[biofuels-biz] Biodiesel Users' Conference, January 31/Feb 1, So. California
California Biodiesel Consumers' Conference Towards sustainable biodiesel for passenger car and small business B100 consumers in California January 31 and Feb 1 , 10am-5 pm Pitzer College, Claremont, CA More info coming soon at: www.veggieavenger.com/conference Email us: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** Join us for two intensive days of education, brainstorming, and groundwork around issues facing California passenger-car biodiesel consumers, and a vision for sustainable and homegrown biodiesel businesses to serve those consumers. Conference goals: - educating biodiesel advocates about the lesser-known challenges facing local producers, consumers, and distributors - forming a CA biodiesel consumers' organisation to provide a voice for B100 passenger car users and small business consumers of biodiesel, who are currently under-served by the biodiesel industry - to encourage small-scale, local biodiesel production and distribution - long-term action to make local biodiesel production more ecologically and socially sustainable than current practices Our mailing address: Biodiesel Consumers Conference c/oBiofuel Oasis, 2465 Fourth St Berkeley CA 94703 510-665 5509 for more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.veggieavenger.com/conference Day 1: `Lay of the Land: the Industry Today'. Day 1 presentations: -Emissions And You: the Good News About Diesel Engines (overview of emissions regulated by air quality agencies, cross-fuel comparisons of emissions and health effects from biodiesel and other conventional and alternative fuels, some background on the anti-diesel lobby and on California's restrictions on diesel passenger car importation) -Biodiesel 101 ·( an overview of biodiesel, health effects, production, energy inputs and lifecycle emissions, and sustainability issues within biofuels production in general) -The Industry: (an overview of commercial biodiesel, promising technology, the ASTM standards and quality control, industry practices, and biodiesel businesses operating in California.) Other topics addressed on Day 1 include: - a strategy discussion on working within existing structures such as the National Biodiesel Board or petroleum distributors, versus developing parallel structures (local distributorships not linked to petroleum business, forming an alternative to the NBB) - issues unique to California: CARB, state-level government incentives and opportunities, CDFA labeling and B100, restrictions on diesel car imports into California, the Integrated Energy Policy Report and AB 2076, local campaigns involving zoning and other regulations for small-scale distributors, coops, etc. Day 2: Where To Go From Here? Local Campaigns Day 2 will be a self-guided session with breakout sessions for different topics and campaigns you may be interested in working on. Topics may include : -Strategy session for a legal challenge to the prohibitively expensive EPA registration of biodiesel producers -Strategy for those attending the National Biodiesel Board convention later that week -Long-range planning for a California biodiesel sustainability certification committee, and the logistics of sending people from this work group to the commercial Biodiesel Production Workshops in Iowa in March -State-level policy and lobbying -A discussion for potential small producers in California -A project to write new California-specific, B100-specific, sustainability-oriented educational materials -a discussion of advocacy and promotion- how do you do it? Whom do you target? -A short brainstorming session on the logistics of a California Biodiesel Consumers Association, in preparation for our first meeting in March in the Bay Area -a discussion around California's restriction on diesel passenger vehicle imports -a discussion around promoting the use of ultra-low-sulfur diesel in biodiesel blends sold commercially Conference Logistics: We strongly encourage attendees to come for both days. There will be a pre-conference reading packet and a survey available by mail and email 10 days before the event. Please sign up at our website- coming soon at www.veggieavenger.com/conference Conference cost: $80 donation at the door, no one turned away for lack of funds. If you would like to support our work, additional conference donations accepted by mail to treasurer: Meleana Judd, 1431 16th Ave, San Francisco CA 94122 There will be bus shuttles from the SF Bay Area and from Chico. Registration information, a survey, suggested reading, travel information, local accommodations, and more will be found on our webpage shortly at www.veggieavenger.com/conference For more information email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] While this conference stresses California organizing, people from out-of-state biodiesel projects are all invited! Please see our upcoming website for registration information- we'd like to know about your work elsewhere The Background:
[biofuels-biz] more folks upset with small producer NBB challenges
go read this, now, especially the commentary at the end: http://www.biofuels.coop/blog/archives/15.html This story summarises the small grassroots producer problem in the US in a nutshell. mark Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuels-biz/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: More Conflict Over Oil, Indigenous Rights
In Columbia, union members and people who work for Coke are being killed by the paramilitary there. While the people are getting killed, Coke is saying they are not responcible for what is going on there. The people there are bringing a lawsuit against Coke in Florida. It is one of the tort laws that the suit is being brought under. Can you guess why Bush thinks that the tort laws need to be reform? www.killercoke.org Jeff From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ecuador: More Conflict Over Oil, Indigenous Rights See also: http://www.amazonwatch.org/amazon/EC/toxico/index.php?page_number=99 Amazon Watch - In the Amazon - Ecuador The Chevron-Texaco Toxic Legacy http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/75273/1/ OneWorld US - Ecuador: More Conflict Over Oil, Indigenous Rights Amazon Watch On the eve of an historic march to protest plans for oil extraction on their sacred homeland and denounce the series of human rights violations that their community endured over the last year, members of the Kichwa nationality from Sarayacu were violently attacked and detained last Thursday by pro-oil forces, while en route to Puyo, the nearest city and site of the march. Sarayacu, a community of approximately 1,500 has been waging an unprecedented nonviolent campaign of resistance to plans by the Argentinean oil company CGC, Houston-based Burlington Resources, and UK Perenco to explore for oil in their territory. Traveling up the Río Bobonaza by canoe, some 120 Sarayacu men, women, and children were stopped by members of the Canelos Kichwa community upriver, employed by CGC. Warning shots were fired at members of Sarayacu and dozens were detained by force. Several were able to escape into the forest, where they hid and spent three days lost until they found their way to the closest town. The others were not as fortunate. While detained, men and women leaders of Sarayacu, including the former president of the community, were attacked during the night with wooden clubs, stones and machetes. Several suffered serious wounds (for photo documentation, go to: www.sarayacu.com). These leaders were eventually released and transported to the local hospital in Puyo. Despite the repressive measures to keep the Sarayacu and their allies from marching, the next day some 1,000 leaders from throughout the Ecuadorian Amazon joined them in the March for Peace and in Defense of the Collective Rights of all Nationalities of the Amazon. Nobody can impede us from defending our Mother Earth, said one community representative. Against the backdrop of the landmark trial of ChevronTexaco in Ecuadorian courts for environmental crimes in the country's northern rainforest, the opposition of Sarayacu has become a flashpoint for the oil industry in Ecuador, as well as the Ecuadorian government, which plans to open the remaining pristine rainforests of the Southern Ecuadorian Amazon to oil companies. The sustained and adamant opposition of Sarayacu, combined with a new alliance of all five indigenous nationalities on the front lines of the countrys expanding oil frontier reflects a powerful growing movement of indigenous resistance to resource extraction and towards a true indigenous autonomy and greater corporate accountability. Amazon Watch urges concerned readers to send a letter of protest to Ecuadorian authorities. A sample letter can be found at Sarayacu.com. Also, read New York Times coverage of the battle between oil companies and indigenous peoples in Ecuador. Seeking Balance: Growth vs. Culture in Amazon December 10, 2003 New York Times by JUAN FORERO PUMPUENTSA, Ecuador - As international energy companies move into the Amazon basin to tap some of the last untouched oil and natural gas reserves, more and more natives are fighting to keep them out. Oil workers and contractors have been kidnapped, company officials say. Equipment has been vandalized. Protests, injunctions and lawsuits are piling up as Indian groups grow increasingly savvy in their cooperation with environmentalists. The governments may increasingly regard the Amazon as an engine for economic growth, but native groups are struggling to balance development with the desire to preserve a nearly primordial way of life. Let the military come in, because we will defend to the last, said Medardo anti, a leader of Kichwa Indians in an unspoiled jungle region that has been apped for oil exploration in Ecuador, where the dispute is most contentious. As long as we live here, we will defend our rights. How this struggle plays out will determine whether Amazon resources become a critical part of Latin America's development and an important component of the American strategy to diversify energy supplies beyond the Middle East. Latin America already provides more oil to the United States than the Middle East does. Plans for new oil and gas fields are speeding ahead, pushed by companies from as far afield
[biofuel] Re: Scientists Say Human Impact on Climate Change Certain
Rush Limbaugh said that global warming was a myth. I wonder how much dope he had in his body when he said that. Jeff From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Scientists Say Human Impact on Climate Change Certain http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131subid=192contentid=252267 NDOL: DLC | New Dem Daily | December 17, 2003 Scientists Say Human Impact on Climate Change Certain The American Geophysical Union, the world's largest organization of earth, ocean, and climate scientists, has always been extremely cautious in interpreting the growing evidence that human activities -- especially carbon dioxide emissions from automobiles and utility plants -- are a major contributor to global climate change. Indeed, American conservatives often distort AGU's let's-see-all-the-evidence approach into support for their position that the whole global warming controversy is some sort of environmentalist hoax. But yesterday AGU issued a strongly worded statement -- adopted unanimously by a special panel convened for that purpose -- concluding that human activities are increasingly altering the Earth's climate. The statement also calls for actions to reduce the harmful effects of global climate change through decreased human influences (e.g., slowing greenhouse gas emissions, improving land management practices), technological advancement (e.g., removing carbon from the atmosphere), and finding ways for communities to adapt and become resilient to extreme events. As The Wall Street Journal reported, The scientific committee that drafted the statement includes John Christy, a University of Alabama, Huntsville, climatologist who has often sided with warming skeptics in the past. But scientific dissent now increasingly involves details of the warming phenomenon, not the basic result that man-made gas emissions are a probably cause of the warming trend. In an interview with National Public Radio today, Christy said it was scientifically inconceivable that natural influences are solely responsible for climate change. It will be interesting to see if the Republican politicians who like to quote Christy are paying attention. Just last week, a group of conservative Members of Congress led by Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) contributed to the world-wide impression that the Bush administration and its supporters are dangerously irresponsible on this subject, holding a press conference outside a United Nations conference on global climate change in Milan to air their claims that the science is flawed; it is anything but certain. At some point, preferably right now, Republicans need to stop embarrassing their country with this kind of ignorant hokum. If AGU's scientific conclusions bear repeating, so, too, does its call for action before climate change potentially becomes catastrophic. At a minimum, the administration should risk upsetting its flat-earth fans in the GOP base by agreeing to restart the international negotiations on climate change that it torpedoed as one of George W. Bush's first actions in foreign relations. And both Congress and the administration need to get serious about limiting our own greenhouse gas emissions, preferably through a cap-and-trade system that will impose mandatory limits while encouraging market means to reach them. This kind of system could avoid the false choice between economic growth and environmental improvement that conservatives so often cite, by stimulating the development of new clean technologies that would give the U.S. a big comparative advantage in one of the global economy's fastest growing sectors. The time for denial on global climate change is long over. The time for action is now. http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1551355 NPR : Science Group Issues Climate Change Warning Science Group Issues Climate Change Warning Morning Edition audio Dec. 17, 2003 The American Geophysical Union, the world's largest organization of earth scientists, issues a consensus statement linking human activity to unprecedented climate changes that present cause for concern. The statement follows a debate in Congress in which some senators downplayed or even denied the existence of global warming. NPR's Richard Harris reports http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/policy/climate_change_position.html Human Impacts on Climate Human Impacts on Climate Adopted by Council December, 2003 Human activities are increasingly altering the Earth's climate. These effects add to natural influences that have been present over Earth's history. Scientific evidence strongly indicates that natural influences cannot explain the rapid increase in global near-surface temperatures observed during the second half of the 20th century. Human impacts on the climate system include increasing concentrations of atmospheric greenhouse gases (e.g., carbon dioxide, chlorofluorocarbons and their substitutes, methane, nitrous oxide, etc.), air pollution,
[biofuel] Re: Nothing ... it's people Was: What's wrong with corporations?
