[biofuel] sun 'to give us cheap energy'

[tallex2002]

Sun 'to give us cheap fuel'

SCIENTISTS say they have found the Holy Grail
 of fuel and can supply unlimited, super-cheap
 energy to everyone on Earth in seven years. 

They claim to have found how to use the SUN 
to turn WATER into power and so end our
reliance on oil, coal and gas. 



full story

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004401196,00.html


We will see if this tech actually gets out in the market
place and is not put on a shelf somewhere to collect dust.

regards





http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/

news - resources - forum

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy









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Re: [biofuel] Dealerships?

[nickg]

What.. me worry? They will do it when it becomes profitable and
individual initiative can be discouraged by law, underpricing or both.
Nickg

- Original Message - 
From: Neoteric Biofuels   Inc 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com   
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Dealerships?

Since the National Biodiesel Board in the USA is funded and has the 
mandate to promote biodiesel use, and has all the needed materials to 
convince, why not ask them to get a dialogue going with VW, pointing 
out the benefits to both parties, as well as end users, and the 
environment?

It seems to me VW could make a lot of low cost marketing/publicity 
points in North America, by being strongly supportive of biodiesel use.

Edward Beggs



On Aug 30, 2004, at 6:35 AM, Keith Addison wrote:

 I'd love to have a well-written list of talking points and
materials
>>> to
 convince dealerships to promote diesel sales and biodiesel fueling.
 Suggestions?




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Re: [biofuel] Ohhh, what a feeling !

[nickg]

Thanks L. 
My wife thinks I'm crazy!
What else is new.
Nickg

- Original Message - 
From: bioveging   
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com   
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 12:06 PM
Subject: [biofuel] Ohhh, what a feeling !

That used to be for a Toyota ad, but it is now for how it feels when 
you first tank up your vehicle with B100 and run it down the road 
with that special knowledge that not only are you not poluting the 
air and peoples' lungs but you are actually contributing to the 
disposal of a nasty product(WVO)all the while doing your vehicle's 
engine nothing but good. An all around win/win situation.
The Benz is now running B100 and has been so the last few days, 
before which it was B85 and next week it will be B100 and so on and 
so forth until the cold weather forces me to blend again ;(.
The new processor works well as does the standpipe wash tank
http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=333),
  
however the drill-pump should be replaced with a Pony Pump as it 
does not quite have enough "juice" to get it circulating properly 
without a little assistance. That is the next upgrade, a Pony Pump
www.northerntool.com - productId=16818. Once that is done I'll post 
my comments about performance. I had one before for water drawing 
from a well but it overheated easily, however it was another maker 
and I now have a better one scoped out for trial as soon as the $ 
permits.

L.





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[biofuel] Pump Washing of biodiesel

[dermot]

I would appreciate any suggestions or help from people who have experience
with washing biodiesel by using a pump. I have tried unsuccessfully to do it
and have ended up with about 50% mayonnaise.

Here's what I did:

I heated the used oil, which was over a year old, to 130 degrees centigrade
for over an hour to make sure there was no water present. I then took a
sample and allowed it to cool before titrating it.
I got a titration reading of around 2.7. I did the titration three times and
it was always around this figure. I added 4 grams to this figure and made a
few one litre test batches mixing 6.7 grams of lye to the methanol.  I used
22% methanol (220 ml) in order to ensure a complete reaction.

I made sure that the lye mixed completely with the methanol.  When I mixed
the methoxide with the wvo I got a very good separation and everything
seemed fine.
I then siphoned off the top layer of biodiesel and added an equal amount of
water to it.  I shook it about 15 times and I got a good separation within
seconds and after maybe an hour I had almost completely clean biodiesel on
top and white coloured water underneath. There was no middle layer.  After a
few days I siphoned off the washed biodiesel and washed it a few more times.
Same result, perfect separation after a few hours and it separated quite
quickly initially. I will call this sample "A".

I then took another litre sample of the unwashed biodiesel and ran it
through the whole process again to see if I had a complete reaction. I
titrated it but it immediately turned purple so I used the figure of 4 grams
of lye to mix with the 220 ml of methanol. I mixed the methoxide and
biodiesel thoroughly and was pleased to see that I got no separation,
indicating that there had been a complete reaction the first time.  I washed
it again and got good separation very quickly. So far so good.

I felt confident enough now to do my first large batch in my processor.  By
large I mean 50 litres.
My processor is an old discarded plastic tractor mounted spray tank. It is
rectangular in shape but has a slight cone shaped bottom. I use a pump mixer
to pump the contents from the bottom of the tank to the top where I have a
three quarter inch pipe connected to a wand which has about 40 small holes
drilled to enable good mixing. This wand is submerged near he bottom of the
tank. The pump is a sliding vane type and is powered by a 2 horsepower motor
running at 1750 rpm.

I heated the wvo in a separate heater tank using a butane burner and brought
it up to 65 degrees centigrade. I then transferred it by pump to the
reaction vessel and turned on my pump. I then gradually added the methoxide
mixture (at room temp) to the pump inlet and mixed away for about an hour to
ensure good mixing. I have the reactor tank well insulated so the
temperature didn't drop below 55 degrees centigrade during the reaction time
of one hour.

Next morning I saw that everything went very well.  I had good separation
and the glycerine had fallen to the bottom and was liquid, just as the trial
batches had been, so it was easy to draw off the glycerine.
I drew off a pint of biodiesel and did the wash test by shaking it
vigorously for about ten shakes. I got good separation almost immediately
and it cleared to lovely biodiesel and milky water in a few minutes. I
drained off the water and let the biodiesel air dry for a few days when it
turned the nice clear straw yellow. Call this sample "B".

