exercising a green
conscience?"

In other words, should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her
fuel to a construction company that removes mountain tops or
should it sell to construction firms that build in a
"sustainably" conservative fashion, blending into the landscape?

Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to logging
companies that wantonly practice clear cutting, or to companies
that are acting cohesively within healthy land "management"
guidelines?

Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to farmers
who actively use biotech and implement soil depleting practices,
or to farmers who are oriented to using less or no chemicals and
practicing more nurturing techniques?

Should a biodiesel manufacturer offer a discount to automobile
owners who put the fuel into 50 mpg passenger cars and a
dis-benefit to energy hogs?

Biofuels in pursuit of maintaining the status quo only become a
temporary stop gap.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak


>
> Dear Keith,
>
> My point about oil reserves, is that it does not matter if the
predictions
> are wrong with a few hundreds of percent, the situation is
fatal as it
> is. We share the opinion that, for many reasons, big efforts on
bio
> fuels must taken now.
>
> Hakan
>
>
> At 10:44 PM 8/4/2002 +0900, you wrote:
> >womplex_oo1 wrote:
> >
> > >I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
> > >spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP
World Oil
> > >Statistics website:
> > >
> >
>http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
> > >
> > >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates
that all
> > >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.
By "run
> > >out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
> > >
> > >Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation
however.
> > >Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal
years,
> > >and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone
from ever
> > >extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to
occur
> > >sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the
sharper the
> > >decline in oil production.
> > >
> > >When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?
> >
> >There are some other extrapolations one could do. Take a range
of
> >issues that positively scream for judicious application of the
> >precautionary principle and development of alternatives,
however that
> >would threaten the immediate interests of the powers-that-be;
then
> >calculate how long on average they manage to spend in denial,
how
> >long on average they manage to drag their feet, how long they
get
> >away with prolonged negotiations that only address part of the
> >problem and propose inadequate solutions, and how long the
transition
> >period they manage to muscle across, add it all up, add 5,
subtract
> >the square root of the number you started off with, cross your
heart
> >and count to 13, and you have the number of decades after the
point
> >at which something could still have been done about it. This
might
> >perhaps be referred to as "Hubbert's Trough".
> >
> >Now isn't that young master Bush proposing to increase energy
> >consumption over the next decade or two?
> >
> >On the other hand, when energy prices shot up in California
last
> >year, down went the demand. Maybe the market does indeed work
> >sometimes. The Newsweek story below says Americans don't
believe
> >there's an energy crisis because the prices are low. Why the
OECD,
> >Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US gas should
cost at
> >least $6 a gallon.
> >
> >Interesting quote in that story: 'Texaco chairman Peter Bijur
once
> >said that talk of failing energy supplies remind him of
Cyprian, a
> >Roman who warned in A.D. 250 that "the world has grown old...
The
> >rainfall and sun's warmth are both diminishing, the metals are
nearly
> >exhausted."'
> >
> >http://www.msnbc.com/news/732017.asp?cp1=1
> >The Thirst for Oil
> >
> >Actually there's another extrapolation that might be useful,
concerning this:
> >
> > >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates
that all
> > >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.
> >
> >The Newsweek story also says this: "... it looked in 1970 as
if oil
> >would run out in 33 years-that is, next year. This year, the
same
> >calculation puts the day of reckoning in 2046."
> >
> >As Hakan said, survey techniques are much more accurate now.
And
> >that's it? We've got there, huh? No more progress, science
stands
> >still. In fact it's quite easy to get a handle on the rate of
> >technological improvement. It's exponential, like computing
power.
> >Could just be you're looking at an ever-

Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Hakan Falk]

Dear Todd,

This kind of thinking is not productive and if applied, it would
lead to unwanted side effects. It was the reason for the 1973
oil crises and recently Saddam Hussein tried to pull it off
again. Who is the judge and who has the rights, for sure it
is neither Saddam Hussein nor US or indeed myself.

We should keep away from political games, if we with seriousness
pursue sustainable energy alternatives. It is enough politics,
bad or good, in this world.

Let us make bio fuels to a blooming industry, preferable in
more hands than current petroleum industry. We need some
more independence from fossil fuels and if possible from the
current petroleum industry. The only thing that counts at the
end is financial success. That does not mean a low price, it
is possible to find a lot of customers for high quality also.

Hakan


At 01:18 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>The real question is, "Should biofuels be used to preserve the
>status quo with a "green conscience," or applied only in those
>venues where consumers are already exercising a green
>conscience?"
>
>In other words, should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her
>fuel to a construction company that removes mountain tops or
>should it sell to construction firms that build in a
>"sustainably" conservative fashion, blending into the landscape?
>
>Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to logging
>companies that wantonly practice clear cutting, or to companies
>that are acting cohesively within healthy land "management"
>guidelines?
>
>Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to farmers
>who actively use biotech and implement soil depleting practices,
>or to farmers who are oriented to using less or no chemicals and
>practicing more nurturing techniques?
>
>Should a biodiesel manufacturer offer a discount to automobile
>owners who put the fuel into 50 mpg passenger cars and a
>dis-benefit to energy hogs?
>
>Biofuels in pursuit of maintaining the status quo only become a
>temporary stop gap.
>
>Todd Swearingen
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:26 AM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak
>
>
> >
> > Dear Keith,
> >
> > My point about oil reserves, is that it does not matter if the
>predictions
> > are wrong with a few hundreds of percent, the situation is
>fatal as it
> > is. We share the opinion that, for many reasons, big efforts on
>bio
> > fuels must taken now.
> >
> > Hakan
> >
> >
> > At 10:44 PM 8/4/2002 +0900, you wrote:
> > >womplex_oo1 wrote:
> > >
> > > >I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
> > > >spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP
>World Oil
> > > >Statistics website:
> > > >
> > >
> >http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
> > > >
> > > >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates
>that all
> > > >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.
>By "run
> > > >out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
> > > >
> > > >Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation
>however.
> > > >Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal
>years,
> > > >and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone
>from ever
> > > >extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to
>occur
> > > >sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the
>sharper the
> > > >decline in oil production.
> > > >
> > > >When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?
> > >
> > >There are some other extrapolations one could do. Take a range
>of
> > >issues that positively scream for judicious application of the
> > >precautionary principle and development of alternatives,
>however that
> > >would threaten the immediate interests of the powers-that-be;
>then
> > >calculate how long on average they manage to spend in denial,
>how
> > >long on average they manage to drag their feet, how long they
>get
> > >away with prolonged negotiations that only address part of the
> > >problem and propose inadequate solutions, and how long the
>transition
> > >period they manage to muscle across, add it all up, add 5,
>subtract
> > >the square root of the number you started off with, cross your
>heart
> > >and count to 13, and you have the number of decades after the
>point
> > >at which something could still have been done about it. This
>might
> > >perhaps be referred to as "Hubbert's Trough".
> > >
> > >Now isn't that young master Bush proposing to increase energy
> > >consumption over the next decade or two?
> > >
> > >On the other hand, when energy prices shot up in California
>last
> > >year, down went the demand. Maybe the market does indeed work
> > >sometimes. The Newsweek story below says Americans don't
>believe
> > >there's an energy crisis because the prices are low. Why the
>OECD,
> > >Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US gas should
>cost at
> > >least $6 a gallon.
> > >
> > >Interesting quote in that story: 'Texaco chairma

[biofuel] WVO products

[William Clark]

Does anybody out there have ideas about making other products from WVO, such as 
hydraulic fluid or transmission fluid? Are these possible? If so, what is the 
process? I am no chemist, but I can follow a recipe.

Bill C.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
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Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels less polluting

[Greg and April]

I heard that this while this is possable, you need to change the oil, every
few hundred miles.  Whats the truth?

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 18:02
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels
less polluting


> Don't see why, if you are looking for "less polluting," that you
> would contemplate used fossil fuel products as part of the fuel
> compliment. Manditorily this would increase PAHs over biodiesel,
> and introduce the probability of heavy metals in the emissions.
> As well, if you go to a vegetable oil based lubricating oil
> ("synthetic"), you reduce almost entirely any PAHs that can come
> from crankcase oils.
>





Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc.]

This is true. Even fuel efficiency does not go to the heart of the matter
since people just "do more of it", the more economical you make it for them.

A conserver lifestyle, and sustainability thinking, are very much a part of
making biofuels a viable contributor to the overall basket of the many forms
of renewable energy that if summed together, can mitigate the almost total
dependence we have on fossil fuels at this time.


Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
http://www.biofuels.ca
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 



on 8/4/02 10:18 AM, Appal Energy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> The real question is, "Should biofuels be used to preserve the
> status quo with a "green conscience," or applied only in those
> venues where consumers are already exercising a green
> conscience?"
> 
> In other words, should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her
> fuel to a construction company that removes mountain tops or
> should it sell to construction firms that build in a
> "sustainably" conservative fashion, blending into the landscape?
> 
> Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to logging
> companies that wantonly practice clear cutting, or to companies
> that are acting cohesively within healthy land "management"
> guidelines?
> 
> Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to farmers
> who actively use biotech and implement soil depleting practices,
> or to farmers who are oriented to using less or no chemicals and
> practicing more nurturing techniques?
> 
> Should a biodiesel manufacturer offer a discount to automobile
> owners who put the fuel into 50 mpg passenger cars and a
> dis-benefit to energy hogs?
> 
> Biofuels in pursuit of maintaining the status quo only become a
> temporary stop gap.
> 
> Todd Swearingen
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak
> 
> 
>> 
>> Dear Keith,
>> 
>> My point about oil reserves, is that it does not matter if the
> predictions
>> are wrong with a few hundreds of percent, the situation is
> fatal as it
>> is. We share the opinion that, for many reasons, big efforts on
> bio
>> fuels must taken now.
>> 
>> Hakan
>> 
>> 
>> At 10:44 PM 8/4/2002 +0900, you wrote:
>>> womplex_oo1 wrote:
>>> 
 I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
 spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP
> World Oil
 Statistics website:
 
>>> 
>> http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
 
 A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates
> that all
 the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.
> By "run
 out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
 
 Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation
> however.
 Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal
> years,
 and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone
> from ever
 extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to
> occur
 sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the
> sharper the
 decline in oil production.
 
 When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?
>>> 
>>> There are some other extrapolations one could do. Take a range
> of
>>> issues that positively scream for judicious application of the
>>> precautionary principle and development of alternatives,
> however that
>>> would threaten the immediate interests of the powers-that-be;
> then
>>> calculate how long on average they manage to spend in denial,
> how
>>> long on average they manage to drag their feet, how long they
> get
>>> away with prolonged negotiations that only address part of the
>>> problem and propose inadequate solutions, and how long the
> transition
>>> period they manage to muscle across, add it all up, add 5,
> subtract
>>> the square root of the number you started off with, cross your
> heart
>>> and count to 13, and you have the number of decades after the
> point
>>> at which something could still have been done about it. This
> might
>>> perhaps be referred to as "Hubbert's Trough".
>>> 
>>> Now isn't that young master Bush proposing to increase energy
>>> consumption over the next decade or two?
>>> 
>>> On the other hand, when energy prices shot up in California
> last
>>> year, down went the demand. Maybe the market does indeed work
>>> sometimes. The Newsweek story below says Americans don't
> believe
>>> there's an energy crisis because the prices are low. Why the
> OECD,
>>> Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US gas should
> cost at
>>> least $6 a gallon.
>>> 
>>> Interesting quote in that story: 'Texaco chairman Peter Bijur
> once
>>> said that talk of failing energy supplies remind him of
> Cyprian, a
>>> Roman who warned in A.D. 250 that "the world has grown old...
> The
>>> rainf

[biofuel] On The Duty of Marketing Biofuels - was Hubbert Peak

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc.]

Dear Hakan:


"The only thing that counts at the end is financial success."

Do you hear yourself, sir? It is that exclusive form of accounting (and
thinking!) that has gotten us into this mess, and it is most assuredly not
the way out of it.

 Keep away from politics? Politics is life. You can't keep away from
politics any more than you can run away from pollution.