Anyone who would serve a person 160 degree coffee in an uninsulated paper cup deserves to be sued. Normal people serve and drink coffee in cups that are designed to hold hot liquids. Cheap people try to serve hot coffee in uninsulated paper cups and something needs to be done about that. It is because of greed over pennies that law suit happen. While it may seem frivolous, there was a reason for it. Have you notice that ever since that lawsuit that coffee is served in insulated cups, and that people who still serve coffee in paper cups now provide a jacket of insulation to put over the cup? Jeff From: csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Nothing ... it's peopleWas: What's wrong with corporations? If I may disagree with the entire group, I disagree with the supposition that Corporations are the problem. To me, PEOPLE are the problem. Corporations are merely vehicles for people to screw up the enviroment . step all over human rights blah blah blah. Think of it like the argument about banning SUV's ... or GUNS ... or the like. Do SUV's in-and-of-themselves kill?? NO!! Do guns?? NO!! People kill. And the same thing goes for Corporations. Currently, I'm involved in a Corporation and know VERY well what it's for. It's for protection. But not just any-'ol protection ... but against so called FRIVILOUS law-suits. The good 'ol McDonaldland Coffee Cup lawsuit ... comes to mind. A Corporation is there to make sure that such a lawsuit on the job REMAINS ON THE JOB.And stays away. ... from suing my personal life my house ... my car ... and so on. Suing my family down to zero. So fine yeah ... some Corporations do do some bad things. But the answer is NOT about removing Corporate liability protection. All that'll happen is that the true offenders will merely find another weapon to do there dirty deeds ... and people like me ... good people helping in running good, responsible Corporations will simply get flushed down the toilet. Curtis - Make her feel special this coming holiday season with flowers www.flowerson55.com - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/pages/corporations.html Corporate Watch What's wrong with corporations? Corporations are persistent offenders What can we do about it? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: opinions on alaska forest situation?
There has been talk of a bill to thin forest of fire hazards. I have a suspicion it would be like the salvage rider on wood that has blown down. However, if there was a way to convert underbrush, such as vine maple into fuel, it would be a very good thing. I wish some research would go into that. The salvage rider was misused, bad. A tree would blow over. A timber company would want to harvest that tree. They would cut down fifty thousand trees to finance the cost of a road to the tree. Then they would cut down another fifty thousand trees to make it cost effective to harvest the tree. Our military is used to keep regions stable that we get oil from. That means the cost of gas we pay at the pump is subsidize by US tax payers. If we would spend tax dollars on research into seeing how underbrush could be converted into fuel, it would save tax dollars in the long run and we would have a better environment and a less fossil fuel dependent country. Jeff From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: opinions on alaska forest situation? On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:17:17 -0600, you wrote: First off, I generally consider myself an environmentalist. I am also a realist (which a lot of environmentalists don't tend to be). We need oil. There is oil in alaska. We should drill the oil. You are talking about an incrdibly small section of land when you look at the whole picture. The clinton era plan (no raods through the entire region) was a POOR one. I think the far better option would be no vehicular off road tarvel.the four wheelers and off roaders stay at home (my go, you might have to WALK through the woods). Well, I think we've talked about drilling in the past, Hakan, myself, Keith, others, perhaps yourself as well, and it's a topic worth going over the pros and cons, and I think there's less knee-jerk anti-drilling sentiment here than one might guess. But just to be clear, the article I referenced was about recent rulings concerning forestry and tree-harvesting, not oil-drilling. To be sure there would seem to be at least a little connection (geographically, environmentally, but basically, the question in this case was about harvesting wood. Since wood can be used as a biofuel (although primarily at present I guess it's used for other things) I also thought there's slightly more relevance to this. As I mentioned to Keith in private email, it's amazing to me that so much of the U.S. the last few summers seems to wring its hands over the terrible forest fires (Outgoing governor Davis attempting to say this past summer's California fires were arguably the worst natural disaster in the state's history? I don't recall precisely what the claim was) while ignoring that the wood burns because it has so much stored energy and, in moderation, it could be a supplier of that energy for productive purposes rather than a constant threat. There is major benifit to drilling for oilin alaska, and very few drawbacks. I think part of the problem is that people have trouble conceptualizing 300,000 acres out of 16.8 million. that is like opening a 5 lb bag of sugar and taking out a teaspoon. I think a lot of environmental groups need to bring their views more into check with reality. When they take unrealistic views of things, it costs them credibility on issues where they actually have a chance to make a difference. - Original Message - From: murdoch To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: [biofuel] opinions on alaska forest situation? http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1224tongass24.html I'm of the view that there must be some balanced answer to exploitation of our natural resources that does not go for the too-easy answer of use-nothing do-nothing all-exploitation is bad. I'm trying to avoid ankle-biting criticisms of this or that political administration (Bush, Clinton, whoever), so I want to give credit where it's due. If credit is due for a decent policy proposal in the face of a sort of dogmatic enviro opposition that in this case may not be in the right, then I'd like to consider giving it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hello Friends
I know that I am very new to this group. I have enjoyed the post that I have read from this group. If you don't mind, I would like to ask a very big favor. Could some of you please send me some information on converting wood into fuel? If it is a book you want me to buy, that's ok. I would like some information, please. If you wanted to send it via private email, that would be find. I am very interested in how to make biodiesel and other biofuels. Any help would be appreciated. I would like to know how to make my own gas and diesel. I plan to make and build anything I need to make biofuels. That is a hint for any plans of any apparatus that can be use to make biofuels. Very Sincerely, Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
After looking at oil choices, we come to next attempt to buy time and protection of US energy interests. FAST DEVELOPMENT OF COAL AND NUCLEAR. This is also a high stake poker game, but would give US much more time than any oil route. It is not long term solutions, but will give energy corporations and interests a firm grip on future solutions. We already know that US electricity production could be covered this century by coal and nuclear and if it also could cover transportation, it would also give a degree of oil independence. To pull this off, it is absolutely necessary to solve fuel source for transportation. What is the nearly only fuel alternative, based on abundant electricity or coal production. HYDROGEN It will not be produced cleanly, so legal obstacles like clean air act etc. must be softened enough to allow it. The sacrifices in human lifes. must also be swept under the carpet. It is however some clear problems around it and that is to produce safe and affordable vehicles for hydrogen. The jury is still out on the possibilities for this to happen. Russia who have larger reserves of oil and less use, can go biofuel/wind/solar instead of the coal reserves, since they could refrain from using coal reserves. EU that do not have larger coal reserves, must take an aggressive route on biofuels/wind/solar. None of them have to put the eggs in the Hydrogen basket. They already have a significant better fuel economy for transport and political support for further improvements. The same goes for the acceptance of energy conservation. The also have the benefits of that a commitment to cleaner environment have popular support, at the same time as it helps the alternative non fossil biofuel/wind/solar economy. US is boxed into a very unique situation and it will take a lot of sacrifices to get out of that one. Hakan At 23:50 26/12/2003, you wrote: Small problem, I do not want to destroy this illusion of that US have grand choices, but the real ones are, US needs oil and it is urgent, sorry but US only have oil for 10 years and the absolutely best that Alaska etc. can give is 5 additional years and NG is in similar or worse situation from 7 years to around 12 years. This if US want to show the world how independent they are and do not want to get oil from foreign soil. So what can US do, a. Try to show some restraint in the use of oil, by drastic conservation. b. Get in place drastic measurements to use alternative energy resources. c. Drill in Alaska and all possible US places, but it is not plenty to go around. d. Import more oil from Middle East. e. Get firm control of 25% of the worlds oil reserves that US are using. Only need to occupy a country like Saudi Arabia or Iraq and keep it long enough to put systems in place that guarantee future oil deliveries. So what is done about it. a. Do not want to, very unpopular if it is too radical and the party would lose the presidency. Any sign of desperation on this point, would also unveil the real situation. b. Do not want to, the US oil industry would lose its dominant position and control of the energy markets, if diverse production is allowed. c. Of course, it will give some valuable time for US energy interests to develop and solidify control of future energy solutions. d. Too insecure, with the growing demands from the rest of the world the prices will be too high and it is not sure that US can afford to maintain its role as the world leading industrial nation. Economical numbers show a disturbing weakening of US as the leading industrial nation. The most reliable supplier, Saudi Arabia, have probably over stated their reserves. e. First phases are implemented, but it is not sure that it is workable on either short, medium or long term and is already turning into a small night mare. What is the fall back if Iraq fails? I think that Bush is doing what he think is best about the problem and this is his duty as US president. He chose the way of conflicts and attempt to world domination by 4% of the worlds population. If US cannot pull this off and I belive not, it is in a worse situation than it was before Bush and he have united the world against US. A very difficult situation for US and the next president. Especially since it is so much democratic resistance over such a small thing as developing Alaska. It is also disturbing, that the 85% of the world that we call developing countries seems to have unrealistic demands of a larger share of the pie and higher living standards, with more energy use. Hakan At 20:47 26/12/2003, you wrote: You are doing the same thing, answering things I did not say. I said the US needs oil. I did not say we needed to reduce our foreign dependency on oil, I did not say anything about foreign terrorists. I made a simple, factual statement. I will make it again, I will put it in all caps, so you can respond to the statement, not to your imagined implications. THE US NEEDS
[biofuel] California Grassroots Biodiesel Users' Conference, Jan 31/Feb 1
