[biofuels-biz] Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel
Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel By REUTERS HICAGO, Feb. 21 (Reuters) - Smithfield Foods Inc., the pork producer, said today that it would build a $20 million site in Utah that would use waste from 500,000 hogs to make biodiesel, a renewable fuel for vehicles. Biodiesel can be made from any fat including vegetable oil and used cooking oil. About 15 million gallons were used in the United States last year. Smithfield said it would be the major partner in BEST BioFuel, a partnership that will build the plant at Smithfield-owned swine production sites near Milford, Utah. Livestock waste can be a source of clean, renewable vehicle fuel, said Robert F. Urell, a Smithfield senior vice president. Construction is scheduled to start in April on the new site, pending final approval of a conditional use permit and a permit from the Utah Department of Environmental Quality. Smithfield's Utah swine operation produces about one million market hogs a year, and the biodiesel project will use the waste from about half of those hogs, the company said. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Bush's H-Car Is Just Hot Air
From: Robert Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Easterbrook: Bush's H-Car Is Just Hot Air Date: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:30 PM http://www.tnr.com http://www.thenewrepublic.com copyrighted by The New Republic, article is published in issue of 24 Feb 03 WHY BUSH'S H-CAR IS JUST HOT AIR. Car Talk by Gregg Easterbrook Printer friendly Post date 02.18.03 | Issue date 02.24.03E-mail this article A single chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen generates energy, which can be used to power a car producing only water, not exhaust fumes. With a new national commitment, our scientists and engineers will overcome obstacles to taking these cars from laboratory to showroom so that the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen and pollution-free. President Bush said these words during his State of the Union address, introducing the FreedomFUEL proposal--which is really how the White House spells it. The president wants to spend $1.2 billion over the next five years to research the production of hydrogen as a replacement for gasoline in automobiles. Someday men and women will probably drive cars running on fuel-cell motors that have no pistons, consume hydrogen, and emit no pollutants, including no greenhouse gases. Between the zero-pollutants advantages of hydrogen and the fact that its supply is in principle inexhaustible, the world's petroleum-based economy will probably eventually yield to a hydrogen-based economy--to everyone's benefit. Republicans relentlessly mocked Al Gore for saying the internal combustion engine should be replaced by something better, and now George W. Bush is saying exactly the same thing. The attraction of hydrogen is great, since hydrogen-based transportation would both be environmentally benign and reduce the need for the United States to import petroleum. But Bush's proposal joins a new convention of rhapsodizing about hydrogen-powered transportation--Jeremy Rifkin numbers among current hydrogen zealots--while skipping over the small matter of where we get the hydrogen. Worse, the White House plan offers a long-term distraction from a short-term need: While the administration dreams big about our hydrogen-powered future, it does little to improve fuel-economy standards today. There are many impediments to a future in which fuel-cell automobiles dominate America's roadways. What form--gaseous, liquid, or mixed with metallic dust to prevent explosion should there be an accident--would the hydrogen we pump into our cars take? How would the hydrogen be moved in commercial quantities to those filling stations? Could average motorists pump hydrogen themselves, considering it is now handled only by specialists? But these are engineering questions and presumably can be answered. Unfortunately, a cost-effective answer to the question of how to obtain hydrogen may prove more elusive than answers to questions about how to handle it. At first glance, this issue would seem simple. After all, our world contains gargantuan amounts of hydrogen--two-thirds of the oceans, for instance, are made up of this element. But the pure form of hydrogen needed to power fuel-cell cars does not occur naturally on Earth, where hydrogen is chemically bound to other elements, such as oxygen in the case of the oceans. And, while the stars contain an almost inexpressible amount of hydrogen in its pure form, stellar material will not be on sale at your local filling station anytime soon, or ever. Because pure hydrogen does not occur naturally on Earth, any pure hydrogen for use as fuel must be manufactured. Today, pure hydrogen is most often made using natural gas as a feedstock, but that means fossil fuels are still being consumed: Basically, the process turns a fossil fuel, methane, into something that seems not to be a fossil fuel, hydrogen. Pure hydrogen can also be manufactured using petroleum or coal, which of course are the very fossil fuels whose grip we wish to loosen. And, while pure hydrogen has been manufactured from agricultural products--plants contain hydrogen bound as carbohydrates--at the research level, it remains to be seen whether this could work commercially. Enviros rhapsodize about making hydrogen from seawater. But there's a catch: Making hydrogen from water requires loads of electricity, far more electricity than the energy value of the hydrogen that is obtained, and something--be it a coal-fired power plant or an atomic reactor--must provide the electricity. Indeed, the big misconception about hydrogen is that it is a source of energy. Pure hydrogen is not an energy source, except to stars. As it will be used in cars or to power homes and offices, hydrogen--like a battery--is an energy medium, a way to store power that has been obtained in some other way. Hydrogen makes an attractive energy medium because its fuel-cycle calculations--the sum of all steps of manufacture and use--show reductions in greenhouse gases compared with any automotive fuel
Re: [biofuels-biz] Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel
FYI, from Len Sigma Energy Engineering, Inc. Renewable Energy, Process Engineering Serving Agriculture, Industry Commerce through Symbiotic Recycling tm E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here is a little more info. on the Smithfield story extracted from Waste News, some of the how-to: Va. pork producer to develop $20 million swine waste-biodiesel system SMITHFIELD, VA. (Feb. 21) -- Smithfield Foods Inc. plans to spend $20 million developing a system to convert swine waste into biodiesel fuel. Smithfield Foods, a processor of fresh pork and other meats, will be the major partner in Best Biofuel LLC, a partnership that plans to construct the project at Smithfield Foods« Circle Four Farms in southwestern Utah. The partnership will begin construction in April, and the facility could be producing fuels by October, according to Smithfield Foods. A collection system will pump waste to a central processing facility where it will be concentrated. The concentrated liquid then will go into a second system that produces biogas, which is piped to an enclosed plant where thermocatalytic processes convert it into biomethanol. The biomethanol will be shipped outside of Utah for processing into biodiesel, using soybean oil, used cooking oil, animal fat, or other oils. The biodiesel is a clean-burning, renewable fuel that can also extend the life of diesel engines because of improved lubricating action, according to the company. - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Biodiesel - Egroups [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Biofuel - Egroups biofuel@egroups.com; Alternate Power - Egroups [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 3rdworldenergy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; BFIC [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuels-biz biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com; bio-oil [EMAIL PROTECTED]; BiomassGroup [EMAIL PROTECTED]; EcoPages_Newswire [EMAIL PROTECTED]; future9 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; homeenergysolutions [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sustainablenrg [EMAIL PROTECTED]; vegoil-diesel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wastewatts [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 7:33 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel By REUTERS HICAGO, Feb. 21 (Reuters) - Smithfield Foods Inc., the pork producer, said today that it would build a $20 million site in Utah that would use waste from 500,000 hogs to make biodiesel, a renewable fuel for vehicles. Biodiesel can be made from any fat including vegetable oil and used cooking oil. About 15 million gallons were used in the United States last year. Smithfield said it would be the major partner in BEST BioFuel, a partnership that will build the plant at Smithfield-owned swine production sites near Milford, Utah. Livestock waste can be a source of clean, renewable vehicle fuel, said Robert F. Urell, a Smithfield senior vice president. Construction is scheduled to start in April on the new site, pending final approval of a conditional use permit and a permit from the Utah Department of Environmental Quality. Smithfield's Utah swine operation produces about one million market hogs a year, and the biodiesel project will use the waste from about half of those hogs, the company said. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel
looks like they are steam reforming the methane from digestion of manure into methanol for biodiesel. Another source implied the animal fats were being used for the biodiesel as well. http://mark.asci.ncsu.edu/NCPorkConf/2002/koger.htm The biomethanol will be transported to a plant outside of Utah for processing into biodiesel utilizing oils, such as soybean oil, animal fat or used cooking oil. The result is a clean burning, renewable fuel that also has been shown to extend the life of diesel engines due to improved lubricating action. http://www.smithfieldfoods.com/news/news_030221.html Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 11:17 AM Subject: Re: Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel What technique is being used for this conversion to fuel? Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Fw: [ETList] The Green Car Scam
- Original Message - From: Remy C [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ETList [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:51 PM Subject: [ETList] The Green Car Scam From: http://www.berkshireeagle.com/Stories/0,1413,101~6267~1168342,00.html via: http://www.idontcareaboutair.com Sunday, February 09, 2003 The green car scam Environmentally minded Americans -- which according to polls is most of us -- might reasonably have wondered what the catch was when in his State of the Union address George W. Bush rhapsodized over an American future replete with hydrogen-driven, pollution-free cars. Environmental pros were skeptical right away. They knew that today, 96 percent of the world's hydrogen is produced using oil, coal and natural gas. So even though hydrogen-run fuel-cell vehicles would be clean, the anti-greenhouse-gas net gain would be negligible. The environmentalists' skepticism was borne out last week when Mr. Bush's budget revealed that nearly all of the $1.2 billion for hydrogen-vehicle research and development over five years would go to the coal, petroleum, natural-gas and nuclear-energy industries. The also-rans were solar and wind power, whose share of the RD funds would be minuscule. Investing in fuel-cell technology that's all clean and relies on wind, sun and the exploitation of agricultural waste makes good environmental sense. And even though the widespread use of hydrogen engines may be decades away, perhaps Congress can change Mr. Bush's mal- distribution of funds. That's unlikely. The new head of the relevant Senate committee is Oklahoma's James Inhofe, who thinks environmentalism is a communist plot. Individual states, however, can be helpful in producing greener cars, as California has demonstrated. That big state's tough anti-air-pollution laws have forced auto manufacturers to design and build both cleaner internal-combustion cars and -- most promisingly -- a fast-growing fleet of hybrid cars. Hybrids use two engines, one a standard gasoline burner, the other an electric motor that's recharged by the internal-combustion engine and by braking. The two engines alternate, with overall fuel usage greatly reduced. Toyota and Honda have sold tens of thousands of hybrids, and General Motors -- fearful of being left in the dust by the Japanese again -- is planning a 40-mile-per-gallon hybrid SUV for the 2005 model year. Though they're a little more expensive than standard cars, hybrids may account for as much as 15 percent of U.S. vehicle sales within a few decades. California and other states should also mandate significantly greater fuel efficiency in standard cars, a step the Bush administration refuses to take. The administration's mileage standards for next year don't even take advantage of existing technology. Far-sighted states should also regulate and tax gas-hog SUVs into oblivion. More than just symbols of aggression and arrogance, these dangerous behemoths are more responsible than any other single factor for U.S. dependence on foreign oil. A fair way for the U.S. to fight any war in the oil fields of the Middle East might be to field an army of draftees composed entirely of SUV owners. That might produce some second thoughts. ET List http://www.electrifyingtimes.com To view ET List message archive go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ETList/messages Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] ot: australia organic acreage for sale
thought some of you guys might want to know of this. 400 beautiful / scenic acres situated at Upper Fine Flower, approx. 45 km's North West of Grafton N.S.W. Organically certified through Organic Herb Growers of Australia Inc., this property is ideal for grazing and/or cropping. The property has 4 titles each of approx. 100 acres. Fine Flower Creek runs through the centre of the property with several spring feed lagoons and dams. The property has road frontage and cattle yards and is adjacent to National Park. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2308370439category=1607 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] crude oil @ about $35 per barell on Friday, explosion at NY area Exxon-Mobiil facility short-term boost to prices
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7146769BRD=988PAG=461dept_id=141274rfi=6 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel
-Must be something new where a methane rich source is converted to and oil. gaw -- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel By REUTERS HICAGO, Feb. 21 (Reuters) - Smithfield Foods Inc., the pork producer, said today that it would build a $20 million site in Utah that would use waste from 500,000 hogs to make biodiesel, a renewable fuel for vehicles. Biodiesel can be made from any fat including vegetable oil and used cooking oil. About 15 million gallons were used in the United States last year. Smithfield said it would be the major partner in BEST BioFuel, a partnership that will build the plant at Smithfield-owned swine production sites near Milford, Utah. Livestock waste can be a source of clean, renewable vehicle fuel, said Robert F. Urell, a Smithfield senior vice president. Construction is scheduled to start in April on the new site, pending final approval of a conditional use permit and a permit from the Utah Department of Environmental Quality. Smithfield's Utah swine operation produces about one million market hogs a year, and the biodiesel project will use the waste from about half of those hogs, the company said. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
Do you mean that AOL/Time-Warner/Disney/ABC hasn't been giving it to me straight? Then maybe Old Yeller' is still alive? Think of the possibilities!!! We can rewrite history!!! Sad, but that's what is happening daily.as a result of the formation of misperceptions due to selective representation of content. And people are making wrong decisions every moment as a result of those missed representations. Todd Swearingen You trust these people, but you really shouldn't. Your media has been bought out, lock stock and barrel, by massive, powerful, vested interests whose media ownership would quite rightly have been outright illegal not very long ago, before they started putting the pressure on to have the laws changed. Their interests are inimical to the public interest and to the free flow of information. While you're there, check this out: http://www.takebackthemedia.com/owners.html Who Owns The Media? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Do you mean trivia like blood diamonds, sweat shop prepared designer clothing, harp seal coats and whale meat? Probably not. Even those trinkets that have been banned are coming back into fashion under new rules of rationalization. Elephant ivory, rare hardwoods, turtle soup... As for the fundamental human population problem? The problem is a little more fundamental than that. It's not the population that is the primary problem. It's the human mindset that is grotesquely averse to responsible resource management, inclusive of all the political precursors. Disposing of a few humans here and there only stunts the primary problemKind of like putting a temporary patch of Medicaire, Medicaid and Social Security systems in the US. Eventually they will go bankrupt if the core problems are not addressed. Oh.and that Volvo and SUV? I'd trade them in for a Golf and a Lupo if I were you. Not quite the status symbols as your present fleetbut then you're not in it for status (or are you?). (Just bemusing Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal
I hate to be the bearer of sad news Todd, but Old Yeller never was alive. That dog was an actor. :( Kirk -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:20 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Latest from my Pal Do you mean that AOL/Time-Warner/Disney/ABC hasn't been giving it to me straight? Then maybe Old Yeller' is still alive? Think of the possibilities!!! We can rewrite history!!! Sad, but that's what is happening daily.as a result of the formation of misperceptions due to selective representation of content. And people are making wrong decisions every moment as a result of those missed representations. Todd Swearingen You trust these people, but you really shouldn't. Your media has been bought out, lock stock and barrel, by massive, powerful, vested interests whose media ownership would quite rightly have been outright illegal not very long ago, before they started putting the pressure on to have the laws changed. Their interests are inimical to the public interest and to the free flow of information. While you're there, check this out: http://www.takebackthemedia.com/owners.html Who Owns The Media? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.454 / Virus Database: 253 - Release Date: 2/10/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] (fwd) a few new alternative fueled cars