The only thing that counts, at the end, is how well we have lived, and what
we have accomplished to the benefit of future generations - all people, not
just the few percent that are so lucky and wealthy enough to steal resources
out from under everyone else.

I am not anti-profit, or anti-business. I am the opposite. We need business,
and business can indeed flourish under a higher moral standard than it has
been operating under.  We create opportunities in green business. And we can
be normative, we can say "ought to be" a certain way. We can do things that
steer the consumers of our products into a certain way of thinking, and we
should do this at every opportunity.

Todd is right on the mark. Being in biofuels, and not educating on
consumption and lifestyle, etc. is just selling another barrel of widgits
into a system that is fundamentally flawed because it never took into
account the limits of the resources that make it possible. The creators
lived in a different time, and did not have to - in fact could not even
fathom - that they needed to include this in their economic system. We now
know that resources are finite, and that we have no alternative to adapt our
economics to reality as it has now been revealed to us by exploration,
science and statistics.

 Hardly airy-fairy stuff unworthy of consideration by those in business. A
business that only looks to quarter to quarter profits may not be around
very long. A business that studies and truly understands the environment in
which it is operating, and which it is projected will be the future
operating environment, will be around for much longer, have lower costs of
operation, less turnover, a better public image, and products that meet real
needs, not advertising falsehoods.

There are some very good and convincing resources on the general topic that
you can read, and from your statement I assume you have not done so.

One of my favorites is by Herman Daly. The introduction alone is worth
reading. You can probably get it through your library. It is called:

"Beyond Growth"


Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
Recipient: WBCSD Certificate in Sustainable Business. (http://www.wbcsd.ch/)
Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
http://www.biofuels.ca
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 






on 8/4/02 10:49 AM, Hakan Falk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> 
> Dear Todd,
> 
> This kind of thinking is not productive and if applied, it would
> lead to unwanted side effects. It was the reason for the 1973
> oil crises and recently Saddam Hussein tried to pull it off
> again. Who is the judge and who has the rights, for sure it
> is neither Saddam Hussein nor US or indeed myself.
> 
> We should keep away from political games, if we with seriousness
> pursue sustainable energy alternatives. It is enough politics,
> bad or good, in this world.
> 
> Let us make bio fuels to a blooming industry, preferable in
> more hands than current petroleum industry. We need some
> more independence from fossil fuels and if possible from the
> current petroleum industry. The only thing that counts at the
> end is financial success. That does not mean a low price, it
> is possible to find a lot of customers for high quality also.
> 
> Hakan
> 
> 
> At 01:18 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>> The real question is, "Should biofuels be used to preserve the
>> status quo with a "green conscience," or applied only in those
>> venues where consumers are already exercising a green
>> conscience?"
>> 
>> In other words, should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her
>> fuel to a construction company that removes mountain tops or
>> should it sell to construction firms that build in a
>> "sustainably" conservative fashion, blending into the landscape?
>> 
>> Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to logging
>> companies that wantonly practice clear cutting, or to companies
>> that are acting cohesively within healthy land "management"
>> guidelines?
>> 
>> Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to farmers
>> who actively use biotech and implement soil depleting practices,
>> or to farmers who are oriented to using less or no chemicals and
>> practicing more nurturing techniques?
>> 
>> Should a biodiesel manufacturer offer a discount to automobile
>> owners who put the fuel into 50 mpg passenger cars and a
>> dis-benefit to energy hogs?
>> 
>> Biofuels in pursuit of maintaining the status quo only become a
>> temporary stop gap.
>> 
>> Todd Swearingen
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL

Re: [biofuel] WVO products

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc.]

Not from WVO, but we can make from SVO all sorts of lubricants.

Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
http://www.biofuels.ca
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 





on 8/4/02 10:57 AM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Does anybody out there have ideas about making other products from WVO, such
> as hydraulic fluid or transmission fluid? Are these possible? If so, what is
> the process? I am no chemist, but I can follow a recipe.
> 
> Bill C.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> 
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels less polluting

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc.]

Canola and HOSO (high oleic sunflower oil) lubricating oils already exist
and are proving themselves nicely.


Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
http://www.biofuels.ca
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 




on 8/4/02 11:08 AM, Greg and April at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I heard that this while this is possable, you need to change the oil, every
> few hundred miles.  Whats the truth?
> 
> Greg H.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 18:02
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels
> less polluting
> 
> 
>> Don't see why, if you are looking for "less polluting," that you
>> would contemplate used fossil fuel products as part of the fuel
>> compliment. Manditorily this would increase PAHs over biodiesel,
>> and introduce the probability of heavy metals in the emissions.
>> As well, if you go to a vegetable oil based lubricating oil
>> ("synthetic"), you reduce almost entirely any PAHs that can come
>> from crankcase oils.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> 
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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Re: [biofuel] WVO products

[Steve Spence]

http://www.greenoil-online.com/ is one source of lubricating oils from 
vegetable oil.


-- Original Message --
From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Date:  Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:43:48 -0700

>Not from WVO, but we can make from SVO all sorts of lubricants.
>
>Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
>Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
>Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
>1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
>Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
>http://www.biofuels.ca
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>
>
>
>
>on 8/4/02 10:57 AM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Does anybody out there have ideas about making other products from WVO, such
>> as hydraulic fluid or transmission fluid? Are these possible? If so, what is
>> the process? I am no chemist, but I can follow a recipe.
>> 
>> Bill C.
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>> 
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> 
>> Biofuels list archives:
>> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>> 
>> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> 
>> 
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>

--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter 
& Discussion Boards:
http://www.green-trust.org
Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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Re: [biofuel] WVO products

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc.]

RE: Greenoil  - 


When that US company started out, they got their oil - Canola oil - from Red
Deer, Alberta. I am not sure where they source their base oils now.

Cargill also offers some technical oils based on Canola.


---


As for Neoteric's lines (and more information will be posted soon on this on
our web site):

We offer proven additives to make a full range of oils locally in your
region  (anywhere in the world), from  high proportions of local oils and a
small percentage of the needed additives.



 Cold pressed rapeseed oil is most often the oil used. (Other oils are
possible to use, but customers must check this out with us first!)

In addition to the lubricants, there are additive packages to make a reduced
viscosity, stable sort of "bio diesel" without the need for
transesterification.  Manual mixing, as simple as a canoe paddle in a drum.

It can be blended in any proportion with diesel fuel.

NOTE: Not currently registered with US EPA, so not available in the USA
except for legitimate testing. This will change.

This can be used in IDI engines. For DI engines, we recommend that heating
also be done, so use a VEG-Therm.  It also increases horsepower and fuel
economy compared to diesel. Cold starts on this blend go very well. With
cold pressed rapeseed oil and the additive, cloud point is well below
freezing, so it can be used in winter, especially with SVO Canola.
  Emissions testing is still ongoing, but should be favorable since it is
basically providing a lighter viscosity SVO by chemical thinning, and the
mixture is also stable in storage for a reasonable period of time. Worldwide
patented and over 10 years of R&D. You must obtain enough at a time to make
shipping make any sense, please don't inquire looking for a 20 L pail of it!
Bulk shipments can start to make sense - perhaps 4 drums at a time and on
up.



Unlike some other companies that produce additive packages for these
"bio-lubricants", these additive packages are not derived, with only a
percent or two in a couple of the products, from petrochemical (fossil)
industry but rather even the additives themselves are derived from renewable
sources.

This is somewhat unique, and a nice additional benefit, and also helps in
many cases in terms of CAS numbers, MSDS's, and shipping as non-hazardous
goods, by air, etc.

Here is a partial list of the oils that can be produced - biodegradable.

Diesel substitute
Diesel fuel lubricity additive
Bar and Chain and Tree Harvester Oil
Railroad switch oils
Construction form release oils
Guide oils (sawmills)
Multi-purpose lubricants
Solvent, cleaning agents (parts cleaning, degreaser effect enhancing)
Penetrating oil
Two-cycle oil
Outboard motor oil
Rust solvent
Pneumatic tool oil
Asphalt release and tool cleaner
Water-bike (underwater chain)
Milking machine oils
Hydraulic oil
Tractor transmission oil
Vacuum pump oil
Multi-purpose lubes for roller and hydrodynamic bearings.

We only stock one or two of these, however, arrangements can be made to ship
to almost any location for blending with local oils or oils that already
exist in the region (from food suppliers, etc.).

Regards,


Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
http://www.biofuels.ca
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 







on 8/4/02 11:49 AM, Steve Spence at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> http://www.greenoil-online.com/ is one source of lubricating oils from
> vegetable oil.
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> Date:  Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:43:48 -0700
> 
>> Not from WVO, but we can make from SVO all sorts of lubricants.
>> 
>> Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
>> Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
>> Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
>> 1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
>> Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
>> http://www.biofuels.ca
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> on 8/4/02 10:57 AM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>>> Does anybody out there have ideas about making other products from WVO, such
>>> as hydraulic fluid or transmission fluid? Are these possible? If so, what is
>>> the process? I am no chemist, but I can follow a recipe.
>>> 
>>> Bill C.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>> 
>>> Biofuels list archives:
>>> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>>> 
>>> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>>> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>> 
>> Biofuels list archives:
>> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>> 
>> Please do NOT send Unsu

Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels less polluting

[Party of Citizens]

Any comments on the CTV News clip a couple of nights ago re biofuel?
POC

On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Neoteric Biofuels Inc. wrote:

> Canola and HOSO (high oleic sunflower oil) lubricating oils already exist
> and are proving themselves nicely.
>
> Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
> Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
> Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
> 1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
> Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
> http://www.biofuels.ca
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> on 8/4/02 11:08 AM, Greg and April at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I heard that this while this is possable, you need to change the oil, every
> > few hundred miles.  Whats the truth?
> >
> > Greg H.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 18:02
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] WTK: tweaks and add-ons to make *stationary* diesels
> > less polluting
> >
> >
> >> Don't see why, if you are looking for "less polluting," that you
> >> would contemplate used fossil fuel products as part of the fuel
> >> compliment. Manditorily this would increase PAHs over biodiesel,
> >> and introduce the probability of heavy metals in the emissions.
> >> As well, if you go to a vegetable oil based lubricating oil
> >> ("synthetic"), you reduce almost entirely any PAHs that can come
> >> from crankcase oils.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Appal Energy]

Hakan,

I would hope that you could elaborate on your thought process as
to how delivery of biofuels to precise markets, preferably
markets that are already praciticing or exibiting "green
conscience,"  is a direct corollary to any historical oil supply
restrictions initiated by Mid-East nation states and or OPEC
nation states.

There exist "rewards" marketwide for those who exibit desired
behavior patterns, patterns that fall in line with manufacturer's
and distributor's desired end results. "Sales" and price
incentives are used to maintain and/or induce consumption,
thereby maintaining demand for a manufacture's services. Why
should biofuels manufacture and distribution not have its own
incentives, following specific environmental ethics, effectively
distributing to end users who are more inclined to a sustainable
ethic than those who are not?

This is not a political "game." It's a matter of principle and
ethics. Let the manufacturer who is only concerned with "monetary
utility" market to all who can pay the toll. Let the manufacturer
who is concerned more with "environmental utility" select and/or
groom his or her clientele to achieve the greatest gain in that
direction.

Unfortunately, many people believe that simple fixes, like
biofuels use rather than petrol, are some form of "magic pill"
that solve the problems associated with energy. The sad truth of
the matter is that the consumption aspect of energy and the ends
to which the consumption is put to are considerably more
important than the energy issue itself. To not include a cradle
to grave principled and ethical approach to biofuels consumption
wherever possible is nothing more than  the same form of
irresponsibility exhibited by the very idustry that biofuels is
perceived as demonizing.

And not to be intentionally contrary, but I hesitate at great
length to agree that "The only thing that counts at the end is
financial success." I think the following expresses the fallacy
of such an approach far better than my words might

Only after the last tree has been cut down,
Only after the last river has been poisoned,
Only after the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.