California Biodiesel Consumers Conference Towards sustainable biodiesel for passenger car and small business B100 consumers in California January 31 and Feb 1 , 10am-5 pm Pitzer College, Claremont, CA More info coming soon at: www.veggieavenger.com/conference Email us: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** Join us for two intensive days of education, brainstorming, and groundwork around issues facing California passenger-car biodiesel consumers, and a vision for sustainable and homegrown biodiesel businesses to serve those consumers. Conference goals: - educating biodiesel advocates about the lesser-known challenges facing local producers, consumers, and distributors - forming a CA biodiesel consumers organisation to provide a voice for B100 passenger car users and small business consumers of biodiesel, who are currently under-served by the biodiesel industry - to encourage small-scale, local biodiesel production and distribution - long-term action to make local biodiesel production more ecologically and socially sustainable than current practices Our mailing address: Biodiesel Consumers Conference c/oBiofuel Oasis, 2465 Fourth St Berkeley CA 94703 510-665 5509 for more info: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.veggieavenger.com/conference Day 1: Lay of the Land: the Industry Today. Day 1 presentations: -Emissions And You: the Good News About Diesel Engines (overview of emissions regulated by air quality agencies, cross-fuel comparisons of emissions and health effects from biodiesel and other conventional and alternative fuels, some background on the anti-diesel lobby and on California's restrictions on diesel passenger car importation) -Biodiesel 101 ( an overview of biodiesel, health effects, production, energy inputs and lifecycle emissions, and sustainability issues within biofuels production in general) -The Industry: (an overview of commercial biodiesel, promising technology, the ASTM standards and quality control, industry practices, and biodiesel businesses operating in California.) Other topics addressed on Day 1 include: - a strategy discussion on working within existing structures such as the National Biodiesel Board or petroleum distributors, versus developing parallel structures (local distributorships not linked to petroleum business, forming an alternative to the NBB) - issues unique to California: CARB, state-level government incentives and opportunities, CDFA labeling and B100, restrictions on diesel car imports into California, the Integrated Energy Policy Report and AB 2076, local campaigns involving zoning and other regulations for small-scale distributors, coops, etc. Day 2: Where To Go From Here? Local Campaigns Day 2 will be a self-guided session with breakout sessions for different topics and campaigns you may be interested in working on. Topics may include : -Strategy session for a legal challenge to the prohibitively expensive EPA registration of biodiesel producers -Strategy for those attending the National Biodiesel Board convention later that week -Long-range planning for a California biodiesel sustainability certification committee, and the logistics of sending people from this work group to the commercial Biodiesel Production Workshops in Iowa in March -State-level policy and lobbying -A discussion for potential small producers in California -A project to write new California-specific, B100-specific, sustainability-oriented educational materials -a discussion of advocacy and promotion- how do you do it? Whom do you target? -A short brainstorming session on the logistics of a California Biodiesel Consumers Association, in preparation for our first meeting in March in the Bay Area -a discussion around Californias restriction on diesel passenger vehicle imports -a discussion around promoting the use of ultra-low-sulfur diesel in biodiesel blends sold commercially Conference Logistics: We strongly encourage attendees to come for both days. There will be a pre-conference reading packet and a survey available by mail and email 10 days before the event. Please sign up at our website- coming soon at www.veggieavenger.com/conference Conference cost: $80 donation at the door, no one turned away for lack of funds. If you would like to support our work, additional conference donations accepted by mail to treasurer: Meleana Judd, 1431 16th Ave, San Francisco CA 94122 There will be bus shuttles from the SF Bay Area and from Chico. Registration information, a survey, suggested reading, travel information, local accommodations, and more will be found on our webpage shortly at www.veggieavenger.com/conference For more information email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] While this conference stresses California organizing, people from out-of-state biodiesel projects are all
[biofuel] Re: Brittle Power
Keith, And all others, I did not mean to offend any one. I agree, (as an an American) that the Americans have a VERY slanted view of the world. Most of this comes from our media, which we cannot do anything about because it is controlled by 'big money' and political forces. My statement on listening to shortwave is founded in fact: England slants news in whatever way it wishes, as does Australia, Germany, Italy, France, Japan, China (BOTH), etc. The only way to actually find the truth is through education, not taking what each government puts out through the propoganda resources. I am afraid that My, American government may cause a rift in the world community that cannot be repaired - to our demise. Thankyou for your time. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... and China and India Pierre --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, doug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is only a matter of time until Europe flexes its economic might, ... Doug How come nobody mentions Japan? We're really talking about flexing economic might politically, and while Japan shares economic leadership with the US and the EU, geopolitically it's nowhere at all. It doesn't appear to have anything you could call a foreign policy. These are quite interesting papers: Japan and the End of Cheap Oil http://www9.ocn.ne.jp/~aslan/nije.htm http://www9.ocn.ne.jp/~aslan/rwilcox.htm United States Militarism, Global Instability and Environmental Destruction See: 3. Environmental impacts: The case of Japan http://www9.ocn.ne.jp/~aslan/rwilcox.htm#3 Also: http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_44/b3705125.htm Japan Explained Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
Hakan Falk wrote: FAST DEVELOPMENT OF COAL AND NUCLEAR. This is also a high stake poker game, but would give US much more time than any oil route. A lot of intelligent people advocate this approach. Personally, it makes me feel uneasy and it doesn't really address the fundamental problem of flagrant energy wastage we've discussed at length in this forum. This afternoon on a trip to Seattle, I shook my head at the sheer number of massive, large displacement vehicles occupied by single drivers on the roads in my country. We sat in traffic for long periods of time with engines idling. (All because my mother sent a huge can of popcorn to us from Witchita, Kansas that Fed Ex wouldn't deliver across the border. . . Had I known what it was, I would have told Fed Ex to send it back!) There is simply too much traffic. Our vehicles are larger than they often need to be. Goods are transported over vast distances on the highway. (Do we really need popcorn from Kansas???) All of this contributes to pollution and resource depletion. We need a fundamental societal restructuring. If we do not drastically cut our energy use and change the paradigm upon which our culture functions, we are in for BIG trouble in the not too distant future. Once the cheap energy system upon which our society is predicated begins to crumble, an economic disaster will follow. This is already happening with natural gas. (Our bill this last month was $38 higher than the bill for the same month last year, and we live in a new, very well insulated house!) My father in law and I have argued this for a long time, and now that the evidence is slanting in my favor, he's STILL in denial! (By the way, HIS natural gas bill was $100 higher than last year's bill, and my mother in law thinks something is wrong with her brand new furnace!) We already know that US electricity production could be covered this century by coal Once we let that djinni out of the bottle, the r/p values for coal will decline rapidly. Open pit coal mining is also quite damaging to the environment. On September 1, 1999 NPR had a feature on coal mining in the Virginia that is seriously ruining property and homes. and nuclear and if it also could cover transportation, it would also give a degree of oil independence. I have read about a few companies that are working on fuel synthesis from sequestered carbon dioxide and hydrogen derived from steam. This process requires significant heat, which can be supplied by nuclear or concentrated solar energy. Of all the solar related technologies out there right now, I'm most enthusiastic about concentrated solar for heat because it represents ready to use technology, and much of what we actually use energy to do for us relates directly to our need for heat; either in domestic or industrial processes. HYDROGEN It will not be produced cleanly, so legal obstacles like clean air act etc. must be softened enough to allow it. The sacrifices in human lifes. must also be swept under the carpet. It is however some clear problems around it and that is to produce safe and affordable vehicles for hydrogen. The jury is still out on the possibilities for this to happen. I'm convinced that solar hydrogen has a place, provided that two things occur. First, we must have VERY CHEAP electricity--the kind that can be obtained with concentrated photovoltaics in high insolation areas. Secondly, it should only be used as a carrier to extend the range of hybrid electrics. Serious exergy issues mitigate against electrolytic hydrogen, and its low density cripples any application beyond local use. But in certain circumstances I can envision hydrogen as a viable energy carrier. Also, there are many ways to produce hydrogen. Electrolysis is probably the easiest. However, it's probably not the smartest. . . The same goes for the acceptance of energy conservation. The also have the benefits of that a commitment to cleaner environment have popular support, at the same time as it helps the alternative non fossil biofuel/wind/solar economy. I wish I could share the optimism you and Keith have expressed about this. Listening to many of my countrymen speak on these issues, I'm convinced that the all American solution to this problem will involve more bombing and bloodshed. However, I saw a bumper sticker today that read: Support regime change in America. Vote! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or
RE: [biofuel] ETHANOL AS RENEWABLE ENERGY SOLUTION
Dear Hakan: Since I regard you as a respected authority in energy matters, I would like to present the following scenario for your comment: Subject: Fuel ethanol 1- In Colombia we can produce sugar cane crops equivalent to 240 MT cane/Ha/year with total sugar content of 22% in juice. 2- The above stated yield translates into around 20,000 (twenty thousand liters ethanol/Ha/Year 3- 20,000 liter ethanol = 5,291 gallons ethanol/Ha/year 4- 5,291 gallons ethanol = 3,527 gallons gasoline in BTU's content @ 76,000 BTU Gal Ethanol Vs. 114,000 BTU Gal for gasoline 5- 3,527 Gals gasoline = 84 barrels gasoline/Ha/Year By improving the present sugar cane yields around the world we might find a substantial contribution to a sustainable source of energy to power cars, trucks, tractors, locomotives and what-have-you. Could you review the numbers and give us your opinion? I may add, we have the technology to increase sugar cane yields everywhere in the world...It has been proven in Colombia during the last decade, and it is applicable around the world with equal success, provided irrigation is available. Otherwise, lower yields/Ha would be expected. Thanks in advance for your review and comments. Best regards and a wonderful 2004, Luis R. Calzadilla VP Operations Fundacin Sugar Cane Research Org. Cali, Colombia Tel (572) 557-0627 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
Hi Robert, US have both capacity and shown in the past that things can happen quickly, but this time it will be very difficult. It would need a regime change and not only that, the new regime would need to understand what has to be done. It is too serious to be subject to the normal lobbying, corporate and political interests. I am not that optimistic about US, at least not without very serious harm have been done to US and the world. This is maybe the most serious draw back of democracies. It is difficult to get painful cures in place and people are often told that the problems are less than they are. I think that you are right, it need fundamental changes and the signs are not good. It is many things that can be done better, but the search for a golden bullet is very damaging. US starts to be a victim of its own propaganda. I said once on the list that US was a technology leader, without thinking too much, I am also in some instances falling for it. The list immediately and rightfully corrected me, US is not a leader in innovations and has never been. The danger is that the world might rely on US to find the golden bullet to energy crises. I belive like you, that it will be a lot of bullets flying around, but not of the golden type. Any kind of energy solutions must be easy and world inclusive, simple, repeatable and available for all. That is why I am somewhat skeptical to hydrogen and cannot see a fit. My description of the likely route of US, coal and nuclear, did in any way meant that I recommended it. On the contrary, US will in this process hurt the whole world and maybe most of the 4% that lives in US also. Maybe a massive cloning of Keith is a necessary action. -:)) Seriously, the promotion and spreading of information is the most valuable direct action that all of us can participate in. Sometimes I am accused of being too heavy, cannot understand why. LOL Hakan At 04:41 27/12/2003, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: FAST DEVELOPMENT OF COAL AND NUCLEAR. This is also a high stake poker game, but would give US much more time than any oil route. A lot of intelligent people advocate this approach. Personally, it makes me feel uneasy and it doesn't really address the fundamental problem of flagrant energy wastage we've discussed at length in this forum. This afternoon on a trip to Seattle, I shook my head at the sheer number of massive, large displacement vehicles occupied by single drivers on the roads in my country. We sat in traffic for long periods of time with engines idling. (All because my mother sent a huge can of popcorn to