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/feb03/tcar.html I wonder how this Fiat would work on biodiesel, and whether it will be around, since Fiat appears to be on its death-bed, though I guess that could change. Fiat Stilo A smokeless diesel Diesels, until recently famous for fuel frugality but infamous for smoke, are being tamed all over Europe. Fiat's Stilo 1.9JTD is one of the best-mannered of them all. Available in Europe for Û15 360, it incorporates both a new diesel engine, produced in conjunction with parent company General Motors Corp., and a particulate filter. The 1.2-L, four-cylinder engine begins with the known trick of pre-injecting fuel in order to increase temperature and pressure, then takes it further, splitting the injection into a series of closely spaced, smaller injections. The carefully timed dribble of fuel burns ever so smoothly, eliminating irregularities of combustion and thus heightening performance while reducing noise and emissions. Further cleanup comes in the particulate filter, a silicon carbide structure coated with catalysts that trap 90 percent of diesel particulates, enough to eliminate all smoke. When the filter feels it's full up÷after about every 700 km÷it heats itself enough to oxidize the trapped particles into carbon dioxide and water. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Sorry Jess, Your message implies that the fault lays with improperly trained young adults, as if the adults are somehow disassociated from the myriads of fatalities involving SUVs. And, since no one asked Get rid of the power steering on vehicles and you'd probably get rid of a high number of accidents attributable to over correction. Replace it with rack and pinion and you'd find people driving in manners more suitable to the road conditions (which oddly enough are filled with oncoming projectiles of similar speed) and driver skill. In adverse driving conditions (weather, speed, road or any combination thereof), it's the closest thing short of a death sentence to not drive with both hands on a power steering equipped vehicle - just to prevent over steer. Throw in inexperienced drivers and you have a recipe for even greater disaster. (And no. That's not simply a matter of personal opinion.) Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: studio53 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears The last time I looked at my Isuzu Trooper 4x4 sitting in driveway, it wasn't killing anyone. SUV's don't kill people. People kill people because it's not a requirement of the law to have any specific training on a motor vehicle, so a parent letting their child or teenager into a large 4x4 vehicle without having provided any type of prior training is asking for trouble. Jess -- - Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do
[biofuel] Bush's H-Car Is Just Hot Air
From: Robert Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Easterbrook: Bush's H-Car Is Just Hot Air Date: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:30 PM http://www.tnr.com http://www.thenewrepublic.com copyrighted by The New Republic, article is published in issue of 24 Feb 03 WHY BUSH'S H-CAR IS JUST HOT AIR. Car Talk by Gregg Easterbrook Printer friendly Post date 02.18.03 | Issue date 02.24.03E-mail this article A single chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen generates energy, which can be used to power a car producing only water, not exhaust fumes. With a new national commitment, our scientists and engineers will overcome obstacles to taking these cars from laboratory to showroom so that the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen and pollution-free. President Bush said these words during his State of the Union address, introducing the FreedomFUEL proposal--which is really how the White House spells it. The president wants to spend $1.2 billion over the next five years to research the production of hydrogen as a replacement for gasoline in automobiles. Someday men and women will probably drive cars running on fuel-cell motors that have no pistons, consume hydrogen, and emit no pollutants, including no greenhouse gases. Between the zero-pollutants advantages of hydrogen and the fact that its supply is in principle inexhaustible, the world's petroleum-based economy will probably eventually yield to a hydrogen-based economy--to everyone's benefit. Republicans relentlessly mocked Al Gore for saying the internal combustion engine should be replaced by something better, and now George W. Bush is saying exactly the same thing. The attraction of hydrogen is great, since hydrogen-based transportation would both be environmentally benign and reduce the need for the United States to import petroleum. But Bush's proposal joins a new convention of rhapsodizing about hydrogen-powered transportation--Jeremy Rifkin numbers among current hydrogen zealots--while skipping over the small matter of where we get the hydrogen. Worse, the White House plan offers a long-term distraction from a short-term need: While the administration dreams big about our hydrogen-powered future, it does little to improve fuel-economy standards today. There are many impediments to a future in which fuel-cell automobiles dominate America's roadways. What form--gaseous, liquid, or mixed with metallic dust to prevent explosion should there be an accident--would the hydrogen we pump into our cars take? How would the hydrogen be moved in commercial quantities to those filling stations? Could average motorists pump hydrogen themselves, considering it is now handled only by specialists? But these are engineering questions and presumably can be answered. Unfortunately, a cost-effective answer to the question of how to obtain hydrogen may prove more elusive than answers to questions about how to handle it. At first glance, this issue would seem simple. After all, our world contains gargantuan amounts of hydrogen--two-thirds of the oceans, for instance, are made up of this element. But the pure form of hydrogen needed to power fuel-cell cars does not occur naturally on Earth, where hydrogen is chemically bound to other elements, such as oxygen in the case of the oceans. And, while the stars contain an almost inexpressible amount of hydrogen in its pure form, stellar material will not be on sale at your local filling station anytime soon, or ever. Because pure hydrogen does not occur naturally on Earth, any pure hydrogen for use as fuel must be manufactured. Today, pure hydrogen is most often made using natural gas as a feedstock, but that means fossil fuels are still being consumed: Basically, the process turns a fossil fuel, methane, into something that seems not to be a fossil fuel, hydrogen. Pure hydrogen can also be manufactured using petroleum or coal, which of course are the very fossil fuels whose grip we wish to loosen. And, while pure hydrogen has been manufactured from agricultural products--plants contain hydrogen bound as carbohydrates--at the research level, it remains to be seen whether this could work commercially. Enviros rhapsodize about making hydrogen from seawater. But there's a catch: Making hydrogen from water requires loads of electricity, far more electricity than the energy value of the hydrogen that is obtained, and something--be it a coal-fired power plant or an atomic reactor--must provide the electricity. Indeed, the big misconception about hydrogen is that it is a source of energy. Pure hydrogen is not an energy source, except to stars. As it will be used in cars or to power homes and offices, hydrogen--like a battery--is an energy medium, a way to store power that has been obtained in some other way. Hydrogen makes an attractive energy medium because its fuel-cycle calculations--the sum of all steps of manufacture and use--show reductions in greenhouse gases compared with any automotive fuel
Re: [biofuel] PBS - The War Behind Closed Doors
Hakan, I rather like the concept of the inability to domesticate cultures. Although it's being attempted with great ferver everywhere. What was it that Chancellor Schroeder said the other day? Something to the effect of While it may only take one country to wage war, it will take the many nations of the UN to wage peace. And yes unilateralism will inevitably spawn greater acts of terrorism. It is a bizarre mindset that would believe that such a practice can achieve anything less. Very much as if the present US administration is seeking that very thing, giving it cause to continue its march into other countries in response to each new retalliation. There is a better path for those with the stomach for it. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] PBS - The War Behind Closed Doors Todd, I am worried about all the things that can go wrong for US, - The bombing of Perl Harbor and the declaration of war, was not an attempt to invade US. It was an attempt to scare US to lift the oil blockade on Japan. It was a gross misjudgment in US resolve and willingness to go to war and more in the industrial capacity to recover and wage war in the remote areas of Pacific. - US involvement in Europe was key efforts in material and to save Europe from being occupied by the Soviets. Without this assistance the Western alliance would not had the resources to land in Europe and the likelihood that Stalin would have crushed Hitler on his own is very large. - Germany did not have energy resources and not the time to develop the ones they occupied in Middle East. They were disturbed by the locals and the Western alliance. - Germany who was betting on a far larger support in the countries they occupied, did not get it and made large mistakes in appointing puppet regimes. At the end the Germans was too few to control their emerging empire on their own. They had clear indications of local support, but when they got in, it was not enough to maintain peaceful occupations. They honestly thought that the puppet regimes had larger popular support and could maintain order, Instead they had to take the policing task, even in Italy who was one of the allies. I am afraid that US is taking the same chances and maybe find themselves doing the same mistakes. Iraq is not going to use WMD, they will try to destroy the oil reserves to be useless for at least one or two decades. They will also try to do the same with the Saudi and Kuweit oil and if they only are half successful, they will do more harm to the world, and especially US, than any possible WMD. The Iraqi population is more than 50% under 16 years old. They only know a very large hatred against US and the sanctions who killed so many of their friends. They are also well indoctrinated and that is very powerful. How can US even dream of a US friendly democracy or even a sustainable puppet regime? I cannot belive that the US government themselves think they will be able to do what they want the world and the US population to belive. Even if US initially can limit the destruction of the oil fields, they take a risk of continuous sabotage from a widespread resistance movement. This resistance movement will spread to other oil producers and the most effective target will be the oil production. With only a swing production capacity of 2,5 billion barrels per day, it does not take much to bring the world into a very deep recession and problems in maintaining war efforts. In the long run I do not believe in a development in US that would move towards a Bush dictatorship and I agree with your points. I do belive in that the American people never could be domesticated and I also believe that this is the case in many countries. It is however a large risk for something like a third world war, different than the previous ones of course. The world population is now beginning to see US as the largest threat to world peace and maybe they are right. Before US have change their policies and restored the democracy, US and the world will have problems of a disastrous magnitude. The Genie is out of the bottle and will be difficult to put back. It is not the world doctrine coup I am worried about, it is the chain of events that it will start. Hakan It is too many things At 01:46 AM 2/21/2003 -0500, you wrote: Hakan, I think you need not worry terribly long about a world doctrine coup. The global perspective relative to my nation will not long last as being one of a moral and pricipled lighthouseof free nations at the rate she is going and at the helm of her present leadership. I'm greatly concerned that the previous isolationist policy of our present administration will quickly become a reality, but one of isolationism as a result of the global politic disassociating itself due to the
[biofuel] more biodiesel resources
Hey all, Just checked out the yokayo biofuels website and their resources/links section is quite good: http://www.ybiofuels.org/bio_fuels/links.html check it out. mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William ThomasÊ
who gives a rats ass about the presidents of Russia, China, France and Germany? or the Bishops of Britain and the Pope? do they now set American Policy? I have never seen President Bush suggest coveting another's property, theft of their oil, and mass murder of defenseless populations? what a bunch of horseshit. For the most part, but not all, President Bush speaks for the wishes of his countryfolk, especially this member. Is william thomas nuts? sounds like it.. He has his facts all screwed up. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:48 PM Subject: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William Thomas Well, I wasn't going to forward this, knowing how easily so many will try to dismiss some of the thought processes. But the question and the validations are not as unbelievable as those who have been Limbaughtomized would care to think. Todd Swearingen ... IS BUSH NUTS? by William Thomas www.Lifeboatnews.com Feb. 12, 2003 What drives a man to go against the wishes of his countryfolk and the entire world community -- including the presidents of Russia, China, France and Germany? How can a professed Christian continue to defy church leaders worldwide -- including the Bishops of Britain and the Pope? How does he rationalize breaking the commandments of his God, which clearly prohibit coveting another's property, theft of their oil, and mass murder of defenseless populations? How can he ignore his own generals when they complain, We're advocating a policy that says we will invade another nation that is not currently attacking us or invading any of our allies. [Capitol Hill Blue Jan, 22, 2003] To those who deem it unseemly to count the brick's on one man's load, let us recall that this unelected President is one brick short of killing what the UN fears could be up to a half-million people in Iraq. This massacre could easily see Pakistan's government -- and its 30 to 40 nukes -- falling to an al Qaeda/Taliban majority. Bush's announced plans to attack North Korea and Iran have already prompted both countries to hit the nuclear gas pedal, virtually assuring a nuclear event. And his $5 trillion blowout has taken the American economy to a $2 trillion deficit in two short years. As ignored global warming triggers Extreme Weather Events, frightened Nobel price-winning economists warn that GW's proposed $600 billion tax cut is fiscal madness -- a very serious economic error that will collapse the country in exactly the same way the ex-Soviet Empire went bust buying and deploying so many arms in so many places. Ditto Imperial Rome. Are these the acts of a rational person? Not since Nixon's famous freak-outs in the White House, which saw National Security Adviser Henry Kissinger ordering military commanders to ignore nuclear launch orders from their Commander-In-Chief, is it so urgent that we examine a president's cognitive capacities. [The Trial of Henry Kissinger] It might be useful to scrutinize the following findings. While everyone goes nuts from time to time, the salient question is whether traits described below dominate and drive today's presidential decisions. Is a man called by other government reps, an idiot an imbecile dangerously incompetent and a moron competent, capable and qualified to direct America's unchallenged military might? Read on. If you dare. PATTERN RECOGNITION Is The 'President' Nuts? asks Carol Wolman, M.D. Many people, inside and especially outside this country, believe that the American president is nuts, and is taking the world on a suicidal path. [Counterpunch Oct. 2, 2002] A board-certified psychiatrist in practice for 30 years, Dr. Wolman feels compelled to understand the psychopathology of man under tremendous pressure from both his family/junta, and from the world at large. Dr. Wolman wonders if GW is suffering from Antisocial Personality Disorder, as described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Fourth Edition: There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others: 1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest; 2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure; 5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others; 7) lack of remorse by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated or stolen from others. DRY DRUNK GW Bush is highly regarded for kicking the twin demons of cocaine and alcohol addiction. If he is still off both wagons -- and there is no proof that isn't -- such a triumph, encouraged and aided by his
RE: [biofuel] Re: (fwd) a few new alternative fueled cars
Girl_Mark: I have been away from it for a while, but it use to be that you had to meet or exceeded safety, fuel consumption, and emissions standards for that year. And 4 tons of paper work. Harley -Original Message- From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 12:05 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: (fwd) a few new alternative fueled cars Every time I read a post like this I turn green with envy and get mad that they';re not going to be available here in the US anytime soon. ! ALong the same lines, anyone got any info on what it takes to import vehicles into the US which were never offered here- ie regulations - wise, would it even be legal for someone to bring in a Lupo for on- road use (not sure what other kind of use a lupo would be capable of) Mark Fiat Stilo A smokeless diesel Diesels, until recently famous for fuel frugality but infamous for smoke, are being tamed all over Europe. Fiat's Stilo 1.9JTD is one of the best- mannered of them all. Available in Europe for Û15 360, it incorporates both a new diesel engine, produced in conjunction with parent company General Motors Corp., and a particulate filter. The 1.2-L, four-cylinder engine begins with the known trick of pre- injecting fuel in order to increase temperature and pressure, then takes it further, splitting the injection into a series of closely spaced, smaller injections. The carefully timed dribble of fuel burns ever so smoothly, eliminating irregularities of combustion and thus heightening performance while reducing noise and emissions. Further cleanup comes in the particulate filter, a silicon carbide structure coated with catalysts that trap 90 percent of diesel particulates, enough to eliminate all smoke. When the filter feels it's full up÷after about every 700 km÷it heats itself enough to oxidize the trapped particles into carbon dioxide and water. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: (fwd) a few new alternative fueled cars