Cree Indian prophecy.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak


>
>
> Dear Todd,
>
> This kind of thinking is not productive and if applied, it
would
> lead to unwanted side effects. It was the reason for the 1973
> oil crises and recently Saddam Hussein tried to pull it off
> again. Who is the judge and who has the rights, for sure it
> is neither Saddam Hussein nor US or indeed myself.
>
> We should keep away from political games, if we with
seriousness
> pursue sustainable energy alternatives. It is enough politics,
> bad or good, in this world.
>
> Let us make bio fuels to a blooming industry, preferable in
> more hands than current petroleum industry. We need some
> more independence from fossil fuels and if possible from the
> current petroleum industry. The only thing that counts at the
> end is financial success. That does not mean a low price, it
> is possible to find a lot of customers for high quality also.
>
> Hakan
>
>
> At 01:18 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >The real question is, "Should biofuels be used to preserve the
> >status quo with a "green conscience," or applied only in those
> >venues where consumers are already exercising a green
> >conscience?"
> >
> >In other words, should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or
her
> >fuel to a construction company that removes mountain tops or
> >should it sell to construction firms that build in a
> >"sustainably" conservative fashion, blending into the
landscape?
> >
> >Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to
logging
> >companies that wantonly practice clear cutting, or to
companies
> >that are acting cohesively within healthy land "management"
> >guidelines?
> >
> >Should a biodiesel manufacturer sell his or her fuel to
farmers
> >who actively use biotech and implement soil depleting
practices,
> >or to farmers who are oriented to using less or no chemicals
and
> >practicing more nurturing techniques?
> >
> >Should a biodiesel manufacturer offer a discount to automobile
> >owners who put the fuel into 50 mpg passenger cars and a
> >dis-benefit to energy hogs?
> >
> >Biofuels in pursuit of maintaining the status quo only become
a
> >temporary stop gap.
> >
> >Todd Swearingen
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:26 AM
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Keith,
> > >
> > > My point about oil reserves, is that it does not matter if
the
> >predictions
> > > are wrong with a few hundreds of percent, the situation is
> >fatal as it
> > > is. We share the opinion that, for many reasons, big
efforts on
> >bio
> > > fuels must taken now.
>

Re: [biofuel] WVO products

[Steve Spence]

please do not use "biodiesel" (even "sort of") as a description for
non-transesterified vegetable oil. It's confusing at best, and misleading at
worst.


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards:
http://www.green-trust.org
Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Biofuel-JTF" 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO products


> RE: Greenoil  -
>
>
> When that US company started out, they got their oil - Canola oil - from
Red
> Deer, Alberta. I am not sure where they source their base oils now.
>
> Cargill also offers some technical oils based on Canola.
>
>
> ---
>
>
> As for Neoteric's lines (and more information will be posted soon on this
on
> our web site):
>
> We offer proven additives to make a full range of oils locally in your
> region  (anywhere in the world), from  high proportions of local oils and
a
> small percentage of the needed additives.
>
>
>
>  Cold pressed rapeseed oil is most often the oil used. (Other oils are
> possible to use, but customers must check this out with us first!)
>
> In addition to the lubricants, there are additive packages to make a
reduced
> viscosity, stable sort of "bio diesel" without the need for
> transesterification.  Manual mixing, as simple as a canoe paddle in a
drum.
>
> It can be blended in any proportion with diesel fuel.
>
> NOTE: Not currently registered with US EPA, so not available in the USA
> except for legitimate testing. This will change.
>
> This can be used in IDI engines. For DI engines, we recommend that heating
> also be done, so use a VEG-Therm.  It also increases horsepower and fuel
> economy compared to diesel. Cold starts on this blend go very well. With
> cold pressed rapeseed oil and the additive, cloud point is well below
> freezing, so it can be used in winter, especially with SVO Canola.
>   Emissions testing is still ongoing, but should be favorable since it is
> basically providing a lighter viscosity SVO by chemical thinning, and the
> mixture is also stable in storage for a reasonable period of time.
Worldwide
> patented and over 10 years of R&D. You must obtain enough at a time to
make
> shipping make any sense, please don't inquire looking for a 20 L pail of
it!
> Bulk shipments can start to make sense - perhaps 4 drums at a time and on
> up.
> 
>
>
> Unlike some other companies that produce additive packages for these
> "bio-lubricants", these additive packages are not derived, with only a
> percent or two in a couple of the products, from petrochemical (fossil)
> industry but rather even the additives themselves are derived from
renewable
> sources.
>
> This is somewhat unique, and a nice additional benefit, and also helps in
> many cases in terms of CAS numbers, MSDS's, and shipping as non-hazardous
> goods, by air, etc.
>
> Here is a partial list of the oils that can be produced - biodegradable.
>
> Diesel substitute
> Diesel fuel lubricity additive
> Bar and Chain and Tree Harvester Oil
> Railroad switch oils
> Construction form release oils
> Guide oils (sawmills)
> Multi-purpose lubricants
> Solvent, cleaning agents (parts cleaning, degreaser effect enhancing)
> Penetrating oil
> Two-cycle oil
> Outboard motor oil
> Rust solvent
> Pneumatic tool oil
> Asphalt release and tool cleaner
> Water-bike (underwater chain)
> Milking machine oils
> Hydraulic oil
> Tractor transmission oil
> Vacuum pump oil
> Multi-purpose lubes for roller and hydrodynamic bearings.
>
> We only stock one or two of these, however, arrangements can be made to
ship
> to almost any location for blending with local oils or oils that already
> exist in the region (from food suppliers, etc.).
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
> Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
> Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
> 1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
> Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
> http://www.biofuels.ca
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> on 8/4/02 11:49 AM, Steve Spence at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > http://www.greenoil-online.com/ is one source of lubricating oils from
> > vegetable oil.
> >
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > Date:  Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:43:48 -0700
> >
> >> Not from WVO, but we can make from SVO all sorts of lubricants.
> >>
> >> Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
> >> Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
> >> Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
> >> 1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
> >> Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
> >> http://www.biofuels.ca
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> on 8/4/02 10:57 AM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >>> Does anybody out there have ideas about making other products from
WVO, such
> >>> as hydraulic fluid or transmission fluid? Are these 

Re: [biofuel] WVO products

[Steve Spence]

You'd have to ask Ira where he sources his raw material. I doubt he'd tell
you ;-)


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards:
http://www.green-trust.org
Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Biofuel-JTF" 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO products


> RE: Greenoil  -
>
>
> When that US company started out, they got their oil - Canola oil - from
Red
> Deer, Alberta. I am not sure where they source their base oils now.
>
> Cargill also offers some technical oils based on Canola.
>
>
> ---
>
>
> As for Neoteric's lines (and more information will be posted soon on this
on
> our web site):
>
> We offer proven additives to make a full range of oils locally in your
> region  (anywhere in the world), from  high proportions of local oils and
a
> small percentage of the needed additives.
>
>
>
>  Cold pressed rapeseed oil is most often the oil used. (Other oils are
> possible to use, but customers must check this out with us first!)
>
> In addition to the lubricants, there are additive packages to make a
reduced
> viscosity, stable sort of "bio diesel" without the need for
> transesterification.  Manual mixing, as simple as a canoe paddle in a
drum.
>
> It can be blended in any proportion with diesel fuel.
>
> NOTE: Not currently registered with US EPA, so not available in the USA
> except for legitimate testing. This will change.
>
> This can be used in IDI engines. For DI engines, we recommend that heating
> also be done, so use a VEG-Therm.  It also increases horsepower and fuel
> economy compared to diesel. Cold starts on this blend go very well. With
> cold pressed rapeseed oil and the additive, cloud point is well below
> freezing, so it can be used in winter, especially with SVO Canola.
>   Emissions testing is still ongoing, but should be favorable since it is
> basically providing a lighter viscosity SVO by chemical thinning, and the
> mixture is also stable in storage for a reasonable period of time.
Worldwide
> patented and over 10 years of R&D. You must obtain enough at a time to
make
> shipping make any sense, please don't inquire looking for a 20 L pail of
it!
> Bulk shipments can start to make sense - perhaps 4 drums at a time and on
> up.
> 
>
>
> Unlike some other companies that produce additive packages for these
> "bio-lubricants", these additive packages are not derived, with only a
> percent or two in a couple of the products, from petrochemical (fossil)
> industry but rather even the additives themselves are derived from
renewable
> sources.
>
> This is somewhat unique, and a nice additional benefit, and also helps in
> many cases in terms of CAS numbers, MSDS's, and shipping as non-hazardous
> goods, by air, etc.
>
> Here is a partial list of the oils that can be produced - biodegradable.
>
> Diesel substitute
> Diesel fuel lubricity additive
> Bar and Chain and Tree Harvester Oil
> Railroad switch oils
> Construction form release oils
> Guide oils (sawmills)
> Multi-purpose lubricants
> Solvent, cleaning agents (parts cleaning, degreaser effect enhancing)
> Penetrating oil
> Two-cycle oil
> Outboard motor oil
> Rust solvent
> Pneumatic tool oil
> Asphalt release and tool cleaner
> Water-bike (underwater chain)
> Milking machine oils
> Hydraulic oil
> Tractor transmission oil
> Vacuum pump oil
> Multi-purpose lubes for roller and hydrodynamic bearings.
>
> We only stock one or two of these, however, arrangements can be made to
ship
> to almost any location for blending with local oils or oils that already
> exist in the region (from food suppliers, etc.).
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
> Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
> Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
> 1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
> Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
> http://www.biofuels.ca
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> on 8/4/02 11:49 AM, Steve Spence at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > http://www.greenoil-online.com/ is one source of lubricating oils from
> > vegetable oil.
> >
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > Date:  Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:43:48 -0700
> >
> >> Not from WVO, but we can make from SVO all sorts of lubricants.
> >>
> >> Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
> >> Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
> >> Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
> >> 1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
> >> Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
> >> http://www.biofuels.ca
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> on 8/4/02 10:57 AM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >>> Does anybody out there have ideas about making other products from
WVO, such
> >>> as hydraulic fluid or transmission fluid? Are these possible? If so,
what is
> >>> the process? I am no chemist, but I ca

Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Curtis Sakima]

Sigh ...

What can I say??  I AGREE with both of you ... and yet
I DISAGREE with both of you...

Oh well

Curtis


--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hakan,

-snip-
 
And not to be intentionally contrary, but I hesitate
at great length to agree that "The only thing that
counts at the end is financial success." I think the
following expresses the fallacy of such an approach
far better than my words might
 
Only after the last tree has been cut down,
Only after the last river has been poisoned,
Only after the last fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.
 
Cree Indian prophecy.
 
Todd Swearingen

 
- Original Message -

From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Dear Todd,

This kind of thinking is not productive and if
applied, it would lead to unwanted side effects.

snip- 

We should keep away from political games, if we with
seriousness pursue sustainable energy alternatives. It
is enough politics, bad or good, in this world.

snip--

The only thing that counts at the end is financial
success. That does not mean a low price, it is
possible to find a lot of customers for high quality
also.

Hakan


=
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[biofuel] Re: Hubbert Peak

[womplex_oo1]

You say gold was once trading at $35/oz and is now trading at 
$200/oz., which makes all kinds of new gold mines economically viable 
that weren't before?  First, your quote on the price of gold isn't 
correct, according to the 24-hr live-line gold is currently trading 
at $307.10/oz.

http://www.kitco.com/reports/

Second, half a century ago coffee was served for 2 cents for a cup, 
and now the price is around 85 cents.  This is a result of inflation, 
not depletion of the resource.

If the price of oil goes up, it will either be because of increased 
demand, or a supply shortfall.  Depleted oil reserves will mean that 
the cost of extracting oil will increase, production will decrease, 
and storage/shipping lines will be working below capacity which will 
compound the price increase.  So I don't understand where the idea 
comes from that a rising price will suddenly make previously 
uneconomical reserves viable?  Sales will decrease substantially.  
Increased expense & lower revenue destroys profit.  In my 
understanding, whether a resource is economically recoverable or not 
depends on profit, not price.

Opinion?