us from Witchita, Kansas that Fed Ex wouldn't deliver across the border. . . Had I known what it was, I would have told Fed Ex to send it back!) There is simply too much traffic. Our vehicles are larger than they often need to be. Goods are transported over vast distances on the highway. (Do we really need popcorn from Kansas???) All of this contributes to pollution and resource depletion. We need a fundamental societal restructuring. If we do not drastically cut our energy use and change the paradigm upon which our culture functions, we are in for BIG trouble in the not too distant future. Once the cheap energy system upon which our society is predicated begins to crumble, an economic disaster will follow. This is already happening with natural gas. (Our bill this last month was $38 higher than the bill for the same month last year, and we live in a new, very well insulated house!) My father in law and I have argued this for a long time, and now that the evidence is slanting in my favor, he's STILL in denial! (By the way, HIS natural gas bill was $100 higher than last year's bill, and my mother in law thinks something is wrong with her brand new furnace!) We already know that US electricity production could be covered this century by coal Once we let that djinni out of the bottle, the r/p values for coal will decline rapidly. Open pit coal mining is also quite damaging to the environment. On September 1, 1999 NPR had a feature on coal mining in the Virginia that is seriously ruining property and homes. and nuclear and if it also could cover transportation, it would also give a degree of oil independence. I have read about a few companies that are working on fuel synthesis from sequestered carbon dioxide and hydrogen derived from steam. This process requires significant heat, which can be supplied by nuclear or concentrated solar energy. Of all the solar related technologies out there right now, I'm most enthusiastic about concentrated solar for heat because it represents ready to use technology, and much of what we actually use energy to do for us relates directly to our need for heat; either in domestic or industrial processes. HYDROGEN It will not be produced cleanly, so legal obstacles like clean air act etc. must be softened enough to allow it. The
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 23:35, Hakan Falk wrote: Hi Robert, US have both capacity and shown in the past that things can happen quickly, but this time it will be very difficult. It would need a regime change and not only that, the new regime would need to understand what has to be done. It is too serious to be subject to the normal lobbying, corporate and political interests. I am not that optimistic about US, at least not without very serious harm have been done to US and the world. This is maybe the most serious draw back of democracies. It is difficult to get painful cures in place and people are often told that the problems are less than they are. I think that you are right, it need fundamental changes and the signs are not good. It is many things that can be done better, but the search for a golden bullet is very damaging. US starts to be a victim of its own propaganda. I said once on the list that US was a technology leader, without thinking too much, I am also in some instances falling for it. The list immediately and rightfully corrected me, US is not a leader in innovations and has never been. This is actually not true, the U.S has been a leader. However, this status is in the process of moving around and spreading out to the rest of the world. Currently, I believe no one country can claim this title anymore. Please don't label the U.S as evil, or even solely evil. There isn't one country on this earth that is innocent, or good for the common folk. All countries are controlled by the wealthy. However, the political process in the U.S, has a chance to change as its still democratic. Just because you don't like the current elected officals, doesn't mean that the process doesn't work. Country bashing solves nothing. Pondering what might be done with technologies that are currently king (ie coal,oil,nuclear) is fun debating, but gets nothing done. What will get something done, is to work on making solar and wind power economically workable. Instead of argueing about it, develope your idea, and market it. Consider this, Edison was king of electricity for a short time. His DC power system ruled, yet it had many drawbacks. Then an underdog, Tesla, came along. And after being rejected by Edison, found a backer (westinghouse) and showed up Edison's DC system to the point where we all now use AC. DC ruled for a while,but its defects were its own greatest enemy. I believe that the same applies to coal,oil, and nuclear. Yep its a hard to fight battle, but, its win-able. If we can just stop trying to tell the rest of the people in the world how wrong they are( for using oil etc.) and simply offer a better way they can buy and enjoy, they'll buy it. The danger is that the world might rely on US to find the golden bullet to energy crises. I belive like you, that it will be a lot of bullets flying around, but not of the golden type. Any kind of energy solutions must be easy and world inclusive, simple, repeatable and available for all. That is why I am somewhat skeptical to hydrogen and cannot see a fit. My description of the likely route of US, coal and nuclear, did in any way meant that I recommended it. On the contrary, US will in this process hurt the whole world and maybe most of the 4% that lives in US also. Maybe a massive cloning of Keith is a necessary action. -:)) Seriously, the promotion and spreading of information is the most valuable direct action that all of us can participate in. Sometimes I am accused of being too heavy, cannot understand why. LOL Hakan At 04:41 27/12/2003, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: FAST DEVELOPMENT OF COAL AND NUCLEAR. This is also a high stake poker game, but would give US much more time than any oil route. A lot of intelligent people advocate this approach. Personally, it makes me feel uneasy and it doesn't really address the fundamental problem of flagrant energy wastage we've discussed at length in this forum. This afternoon on a trip to Seattle, I shook my head at the sheer number of massive, large displacement vehicles occupied by single drivers on the roads in my country. We sat in traffic for long periods of time with engines idling. (All because my mother sent a huge can of popcorn to us from Witchita, Kansas that Fed Ex wouldn't deliver across the border. . . Had I known what it was, I would have told Fed Ex to send it back!) There is simply too much traffic. Our vehicles are larger than they often need to be. Goods are transported over vast distances on the highway. (Do we really need popcorn from Kansas???) All of this contributes to pollution and resource depletion. We need a fundamental societal restructuring. If we do not drastically cut our energy use and change the paradigm upon which our culture functions, we are in for BIG trouble in the not too distant future. Once the cheap energy system
[biofuel] Re: Nothing ... it's people Was: What's wrong with corporations?
Greetings, I have been surfing this list for some time and felt moved to weigh in here. I hope this is not too off topic, but I had some interest in the following statements. Mostly because it speaks to why should we be interested in making an environmental fuel at all, if there are no consequences. Consider the following statement: I know if there were no consequences to my actions, I would certainly act differently. We have a christmas party at work every year. I COULD get drunk, punch out my boss and take a leak in the punch bowl. Realistically, there would be no legal consequences (my boss is not the kind of guy to call the cops for something stupid like that). But I didn't do it. Why not? Because there would have been consequences. My coworkers would not have liked me anymore, life at work would have been much more difficult. It would have been socially unacceptable. The premise here is that without consequences, we are basically opportunists, and will seek our advantage without a care. This thinking is not correct, but it is popular and was called Lexus Talionus - law of the claw - by the political philosopher Hobbes... or Locke, I can't remember which. The basic assertion is that we exist in a state of nature where it is eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, and that the only way to contain this brutality is through the social contract of laws that insure a commodious life. This outdated and psychologically uninformed political philosophy is the basis for present day policymaking that intends to repress and contain what would otherwise be a dangerous population of potential miscreants. Laws from this orientation seek to make consequences as a deterrent against the dangerous nature that is within us. I agree with Kieth's assertions that people do many good and cooperative things all the time, and the suggestion that this is the norm. People want to help each other, which makes a lot of sense for obvious reasons. Research confirms what some of us don't already know: that people are naturally cooperative. How then do we account for those who profit at the expense of the commonweal?Well, the dictionary defines sociopathic personality n : a personality disorder characterized by amorality and lack of affect; capable of violent acts without guilt feelings. Consider recent corporate and US policy. Bottom line corporate thinking that shows no regard for social or environmental impact meets this criteria for a personality disorder. I think the unfortunate fact is that corporations promote this behavior set by protecting individuals from being held accountable for their actions. The US has even come to valorize sociopathy: if a CEO is morally unwilling to do what it takes the are replaced by one who will: observe the radical corporate machinations of Enron price fixing. This appears to be true of politicians as well: witness Bush Senior's strong efforts to overcome his wimp factor. The hero worship of the Gropenator in some circles is classic: Schwarzennager typifies this illness. Kurt Vonnegut asserts that it is a weakness in the species that women find this ruthlessness attractive, but that is off topic. The best of our knowledge shows that if people are raised with care and socialized well, they naturally cooperate and have a care. If people are raised badly, traumatized, or dispossessed, they turn to maladaptive behaviors, more and more commonplace and easily observed. This situation does require containment... but its so much easier, cheaper, and safer to just have a care to how people are treated to begin with!! Research in Attachment Theory (Bowlby / Ainsworth / Main) very clearly shows that people are primarily motivated by the desire to connect to other people: we are a social species. That is adaptive for survival. Stanley I. Greenspan, M.D. and Stuart G. Shanker, D.Phil. wrote a deep analysis of these themes in Toward a Psychology of Interdependency: A Framework for Understanding Global Conflict and Cooperation http://icdl.com/v6_2002_72dpi.pdf. It looks at why our current political decision making is misinformed by the premise that, left unchecked, we will all make a mess of things and therefore must be carefully monitored and controlled. It also offers a recognition of what has worked for millenia that is being undone by economic and political policy, and specifically points to how by promoting wellbeing worldwide, terrorism and sociopathy is nipped in the bud: cheaply and without the military. Happy, well adjusted people act naturally with others in mind. Thanks for an interesting discussion. Message: 3 Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 06:11:08 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Nothing ... it's peopleWas: What's wrong with corporations? More facts eh Greg? People are just too apathetic to care. Another fact with a certain provenance. Do you believe people are just naturally
[biofuel] RE: BD in the RP (Used to be '2 stroke lubricant test procedures')
Dear Alex: I have been waiting for your answer to my question for quite some time now so I will ask again. What is our governments stand on bd as fuel for diesel engines? I know they have been promoting it but could anyone with the proper know-how just legally setup shop and make it for commercial use? Or, do we have a situation with the PHILCOA similar to that of the US EPA making things difficult for small manufacturers? I have heard of companies like Senbel selling bd for fuel in agreement with the government? How are they accountable? Regards, Chris Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] more folk upset about their small producer challenges
http://www.biofuels.coop/blog/archives/15.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Slave or slave ... your choice Was: Nothing ... it's people