I wonder how the effort toward fuller biomass use, biofuel, etc. is going in Italy. Haven't we seen many stories over the years as to the effects of pollution on the structures and artworks which had managed to weather so many centuries prior to the industrial revolution? I wonder if the innovations in this car are partly a result of that country's need to concern itself with eradicating pollution, and to what extent there has been exploration of biodiesel in such cars, also with an eye toward eradication of pollution. Fiat is (reportedly) in serious financial trouble and some of the stories I read take their demise almost for-granted. My own view is that there should be a way to fix the situation, though I'm not sure how. This has come to have something to do with GM because GM apparently was foolish enough to take out some sort of legal obligation to purchase the remaining share of Fiat which they do not presently own, or something like that, under certain conditions. I have been reading off and on that GM has been trying to figure a way out of the situation, but I'm not sure what their present position is. I found this post in the alternativefuelvehicles group and there has been a little discussion there recently of diesels in the US and their availablity over the last couple of decades, or lack thereof. Every time I read a post like this I turn green with envy and get mad that they';re not going to be available here in the US anytime soon. ! ALong the same lines, anyone got any info on what it takes to import vehicles into the US which were never offered here- ie regulations - wise, would it even be legal for someone to bring in a Lupo for on- road use (not sure what other kind of use a lupo would be capable of) Mark Fiat Stilo A smokeless diesel Diesels, until recently famous for fuel frugality but infamous for smoke, are being tamed all over Europe. Fiat's Stilo 1.9JTD is one of the best- mannered of them all. Available in Europe for Û15 360, it incorporates both a new diesel engine, produced in conjunction with parent company General Motors Corp., and a particulate filter. The 1.2-L, four-cylinder engine begins with the known trick of pre- injecting fuel in order to increase temperature and pressure, then takes it further, splitting the injection into a series of closely spaced, smaller injections. The carefully timed dribble of fuel burns ever so smoothly, eliminating irregularities of combustion and thus heightening performance while reducing noise and emissions. Further cleanup comes in the particulate filter, a silicon carbide structure coated with catalysts that trap 90 percent of diesel particulates, enough to eliminate all smoke. When the filter feels it's full up÷after about every 700 km÷it heats itself enough to oxidize the trapped particles into carbon dioxide and water. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel
looks like they are steam reforming the methane from digestion of manure into methanol for biodiesel. Another source implied the animal fats were being used for the biodiesel as well. http://mark.asci.ncsu.edu/NCPorkConf/2002/koger.htm The biomethanol will be transported to a plant outside of Utah for processing into biodiesel utilizing oils, such as soybean oil, animal fat or used cooking oil. The result is a clean burning, renewable fuel that also has been shown to extend the life of diesel engines due to improved lubricating action. http://www.smithfieldfoods.com/news/news_030221.html Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 11:17 AM Subject: Re: Smithfield to Convert Hog Waste Into Fuel What technique is being used for this conversion to fuel? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Who are these guys?? Was: PBS - The War Behind Closed Doors
Terrorist - Any person or group of people guilty of striking-back (punching) (even in self-defense) a raving lunatic who goes up and down your neighborhood street, knocking on everyone's door, punching the lights out of the poor soul that answers the door, and proceeding to help-himself with every asset in your home. spelled T. E. R. R. O. R. I. S. T.. Terrorist. sigh Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hakan, I rather like the concept of the inability to domesticate cultures. Although it's being attempted with great ferver everywhere. And yes unilateralism will inevitably spawn greater acts of terrorism. It is a bizarre mindset that would believe that such a practice can achieve anything less. Very much as if the present US administration is seeking that very thing, giving it cause to continue its march into other countries in response to each new retalliation. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans and trucks used by service people, are they also being considered SUV's?Who made the decision of what constituted a SUV? Mater of fact what does constitutes a SUV, and why? Confused in Wisconsin Harley -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:49 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken Haven't you been following it, Ken? The CAFE standards business, the big tax breaks for SUVs (but not for hybrids)? If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Not really - it's a myth. Or at least if you want to propose it as a reason for hunger and poverty it's a myth, and indeed for environmental degradation. That has been addressed here, a number of times. Check this out: http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger If you're proposing it as a problem, or THE problem, per se, that's also a myth, plenty of room still. If you look at the eco-footprint data, which isn't as simplistic as it's sometimes said to be, it comes down to the same thing - the rich industrialized-country populations have massive footprints, much bigger than their countries, others don't, and the inequity is much the same as that behind poverty and hunger, and behind the 4% of the world's population that are Americans using 25% of the world's energy supply - using or wasting. Which brings us back to SUVs. Um, what nutters do we get on this page? Regards Keith Dear Keith, I think I understand, this is the anti US page! sincerely, Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Looking at the RESPONSE ... too all that's going on in the world. Was: PBS - The War Behind Closed Doors
I still think the UN is simply USING Bush. To make THEMSELVES (look like) the only way to peace. To make everyone say, h ... ah ohh that's why we NEED the UN. So they can hook up everyone under themselves make every President of every country reduced to nothing more than a senator of a global level government (Global level Senate /House of Representative ... like the State level and Federal level) Every Senator (President) hooked up under the Global level Senate?? Voila ... there you've got it A (one BIG) one-world government. But then again ... that's only my observation. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hakan, I rather like the concept of the inability to domesticate cultures. Although it's being attempted with great ferver everywhere. What was it that Chancellor Schroeder said the other day? Something to the effect of While it may only take one country to wage war, it will take the many nations of the UN to wage peace. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Looking at the RESPONSE ... too all that's going on in the world. Was: PBS - The War Behind Closed Doors
it's an interesting observation, and I find little wrong with it. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:09 PM Subject: [biofuel] Looking at the RESPONSE ... too all that's going on in the world. Was: PBS - The War Behind Closed Doors I still think the UN is simply USING Bush. To make THEMSELVES (look like) the only way to peace. To make everyone say, h ... ah ohh that's why we NEED the UN. So they can hook up everyone under themselves make every President of every country reduced to nothing more than a senator of a global level government (Global level Senate /House of Representative ... like the State level and Federal level) Every Senator (President) hooked up under the Global level Senate?? Voila ... there you've got it A (one BIG) one-world government. But then again ... that's only my observation. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hakan, I rather like the concept of the inability to domesticate cultures. Although it's being attempted with great ferver everywhere. What was it that Chancellor Schroeder said the other day? Something to the effect of While it may only take one country to wage war, it will take the many nations of the UN to wage peace. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: hog fat and vegetarians?
anyone wondering about what the industry did with this pork or other slaughterhouse fat prior to getting into the biodiesel business should take a look at Griffin Industries' website. They are a renderer who now make biodiesel, including from WVO I believe. But the rest of their products are (or at least last time I checked) some of those animal cannibalism products we love to hate- turning dead animal parts into 'food' for formerly herbivorous livestock... mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fuel made from animal by-products raises an interesting issue for vegan and vegetarians, does it not? --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Mine doesn't kill either. Neither do the ones I've converted to wvo. I do have some near misses every day with soccer moms, but they are dangerous no matter what vehicle they drive. There is nothing inherently dangerous or evil about a SUV. like anything, they can be misused. The diesel ones get good mileage, and are excellent biodiesel/wvo showcases. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how.