--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> womplex_oo1 wrote:
> 
> >I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
> >spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP World 
Oil
> >Statistics website:
> >
> >http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
> >
> >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that 
all
> >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.  By "run
> >out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
> >
> >Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation however.
> >Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal years,
> >and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone from 
ever
> >extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to occur
> >sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the sharper 
the
> >decline in oil production.
> >
> >When do you think the Hubbert Peak will occur?
> 
> There are some other extrapolations one could do. Take a range of 
> issues that positively scream for judicious application of the 
> precautionary principle and development of alternatives, however 
that 
> would threaten the immediate interests of the powers-that-be; then 
> calculate how long on average they manage to spend in denial, how 
> long on average they manage to drag their feet, how long they get 
> away with prolonged negotiations that only address part of the 
> problem and propose inadequate solutions, and how long the 
transition 
> period they manage to muscle across, add it all up, add 5, subtract 
> the square root of the number you started off with, cross your 
heart 
> and count to 13, and you have the number of decades after the point 
> at which something could still have been done about it. This might 
> perhaps be referred to as "Hubbert's Trough".
> 
> Now isn't that young master Bush proposing to increase energy 
> consumption over the next decade or two?
> 
> On the other hand, when energy prices shot up in California last 
> year, down went the demand. Maybe the market does indeed work 
> sometimes. The Newsweek story below says Americans don't believe 
> there's an energy crisis because the prices are low. Why the OECD, 
> Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US gas should cost 
at 
> least $6 a gallon.
> 
> Interesting quote in that story: 'Texaco chairman Peter Bijur once 
> said that talk of failing energy supplies remind him of Cyprian, a 
> Roman who warned in A.D. 250 that "the world has grown old... The 
> rainfall and sun's warmth are both diminishing, the metals are 
nearly 
> exhausted."'
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/732017.asp?cp1=1
> The Thirst for Oil
> 
> Actually there's another extrapolation that might be useful, 
concerning this:
> 
> >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that 
all
> >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.
> 
> The Newsweek story also says this: "... it looked in 1970 as if oil 
> would run out in 33 years-that is, next year. This year, the same 
> calculation puts the day of reckoning in 2046."
> 
> As Hakan said, survey techniques are much more accurate now. And 
> that's it? We've got there, huh? No more progress, science stands 
> still. In fact it's quite easy to get a handle on the rate of 
> technological improvement. It's exponential, like computing power. 
> Could just be you're looking at an ever-receding goalpost with 
> Hubbert's Peak as well as with the final drop of oil being 
extracted.
> 
> This is worth saying again:
> 
> >One response to the $75 per bbl question above was this:
> 
> >"... excellent point. We tried to stabilize the price of Gold for 
> >years. Now its >200$ and mines are viable that weren't at $35/oz. 
> >Plus, many commercial processes that used Gold have found 
> >substitutes or ways to use less

Re: [biofuel] Re: Hubbert Peak

[Curtis Sakima]

Yeah, I once heard about the $6.00 per gallon too.  I
heard that the only reason why we only "see" $1.xx per
gallon is because the majority is subsidized by
tax-payer's money.

So how's alternative energy gonna compete??  The
fossil fuel user pays $6.00 per gallon.  $1.00/gal at
the pump + $5/gal through Form 1040.  Alternative
energy customer pays (example) $6/gallon at the AE
"pump" while still being "forced" to pay $5.00/gal to
the fossil fuel team.  After all, his monthly paycheck
still gets "1040'd" ... regardless of his fuelish
persuasion.  How can you win??

My 2nd comment regards predicting "when the oil will
run out".

Who the hell cares??  The point is "IT WILL RUN OUT". 
Which means that we should start alternative means of
Powering ourselves NOW!!

Our fossil fuel train is heading for brick wall.  I
see no point arguing whether the train is 1000 ft from
the wall ... or 500 ft from the wall ... or even 10 ft
from the wall.  We (as a country) need to simply jump
off.

Curtis

 

--somebody once commented that--

Todd, me, and a few million others keep saying US gas
should cost at least $6 a gallon.

-and somebody else made a comment that-


As Hakan said, survey techniques are much more
accurate now. And that's it? We've got there, huh? No
more progress, science stands still. In fact it's
quite easy to get a handle on the rate of
technological improvement. It's exponential, like
computing power. Could just be you're looking at an
ever-receding goalpost with Hubbert's Peak as well as
with the final drop of oil being extracted.


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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Appal Energy]

I suppose you could start by stating where it is and with what
that you agree or disagree.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Curtis Sakima <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak


> Sigh ...
>
> What can I say??  I AGREE with both of you ... and yet
> I DISAGREE with both of you...
>
> Oh well
>
> Curtis
>
>
> --- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hakan,
>
> -snip-
>
> And not to be intentionally contrary, but I hesitate
> at great length to agree that "The only thing that
> counts at the end is financial success." I think the
> following expresses the fallacy of such an approach
> far better than my words might
>
> Only after the last tree has been cut down,
> Only after the last river has been poisoned,
> Only after the last fish has been caught,
> Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.
>
> Cree Indian prophecy.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Dear Todd,
>
> This kind of thinking is not productive and if
> applied, it would lead to unwanted side effects.
>
> snip-
>
> We should keep away from political games, if we with
> seriousness pursue sustainable energy alternatives. It
> is enough politics, bad or good, in this world.
>
> snip--
>
> The only thing that counts at the end is financial
> success. That does not mean a low price, it is
> possible to find a lot of customers for high quality
> also.
>
> Hakan
>
>
> =
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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Christopher Witmer]

There are a lot of things to disagree with in Margaret Mead's writings, 
but that quote sure isn't one of them. It really hits the nail on the 
head. When most people are just "going along for the ride" (through 
life), a small percentage of dedicated people with a vision can 
determine the course that the whole will take. In the context of 
environmental issues, I don't know how appropriate it is to turn to 
political revolutions for an analogy, but just about all the 
democratic/popular "revolutions" I can think of, from England's civil 
war of the 17th century (the one where Parliament decapitated Charles I) 
forward, were fomented by a tiny percentage of the populace. In 
England's case the Puritans constituted perhaps 3% of the population, 
but they wielded influence far beyond their numbers. (I think they 
constituted close to one fifth of the scientists, looking at membership 
in the Royal Society.) Whether a revolution ultimately succeeds depends 
largely on how well the base of support can be broadened to establish a 
sort of "critical mass" that sustains the new paradigm. In England's 
case the revolution quickly fizzled because the base of support did not 
broaden. In the case of environmental issues, if activists' forecasts 
concerning the future are correct, then over time the popular base of 
support can be expected to broaden.

A lot of people seem to have implicit faith that technological 
breakthroughs are going to solve our problems -- that the scientific 
cavalry will come thundering in on horses at the last minute to rescue 
the besieged settlers. I don't doubt there will be technological 
advances but anyone stupid enough to base his defensive strategy on 
last-minute cavalry rescues deserves to have the cavalry show up ten 
seconds too late.

If we are looking at things with a sufficiently long time frame, it 
becomes clear that the most economically sound approach and the most 
ecologically sound approach are one and the same. The dichotomy between 
economic advantage and ecological advantage is largely imaginary in the 
long term big picture of things. However, the dichotomy does loom large 
and becomes a real problem when the time frame shortens to "now" and the 
focus of concern narrows to "me." I have a Japanese friend in the 
logging business who more than a decade ago proposed selective logging 
with helicopters in Indonesia as an approach that could be sustained 
long term with minimal environmental impact, but the proposal was shot 
down by local Indonesian politicians who insisted on logging by the 
traditional destructive methods, because the latter approach would line 
the politicians' pockets with far more money than the former. The 
politicians' only concern was how many golden eggs they could squeeze 
from the goose during their term of office, and they were willing to 
kill the goose if they thought they could get even one more egg for 
themselves by doing so.

"A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children," but too 
many people are focused solely on what's convenient and fun for them 
right now. Not only do they not think about tomorrow, they don't even 
think about half an hour from now. Any successful activism will have to 
work on overcoming this narrow self-centeredness. I think it can be 
done, but only with long-term commitment. There is a lot of inertia to 
overcome until critical mass can be reached.

Christopher Witmer
Tokyo

Keith Addison wrote:

> Margaret Mead's often-quoted statement is always apt: "Never 
> underestimate the power of a small group of individuals to change the 
> world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has."



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Re: [biofuel] WVO products

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc.]

Well, he might, since its just oil of whatever  type, blend, and technical
spec at that stage, and then the additives of his own go in - he's the guy
that told me he started out getting it packaged in Red Deer.

 But in any case, I am not interested where he gets his base oil, the base
oils are available from any number of suppliers.

Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
http://www.biofuels.ca
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 





on 8/4/02 2:26 PM, Steve Spence at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> You'd have to ask Ira where he sources his raw material. I doubt he'd tell
> you ;-)
> 
> 
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> & Discussion Boards:
> http://www.green-trust.org
> Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Biofuel-JTF" 
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO products
> 
> 
>> RE: Greenoil  -
>> 
>> 
>> When that US company started out, they got their oil - Canola oil - from
> Red
>> Deer, Alberta. I am not sure where they source their base oils now.
>> 
>> Cargill also offers some technical oils based on Canola.
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> 
>> As for Neoteric's lines (and more information will be posted soon on this
> on
>> our web site):
>> 
>> We offer proven additives to make a full range of oils locally in your
>> region  (anywhere in the world), from  high proportions of local oils and
> a
>> small percentage of the needed additives.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Cold pressed rapeseed oil is most often the oil used. (Other oils are
>> possible to use, but customers must check this out with us first!)
>> 
>> In addition to the lubricants, there are additive packages to make a
> reduced
>> viscosity, stable sort of "bio diesel" without the need for
>> transesterification.  Manual mixing, as simple as a canoe paddle in a
> drum.
>> 
>> It can be blended in any proportion with diesel fuel.
>> 
>> NOTE: Not currently registered with US EPA, so not available in the USA
>> except for legitimate testing. This will change.
>> 
>> This can be used in IDI engines. For DI engines, we recommend that heating
>> also be done, so use a VEG-Therm.  It also increases horsepower and fuel
>> economy compared to diesel. Cold starts on this blend go very well. With
>> cold pressed rapeseed oil and the additive, cloud point is well below
>> freezing, so it can be used in winter, especially with SVO Canola.
>>   Emissions testing is still ongoing, but should be favorable since it is
>> basically providing a lighter viscosity SVO by chemical thinning, and the
>> mixture is also stable in storage for a reasonable period of time.
> Worldwide
>> patented and over 10 years of R&D. You must obtain enough at a time to
> make
>> shipping make any sense, please don't inquire looking for a 20 L pail of
> it!
>> Bulk shipments can start to make sense - perhaps 4 drums at a time and on
>> up.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Unlike some other companies that produce additive packages for these
>> "bio-lubricants", these additive packages are not derived, with only a
>> percent or two in a couple of the products, from petrochemical (fossil)
>> industry but rather even the additives themselves are derived from
> renewable
>> sources.
>> 
>> This is somewhat unique, and a nice additional benefit, and also helps in
>> many cases in terms of CAS numbers, MSDS's, and shipping as non-hazardous
>> goods, by air, etc.
>> 
>> Here is a partial list of the oils that can be produced - biodegradable.
>> 
>> Diesel substitute
>> Diesel fuel lubricity additive
>> Bar and Chain and Tree Harvester Oil
>> Railroad switch oils
>> Construction form release oils
>> Guide oils (sawmills)
>> Multi-purpose lubricants
>> Solvent, cleaning agents (parts cleaning, degreaser effect enhancing)
>> Penetrating oil
>> Two-cycle oil
>> Outboard motor oil
>> Rust solvent
>> Pneumatic tool oil
>> Asphalt release and tool cleaner
>> Water-bike (underwater chain)
>> Milking machine oils
>> Hydraulic oil
>> Tractor transmission oil
>> Vacuum pump oil
>> Multi-purpose lubes for roller and hydrodynamic bearings.
>> 
>> We only stock one or two of these, however, arrangements can be made to
> ship
>> to almost any location for blending with local oils or oils that already
>> exist in the region (from food suppliers, etc.).
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
>> Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
>> Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
>> 1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
>> Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
>> http://www.biofuels.ca
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> on 8/4/02 11:49 AM, Steve Spence at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>>> http://www.greenoil-online.com/ is one source of lubricating oils from
>>> vegetable oil.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- Original Mes

Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Curtis Sakima]

Nah, I didn't intend to.  I just wanted express the
fact that this "biofuel/enviromental" thing is so
broad ... and so MULTI-FACETED.  So many issues .. all
connected ... all ying-yanged into on another.