First of all, I can't read the archives. Everyone seems to forget I've got no internet access!! I'll read it next time I hit the library... But for the purpose of this reply, it is inconsequential and irrelevant. Reason: I agree with you 100% that many Large Corporations are what many people might consider ... ahem .. totally evil. They employ cheap chinese labor ... many times at the end of a whip or the barrel of a gun forcing 13 year-olds to solder circuit boards for their next day ration of food. They wield immense power... often times having sorcercers casting magickal spells (ie, PR agencies) on their payrolls. Paying them to put glassy eyes of duh .. on the public and making them (us) say ys massster ... and pay them (the Corporation) money ... from which to wield more power. Blah, blah, blah. The problem is Keith ... I agree with you there!! 100%!! I never said that the reality of mammoth Corporations don't exist. I simply disagree with your solution. To the problem ... of Mammoth Corporations. NOBODY seems to see what is going on nowadays in today's society. I'll condense it into one-liners below: Mammoth Corporations exercise their freedoms ... to rape and pillage ... and shackle third-worlder's into bondage. In other words, slavery. Public outcry. More Government Controls. Problem is, these rules are SWEEPING. They affect, not only Mammoth Corporations ... but also individual ... as well as small business Corps ...like mine. They SHACKLE us into THEIR rules ... the GOVERNMENT'S rules. Us ...us individuals and small Corps. Into a box. In other words, slavery. Corporate outcry. WE WANT MORE FREEDOM!!! So they get it. Back to rape and pillaging. In other words, slavery. Public outcry .. Does ANYBODY on this list see the pattern forming here?? Don't you see that what's going on here are simply TWO SLAVE MASTERS fighting for slaves?? I'm afraid I must again disagree with the entire group in this case.I agree that Mammoth Corporations are (blah, blah, blah). But anyone who agrees that more government controls are necessary are IMHO THEMSELVES ... spun. Spun ... by the GOVERNMENT SLAVE master perhaps ... PR agency wizards. Selling why being a Government Slave is better. I'm spun ... absolutely no disagreement there. I'm simply saying ... so are you. We need to step back. And see the Volleying of slaves going back and forth. Back and forth. Back and forth. And simply stop playing the game. As I have said earlier ... I probably am in disagreement with the ENTIRE group!! Putting flame suit on (LOL) In all sincerity, Curtis - Make her feel special this coming holiday season with flowers www.flowerson55.com - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wrong way round. Didn't you see this? http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30617/ 2003-12-24 The trouble is that there's nothing to require or force any corporation to be a good, responsible Corporation like yours. It's entirely up to them, and the way things are rigged and the way they work out, there's less and less to persuade them to take that course. If doing something like Bhopal suits their bottom line and they think they can get away with it, there's a good chance they'll do it, and that's almost certainly becoming more likely, not less. Look around you Curtis, the facts speak for themselves, rather loudly. As or tort reform, this is a typical version of the McDonald's coffee myth: Obviously, such are the consequences of the growing failure of people to take personal responsibility. You agree, right? They've got you all spun Curtis. I strongly suggest you spend some time reading this: Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
Hi, Although I agree that the US doesn't seem to be making much headway towards improvements in the energy situation, I think you are too pessimistic relative to the 'way out.' I believe the means are available. It is just a matter of bringing attention to the problem. Of having the political will at the top, and of having awareness of the problem in the population. I really don't think the average person has gotten the message that there is a problem. Maybe they have been told too many lies through the ages and they say, 'but, the cost is the same.' They won't believe it until the cost of NG, or oil, or electricity, or whatever goes up. I sincerely don't believe the common man perceives a problem when he can get gasoline for a little more than a dollar a gallon. So...it is more comfortable and convenient to drive a large vehicle...and he does. Jimmy Carter was able to turn the US around towards Solar and so forth during his administration when we had that fuel crisis. Then, the crisis went away, and so did the changes that had been implemented. If the awareness is there, we can have the put out the bonfire mentality and go for it, probably successfully, although it isn't the best way to correct a problem. When the US was focused on going to the moon by Kennedy, they got down to work and they did it. It is a matter of focus and political will. I also feel that the answer to the energy 'problem' is right here on this biofuels list and the discussions of various biofuels. First, conservation. There is a tremendous amount of energy savings available through conservation with relatively little impact on US quality of life. Some are already in use in the country and just need to be expanded. Others are already in use in other countries and just need to be borrowed. Flourescent lighting, compact flourescents as retrofits, LED lighting, better insulation of buildings, co- gen projects, etc. On the energy supply side, we can substitute biodiesel, SVO/WVO into diesel engines, both stationary and in transport applications. Ethanol can be used in spark ignition engines. Space heating is a huge energy user and I see corn burning and other biomass burning as a big solution to this problem. See http://burncorn.net/ I really don't see any need for space heating to come from any other source than the burning of waste biomass or renewables such as corn. Wind and solar can be expanded. The means are available. The will is not. I think the people are getting the message, albeit slowly. I think that there will be change to a more sustainable future regardless of what the political industrial complex want. The word of a better way is getting out...through the Internet, etc. There is a basic ground swell of change in progress that eventually the politicians will need to answer to. One thing I see as essential will be a lowering of the cost of alternative energies. I know it is often discussed that it would be advantageous to raise the cost of fossil energy to the level of alternatives to make the alternatives more attractive. My fear along these lines is that as the price of crude goes up, fields that currently are not economically viable, or are too environmentally sensitive, will become economically and politically viable. We might see a lot more environmental destruction as areas are exploited that currently wouldn't be acceptable. So...I would like to see the price of energy go up to encourage savings as mentioned in the first paragraph, but am concerned that if this is too great, we could see accelerated and more wanton destruction of the environment in the pursuit of fossil fuels. Hopefully the cost of alternatives will cap the cost in such a way that they cost of fossil fuels will not go to a level that these hard to exploit fields will be opened. Derek Hi Robert, US have both capacity and shown in the past that things can happen quickly, but this time it will be very difficult. It would need a regime change and not only that, the new regime would need to understand what has to be done. It is too serious to be subject to the normal lobbying, corporate and political interests. I am not that optimistic about US, at least not without very serious harm have been done to US and the world. This is maybe the most serious draw back of democracies. It is difficult to get painful cures in place and people are often told that the problems are less than they are. I think that you are right, it need fundamental changes and the signs are not good. It is many things that can be done better, but the search for a golden bullet is very damaging. US starts to be a victim of its own propaganda. I said once on the list that US was a technology leader, without thinking too much, I am also in some instances falling for it. The list immediately and rightfully corrected me, US is not a leader in innovations and has never been. The danger is that the
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
I enjoy reading the opinions expressed in this group, but I sometimes have a sense of unease, not about energy sources but about the people. They seem to say: I know better than you do what is best for you, and that justifies using force and theft (eg. taxes) to make you do what is good for you (eg. concerve energy). Essentially every tryrant in history, from Ceasar to Stalin to Pol Pot to (insert favorite congressman) has used that justification (I know better than you do...) to stifle freedom. It may be that you do know better than I. However, the ends do not justify the means (government coercion, loss of property rights, etc.). Further, the one-size fits-all solution never works. Example, I live in the City of Fountains which feels no need to save water. The government in Washington DC has decreed that toilets use less than two gallons of water, not five. Unfortunately, said toilets often need to be flushed three times (using 6 gal.)to dispose of what the former toilets disposed of using only 5 gal. But then, I doubt there is a single congressman who understands plumbing. But, he knows better, not because of brain power but because of a lust for power. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Brittle Power
Dallas Farnworth wrote: Keith, And all others, I did not mean to offend any one. I agree, (as an an American) that the Americans have a VERY slanted view of the world. There are many who don't have a slanted view, however, and I believe more and more are waking up to the big wide world beyond the US, and to the fact that the US is part of that world. Most of this comes from our media, which we cannot do anything about because it is controlled by 'big money' and political forces. That's just a symptom, not a cause. It's not true that you cannot do anything about it - you both plural and singular. Since June 2, more than 300,000 Americans have contacted members of Congress to urge a reversal of the rule changes... - re the FCC's (Federal Communications Commission) so-called Preservation of Localism, Program Diversity, and Competition in Television Broadcast Act of 2003, which, in the current fashion of law-naming, would have done exactly the opposite. -- Whose Media? http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8165 In an era when the influence of corporations on government decision-making rivals the power of the trusts in the Gilded Age, something remarkable is taking place: a democratic revolution against media consolidation. At the prodding of media activists, working journalists and musicians who argue that corporate consolidation is undermining democracy and culture, members of Congress and the Federal Communications Commission are beginning to reassert the all but forgotten principle that decisions about media ownership should take into account the public interest, and they have started asking tough questions about one of the biggest and most significant corporate giveaways in US history. 'Something is definitely shifting in the country and in Washington,' says Independent Representative Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who has argued for years that media consolidation is undermining democracy by putting more and more broadcast and cable outlets, newspapers and Internet sites into the hands of companies guided only by commercial and bottom-line values. 'Where just a few years ago most people did not think about media as an issue, and most members of Congress shied away from talking about how our media is failing to serve the public interest in even the most basic sense, now there is a real dialogue going on. And that dialogue is critical because it is forcing the FCC commissioners to listen to people other than industry lobbyists.' The immediate issue is a critical one: the FCC's forthcoming vote on whether to relax or eliminate longstanding rules preventing media consolidation at both the local and national levels... -- Media Democracy's Moment, Robert W. McChesney and John Nichols, February 28, 2003 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15256 Tip of the iceberg, there's a lot more, a lot going on, a lot that you can do, and should do, and I hope will do. My statement on listening to shortwave is founded in fact: England slants news in whatever way it wishes, as does Australia, Germany, Italy, France, Japan, China (BOTH), etc. You're preaching to the choir Dallas. I've been at odds with the media all my working life because of this, it's a major reason most of my career has been as a freelance journalist. Maybe you missed a comment I made in the Mad Cow USA thread a couple of days back - exactly what you're saying about shortwave radio: Of course our first concern was to reassure the public. - Top British official commenting on the handling of the Chernobyl disaster, when a radioactive cloud sailed over southern England, with no mention that it contained caesium as well as only short-lived particles (we had to get that news from Holland). Of course, the BBC interviewer agreed. Seems it doesn't matter if you kill them, just as long as you reassure them. But I'd say that in none of the other OECD alleged democracies is corporate control of the media so intense and monolithic, nor the content so very narrow, as in the US today. Japan does come rather close perhaps (lapdog press), but in a different way, for different reasons, and with a different effect. However, it's not quite so simple as that, the slant and the modes of influence are quite subtle, and also quite various. They can be fought successfully, and are. An important point in the quote above, and as you intimate, is that you get a different slant in a different national media, and if you can access quite a few such they start to cancel each other out, to an extent. This is perhaps why, after Sept 11, millions of Americans started accessing overseas news sites via the Internet, and they didn't stop doing it, the numbers have grown since then, and keep swelling. The Internet is definitely the biggest crack in their concrete. The only way to actually find the truth is through education, not taking what each government puts out through the propoganda resources. What makes you