[biofuel] Fw: [ETList] The Green Car Scam
- Original Message - From: Remy C [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ETList [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:51 PM Subject: [ETList] The Green Car Scam From: http://www.berkshireeagle.com/Stories/0,1413,101~6267~1168342,00.html via: http://www.idontcareaboutair.com Sunday, February 09, 2003 The green car scam Environmentally minded Americans -- which according to polls is most of us -- might reasonably have wondered what the catch was when in his State of the Union address George W. Bush rhapsodized over an American future replete with hydrogen-driven, pollution-free cars. Environmental pros were skeptical right away. They knew that today, 96 percent of the world's hydrogen is produced using oil, coal and natural gas. So even though hydrogen-run fuel-cell vehicles would be clean, the anti-greenhouse-gas net gain would be negligible. The environmentalists' skepticism was borne out last week when Mr. Bush's budget revealed that nearly all of the $1.2 billion for hydrogen-vehicle research and development over five years would go to the coal, petroleum, natural-gas and nuclear-energy industries. The also-rans were solar and wind power, whose share of the RD funds would be minuscule. Investing in fuel-cell technology that's all clean and relies on wind, sun and the exploitation of agricultural waste makes good environmental sense. And even though the widespread use of hydrogen engines may be decades away, perhaps Congress can change Mr. Bush's mal- distribution of funds. That's unlikely. The new head of the relevant Senate committee is Oklahoma's James Inhofe, who thinks environmentalism is a communist plot. Individual states, however, can be helpful in producing greener cars, as California has demonstrated. That big state's tough anti-air-pollution laws have forced auto manufacturers to design and build both cleaner internal-combustion cars and -- most promisingly -- a fast-growing fleet of hybrid cars. Hybrids use two engines, one a standard gasoline burner, the other an electric motor that's recharged by the internal-combustion engine and by braking. The two engines alternate, with overall fuel usage greatly reduced. Toyota and Honda have sold tens of thousands of hybrids, and General Motors -- fearful of being left in the dust by the Japanese again -- is planning a 40-mile-per-gallon hybrid SUV for the 2005 model year. Though they're a little more expensive than standard cars, hybrids may account for as much as 15 percent of U.S. vehicle sales within a few decades. California and other states should also mandate significantly greater fuel efficiency in standard cars, a step the Bush administration refuses to take. The administration's mileage standards for next year don't even take advantage of existing technology. Far-sighted states should also regulate and tax gas-hog SUVs into oblivion. More than just symbols of aggression and arrogance, these dangerous behemoths are more responsible than any other single factor for U.S. dependence on foreign oil. A fair way for the U.S. to fight any war in the oil fields of the Middle East might be to field an army of draftees composed entirely of SUV owners. That might produce some second thoughts. ET List http://www.electrifyingtimes.com To view ET List message archive go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ETList/messages Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Ken, Maybe it is bad wording from an ignorant foreigner and in this case I have to apologize. For the rest I have to refer to my and others postings in the Biofuel archive, there are no real reason for me to repeat the discussion. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messagesearch?query=SUV I tried search on, http://archive.nnytech.net/ but it did not work. Hakan At 07:57 PM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
My concern is with a group of trucks and vans being demonized just because of their looks. Because of demonizing the standards are being changed. What is going to be changed? How many of you may remember Ford motor Company producing the F series truck with the light weight frames in the late 70's and early 80's. Because of the oil embargo back then. Ford used a new light weight frame for pickup trucks. The trucks did get better mileage, but they also start bending frames. Hauling large loads or snow plowing could bend the frame on your new truck. If you put a snow plow on your truck, you also had to buy and install frame stiffeners.So I am to trust a person or group of people that probably are not even able to check their own motor oil, to make engineering decisions due to look? Yes that sounds about right. I forgot they are the ones that decided my snow plow truck is an SUV. Harley -Original Message- From: Steve Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:03 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Mine doesn't kill either. Neither do the ones I've converted to wvo. I do have some near misses every day with soccer moms, but they are dangerous no matter what vehicle they drive. There is nothing inherently dangerous or evil about a SUV. like anything, they can be misused. The diesel ones get good mileage, and are excellent biodiesel/wvo showcases. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Naw, Ken. This is just the anti-non-thinking page. It has universal appeal, save for non-thinkers. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken Haven't you been following it, Ken? The CAFE standards business, the big tax breaks for SUVs (but not for hybrids)? If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Not really - it's a myth. Or at least if you want to propose it as a reason for hunger and poverty it's a myth, and indeed for environmental degradation. That has been addressed here, a number of times. Check this out: http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger If you're proposing it as a problem, or THE problem, per se, that's also a myth, plenty of room still. If you look at the eco-footprint data, which isn't as simplistic as it's sometimes said to be, it comes down to the same thing - the rich industrialized-country populations have massive footprints, much bigger than their countries, others don't, and the inequity is much the same as that behind poverty and hunger, and behind the 4% of the world's population that are Americans using 25% of the world's energy supply - using or wasting. Which brings us back to SUVs. Um, what nutters do we get on this page? Regards Keith Dear Keith, I think I understand, this is the anti US page! sincerely, Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] ot: australia organic acreage for sale
thought some of you guys might want to know of this. 400 beautiful / scenic acres situated at Upper Fine Flower, approx. 45 km's North West of Grafton N.S.W. Organically certified through Organic Herb Growers of Australia Inc., this property is ideal for grazing and/or cropping. The property has 4 titles each of approx. 100 acres. Fine Flower Creek runs through the centre of the property with several spring feed lagoons and dams. The property has road frontage and cattle yards and is adjacent to National Park. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2308370439category=1607 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Mr. Falk: Ignorant you are not. I can not speak for the other people in this group. I many not always agreed with you, but I personally respect your opinion. You know what you want, and are trying to accomplish your goals. Have a good one Harley -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:41 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, Maybe it is bad wording from an ignorant foreigner and in this case I have to apologize. For the rest I have to refer to my and others postings in the Biofuel archive, there are no real reason for me to repeat the discussion. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messagesearch?query=SUV I tried search on, http://archive.nnytech.net/ but it did not work. Hakan At 07:57 PM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh
[biofuel] crude oil @ about $35 per barell on Friday, explosion at NY area Exxon-Mobiil facility short-term boost to prices
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7146769BRD=988PAG=461dept_id=141274rfi=6 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William ThomasÊ
Steve, A bit out of character for you to express such rage and open hostility. Who cares? Probably all the rest of the world that doesn't live cacooned away from the imediate repercussions of Mr. Bush's new policy of first strike and pre-emption. That and those who will inevitably reap the secondary and tertiary harvests of the new US foreign policy of Shoot first, ask questions later. Yes, the majority of the world does give a rat's backside about those things that tend to affect them as universally as war. And it's far more than possible that the rest of the world has a better grip on the matter and a less narrow focus than the man who has openly expressed a desire to set right the wrongs of his father's ouster. You fail to recognize (or fail to acknowledge recognition) that Iraq only poses the threat that has been expressed as being perceived by US policy makers up to this point - short of a new missile that exceeds the UN resolution limit by but a few miles. And it doesn't help when your secretary of state waves a sheaflet of years old suppositions and surmises in front of the international community as if it was that morning's griddle cakes. Something is horribly rotten in Denmark, and the Danes and Swedes and Germans and French and Americans and Brits and Chinese and anyone else has a valid right to complain about the stench. Based upon the current record, this push for war is more of an attempt to either cover or right the wrongs of the previous administrations that seated Hussein in power in the first place, than any response to an iminent or present threat. That is exactly what makes a look at the breadth and depth of the demeanor and psyche of a reigning head of state all the more important. Anyone willing to launch a military action deserves to be scrutinized in such a manner - not just given a by as a result of being a US president - and perhaps least of all because of such a position. Thomas is far from nuts for asking the questions. But those who fail to confront or even contemplate them - those of psychological and social behavior - much less factoring in the who, the how, the why and the end results of Mr. Bush's grooming and cabinet level focus groups, either have a great desire to keep the rock pulled snugly over their heads, or have already purchased the bill of goods being sold them. His question is far more valid than your above atypical response - all-be-you entitled to it. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William Thomas who gives a rats ass about the presidents of Russia, China, France and Germany? or the Bishops of Britain and the Pope? do they now set American Policy? I have never seen President Bush suggest coveting another's property, theft of their oil, and mass murder of defenseless populations? what a bunch of horseshit. For the most part, but not all, President Bush speaks for the wishes of his countryfolk, especially this member. Is william thomas nuts? sounds like it.. He has his facts all screwed up. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:48 PM Subject: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William Thomas Well, I wasn't going to forward this, knowing how easily so many will try to dismiss some of the thought processes. But the question and the validations are not as unbelievable as those who have been Limbaughtomized would care to think. Todd Swearingen ... IS BUSH NUTS? by William Thomas www.Lifeboatnews.com Feb. 12, 2003 What drives a man to go against the wishes of his countryfolk and the entire world community -- including the presidents of Russia, China, France and Germany? How can a professed Christian continue to defy church leaders worldwide -- including the Bishops of Britain and the Pope? How does he rationalize breaking the commandments of his God, which clearly prohibit coveting another's property, theft of their oil, and mass murder of defenseless populations? How can he ignore his own generals when they complain, We're advocating a policy that says we will invade another nation that is not currently attacking us or invading any of our allies. [Capitol Hill Blue Jan, 22, 2003] To those who deem it unseemly to count the brick's on one man's load, let us recall that this unelected President is one brick short of killing what the UN fears could be up to a half-million people in Iraq. This massacre could easily see Pakistan's government -- and its 30 to 40 nukes -- falling to an al Qaeda/Taliban majority. Bush's
Re: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William ThomasÊ
I'm sick, I'm cranky, and that article was riddled with inaccuracies and half truths. I guess I'm tired of the America bashing that's going on. I voted for the guy, and would again. The alternative was much worse. Nobody is lily white, but the American System is more right than wrong, and I'm proud of it. see below for my half cocked one liners and superfluous comments. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William Thomas Steve, A bit out of character for you to express such rage and open hostility. yes it is Who cares? Probably all the rest of the world that doesn't live cacooned away from the imediate repercussions of Mr. Bush's new policy of first strike and pre-emption. not first srtrike. I was in Manhattan on sept 11th, only a few blocks away. I will never forget. That and those who will inevitably reap the secondary and tertiary harvests of the new US foreign policy of Shoot first, ask questions later. that not our policy. Yes, the majority of the world does give a rat's backside about those things that tend to affect them as universally as war. And it's far more than possible that the rest of the world has a better grip on the matter and a less narrow focus than the man who has openly expressed a desire to set right the wrongs of his father's ouster. thats bullshit You fail to recognize (or fail to acknowledge recognition) that Iraq only poses the threat that has been expressed as being perceived by US policy makers up to this point - short of a new missile that exceeds the UN resolution limit by but a few miles. And it doesn't help when your secretary of state waves a sheaflet of years old suppositions and surmises in front of the international community as if it was that morning's griddle cakes. blame the british for that. It was fed to us as current intel. Something is horribly rotten in Denmark, and the Danes and Swedes and Germans and French and Americans and Brits and Chinese and anyone else has a valid right to complain about the stench. the stench is coming from the other side of the world. Based upon the current record, this push for war is more of an attempt to either cover or right the wrongs of the previous administrations that seated Hussein in power in the first place, than any response to an iminent or present threat. half truth. That is exactly what makes a look at the breadth and depth of the demeanor and psyche of a reigning head of state all the more important. Anyone willing to launch a military action deserves to be scrutinized in such a manner - not just given a by as a result of being a US president - and perhaps least of all because of such a position. absolutly, I agree. Thomas is far from nuts for asking the questions. not for asking the questions, but for coming to the conclusions. the evidence doesn't suggest what he claims. But those who fail to confront or even contemplate them - those of psychological and social behavior - much less factoring in the who, the how, the why and the end results of Mr. Bush's grooming and cabinet level focus groups, either have a great desire to keep the rock pulled snugly over their heads, or have already purchased the bill of goods being sold them. the bill of goods is being sold by the media, acting on innacurate or guessed information, not on solid intel not privy to them. His question is far more valid than your above atypical response - all-be-you entitled to it. he's an ass in my not so humble opinion. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Steve Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William Thomas who gives a rats ass about the presidents of Russia, China, France and Germany? or the Bishops of Britain and the Pope? do they now set American Policy? I have never seen President Bush suggest coveting another's property, theft of their oil, and mass murder of defenseless populations? what a bunch of horseshit. For the most part, but not all, President Bush speaks for the wishes of his countryfolk, especially this member. Is william thomas nuts? sounds like it.. He has his facts all screwed up. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:48 PM Subject: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William Thomas Well, I wasn't going to forward this, knowing
Re: [biofuel] crude oil @ about $35 per barell on Friday, explosion at NY area Exxon-Mobiil facility short-term boost to prices
oh for crying out loud, it was one little barge... Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 6:19 PM Subject: [biofuel] crude oil @ about $35 per barell on Friday, explosion at NY area Exxon-Mobiil facility short-term boost to prices http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7146769BRD=988PAG=461dept_id=14 1274rfi=6 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Need Info on making ethanol from farm crops
http://webconx.green-trust.org/ethanol.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:10 PM Subject: [biofuel] Need Info on making ethanol from farm crops Hello! Where can I get specific instructions on making ethanol, using crops from my own farm? Blessings, texcateyes Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Engine Transplant
I've been kicking around the idea of swapping the 22R in my Toyota PU with a Mercedes 3L. The engine and drive train look like they'll fit (at first glance). Has anyone tried this? Or something similar? _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fw: IS BUSH NUTS? by William ThomasÊ
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 11:26, you wrote: I'm sick, I'm cranky, and that article was riddled with inaccuracies and half truths. I guess I'm tired of the America bashing that's going on. I voted for the guy, and would again. The alternative was much worse. Nobody is lily white, but the American System is more right than wrong, and I'm proud of it. see below for my half cocked one liners and superfluous comments. Steve Spence You can argue all you like, but I can tell you, as an outside observer, that what Bush is doing seems misguided. I am no supporter of Saddam, but I think the proposed war is too fraught with the potential of unifying Moslem against Christian (and I consider myself neither...) Can't we prosecute the acts against America, ( Australia/England etc in Bali) as criminal acts, prosecute the perpetrators, not try to find tenuous links with countries where they may or may not exist, but we intend retaliating anyway? Why must innocent civilians die? ( so learn to hate Western society more?) Saddam at present is contained in his borders, so is no threat to Superpower of the US. I personally think the world should boycott American owned businesses, send US broke (Just like USSR) then the world may come back to reality. US 'diplomacy' seems lately to be aimed at merely supporting US supremecy. So, as you can see I am no supporter of Saddam Hussein, or GW Bush, or our own illustrious (misguided) PM, John Howard. regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hog fat and vegetarians?
Steve Spence writes: Why? They aren't eating it, just driving on it .. I don't believe there is any law that mandates notification of the original materials biodiesel is made from as long as it meets spec? ...The vegans wouldn't be against recycling would they? beats feeding it to other animals, ala mad cow. Most serious vegetarians and vegans I know are VERY concerned about origins. Good example is gelatin -- the cows are already dead, gelatin is definitely a BYPRODUCT, who should care? It's not like they're being killed FOR the gelatin.. But they do care, and so I occasionally find myself apologizing, both to my vegetarian friends as well as to the Pig God Himself, for the large percentage of baby back ribs in my fuel...:-) -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: hog fat and vegetarians?