I was simply expressing how I get overwhelmed by it
all sometimes.  That's all!!

Curtis




--- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I suppose you could start by stating where it is and
with what that you agree or disagree.
 
Todd Swearingen


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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[MH]

"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> 
> > What looming water problems, any waterway &/or beach closing issues ?
> 
> I guess you mean this question seriously.  It seems like every day now
> I see a report on TV about the present drought which has been
> afflicting what I guess is now a majority of the Sates (though it
> depends I think on how one defines drought).

 You guessed right.  I've heard and read reports here in the US
 and was interested in your regional situation.  A recent PBS program
 described the concerns around Lake Michigan but we've been very lucky
 having rainfall. 

> The technology you cite is interesting, although my initial take is
> that it's not the be-all end-all appropriate for everywhere, but worth
> pursuing only for some communities, depending on the exact needs and
> size.  I am skeptical of the heavy metal treatment claims made for
> this technology.

 I thought you might have heard about Arcata, CA community sewage processing
 and how they handle the remaining toxic digester sludge and heavy metal 
sediment.
 It mentioned treating more than 2 million gallons of effluent a day
 at their 154-acre facility with a population of 16,651
 assuming use is community wide. 

 With a estimated US population of 285,000,000
 divided by 16,651 people x 154 acre treatment facility would
 equal 2,635,878 acres needed, IF the US populous where concentrated,
 using the this technology. 
 A acre is about 209 feet squared x 2,635,878 acres divide by 285 million 
 equals 404.623 square feet per person OR about 20 feet squared per capita. 
 This would be about 4,119 square miles OR 64 miles squared
 for US sewage treatment and biogas recovery with lots of assumptions
 such as not knowing industrial or commercial waste contributions. 

 Earthships, Eco Villages and Eco Community planers appear
 to incorporate this technology.  Theirs one, so considered,
 in a neighboring state located within the state capital
 county line thats developed for the upper classes. 
 Are you familiar with any REIT investments
 focusing on this strategy ? 


 Thanks Rob for the brief but very interesting historical look at 
 world sanitation problems --

 Sanitation
 Excrement Happens, Part 1
 http://www.bagelhole.org/article.php/Sanitation/69/

 Sanitation
 Excrement Happens, Part 2
 http://www.bagelhole.org/article.php/Sanitation/70/

 I was surprised a few years ago when a local building center
 and also a hardware store was selling pricey composting toilets. 
 When were the Environmental Protection Agency changes
 perhaps about this time frame ? --

 "The EPA decided that the expedient thing to do with sewage sludge was
 to plow it into the land.  Shortly after 1992, when the ban on ocean dumping 
went into effect,
 EPA renamed toxic sludge "beneficial biosolids,"
 and began aggressively campaigning to sell it to the American people as 
fertilizer."
 http://www.bagelhole.org/article.php/Sanitation/69/

 Then went on to read in part 2 --

 "However, EPA has overlooked two important differences
 between modern sewage sludge and traditional "night soil" (unadulterated human 
waste): 

 1) Most of the nitrogen in human waste is in the urine and is water-soluble,
 so it is not captured in the sludge.  Therefore,
 if sludge is going to substitute for commercial fertilizer,
 you have to use a lot of it to get enough nitrogen.  And
 2) when you add a lot of sludge to soil, you are also adding a lot of toxic 
metals
 and a rich (though very poorly understood) mixture of organic chemicals 
and,
 very likely, radioactive wastes as well."

 snip

 "In sum, plowing sewage sludge into soils is essentially
 guaranteed to harm many of those soils as time passes. [See REHW #561.]
 [As we know from the ancients who poisoned their soils with irrigation salts,
 a nation that poisons its farmland is a nation that doesn't have a long- term 
future.]"
 http://www.bagelhole.org/article.php/Sanitation/70/

 Also the political agenda mentioned within certainly makes lot of cent$. 

> > Arcataâs Green Machine Wetland Treats Wastewater, Shelters Birds
> > By Mark Worth
> > 1999
> > Special to ABCNEWS.com
> > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/arcatamarsh990702.html

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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[MH]

> > Hoagy wrote:
> > What looming water problems, any waterway &/or beach closing issues ?
> 
> Good grief Hoagy, where've you been?? Water is a vast, wordwide
> crisis. It's killing lots of people.
> 
> I'm going to sink your battleship.
> 
> Keith

 Battleship!  All I've got is a canoe. 
 Fire at will -- which you did very nicely,
 thank you for the send off.

 Now for other "dumb" questions --
 Whats the solution ? 
 Can we make more water ? 

 Maybe via fuel cells
 which supposedly reduces CO2 due to their
 increased energy efficiency and decentralized
 cogeneration or so I've begun to read at
 Rocky Mountain Institute with roughly 15-30%
 energy loss during H2 production.

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Re: [biofuel] Re: Hubbert Peak

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: "womplex_oo1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 16:08
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hubbert Peak


> You say gold was once trading at $35/oz and is now trading at
> $200/oz., which makes all kinds of new gold mines economically viable
> that weren't before?  First, your quote on the price of gold isn't
> correct, according to the 24-hr live-line gold is currently trading
> at $307.10/oz.
>
Let's not forget that back then, we were on a gold standard and the Govt.
told us what gold was worth, not the market.  As to the $200.00/oz.,  it was
not all that long ago, that it was at around $225 or so, because several of
the worlds Govts. decieded to decrease the amount that thoes countries held
in strategic reserve, and the world market could not deal with the influx of
gold on the market in the corse of a few months.

Greg H.

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak

[Appal Energy]

Just don't get burnt out over it. Inevitably, for those who
choose to look long term enough, both the Ying and the Yang
compliment each other, not contradict.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: Curtis Sakima <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hubbert Peak


> Nah, I didn't intend to.  I just wanted express the
> fact that this "biofuel/enviromental" thing is so
> broad ... and so MULTI-FACETED.  So many issues .. all
> connected ... all ying-yanged into on another.
>
> I was simply expressing how I get overwhelmed by it
> all sometimes.  That's all!!
>
> Curtis
>
>
>
>
> --- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I suppose you could start by stating where it is and
> with what that you agree or disagree.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
>
> =
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Re: [biofuel] WVO products

[Steve Spence]

Cool. I can live with this :-)


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO products


> Steve:
>
> It is not misleading to call a product that offers a premix, one tank pour
> and go, mix in any proportion product, derived from a higher percentage of
> natural and renewable sources than methyl ester, a form of bio-diesel. And
I
> hyphenated it for a reason, BTW.
>
> However, I have no interest in arguing the point and you are correct that
> differentiation is in order here.
>
> So here it is:
>
>
> Nature Diesel, or "NADI" will be fine in reference to this product. The
> final mixed product, that is. The additive ( mixed 20% to 80% SVO) is
> referred to as "NADI additive".
>
>
> Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
> Neoteric Biofuels Inc.
> Located in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada
> 1-250-768-3169 Fax: 1-250-768-3118
> Toll-Free (Canada/USA): 1-866-768-3169
> http://www.biofuels.ca
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> on 8/4/02 2:24 PM, Steve Spence at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > please do not use "biodiesel" (even "sort of") as a description for
> > non-transesterified vegetable oil. It's confusing at best, and
misleading at
> > worst.
> >
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> > & Discussion Boards:
> > http://www.green-trust.org
> > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Biofuel-JTF" 
> > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] WVO products
> >
> >
> >> RE: Greenoil  -
> >>
> >>
> >> When that US company started out, they got their oil - Canola oil -
from
> > Red
> >> Deer, Alberta. I am not sure where they source their base oils now.
> >>
> >> Cargill also offers some technical oils based on Canola.
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >>
> >>
> >> As for Neoteric's lines (and more information will be posted soon on
this
> > on
> >> our web site):
> >>
> >> We offer proven additives to make a full range of oils locally in your
> >> region  (anywhere in the world), from  high proportions of local oils
and
> > a
> >> small percentage of the needed additives.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  Cold pressed rapeseed oil is most often the oil used. (Other oils are
> >> possible to use, but customers must check this out with us first!)
> >>
> >> In addition to the lubricants, there are additive packages to make a
> > reduced
> >> viscosity, stable sort of "bio diesel" without the need for
> >> transesterification.  Manual mixing, as simple as a canoe paddle in a
> > drum.
> >>
> >> It can be blended in any proportion with diesel fuel.
> >>
> >> NOTE: Not currently registered with US EPA, so not available in the USA
> >> except for legitimate testing. This will change.
> >>
> >> This can be used in IDI engines. For DI engines, we recommend that
heating
> >> also be done, so use a VEG-Therm.  It also increases horsepower and
fuel
> >> economy compared to diesel. Cold starts on this blend go very well.
With
> >> cold pressed rapeseed oil and the additive, cloud point is well below
> >> freezing, so it can be used in winter, especially with SVO Canola.
> >>   Emissions testing is still ongoing, but should be favorable since it
is
> >> basically providing a lighter viscosity SVO by chemical thinning, and
the
> >> mixture is also stable in storage for a reasonable period of time.
> > Worldwide
> >> patented and over 10 years of R&D. You must obtain enough at a time to
> > make
> >> shipping make any sense, please don't inquire looking for a 20 L pail
of
> > it!
> >> Bulk shipments can start to make sense - perhaps 4 drums at a time and
on
> >> up.
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >> Unlike some other companies that produce additive packages for these
> >> "bio-lubricants", these additive packages are not derived, with only a
> >> percent or two in a couple of the products, from petrochemical (fossil)
> >> industry but rather even the additives themselves are derived from
> > renewable
> >> sources.
> >>
> >> This is somewhat unique, and a nice additional benefit, and also helps
in
> >> many cases in terms of CAS numbers, MSDS's, and shipping as
non-hazardous
> >> goods, by air, etc.
> >>
> >> Here is a partial list of the oils that can be produced -
biodegradable.
> >>
> >> Diesel substitute
> >> Diesel fuel lubricity additive
> >> Bar and Chain and Tree Harvester Oil
> >> Railroad switch oils
> >> Construction form release oils
> >> Guide oils (sawmills)
> >> Multi-purpose lubricants
> >> Solvent, cleaning agents (parts cleaning, degreaser effect enhancing)
> >> Penetrating oil
> >> Two-cycle oil
> >> Outboard motor oil
> >> Rust solvent
> >> Pneumati

Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[Appal Energy]

Make more water?

How about make more water available for the right purposes. We
could start with squashing the golf courses in deserts. Then move
on to mandatory grey water and cistern projects in all
municipalities nation(s)wide. Couple those with national victory
garden efforts. (You would probably see people flushing a lot
less "stuff" down the drain if they were putting the grey water
on their food supply.)

Put a damper on water subsidies for agricultural irrigation and
then start rotating out crops that are being grown where they
have no right to be due to massive irrigation projects.

And just to keep it all fun, start an international submarine
shower club.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: MH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT:
AnimalWaste


> > > Hoagy wrote:
> > > What looming water problems, any waterway &/or beach
closing issues ?
> >
> > Good grief Hoagy, where've you been?? Water is a vast,
wordwide
> > crisis. It's killing lots of people.
> >
> > I'm going to sink your battleship.
> >
> > Keith
>
> Battleship!  All I've got is a canoe.
> Fire at will -- which you did very nicely,
> thank you for the send off.
>
> Now for other "dumb" questions --
> Whats the solution ?
> Can we make more water ?
>
> Maybe via fuel cells
> which supposedly reduces CO2 due to their
> increased energy efficiency and decentralized
> cogeneration or so I've begun to read at
> Rocky Mountain Institute with roughly 15-30%
> energy loss during H2 production.
>
>   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> A acre is about 209 feet squared x 2,635,878 acres divide by 285 million 
> equals 404.623 square feet per person OR about 20 feet squared per capita. 