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
Hi Hakan, Robert and all Hakan, thanks for those two posts, you put it all in the proper perspective well and economically. Perhaps we should make this distinction again that we've come to here several times before, the critical distinction between Americans (people) on the one hand, and Washington (corporate government) very much on the other. It's a necessary distinction, and I believe even now most people in the world still make it, even those who've been direct victims of Washington's policies (?). They very much don't like Washington, but the great majority still do like Americans, and don't blame them or hold them to account for Washington's actions, though they wish often most fervently that they'd do something about their government. I think the whole world now very much wants Americans to do something about their government, and very fast. Like take it back, along with control of the media, the bureaucracy, the legal system, the education system, and the rest of the stolen institutions of civil society. including real business, as opposed to corporate piracy. the whole world and maybe most of the 4% that lives in US also. Maybe a massive cloning of Keith is a necessary action. -:)) Aarghhh! How about a massive cloning of Hakan instead? (Would slaughtering a clone be considered murder, suicide, or just reasonable behaviour?) direct action that all of us can participate in. Sometimes I am accused of being too heavy, cannot understand why. LOL You ain't heavy, you're my brother. :-) All best Keith Hi Robert, US have both capacity and shown in the past that things can happen quickly, but this time it will be very difficult. It would need a regime change and not only that, the new regime would need to understand what has to be done. It is too serious to be subject to the normal lobbying, corporate and political interests. I am not that optimistic about US, at least not without very serious harm have been done to US and the world. This is maybe the most serious draw back of democracies. It is difficult to get painful cures in place and people are often told that the problems are less than they are. I think that you are right, it need fundamental changes and the signs are not good. It is many things that can be done better, but the search for a golden bullet is very damaging. US starts to be a victim of its own propaganda. I said once on the list that US was a technology leader, without thinking too much, I am also in some instances falling for it. The list immediately and rightfully corrected me, US is not a leader in innovations and has never been. The danger is that the world might rely on US to find the golden bullet to energy crises. I belive like you, that it will be a lot of bullets flying around, but not of the golden type. Any kind of energy solutions must be easy and world inclusive, simple, repeatable and available for all. That is why I am somewhat skeptical to hydrogen and cannot see a fit. My description of the likely route of US, coal and nuclear, did in any way meant that I recommended it. On the contrary, US will in this process hurt the whole world and maybe most of the 4% that lives in US also. Maybe a massive cloning of Keith is a necessary action. -:)) Seriously, the promotion and spreading of information is the most valuable direct action that all of us can participate in. Sometimes I am accused of being too heavy, cannot understand why. LOL Hakan At 04:41 27/12/2003, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: FAST DEVELOPMENT OF COAL AND NUCLEAR. This is also a high stake poker game, but would give US much more time than any oil route. A lot of intelligent people advocate this approach. Personally, it makes me feel uneasy and it doesn't really address the fundamental problem of flagrant energy wastage we've discussed at length in this forum. This afternoon on a trip to Seattle, I shook my head at the sheer number of massive, large displacement vehicles occupied by single drivers on the roads in my country. We sat in traffic for long periods of time with engines idling. (All because my mother sent a huge can of popcorn to us from Witchita, Kansas that Fed Ex wouldn't deliver across the border. . . Had I known what it was, I would have told Fed Ex to send it back!) There is simply too much traffic. Our vehicles are larger than they often need to be. Goods are transported over vast distances on the highway. (Do we really need popcorn from Kansas???) All of this contributes to pollution and resource depletion. We need a fundamental societal restructuring. If we do not drastically cut our energy use and change the paradigm upon which our culture functions, we are in for BIG trouble in the not too distant future. Once the cheap energy system upon which our society is predicated begins to crumble, an economic disaster will follow. This is already happening with natural gas. (Our bill this last
Re: [biofuel] Hello Friends
Hi Jeff I know that I am very new to this group. I have enjoyed the post that I have read from this group. Good, and welcome. If you don't mind, I would like to ask a very big favor. Could some of you please send me some information on converting wood into fuel? What kind of fuel? If it is a book you want me to buy, that's ok. I would like some information, please. If you wanted to send it via private email, that would be find. I am very interested in how to make biodiesel and other biofuels. Any help would be appreciated. I would like to know how to make my own gas and diesel. Ie fuel ethanol and biodiesel. You should find everything you need here, and at the two urls listed at the end of every message: Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel The first is acknowledged as the premier source of small-scale biofuels information on the Web. The second is a treasure house of information on all aspects of biofuels, especially biodiesel - it contains more than 30,000 messages over the last three years, many of them from leaders in the field worldwide. It's an independent archives, not Yahoo's, provided and maintained by list member Martin Klingensmith, with powerful, fast and efficient searching, and no ads. Whatever else you need to know, ask. I plan to make and build anything I need to make biofuels. That is a hint for any plans of any apparatus that can be use to make biofuels. There are plans of both biodiesel processors and fuel ethanol stills at Journey to Forever. Best wishes Keith Very Sincerely, Jeff Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Re: [biofuel] Hello Friends
hi, messages keep comming to me for some reason. im new too, but have done lots of research. for info type wood gas or woodgas into your browser. tons of info and plans will show up,also for waste oil conversion, type svo wvo (stands for straight veg oil, waste veg oil.) if you dont find more info than you want to read. try a different search engine, like 37.com, there you can pick from 37 different search engines to help you out. charles biofuel@yahoogroups.com Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:25:40 +0900 Re: [biofuel] Hello FriendsReply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com msg-1779-1.html msg-1573-3.html msg-1573-4.html http://Game.37.com/ --- Free Games http://newJoke.com/ --- J O K E S ! ! ! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Nothing ... it's people Was: What's wrong with corporations?
Hello Jai Thanks for an interesting discussion. Thankyou for an interesting contribution. I must say I pulled some punches in my response to the post you lifted that quote from. I guess I felt I'd thrown enough already, no matter how well-deserved. But I had a similar response to that quote, but I'd already dubbed the guy's views as backward and primitive in another context. Actually this is neither backward nor primtive, strictly speaking, it's socially retarded. The only thing that prevents us from resorting to sociopathic behaviour is fear of the consequences? What a bankrupt point of view. It was a Macauley quote that came to mind. I went and dug it out, and found a similar one from Mencken. The measure of a person's real character is what they would do if they knew they would never be found out. - adapted from: Thomas B. Macauley The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught. H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956), 'Prejudices: Fourth Series,' 1924 By contrast: I know if there were no consequences to my actions, I would certainly act differently. We have a christmas party at work every year. I COULD get drunk, punch out my boss and take a leak in the punch bowl. Realistically, there would be no legal consequences (my boss is not the kind of guy to call the cops for something stupid like that). But I didn't do it. Why not? Because there would have been consequences. My coworkers would not have liked me anymore, life at work would have been much more difficult. It would have been socially unacceptable. Recently we were discussing ethical biofuel businesses, and I made a distinction between ethics (trying to do what's right) and mere morals (following the rules). My two quotes above amplify the difference, and Mr Jahnke's example demonstrates it, and worse. Sad. Not somebody who should be involved in biofuels or biofuels issues, if he really lives by that credo and isn't just being, well, primitive. Maybe he's better than he thinks. Anyway, Jai, I was interested in this: Research in Attachment Theory (Bowlby / Ainsworth / Main) very clearly shows that people are primarily motivated by the desire to connect to other people: we are a social species. That is adaptive for survival. Stanley I. Greenspan, M.D. and Stuart G. Shanker, D.Phil. wrote a deep analysis of these themes in Toward a Psychology of Interdependency: A Framework for Understanding Global Conflict and Cooperation http://icdl.com/v6_2002_72dpi.pdf. The pdf link brought me THE JOURNAL OF DEVELOPMENTAL AND LEARNING DISORDERS Volume 6 2002, featuring Greenspan and Shanker's work, among others, but not The Psychology of Global Interdependency. I did find reference to it at the site's resources page, but not a link to an online version. Could you help perhaps? It looks at why our current political decision making is misinformed by the premise that, left unchecked, we will all make a mess of things and therefore must be carefully monitored and controlled. We've covered that here from a different angle, in the work of Edward Bernays, Father of Spin and founder of the PR industry. I'd like to see Greenspan and Shanker's analysis. Thanks again. Best Keith Greetings, I have been surfing this list for some time and felt moved to weigh in here. I hope this is not too off topic, but I had some interest in the following statements. Mostly because it speaks to why should we be interested in making an environmental fuel at all, if there are no consequences. Consider the following statement: I know if there were no consequences to my actions, I would certainly act differently. We have a christmas party at work every year. I COULD get drunk, punch out my boss and take a leak in the punch bowl. Realistically, there would be no legal consequences (my boss is not the kind of guy to call the cops for something stupid like that). But I didn't do it. Why not? Because there would have been consequences. My coworkers would not have liked me anymore, life at work would have been much more difficult. It would have been socially unacceptable. The premise here is that without consequences, we are basically opportunists, and will seek our advantage without a care. This thinking is not correct, but it is popular and was called Lexus Talionus - law of the claw - by the political philosopher Hobbes... or Locke, I can't remember which. The basic assertion is that we exist in a state of nature where it is eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, and that the only way to contain this brutality is through the social contract of laws that insure a commodious life. This outdated and psychologically uninformed political philosophy is the basis for present day policymaking that intends to repress and contain what would otherwise be a dangerous population of potential miscreants. Laws from this
[biofuel] Low cost filters
Here is a low cost, low pressure drop, filter that may possibly be useful in working with wvo or biodiesel. I have used them in a water treatment system. My recollection is that they were $5 to $7 each when purchased in lots of a dozen. Other filters available here also: Pleated cellulose/polyester sediment filter cartridge, 5 micron rating, temperature range 40-125F. Model CP5-BB. Fits US Filter (formerly Ametek) Big Blue and other heavy duty water filters. US Filter - Plymouth Products. 502 Indiana Avenue - P.O. Box 1047. Sheboygan, WI 5308-7558. http://weww.plymouthwater.com technical support: 1-800-645-5426 Glenn Ellis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] International biodiesel people!