I think I've said this before, but there's this really silly biodiesel bumper sticker running around these parts. It says drive vegetarian. And yet all of us drive with little puffs of barbeque smelling smoke coming out of our tailpipe. I know my fuel is only vegetarian when it comes from the junk food factory oil (cause they fry assorted starches, not meat like a fast food joint). When the oil comes from a neighborhood restaurant, there ain't no 'french fries' smell to it. Its a dead cow (in the form of whatever part of the beef fat leaked out of the wontons that got fried that oil... Or is it pork? Oh well, it isn't vegan, but it sure is free-gan)... mark Most serious vegetarians and vegans I know are VERY concerned about origins. Good example is gelatin -- the cows are already dead, gelatin is definitely a BYPRODUCT, who should care? It's not like they're being killed FOR the gelatin.. But they do care, and so I occasionally find myself apologizing, both to my vegetarian friends as well as to the Pig God Himself, for the large percentage of baby back ribs in my fuel...:-) -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Looking at the RESPONSE ... too all that's going on in the world. Was: PBS - The War Behind Closed Doors
I still think the UN is simply USING Bush. To make THEMSELVES (look like) the only way to peace. To make everyone say, h ... ah ohh that's why we NEED the UN. So they can hook up everyone under themselves make every President of every country reduced to nothing more than a senator of a global level government (Global level Senate /House of Representative ... like the State level and Federal level) Every Senator (President) hooked up under the Global level Senate?? Voila ... there you've got it A (one BIG) one-world government. But then again ... that's only my observation. Curtis Hi Curtis The big bugaboo over the dreaded one-world government - does that strike the same fear and loathing into the heart of anyone outside the US I wonder? Also the idea that the UN is some sinister force seeking power and domination - the UN? Seriously? What a damp squib - there are a lot of nice things about the UN, without which we'd all be much the poorer, and a lot of not-so-nice things too, but sinister? A huge series of over-funded and under-worked bureaucracies pretty much hog-tied by its own immense production of red-tape, fronted by a squabbling shop where a lot that could be useful gets vetoed anyway by the powers-that-be? On the other hand, do you think this current system of nations is ideal? I sure don't, I think it's pretty close to the worst of all worlds, neither one thing nor the other. Have you studied the history of how it all evolved, if that's quite the word? What a shambles. Do you think people really relate to their countries? I think they relate to their localities in a healthy way - communities, neighbourhoods: you know, the local soccer team. Beyond that, I doubt it - they have to be spun into it, flags waved under their noses and so on (I don't like flags, not to be trusted). And whipped up over some concocted crisis on a regular basis (like the current ongoing series of them for instance). What you get then isn't a true community spirit of good neighbourliness and goodwill, it's nationalism disguised as patriotism, not true patriotism - loving your country doesn't mean hating or despising other countries, but nationalism too often means exactly that. The spirit of nationality is a sour ferment of the new wine of democracy in the old bottles of tribalism. Yea verily. Instead of the dreaded one-world government (aarghhh! - we'll all be murdered in our beds!), why not give a thought to the global village? All it ever lacked was the Internet, and we've got that now. The global village got purloined and turned into corporate globalization, its exact opposite - *that's* your sinister one-world government, not the UN. We should take it back. I believe we are taking it back. I doubt the UN will mind much, but the corporations will. Regards Keith - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hakan, I rather like the concept of the inability to domesticate cultures. Although it's being attempted with great ferver everywhere. What was it that Chancellor Schroeder said the other day? Something to the effect of While it may only take one country to wage war, it will take the many nations of the UN to wage peace. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] hog fat and vegetarians?
Fuel made from animal by-products raises an interesting issue for vegan and vegetarians, does it not? --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net I keep seeing biofuels people these days saying fossil fuel is made out of dead dinosaurs. LOL! But if it were true would it bother the vegans and vegetarians? Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Ken, Maybe it is bad wording from an ignorant foreigner and in this case I have to apologize. For the rest I have to refer to my and others postings in the Biofuel archive, there are no real reason for me to repeat the discussion. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messagesearch?query=SUV I tried search on, http://archive.nnytech.net/ but it did not work. Hakan Not bad wording, certainly not ignorant. Here you go: ... Taken together, Ford's plans represent the broadest commitment so far by any automaker to address the safety and environmental drawbacks of sport utilities. The backdrop for the announcements is not just the uproar over fatalities involving Explorers that flip when their Firestone tires tear apart, but the rise in gasoline prices over the last year that has eaten into consumer confidence and helped slow the American economy. Currently, sport utilities are the biggest gas-guzzlers in the nation's passenger fleet, partly because they qualify for more lenient federal regulations than cars. They are also allowed to emit up to five-and-a-half times as much smog-causing gases as cars. Ford voluntarily builds its models to pollute as little as cars, a policy announced at the 1998 auto show here, but few automakers have followed suit; President Clinton a year ago ordered that all sport utilities meet the same pollution standards as cars by 2009. A few of the safety measures to be announced on Tuesday have been previously disclosed for one or two models, like anti-rollover devices and front-end designs that reduce damage to cars during collisions. These will now be used on all Ford sport utilities and pickups. Other measures involve broader, more sophisticated applications of technology now found on a few competitors' models. For example, Ford plans to install air-pressure sensors inside the tires of all sport utilities and pickups, a step General Motors took several years ago on some of its cars. Still other changes involve a shift in corporate philosophy, like making sport utility brakes as effective as car brakes - a sharp change for Ford, which strongly argued three years ago that there was no need to improve sport utility brakes. Brian O'Neill, the president of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, an insurer-financed group that seeks to reduce the cost of crash claims, said that Ford's plans were the clearest sign yet that the auto industry accepted that sport utilities posed different safety issues from cars. There's no question that there has been, belatedly, a recognition that there are safety issues with S.U.V.'s, both for their own occupants and for the occupants of the vehicles they hit, he said when told of Ford's plans. ... Priya Prasad, Ford's top safety researcher, said that the lower steel beams in the front ends of sport utilities and pickups, together with similar changes planned by other automakers, should save the lives of 1,000 motorists a year struck by these vehicles. Federal regulators say that the designs of sport utilities and pickups are causing 2,000 extra deaths a year. Mr. O'Neill cautioned that all such estimates rely on many assumptions, but said that the insurance industry's crash tests showed that lowering steel beams was the best remedy. From: Ford to Make Hybrid Explorers, The New York Times, January 9, 2001 http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/09/business/09AUTO.html ... For decades, automakers seeking to avoid tougher fuel economy standards have invoked the fiction that the bigger the car, the safer the passenger. As a result, most Americans take it on faith that the only way to be safe on the highway is to be driving a tank (or the next best thing, a Hummer). Bradsher shatters this myth and highlights the strange disconnect between the perception and the reality of SUVs. The occupant death rate in SUVs is 6 percent higher than it is for cars - 8 percent higher in the largest SUVs. The main reason is that SUVs carry a high risk of rollover; 62 percent of SUV deaths in 2000 occurred in rollover accidents. SUVs don't handle well, so drivers can't respond quickly when the car hits a stretch of uneven pavement or trips by scraping a guardrail. Even a small bump in the road is enough to flip an SUV traveling at high speed. On top of that, SUV roofs are not reinforced to protect the occupants against rollover; nor does the government require them to be. Because of their vehicles' size and four-wheel drive, SUV drivers tend to overestimate their own security, which prompts many to drive like maniacs, particularly in inclement weather. And SUV drivers - ever image-conscious and overconfident - seem to hate seat belts as much as they love talking on their cell phones while driving. Bradsher reports that four-fifths of those killed in roll-overs were not belted in, even though 75 percent of the general driving population now buckles up regularly. While failing to protect their occupants,
[biofuel] Re: hog fat and vegetarians?
... as opposed to biodiesel made out of 'recently dead herbivores'. Doesn't have quite the ring to it that 'dead dinosaurs' does... mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fuel made from animal by-products raises an interesting issue for vegan and vegetarians, does it not? --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net I keep seeing biofuels people these days saying fossil fuel is made out of dead dinosaurs. LOL! But if it were true would it bother the vegans and vegetarians? Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