How do you get from 404 to 20?  How is "per person" different from
"per capita"?

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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[Steve Spence]

I'm reducing my water needs by collecting rainwater, and using composting
toilets. greywater recovery is used for irrigation.


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards:
http://www.green-trust.org
Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste


> Make more water?
>
> How about make more water available for the right purposes. We
> could start with squashing the golf courses in deserts. Then move
> on to mandatory grey water and cistern projects in all
> municipalities nation(s)wide. Couple those with national victory
> garden efforts. (You would probably see people flushing a lot
> less "stuff" down the drain if they were putting the grey water
> on their food supply.)
>
> Put a damper on water subsidies for agricultural irrigation and
> then start rotating out crops that are being grown where they
> have no right to be due to massive irrigation projects.
>
> And just to keep it all fun, start an international submarine
> shower club.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
> - Original Message -
> From: MH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT:
> AnimalWaste
>
>
> > > > Hoagy wrote:
> > > > What looming water problems, any waterway &/or beach
> closing issues ?
> > >
> > > Good grief Hoagy, where've you been?? Water is a vast,
> wordwide
> > > crisis. It's killing lots of people.
> > >
> > > I'm going to sink your battleship.
> > >
> > > Keith
> >
> > Battleship!  All I've got is a canoe.
> > Fire at will -- which you did very nicely,
> > thank you for the send off.
> >
> > Now for other "dumb" questions --
> > Whats the solution ?
> > Can we make more water ?
> >
> > Maybe via fuel cells
> > which supposedly reduces CO2 due to their
> > increased energy efficiency and decentralized
> > cogeneration or so I've begun to read at
> > Rocky Mountain Institute with roughly 15-30%
> > energy loss during H2 production.
> >
> >   Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
>
>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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>
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>
>
>


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[biofuel] Re: Hubbert Peak

[Keith Addison]

womplex_oo1 wrote:

>You say

No, I quoted someone else who said so.

>gold was once trading at $35/oz and is now trading at
>$200/oz., which makes all kinds of new gold mines economically viable
>that weren't before?  First, your quote on the price of gold isn't
>correct, according to the 24-hr live-line gold is currently trading
>at $307.10/oz.

Gold is a story that's older than 24 hours. The quote was made about 
18 months ago. I thought at the time the price was probably higher 
than that, though not as high as $300, but I didn't bother to check 
because it's not relevant to the point he was making, nor to the one 
I was making. Nor even to the one you're trying to make.

The story of the gold price is somewhat complex. Gold was maintained 
at $35/oz for 35 years (I think - it's nearly 30 years since I had 
any interest in gold), in the face of inflation and steadily rising 
costs. Towards the end of that period, the mining companies were 
going to extraordinary lengths to keep unprofitable mines operating, 
since it was only a matter of time until the price was released to 
market forces, and once you close a mine, it's either very difficult 
and extremely expensive, or impossible, to reopen it. I'm talking 
about the Reef mines, which are very deep, and very wet. Vindication 
came when the price was released, jumping to $245/oz overnight.

If you want to look at real market forces, not rigged ones like this 
(and oil), I saw a most interesting analysis showing that on average 
gold has always bought the same amount of basic goods - bread, 
housing, land, pigs, wives (!) - at any time and in any society over 
the last 5,000 years.

Now apply those values to oil. But take away all the politics, the 
military, the artificial price supports, the hidden subsidies - REAL 
market forces, eh?

Anyway, it's a minor point that the gold price rise made old mines 
more viable, that it promoted alternatives and better use is far more 
important, as is the point that the artificially low oil prices, 
especially in the US, have discouraged technical progress in 
alternatives, and in better use.

>http://www.kitco.com/reports/
>
>Second, half a century ago coffee was served for 2 cents for a cup,
>and now the price is around 85 cents.  This is a result of inflation,
>not depletion of the resource.

It's not the result of depletion of resource, but there's somewhat 
more to it than inflation. Coffee recently was, and I think still is, 
in massive surplus, to the extent that some producer countries were 
considering burning it as fuel - were actually doing so. This was a 
few months ago. Yet the price to the consumer didn't go down. The 
price to the producer did though.

Same with soy - there's more than two billion gallons of soy oil in 
surplus, the farmers are getting less (as with coffee), but it's no 
cheaper to buy, and soy biodiesel is more expensive to buy than 
dino-diesel. With both soy biodiesel and dino-diesel, real market 
forces seem to have rather little to do with it.

>If the price of oil goes up, it will either be because of increased
>demand, or a supply shortfall.  Depleted oil reserves will mean that
>the cost of extracting oil will increase, production will decrease,
>and storage/shipping lines will be working below capacity which will
>compound the price increase.  So I don't understand where the idea
>comes from that a rising price will suddenly make previously
>uneconomical reserves viable?  Sales will decrease substantially.
>Increased expense & lower revenue destroys profit.  In my
>understanding, whether a resource is economically recoverable or not
>depends on profit, not price.
>
>Opinion?

In my opinion you're taking a narrow and somewhat selective view of 
what I said, and of what others have said, and your view of how the 
markets work is a bit simplistic.

Do you think oil is an economically recoverable resource, at any 
price? Include all the externalities and project beyond the next 
quarter. THAT's what it depends on, not profit or price.

Keith


>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > womplex_oo1 wrote:
> >
> > >I've done several extrapolations of oil consumption using a
> > >spreadsheet, and the oil reserve information provided by BP World
>Oil
> > >Statistics website:
> > >
> > >http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/world_stat_rev/oil/reserves.asp
> > >
> > >A straight linear extrapolation of oil consumption indicates that
>all
> > >the world's oil will run out between the years 2032-2045.  By "run
> > >out" I mean every last drop of oil gone.
> > >
> > >Oil production does not support this linear extrapolation however.
> > >Production will reach a peak sometime before these terminal years,
> > >and decrease exponentially forever after, preventing anyone from
>ever
> > >extracting all the oil.  This Hubbert Peak will have to occur
> > >sometime before these dates, but the later it occurs the sharper
>the
> > >decline in oil production.
> > >
> > >Wh

Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[Christopher Witmer]

MH wrote:

>  Whats the solution ? 
>  Can we make more water ? 

The single most useful step at the present time would be to prevent 
water pollution in the first place. Removal of pollutants after their 
dispersion is highly impractical. If we stop adding ever greater 
quantities of pollutants to the water, most of the pollutants already 
there will eventually disperse or break down to the point where they are 
not a serious direct threat to life. In some locales, the absolute lack 
of water is a serious problem; in many others there is water but it will 
make you sick if you drink it. Cessation of new pollution and sufficient 
time (anywhere from a few years to decades) will usually mitigate the 
latter problem.

If there is an absolute lack of water in some region, the problem is far 
more complex. Through great effort it may be possible to alter the 
climate in a particular locale to reverse desertification; there seems 
to be some evidence that this is working in parts of the Middle East and 
China.

People everywhere need to learn more about proper stewardship of ground 
water. It is easy to screw up the ground water through improper drilling 
of wells, unintelligent farming and livestock raising, and improper 
disposal of human excreta. If ground water is all you've got and you 
screw it up, you're really screwed!

In some places there doesn't seem to be much of a solution but to reduce 
the population living there. That eventually happens but often times it 
ain't pretty.

Desalinization holds great potential but it is very energy intensive.

Many people could make better use of rainwater that falls on their own 
roofs.

Just a few ideas.

Christopher Witmer
Tokyo


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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[Keith Addison]

Hello Christopher

>MH wrote:
>
> >  Whats the solution ?
> >  Can we make more water ?
>
>The single most useful step at the present time would be to prevent
>water pollution in the first place. Removal of pollutants after their
>dispersion is highly impractical. If we stop adding ever greater
>quantities of pollutants to the water, most of the pollutants already
>there will eventually disperse or break down to the point where they are
>not a serious direct threat to life. In some locales, the absolute lack
>of water is a serious problem; in many others there is water but it will
>make you sick if you drink it. Cessation of new pollution and sufficient
>time (anywhere from a few years to decades) will usually mitigate the
>latter problem.

You're quite right, but pollution is only one aspect of a 
multi-faceted problem. Very important aspect, but so are they all.

>If there is an absolute lack of water in some region, the problem is far
>more complex. Through great effort it may be possible to alter the
>climate in a particular locale to reverse desertification; there seems
>to be some evidence that this is working in parts of the Middle East and
>China.
>
>People everywhere need to learn more about proper stewardship of ground
>water. It is easy to screw up the ground water through improper drilling
>of wells, unintelligent farming and livestock raising, and improper
>disposal of human excreta. If ground water is all you've got and you
>screw it up, you're really screwed!

"... the relentless search for secure water supplies to feed the 
insatiable appetites of the water-bottling corporations [22.3 billion 
U.S. gallons in 2000] is having damaging effects. In rural 
communities throughout much of the world, the industry has been 
buying up farmland to access wells and then moving on when the wells 
are depleted. In Uruguay and other parts of Latin America, 
foreign-based water corporations have been buying up vast wilderness 
tracts and even whole water systems to hold for future development. 
In some cases, these companies end up draining the water system of 
the entire area, not just the water on their land tracts."
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5973
Debunking The Myths Of Bottled Water - An Excerpt From "Blue Gold" by 
Maude Barlow

Great, eh?

>In some places there doesn't seem to be much of a solution but to reduce
>the population living there. That eventually happens but often times it
>ain't pretty.
>
>Desalinization holds great potential but it is very energy intensive.
>
>Many people could make better use of rainwater that falls on their own
>roofs.

It's a lot like oil. Nobody talks (yet!) about a Hubbert's Peak for 
water, though it strikes me it's a lot more relevant. Less use, 
better use, and, what you can't do with oil, conservation. Well, with 
oil that means not using it. Not so with water. I was talking to a 
Japanese farmer, not about water, but it came up - I had 
water-conservative SRI rice-growing in mind. He said: "But there's no 
water shortage in Japan."

That's right. There's no overall water shortage in many places where 
there's a water crisis. What they have instead is an increasingly 
vicious cycle of droughts and floods.

This was written a long time ago (60 years), but it's still largely true:

"Japan provides perhaps the best example of the control of soil 
erosion in a country with torrential rains, highly erodible soils, 
and a topography which renders the retention of the soil on steep 
slopes very difficult. Here erosion has been effectively held in 
check, by methods adopted regardless of cost, for the reason that the 
alternative to their execution would be national disaster. The great 
danger from soil erosion in Japan is the deposition of soil debris 
from the steep mountain slopes on the rice-fields below. The texture 
of the rice soils must be maintained so that the fields will hold 
water and allow of the minimum of through drainage. If such areas 
became covered with a deep layer of permeable soil, brought down by 
erosion from the hillsides, they would no longer hold water, and rice 
cultivation -- the mainstay of Japan's food-supply -- would be out of 
the question. For this reason the country has spent as much as ten 
times the capital value of eroding land on soil conservation work, 
mainly as an insurance for saving the valuable rice lands below. Thus 
in 1925 the Tokyo Forestry Board spent 453 yen (£45) per acre in 
anti-erosion measures on a forest area, valued at 40 yen per acre, in 
order to save rice-fields lower down valued at 240 to 300 yen per 
acre.

"The dangers from erosion have been recognized in Japan for centuries 
and an exemplary technique has been developed for preventing them. It 
is now a definite part of national policy to maintain the upper 
regions of each catchment area under forest, as the most economical 
and effective method of controlling flood waters and insuring the 
production of rice in the valleys. For many years 

[biofuel] USDA Report Supports NCGA Claims that Ethanol is Efficient to Produce

[Keith Addison]

Not that David Pimental will take any notice...

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020802/cgf036_1.html

Friday August 2, 4:10 pm Eastern Time
Press Release
SOURCE: National Corn Growers Association
USDA Report Supports NCGA Claims that Ethanol is Efficient to Produce

WASHINGTON, Aug. 2 /PRNewswire/ -- A report released yesterday by the 
USDA confirms what the National Corn Growers Association (NCGA) has 
been saying all along -- that ethanol is efficient to produce and 
should play a positive role in reducing U.S. dependence on imported 
oil.