Hello I'm a journalist, focusing mainly on biodiesel. I would like to create one page for a magazine that shows vegetable oil fuel use and production in every continent, with locally-available oil. If you are in Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe, Mexico, or South America, and you would like to contribute, please contact me. I will need one very clear photo and about 50 words of explanation. Spanish, French, or Portuguese is ok! You can contact me at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] muito obrigada ... merci beaucoup ... muchas gracias ... Luisa Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
Wouldn't hurt to do the math on this one either. The government in Washington DC has decreed that toilets use less than two gallons of water, not five. Unfortunately, said toilets often need to be flushed three times (using 6 gal.)to dispose of what the former toilets disposed of using only 5 gal. Almost any garden variety physician will tell you that there are ~5 liquid flushes to one solid flush. Even if that solid flush has to be repeated twice or thrice, the water savings per person per day is still 50%. So you get caught with a floater once in awhile. Good! Gives all the more pause to reflect on waste rather than simply being an adherant to the gospel of out of sight, out of mind. Then multiply that 50% savings by tens and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people in urban environments and take note of the overall reduction on demand for and upon infrastructure, chemicals, fuel and labor. This is not a paltry matter. Much of the cost of improving and maintaining sewage infrastructure is paid by mill levies (taxes). So the person who owns a $150,000 home pays more than a person who owns a $70,000 home, even though he or she may use the same amount of water or less. Now that's a restriction upon freedom, at least so much as when applying your taxation yardstick. So, do you think it's the government's role to turn a blind eye on those matters that waste taxpayer dollars simply so you or I can have the freedom to waste as much as we want at the expense of others? On the one hand one freedom is exchanged for another. On the other hand one freedom is exchanged for another. The question is which scenario creates the lesser total burden, or if you will, the greater total freedom. While freedom may be a wonderful commodity, its very description demands some degree of curtailment when the exercise of freedom begins to encroach upon the freedom of others. And if there is difficulty in understanding that freedom includes keeping one's cattle fenced in (restricting one's own freedom to protect the freedom of others), then switch gears and think from another selfish (or self-serving) perspective about how such a water use restriction actually puts money back in your pocket. Sewer bills are usually tied directly to consumption in urban markets at a billing rate of ~3:1. Use 1,000 gallons and get billed for 1,000 gallons of disposal but at three times the water rate. So rather than thinking about being infringed upon by the occasional floater, maybe a person could ruminate over the personal savings that can be put towards other interest bearing debts that reduce one's bond servant status to lein holders, erego increasing one's freedom. Or not... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.) I enjoy reading the opinions expressed in this group, but I sometimes have a sense of unease, not about energy sources but about the people. They seem to say: I know better than you do what is best for you, and that justifies using force and theft (eg. taxes) to make you do what is good for you (eg. concerve energy). Essentially every tryrant in history, from Ceasar to Stalin to Pol Pot to (insert favorite congressman) has used that justification (I know better than you do...) to stifle freedom. It may be that you do know better than I. However, the ends do not justify the means (government coercion, loss of property rights, etc.). Further, the one-size fits-all solution never works. Example, I live in the City of Fountains which feels no need to save water. The government in Washington DC has decreed that toilets use less than two gallons of water, not five. Unfortunately, said toilets often need to be flushed three times (using 6 gal.)to dispose of what the former toilets disposed of using only 5 gal. But then, I doubt there is a single congressman who understands plumbing. But, he knows better, not because of brain power but because of a lust for power. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
The problem is not really if US conserves energy or not, for me US can use what ever they want, as long as it is based on freedom and use of own resources and not based on pillage of others resources. The problem is exactly coercion and the loss of property rights, or do you suggest that 4% of the worlds population have larger rights than the other 96%. It is an accepted fact that control and availability of energy resources is necessary for development and freedom. When the 4% use and need 25% of the worlds energy resources to maintain their freedom, it is not much freedom left for the rest of the world. US also uses force and sophisticated theft to secure this situation. When it comes to oil, US is no longer the city of fountains. If you have problems with the government in Washington DC, it is nothing compared with what the rest of the world have with said government. You are right, it is too much of telling the world what freedom and democracy is and very little of genuine loyalty and fairness. It talks and show off, but what is the reality. Many of the developing countries are giving between 0.6 to 1% of their GNP, to help the developing countries and it is very seldom strings attached to how, where and what.. US gives 0.2% (a large part is military capacity) and it is often geared up to assist US export industry. US foreign policy is quite ugly when you look closer and it is no surprise that they often are met with hostility, that so many other tyrants have experienced. I agree with you, Washington DC have for a long time tried to Americanize the world and tell it what to do. I do not like taxation as a mean to force people to conserve energy, even less when it is used to encourage people to use more energy. To subsidize a ridiculous low energy cost with money from the tax payer is not right, the price should have a direct relation to the real cost and then we do not need to discuss this. Our philosophy is actually an attempt to communicate ways of making better toilets and in that way save energy. The fact is that the most common Swedish toilets only need 1.5 gallon to flush properly. Not that Sweden have a lack of high quality water, but it is an enormous energy waste and cost, to have to pump 4 times more water only because of poorly designed toilets. Not to talk about the supporting network, that needs to be dimensioned for a 4 times higher capacity than necessary. It is quite funny to look at the statistics of cleanness, where the Scandinavians manage to be at the top, without flushing 5 gallons in the toilets. Also to have the highest living standards and accommodation comfort, at one third of others energy use. It is all about human footprint and Americans have awfully big feet. Hakan At 16:56 27/12/2003, you wrote: I enjoy reading the opinions expressed in this group, but I sometimes have a sense of unease, not about energy sources but about the people. They seem to say: I know better than you do what is best for you, and that justifies using force and theft (eg. taxes) to make you do what is good for you (eg. concerve energy). Essentially every tryrant in history, from Ceasar to Stalin to Pol Pot to (insert favorite congressman) has used that justification (I know better than you do...) to stifle freedom. It may be that you do know better than I. However, the ends do not justify the means (government coercion, loss of property rights, etc.). Further, the one-size fits-all solution never works. Example, I live in the City of Fountains which feels no need to save water. The government in Washington DC has decreed that toilets use less than two gallons of water, not five. Unfortunately, said toilets often need to be flushed three times (using 6 gal.)to dispose of what the former toilets disposed of using only 5 gal. But then, I doubt there is a single congressman who understands plumbing. But, he knows better, not because of brain power but because of a lust for power. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: International biodiesel people!
Hello Luisa I'm also a journalist, focusing on many things, including biofuels, and I'm the list owner. You're welcome to ask, but I think we'd all much rather such exchanges took place on-list, not off-list direct to you, so that all the list members could share in it and the responses would be in the archives for later reference. In fact that's something of a policy here, with general group support - the list is for sharing. Thanks Keith Addison List owner Hello I'm a journalist, focusing mainly on biodiesel. I would like to create one page for a magazine that shows vegetable oil fuel use and production in every continent, with locally-available oil. If you are in Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe, Mexico, or South America, and you would like to contribute, please contact me. I will need one very clear photo and about 50 words of explanation. Spanish, French, or Portuguese is ok! You can contact me at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] muito obrigada ... merci beaucoup ... muchas gracias ... Luisa Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Low cost filters
Hi Glen: 125F and 5 micron will be a poor combination, methinks. You need oil to be quite a bit hotter than 125F to pass a 5 micron filter for any length of time (i.e., for the filter to continue to allow fluid to pass after the fibers have soaked up oil and after some particles have started to accumulate on the filter media. Edward Beggs On Saturday, December 27, 2003, at 10:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is a low cost, low pressure drop, filter that may possibly be useful in working with wvo or biodiesel. I have used them in a water treatment system. My recollection is that they were $5 to $7 each when purchased in lots of a dozen. Other filters available here also: Pleated cellulose/polyester sediment filter cartridge, 5 micron rating, temperature range 40-125F. Model CP5-BB. Fits US Filter (formerly Ametek) Big Blue and other heavy duty water filters. US Filter - Plymouth Products. 502 Indiana Avenue - P.O. Box 1047. Sheboygan, WI 5308-7558. http://weww.plymouthwater.com technical support: 1-800-645-5426 Glenn Ellis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel]opinions on alaska forest situation?
No, you didn't, but you might as well say it. It is like saying Bush will put us back to the dark ages, where Gore wouldn't have. I will repeat for those who can understand the King's English. Bush cannot stop progress no more than Klinton could. Now that isn't that difficult of a statement, but make of it what you will. To hold Bush responsible for every perceived ill that has befallen the U.S., you might as well hold Klinton and company responsible for his 8 years that led up to the Enron debacle. But no one likes to talk about that, since it went down on Bush's watch. Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:42:47 -0500 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: opinions on alaska forest situation? I didn't say stop it. I stated that Bush Co. noosing a lead anchor around this country's neck will slow it's attainment of energy efficiency and renewables to the point that it will take half a human lifetime to recover from their debilitating agenda to a level of par with other countries. That also means inordinate losses in market share and jobs in what at one time were markets that the US led in. But what the hell. What's the difference? Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] your are right,keith
50 words and a clear picture may stir interest,but it is not even a beggining. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Slave or slave ... your choice Was: Nothing ... it's people
Hi Curtis First of all, I can't read the archives. Everyone seems to forget I've got no internet access!! I'll read it next time I hit the library... I didn't forget Curtis, and I didn't forget about the library either - it did seem to me that, considering what you said and also considering what else you've said previously, time spent in the library reading what Public Citizen has to say about tort law and tort reform and tort myths would be time well spent, and I think you'd think that too. So here it is again: http://www.citizen.org/congress/civjus/tort/ Public Citizen | Tort Law Issues / Debunking Legal Myths - Tort Law Issues / Debunking Legal Myths As for the archives reference, it's not inconsequential and irrelevant, I'm going to post it to you offlist. But for the purpose of this reply, it is inconsequential and irrelevant. Reason: I agree with you 100% that many Large Corporations are what many people might consider ... ahem .. totally evil. They employ cheap chinese labor ... many times at the end of a whip or the barrel of a gun forcing 13 year-olds to solder circuit boards for their next day ration of food. They wield immense power... often times having sorcercers casting magickal spells (ie, PR agencies) on their payrolls. Paying them to put glassy eyes of duh .. on the public and making them (us) say ys massster ... and pay them (the Corporation) money ... from which to wield more power. Blah, blah, blah. The problem is Keith ... I agree with you there!! 100%!! I never said that the reality of mammoth Corporations don't exist. I simply disagree with your solution. To the problem ... of Mammoth Corporations. NOBODY seems to see what is going on nowadays in today's society. I'll condense it into one-liners below: Mammoth Corporations exercise their freedoms ... to rape and pillage ... and shackle third-worlder's into bondage. In other words, slavery. Public outcry. More Government Controls. Problem is, these rules are SWEEPING. They affect, not only Mammoth Corporations ... but also individual ... as well as small business Corps ...like mine. They SHACKLE us into THEIR rules ... the GOVERNMENT'S rules. Us ...us individuals and small Corps. Into a box. In other words, slavery. Corporate outcry. WE WANT MORE FREEDOM!!! So they get it. Back to rape and pillaging. In other words, slavery. Public outcry .. Does ANYBODY on this list see the pattern forming here?? Don't you see that what's going on here are simply TWO SLAVE MASTERS fighting for slaves?? I'm afraid I must again disagree with the entire group in this case.I agree that Mammoth Corporations are (blah, blah, blah). But anyone who agrees that more government controls are necessary are IMHO THEMSELVES ... spun. Spun ... by the GOVERNMENT SLAVE master perhaps ... PR agency wizards. Selling why being a Government Slave is better. Why such a narrow range of options? The two are in each others' pockets, you might as well talk about the corporate-government complex. Especially in the US these days, but not only in the US, it's just much more extreme there right now. Curtis, I'm surprised that in this case at least you seem to have missed a major theme that runs through the discussions here. We're always talking about it: decentralise - localise, community-level, farm-scale - Small is Beautiful: Economics as if people mattered, Schumacher, Appropriate Technology: Technology as if people mattered: more recently, Appropriate Business: Business as if people mattered, when talking about ethical biofuels businesses. We say there's no best technology, it all depends on the local circumstances which is best, and what's needed is all available technologies, to be applied in combination as appropriate to the local situation. If you think you're too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito. (Dalai Lama) Never underestimate the power of a small group of individuals to change the world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has. (Margaret Mead) And so on. How much land will it take to grow enough biofuels? people ask - too much, so they dump the whole idea. Top-down think - wrong question, you can't get to the right answer from there. What is the right answer? No land at all... when you do everything local, small and beautiful. Empowerment vs disempowerment - either or both the options you choose are after disempowering the individual, brushing aside all local concerns and everything I've just mentioned, rendering us all helpless and dependent, on them (as indeed you often remark). WE DON'T CARE. WE'RE DOING IT ANYWAY. I'm spun ... absolutely no disagreement there. I'm simply saying ... so are you. No I'm not. So go and unspin yourself, will you? We need to step back. And see the Volleying of slaves going back and forth. Back and forth. Back and forth. And simply stop playing the game.
Re: [biofuel]opinions on alaska forest situation?
No. Bush can't stop progress. But he can forestall it. He can largely derail it, short and long term. He can divert it. He can subvert it. He can distort it. He can temporarily redefine it and pervert it. He can enable waste effort, wasted resources and wasted windows of opportunity.. He can hasten and promote pandemonium. He already has. And the progression of his blinders on policies continues to do so in increasingly greater increments, all-the-while stealing the greater good from increasingly greater numbers. No one holds Shrub responsible for every human or American ill. Only those that he is complicit in. That's all. The volume of ills accurately assessable towards him is strictly his choice, no one else's. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel]opinions on alaska forest situation? No, you didn't, but you might as well say it. It is like saying Bush will put us back to the dark ages, where Gore wouldn't have. I will repeat for those who can understand the King's English. Bush cannot stop progress no more than Klinton could. Now that isn't that difficult of a statement, but make of it what you will. To hold Bush responsible for every perceived ill that has befallen the U.S., you might as well hold Klinton and company responsible for his 8 years that led up to the Enron debacle. But no one likes to talk about that, since it went down on Bush's watch. Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 13:42:47 -0500 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: opinions on alaska forest situation? I didn't say stop it. I stated that Bush Co. noosing a lead anchor around this country's neck will slow it's attainment of energy efficiency and renewables to the point that it will take half a human lifetime to recover from their debilitating agenda to a level of par with other countries. That also means inordinate losses in market share and jobs in what at one time were markets that the US led in. But what the hell. What's the difference? Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
FYI, re Greg Jahnke... It seems Mr Jahnke could not accept a warning to stop flinging unwarranted insults at list members, and to stop ignoring and evading inconvenient arguments put to him and respond to them. In response he sent two long and furious posts heaping insult and contempt not only on me (though he got me and Todd mixed up, and seems to think I'm an American) but on the entire list. Strange and disconnected stuff, a very confused person. I wrote a reply to him offlist, but before I could post it he unsubscribed, clearly in high dudgeon that his gems hadn't appeared (he was still on new members' moderation and I do sleep sometimes). In his posts he'd challenged me to kick him out, but I refused, told him he could stay and post freely but only if he stopped insulting people and responded to their arguments in an honest fashion. I sent him the reply anyway. His two posts I spiked, since they were eminently spikeable and little else - except this bit... A bit selective of me, but I can't resist it - the guy's totally confident that it's a crushing blow, and it's obviously something he's terrifically proud of. Just what exactly was Mr Jahnke doing in the ANWR? As far as me being an amateur, I wrote part of the environmetal impact study that is being used RIGHT NOW to justify encroachment into the region. You are shouting out crap on a yahoo list. Who is the amateur? Take a good look at the logic in my postings. I have it on pretty good authoriuty that you will see them agin in the very near future, only this time voiced through the oval office. So now you know, presuming Mr Jahnke is to be believed. And you also know, having seen it displayed right here, the kind of logic, reality and sheer denialism being utilised to justify encroachment into the region of the ANWR. Well, no changes there. I think maybe Mr Jahnke isn't aware of the connotations of the word encroach. Some logic at last from the oval office would be a first in quite a while though. But don't hold your breath. (Um, he's the amateur.) Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] http://www.die.net/musings/national_debt/
This is interesting, not to mention a bit telling. http://www.die.net/musings/national_debt/ Of course a person must keep one eye on the bouncing red ball and the other on the concurrent year for it to have any relevance. Pity that it's not updated. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.)
Well, it was all a bit disappointing to say the least. Virgin forest in Colorado just off the highways and bi-ways? Not. Maybe undisturbed enough to let it develop to a harvestable state, long enough that the previous stumps have long since decayed. But certainly not virgin. What isolated patches there may be are as rare as old-growth in Ohio, which is soon to be no more now that the coal companies have managed to get a permit to mine undertheath it. [Good bye hydrology! Actually it doesn't disappear. It's just diverted to levels beyond the present root system's reach.] I seriously believe that my brother-in-law who worked up on the Slope for nigh 20 years has a better grasp of the realities of ANWR than Mr. Jahnke. Reality usually is a bit stranger than stumping around doing impact studies on the company dollar. 'Course his perspective of the oil establishment might be a bit teinted being a summer commercial fisherman whose livilihood was also greatly impacted by the Exxon Valdez. Guess it just shows to go ya' that there is a reaction for every action. Skim the cream off the slope and get it in the trousers in Prince William Sound, or elsewhere. The whole famn damily watched the highly boasted and overly prideful Oil Capital of the World stagnate and much of it die along with a million dreams, North Road wither up and Steelhead melt down, not to mention witness a twenty square mile swath writhe the death of a thousand acid rains from Colliers. But hell. How could anyone other than a paid hit man for British Petroleum know anything worth spit? And no wonder that the majority of this country is concerned about the company spin on ANWR when one of their tech/execs can't even calculate tsps. accurately. How in blue blazes can any of their work revolving around bbls. be reliable, much less any environmental inventory that was entrusted [cough..., splutter, hick] to his judgement? [Was that a heaping lemming or a level one?] Not disappointed to see Mr. Jahnke go. He deserved much more than he got for trying to flag so many distortions. Funny thing about trying to run wildly and blindly from reality on broken Arctic ice. Sooner or later you run into an open lead that can no longer be jumped across. Personally I'd hazard that his demons are what haunts him and what he's fighting most at present. The distorted arguments are but symptomatic. Either that or he's just another snowbound juvenile delinquent on a keyboard pretending to be something he's not at the cost of anyone who will listen. Really difficult to discern short of a search warrant. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] opinions on US energy situation? (was Alaska etc.) FYI, re Greg Jahnke... It seems Mr Jahnke could not accept a warning to stop flinging unwarranted insults at list members, and to stop ignoring and evading inconvenient arguments put to him and respond to them. In response he sent two long and furious posts heaping insult and contempt not only on me (though he got me and Todd mixed up, and seems to think I'm an American) but on the entire list. Strange and disconnected stuff, a very confused person. I wrote a reply to him offlist, but before I could post it he unsubscribed, clearly in high dudgeon that his gems hadn't appeared (he was still on new members' moderation and I do sleep sometimes). In his posts he'd challenged me to kick him out, but I refused, told him he could stay and post freely but only if he stopped insulting people and responded to their arguments in an honest fashion. I sent him the reply anyway. His two posts I spiked, since they were eminently spikeable and little else - except this bit... A bit selective of me, but I can't resist it - the guy's totally confident that it's a crushing blow, and it's obviously something he's terrifically proud of. Just what exactly was Mr Jahnke doing in the ANWR? As far as me being an amateur, I wrote part of the environmetal impact study that is being used RIGHT NOW to justify encroachment into the region. You are shouting out crap on a yahoo list. Who is the amateur? Take a good look at the logic in my postings. I have it on pretty good authoriuty that you will see them agin in the very near future, only this time voiced through the oval office. So now you know, presuming Mr Jahnke is to be believed. And you also know, having seen it displayed right here, the kind of logic, reality and sheer denialism being utilised to justify encroachment into the region of the ANWR. Well, no changes there. I think maybe Mr Jahnke isn't aware of the connotations of the word encroach. Some logic at last from the oval office would be a first in quite a while though. But don't hold your breath. (Um, he's the amateur.) Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