The report concludes that the net energy value of corn ethanol has 
become positive in recent years due to technological advances in 
ethanol conversion and increased efficiency in farm production.

"Critics of ethanol production should take note of the fact that USDA 
itself has found that ethanol produces much more energy than it 
consumes when compared to other products such as petroleum," said 
NCGA President Tim Hume. "Moreover, the USDA report supports NCGA's 
claims that ethanol production uses abundant domestic supplies of 
energy to convert corn into a premium liquid fuel that can displace 
petroleum imports."

The report, "The Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol: An Update," 
published by USDA's Office of the Chief Economist, concludes that 
ethanol production is energy efficient because it yields 34 percent 
more energy than issued in growing and harvesting the corn and 
distilling it into ethanol."

"Ethanol has come under considerable attack in recent months, and 
many of the critics have quoted inaccurate, outdated data from a 
Cornell University researcher who claimed ethanol production consumes 
more energy than it produces," said Hume, a grower from Walsh, Colo.

"In its report, the USDA says studies using older data tend to 
overestimate energy use because the efficiency of growing corn and 
converting it to ethanol has improved significantly over the past 20 
years."

The report notes that today's higher corn yields, lower energy use 
per unit of output in the fertilizer industry and advances in fuel 
conversion technologies have greatly enhanced the economic and 
technical feasibility of producing ethanol.

"The USDA report also illustrates the need for a renewable fuel 
standard (RFS)," Hume concluded. "Agriculture consumes and produces 
energy; and energy legislation is critically important to American 
agriculture. We need stable energy markets and we need enhanced 
economic opportunities in rural America, and the RFS contained in the 
Senate bill currently in conference provides both of those. Again, we 
urge passage by the Congress."

For the complete report, click on the link on the NCGA web site, www.ncga.com .

The National Corn Growers Association mission is to create and 
increase opportunities for corn growers in a changing world and to 
enhance corn's profitability and usage. NCGA represents more than 
32,000 members, 25 affiliated state corn grower organizations and 
hundreds of thousands of growers who contribute to state checkoff 
programs.

SOURCE: National Corn Growers Association

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[biofuel] U.S. Versus The World: In Europe, biodiesel's king. In Brazil, ethanol rules.

[Keith Addison]

http://soybeandigest.com/ar/soybean_us_versus_world/index.htm

U.S. Versus The World: In Europe, biodiesel's king. In Brazil, ethanol rules.

Soybean Digest staff

Soybean Digest, Aug 1, 2002

Biodiesel is old news to German farmers - really old. Germany, as 
well as a big portion of the European Union (EU), has been pumping 
biodiesel for a long while.

"Clearly, they are six to 10 years ahead of us on production and 
use," says Krysta Harden, American Soybean Association's Washington 
representative. "But, we may be catching up soon."

Unlike the U.S., 35-40% of Europeans drive diesel cars. And many of 
those are fueled by B100 or a biodiesel blend.

In 1991, Germany - by far the largest user - burned 200 million 
gallons of biodiesel. Last year, they pumped 500 million gallons. 
Estimates are that they'll hit 750 million gallons this year.

"Germany uses B100 to qualify for tax breaks," explains Mike 
Livergood, Archer Daniels Midland's specialist on fuels and 
industrial uses for oils. "The rest of the EU countries are using 
2-5% blends."

Livergood says that each EU country has a different system with 
different production credits and regulations that affect biodiesel. 
"But, the EU Commission is working on a way to standardize their 
rules," he says.

"They're (EU) looking at tax bills that mirror what we're trying to 
do here in the U.S. with the renewable fuels standard," adds Bob 
Metz, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board.

Most of the EU's oil used in producing biodiesel is processed from 
rapeseed, produced on about 1.5 million hectares (3.7 million acres). 
Some soybean oil is blended in, too, says Livergood.

In a smaller way, Malaysia and Indonesia are also players in the 
biodiesel market by using palm oil in their production.

The other biofuel, ethanol, is not a big seller in the EU. "They just 
don't have the feedstocks (corn) to produce it," Livergood reports.

On the flip side, Brazil uses some biodiesel, but ethanol rules the 
renewable fuels roost. "Brazil is the only country that's producing a 
major amount of ethanol and the only real competitor for the U.S.," 
says Mike Bryan, BBI International. "At times, they even import 
ethanol from the U.S."

In Brazil, ethanol is produced primarily from sugar cane, not corn.

According to the Renewable Fuels Association, about 40% of the cars 
in Brazil operate on 100% ethanol. The remaining cars run on a blend 
of 22% ethanol (78% gasoline). Brazil consumes nearly 4 billion 
gallons of fuel ethanol per year.

The U.S., by comparison, uses ethanol in only 12% of its fuel, mostly 
at a blend of 10% ethanol (90% gasoline). That translates to 1.7 
billion gallons a year.

Bryan claims that Asia is now beginning to show more interest in 
ethanol production, too. China, for example, has over 900 plants but 
they produce "tiny" amounts of ethanol and it's used mostly in the 
beverage and industrial market.

"I can't envision any major competition from another country for U.S. 
ethanol," says Bryan. "In the short term, there may even be good 
potential for the U.S. to export ethanol."



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[biofuel] Buying Your Beans Back: Farmers say it pays to buy biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

It'd pay even better if they made it themselves.


http://soybeandigest.com/ar/soybean_buying_beans_back/index.htm

Buying Your Beans Back: Farmers say it pays to buy biodiesel

Soybean Digest staff

Soybean Digest, Aug 1, 2002

If you farm but don't use biodiesel, you need to ask yourself why. 
Other farmers certainly are. "Some farmers don't want to pay the 
extra 2-3¢/gallon for biodiesel. Those are the same guys sitting 
around and complaining about the price of soybeans," says Newton, IA, 
farmer Bill Talsma.

"It's imperative we support our own product. You don't hear cattle 
producers complaining about paying the high price for beef and 
purchasing chicken instead," he says. "There shouldn't be a single 
farmer in the United States that's not using biodiesel."

More and more farmers are using the fuel, too. "The thing that got me 
started with biodiesel was a meeting with Cargill where the Iowa 
Soybean Promotion Board gave a presentation about the benefits," says 
Pella, IA, farmer Ken Finaardt. "I figured why not help ourselves?"

Five-thousand gallons later, Finaardt is pleased with the results. 
"We've been using it all spring and have had no problems. No 
difference on power," he says. "We use it in all our equipment except 
our trucks. As soon as we can buy it on the road, we'll use it in the 
trucks, too. Two cents a gallon is kind of a cheap price to pay to 
help ourselves."

Finaardt's fuel distributor hadn't carried biodiesel until the Iowa 
farmer insisted on it. Now, 75% of distributor's dealers sell the 
product. "Quite a few more distributors in the area jumped on the 
bandwagon, too," he says.

Although he normally uses a 10% blend, Finaardt is determined to up 
that percentage until the exhaust "smells like French fries. I went 
on a three-day tractor drive through Iowa with other farmers and used 
a 20% blend on the trip. But I couldn't smell any difference," he 
says. "I'm going to run 20% in tractor pulls this year and see if I 
can smell a difference then."

Iowa's Talsma brought biodiesel home for the first time last summer. 
So did some of his neighbors. "I haven't heard one complaint about it 
yet," he says. "It's just like there's no change. With B2 you can't 
tell any performance issues at all."

When suppliers dropped biodiesel from their inventory, Mitchellville, 
IA, farmer Edward Craig decided to "splash blend" his own. "We bought 
a 200 gallon shuttle from a supplier in Des Moines. When it's empty, 
the company will refill it from a tanker," he says. "We're paying 
$1.75/gallon for soybean oil and figure it increases costs about 
10¢/gallon when we run a 5% blend." Craig blends the biodiesel with 
diesel in a 100 gallon fuel tank Craig tested different blends of 
biodiesel, from .25% to 100% before deciding on the 5% blend. "We're 
running the 5% for lubricity, which should extend our injector pump 
life," he says. "It definitely cleans up the smoke on older tractors 
and we've noticed a little difference in smell."

It's tough to put a number on what farmers are using in total. But 
the trend is clear. "Within the last two years, farmers have started 
to use biodiesel in earnest," says Jenna Higgins of the National 
Biodiesel Board (NBB), Jefferson City, MO. "It has really caught on 
and is becoming a significant part of the market."

That's a trend that needs to continue. "It's really short-sighted for 
farmers not to buy it and help the industry gain a foothold," she 
says. "If demand is there, suppliers will carry it. Farmers need to 
ask their distributors to carry biodiesel and help build the 
infrastructure."

That's particularly true in Minnesota, says Higgins, where the state 
legislature passed laws this year mandating the use of biodiesel. 
"Undoubtedly there will be efforts made to repeal that legislation," 
she says. "So, it's critical to get a network setup that's created 
from farmer demand for the product."

Regardless of where you farm, biodiesel is available. Although it's 
more plentiful in some states than it is in others. To find out where 
you can buy biodiesel, go to http://www.biodiesel.org and click on 
the biodiesel distributors list, or call the NBB at 800-841-5849.

Talsma had to persuade his dealer that biodiesel was worth stocking. 
"I told him that I was going to start using biodiesel, and if he 
didn't have it I'd buy it somewhere else," he says. "We started using 
it right before last fall's harvest."

Fuel distributors find plenty of advantages when they do supply 
biodiesel blends, according to Higgins. "It helps them differentiate 
themselves from other suppliers," she says. "That usually brings in 
new customers and builds their profits."

Because biodiesel is still new, you have to make sure you know, and 
your supplier knows, what you're really getting. Soy biodiesel is 
biodiesel derived from 100% virgin soybean oil in a 2% minimum blend 
that meets ASTM D-6751 fuel standard. Some suppliers offer higher 
blends such as B5 and B10

Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[MH]

> > A acre is about 209 feet squared x 2,635,878 acres divide by 285 million
> > equals 404.623 square feet per person OR about 20 feet squared per capita.

> How do you get from 404 to 20?  How is "per person" different from
> "per capita"?

 20 feet squared = 20' x 20' = 400 sq.ft.
 not quite 404 square feet. 
 I used the terms interchangeably
 meaning the same thing or
 for each person [Latin: by heads].

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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[Christopher Witmer]

Great? Aargh!

Here's my proposal for a two-birds-with-one-stone "bottled water" solution:

Terrier Water!

"Freshly effervesced from the depths of the dog"

We'll put a big red fire hydrant right in front of the water-bottling 
company, everybody will be happy.

Christopher Witmer
Tokyo
(Potable water courtesy of the last typhoon and Katadyn drip filters)

Keith Addison wrote:

> "... the relentless search for secure water supplies to feed the 
> insatiable appetites of the water-bottling corporations [22.3 billion 
> U.S. gallons in 2000] is having damaging effects. In rural 
> communities throughout much of the world, the industry has been 
> buying up farmland to access wells and then moving on when the wells 
> are depleted. In Uruguay and other parts of Latin America, 
> foreign-based water corporations have been buying up vast wilderness 
> tracts and even whole water systems to hold for future development. 
> In some cases, these companies end up draining the water system of 
> the entire area, not just the water on their land tracts."
> http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5973
> Debunking The Myths Of Bottled Water - An Excerpt From "Blue Gold" by 
> Maude Barlow
> 
> Great, eh?



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Re: [biofuel] Sewage & Waste Water - was: Somewhat OT: AnimalWaste

[MH]

> Many people could make better use of rainwater that falls on their own roofs.

> I'm reducing my water needs by collecting rainwater, and using composting
> toilets. greywater recovery is used for irrigation.

 I hope you can excuse my ignorance but what do you do with rain water
 and what type of roofing material is being used ? 

 Does anyone use a soakier hose in their gardens ?  

> Then move on to mandatory grey water and cistern projects in all
> municipalities nation(s)wide. Couple those with national victory
> garden efforts. (You would probably see people flushing a lot
> less "stuff" down the drain if they were putting the grey water
> on their food supply.)

 Speaking of victory gardens is anyone familiar with a book
 written in the early 1970s about WWII conservation programs
 from the authors personal experiences ?  

 Thanks for the edification!!!

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[biofuels-biz] Purinox Experience

[Ray Holan]

on 8/2/02 4:36 AM, Mike Johnston at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi,
> I was only back for a few hours tonight but it was a very productive
> few hours. You see John Grill from the h2view list sent out some remarks
> on Biodiesel and it just so happens I had been fooling with the idea of
> producing a small scale biodiesel production unit a week ago. I went so
> far as to research it a bit and found that you can even produce your own
> vegetable oil with an oil press such as this one:
> http://www.oilpress.com/type55.htm
> But that is beside the point. Anyway, Jerry Decker on Keelynet posted
> a piece on the gunnerman patent tonight. This involved mixing diesel
> with water and a surfactant to produce a fuel for diesel engines.
> This combination of posts triggered my memory and I remembered that I
> was out to a refinery in Ohio last year where the company (Lubrizol) was
> manufacturing a product called PuriNOx, a mixture of diesel, water and a
> surfactant. They were running the resulting fuel/mixture as a fuel in
> busses in Cleveland with good results. A production technician that I
> talked to told me that the mix was 30% diesel, 70% water and the
> surfactant.
> http://www.lubrizol.com/PuriNOx/fueltechnology.htm

On the flip side, the local Metroparks system here in Cleveland, Ohio tested
this product and abandoned it.  I'm not sure of the why, but I'm sure they
used it, had problems and stopped using it.


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[biofuels-biz] USDA Report Supports NCGA Claims that Ethanol is Efficient to Produce

[Keith Addison]

Not that David Pimental will take any notice...

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020802/cgf036_1.html

Friday August 2, 4:10 pm Eastern Time
Press Release
SOURCE: National Corn Growers Association
USDA Report Supports NCGA Claims that Ethanol is Efficient to Produce

WASHINGTON, Aug. 2 /PRNewswire/ -- A report released yesterday by the 
USDA confirms what the National Corn Growers Association (NCGA) has 
been saying all along -- that ethanol is efficient to produce and 
should play a positive role in reducing U.S. dependence on imported 
oil.

The report concludes that the net energy value of corn ethanol has 
become positive in recent years due to technological advances in 
ethanol conversion and increased efficiency in farm production.

"Critics of ethanol production should take note of the fact that USDA 
itself has found that ethanol produces much more energy than it 
consumes when compared to other products such as petroleum," said 
NCGA President Tim Hume. "Moreover, the USDA report supports NCGA's 
claims that ethanol production uses abundant domestic supplies of 
energy to convert corn into a premium liquid fuel that can displace 
petroleum imports."

The report, "The Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol: An Update," 
published by USDA's Office of the Chief Economist, concludes that 
ethanol production is energy efficient because it yields 34 percent 
more energy than issued in growing and harvesting the corn and 
distilling it into ethanol."

"Ethanol has come under considerable attack in recent months, and 
many of the critics have quoted inaccurate, outdated data from a 
Cornell University researcher who claimed ethanol production consumes 
more energy than it produces," said Hume, a grower from Walsh, Colo.

"In its report, the USDA says studies using older data tend to 
overestimate energy use because the efficiency of growing corn and 
converting it to ethanol has improved significantly over the past 20 
years."

The report notes that today's higher corn yields, lower energy use 
per unit of output in the fertilizer industry and advances in fuel 
conversion technologies have greatly enhanced the economic and 
technical feasibility of producing ethanol.

"The USDA report also illustrates the need for a renewable fuel 
standard (RFS)," Hume concluded. "Agriculture consumes and produces 
energy; and energy legislation is critically important to American 
agriculture. We need stable energy markets and we need enhanced 
economic opportunities in rural America, and the RFS contained in the 
Senate bill currently in conference provides both of those. Again, we 
urge passage by the Congress."

For the complete report, click on the link on the NCGA web site, www.ncga.com .

The National Corn Growers Association mission is to create and 
increase opportunities for corn growers in a changing world and to 
enhance corn's profitability and usage. NCGA represents more than 
32,000 members, 25 affiliated state corn grower organizations and 
hundreds of thousands of growers who contribute to state checkoff 
programs.

SOURCE: National Corn Growers Association

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[biofuels-biz] U.S. Versus The World: In Europe, biodiesel's king. In Brazil, ethanol rules.

[Keith Addison]

http://soybeandigest.com/ar/soybean_us_versus_world/index.htm

U.S. Versus The World: In Europe, biodiesel's king. In Brazil, ethanol rules.

Soybean Digest staff

Soybean Digest, Aug 1, 2002

Biodiesel is old news to German farmers - really old. Germany, as 
well as a big portion of the European Union (EU), has been pumping 
biodiesel for a long while.

"Clearly, they are six to 10 years ahead of us on production and 
use," says Krysta Harden, American Soybean Association's Washington 
representative. "But, we may be catching up soon."

Unlike the U.S., 35-40% of Europeans drive diesel cars. And many of 
those are fueled by B100 or a biodiesel blend.

In 1991, Germany - by far the largest user - burned 200 million 
gallons of biodiesel. Last year, they pumped 500 million gallons. 
Estimates are that they'll hit 750 million gallons this year.

"Germany uses B100 to qualify for tax breaks," explains Mike 
Livergood, Archer Daniels Midland's specialist on fuels and 
industrial uses for oils. "The rest of the EU countries are using 
2-5% blends."

Livergood says that each EU country has a different system with 
different production credits and regulations that affect biodiesel. 
"But, the EU Commission is working on a way to standardize their 
rules," he says.

"They're (EU) looking at tax bills that mirror what we're trying to 
do here in the U.S. with the renewable fuels standard," adds Bob 
Metz, chairman of the National Biodiesel Board.

Most of the EU's oil used in producing biodiesel is processed from 
rapeseed, produced on about 1.5 million hectares (3.7 million acres). 
Some soybean oil is blended in, too, says Livergood.

In a smaller way, Malaysia and Indonesia are also players in the 
biodiesel market by using palm oil in their production.

The other biofuel, ethanol, is not a big seller in the EU. "They just 
don't have the feedstocks (corn) to produce it," Livergood reports.

On the flip side, Brazil uses some biodiesel, but ethanol rules the 
renewable fuels roost. "Brazil is the only country that's producing a 
major amount of ethanol and the only real competitor for the U.S.," 
says Mike Bryan, BBI International. "At times, they even import 
ethanol from the U.S."

In Brazil, ethanol is produced primarily from sugar cane, not corn.

According to the Renewable Fuels Association, about 40% of the cars 
in Brazil operate on 100% ethanol. The remaining cars run on a blend 
of 22% ethanol (78% gasoline). Brazil consumes nearly 4 billion 
gallons of fuel ethanol per year.

The U.S., by comparison, uses ethanol in only 12% of its fuel, mostly 
at a blend of 10% ethanol (90% gasoline). That translates to 1.7 
billion gallons a year.

Bryan claims that Asia is now beginning to show more interest in 
ethanol production, too. China, for example, has over 900 plants but 
they produce "tiny" amounts of ethanol and it's used mostly in the 
beverage and industrial market.

"I can't envision any major competition from another country for U.S. 
ethanol," says Bryan. "In the short term, there may even be good 
potential for the U.S. to export ethanol."



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[biofuels-biz] Buying Your Beans Back: Farmers say it pays to buy biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

It'd pay even better if they made it themselves.


http://soybeandigest.com/ar/soybean_buying_beans_back/index.htm

Buying Your Beans Back: Farmers say it pays to buy biodiesel

Soybean Digest staff

Soybean Digest, Aug 1, 2002

If you farm but don't use biodiesel, you need to ask yourself why. 
Other farmers certainly are. "Some farmers don't want to pay the 
extra 2-3¢/gallon for biodiesel. Those are the same guys sitting 
around and complaining about the price of soybeans," says Newton, IA, 
farmer Bill Talsma.

"It's imperative we support our own product. You don't hear cattle 
producers complaining about paying the high price for beef and 
purchasing chicken instead," he says. "There shouldn't be a single 
farmer in the United States that's not using biodiesel."

More and more farmers are using the fuel, too. "The thing that got me 
started with biodiesel was a meeting with Cargill where the Iowa 
Soybean Promotion Board gave a presentation about the benefits," says 
Pella, IA, farmer Ken Finaardt. "I figured why not help ourselves?"

Five-thousand gallons later, Finaardt is pleased with the results. 
"We've been using it all spring and have had no problems. No 
difference on power," he says. "We use it in all our equipment except 
our trucks. As soon as we can buy it on the road, we'll use it in the 
trucks, too. Two cents a gallon is kind of a cheap price to pay to 
help ourselves."

Finaardt's fuel distributor hadn't carried biodiesel until the Iowa 
farmer insisted on it. Now, 75% of distributor's dealers sell the 
product. "Quite a few more distributors in the area jumped on the 
bandwagon, too," he says.

Although he normally uses a 10% blend, Finaardt is determined to up 
that percentage until the exhaust "smells like French fries. I went 
on a three-day tractor drive through Iowa with other farmers and used 
a 20% blend on the trip. But I couldn't smell any difference," he 
says. "I'm going to run 20% in tractor pulls this year and see if I 
can smell a difference then."

Iowa's Talsma brought biodiesel home for the first time last summer. 
So did some of his neighbors. "I haven't heard one complaint about it 
yet," he says. "It's just like there's no change. With B2 you can't 
tell any performance issues at all."

When suppliers dropped biodiesel from their inventory, Mitchellville, 
IA, farmer Edward Craig decided to "splash blend" his own. "We bought 
a 200 gallon shuttle from a supplier in Des Moines. When it's empty, 
the company will refill it from a tanker," he says. "We're paying 
$1.75/gallon for soybean oil and figure it increases costs about 
10¢/gallon when we run a 5% blend." Craig blends the biodiesel with 
diesel in a 100 gallon fuel tank Craig tested different blends of 
biodiesel, from .25% to 100% before deciding on the 5% blend. "We're 
running the 5% for lubricity, which should extend our injector pump 
life," he says. "It definitely cleans up the smoke on older tractors 
and we've noticed a little difference in smell."

It's tough to put a number on what farmers are using in total. But 
the trend is clear. "Within the last two years, farmers have started 
to use biodiesel in earnest," says Jenna Higgins of the National 
Biodiesel Board (NBB), Jefferson City, MO. "It has really caught on 
and is becoming a significant part of the market."

That's a trend that needs to continue. "It's really short-sighted for 
farmers not to buy it and help the industry gain a foothold," she 
says. "If demand is there, suppliers will carry it. Farmers need to 
ask their distributors to carry biodiesel and help build the 
infrastructure."

That's particularly true in Minnesota, says Higgins, where the state 
legislature passed laws this year mandating the use of biodiesel. 
"Undoubtedly there will be efforts made to repeal that legislation," 
she says. "So, it's critical to get a network setup that's created 
from farmer demand for the product."

Regardless of where you farm, biodiesel is available. Although it's 
more plentiful in some states than it is in others. To find out where 
you can buy biodiesel, go to http://www.biodiesel.org and click on 
the biodiesel distributors list, or call the NBB at 800-841-5849.

Talsma had to persuade his dealer that biodiesel was worth stocking. 
"I told him that I was going to start using biodiesel, and if he 
didn't have it I'd buy it somewhere else," he says. "We started using 
it right before last fall's harvest."

Fuel distributors find plenty of advantages when they do supply 
biodiesel blends, according to Higgins. "It helps them differentiate 
themselves from other suppliers," she says. "That usually brings in 
new customers and builds their profits."

Because biodiesel is still new, you have to make sure you know, and 
your supplier knows, what you're really getting. Soy biodiesel is 
biodiesel derived from 100% virgin soybean oil in a 2% minimum blend 
that meets ASTM D-6751 fuel standard. Some suppliers offer higher 
blends such as B5 and B10