I was happy that I had made good biodiesel so I decided to pump wash the
biodiesel in the reaction vessel. I added to the approximately 50 litres of
biodiesel about 30 litres of water and circulated it through the processor
for about half an hour. The result was mayonnaise. I let it settle for a day
and then drained off the milky white water. The only problem was that before
long I realised that most of the mixture was at this stage mayonnaise so I
stopped draining off the lower layer.  What was left of the mixture(about 20
litres) I put into a plastic carboy and went on holidays for a week. When I
came back I had three layers; the top 30 percent was biodiesel, a large
middle layer of mayonnaise about 60 per cent and a bottom layer of slightly
darker mayonnaise.

I then went back to my two samples "A" and "B" which I was happy was good
biodiesel and performed the wash test on them yet again but this time very
vigorously and for about five minutes each. I was trying to simulate the
mixing that occurred in the pump mixing. No matter how hard I shook I still
got good separation on BOTH samples.

It would seem to me that the initial wash has got to be quite gentle even
with well made biodiesel and that subsequent washes can then be as violent
as you like and you will still get good separation.

Before I try another batch I would appreciate any comments from anybody who
has tried this washing method. I'm obviously doing something wrong or else
pump mixing doesn't work.
Sorry for being so long winded but I think in order

Re: [biofuel] Re: Environment

[nickg]

What is CAWKI?
Nickg

- Original Message - 
From: Neoteric Biofuels   Inc 
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com   
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Environment

Thanks, Keith

Edward Beggs
http://www.biofuels.ca  


On Aug 29, 2004, at 10:39 PM, Keith Addison wrote:

> Hi Ed
>
>> Hi Keith...
>>
>> DanghI should know this one...you told me before once, a
>> few eons ago, now you've used it twice in the last few days...
>>
>> CAWKI?
>
> :-) Twice? Did I? Oh right - sinister extreme leftwing conspiracies
> on the one hand and sheep farts and termites on the other, CAWKI
> can't possibly survive. Save the women and children first! We'll all
> be murdered in our beds! Bullets can't stop it, rockets can't stop it
> - we might have to use nukular forz!
>
> Um, sorry... I didn't want to puzzle anyone, but it is part of
> Internet usage, I didn't just make it up:
>
> CAWKI  Civilization As We Know It
> http://www.acronymfinder.com/  
> Acronym Finder: Find out what over 361,000 acronyms & abbreviations 
> stand for
>
> As a writer and editor I really don't like acronyms, but midst the
> chaos of the global Internet, WTH...
>
> Regards
>
> Keith
>
>
>> Edward Beggs
>> http://www.biofuels.ca  
>>
>>
>> On Aug 29, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Keith Addison wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> they're a threat to CAWKI. Can't be us, after all, we wouldn't do a
>>> thing like that, must be nature, it's downright unnatural, it should
>>> be stopped.
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
 
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
 
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>




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[biofuel] Girl Mark's posts 3

[Keith Addison]

This is about quality.

A couple of reposts are necessary - just excerpts. It's a bit long 
just the same but it's worth a read if you want to know what all this 
is really about, and you should want to know.

First, this, from my main response to Mark's protests that she was 
finally going to respond to yesterday but didn't. "I" is me and "you" 
is Mark.

>In fact, however, I've had growing misgivings about it, both the 
>processor stuff and the bubblewashing. There are too many 
>contradictions. I tried to sort some of them out at the processor 
>page recently but didn't get very far - a contradiction is a 
>contradiction after all. What you say about draining the glycerine 
>for one instance, what happens to it after that for another: "Use 
>carboys or buckets to drain the glycerol/soap/methanol byproduct. 
>Don't sniff it -- there is methanol present."
>
>Uh-huh? Yet when I uploaded our "Simple 5-gallon processor" page you 
>argued with me about it claiming it was dangerous: "But I don't like 
>the 'pouring off biodiesel' part. I have gotten serious methanol 
>exposure quite a few times doing this same thing (expecially with 
>warm biodiesel, which is much more fume-exuding than cold)."
>
>Not so, I said - it IS cold, for one thing, but you insisted: "I've 
>done my share of pouring off the biodiesel (and inhaling methanol, 
>therefore i"ve stopped doing this pouring). It's not a safe 
>practice, goes against the whole point of fumeless processors. Your 
>face is right there as you pour. I try pretty hard to hold my breath 
>and I still have gotten fumed this way. I've just stopped doing this 
>"
>
>But it seems you haven't. Yet I recall your saying onlist that you 
>certainly didn't know what methanol fumes smelt like, you were much 
>to safety-conscious. You say one thing and do another? There are 
>other things, like this:
>http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/36779/
>
>And some of the stuff you were saying in that ridiculous fracas you 
>fomented at the Biodiesel list (I mean the last one, not the one 
>you've just started there). Which leaves a person wondering just 
>what it is that you teach people.

Then the "other things, like this" - I reposted the message linked 
there, "Repost 1", "Re: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large 
processor", 10 Jul 2004. More problems. It's a reply from me to Todd. 
Mark had earlier contributed to the thread, and I've quoted her post. 
Todd was responding to another member's post, not Mark's, and I 
replied to Todd. (You can access the whole thread at the link above.) 
Todd said this:

>>Some concern has been expressed in the past over the use of air to dry fuel,
>>the concern being fuel oxidation. It's beyond me why those who express such
>>concern (and rightfully so) don't say word one about bubble washing doing
>>the exact same thing.

It's Girl Mark he's referring to, it's in the archives if you want to 
check it. I said:

>Indeed. For my part, I didn't say anything about air-drying but I 
>did say something about bubble-washing and oxidation:
>
>>Meeting the German or Austrian standard isn't difficult, but the 
>>Euro standard might be, especially if we think bubblewashing is a 
>>great idea. Might have to drop bubblewashing, go for simple 
>>stirring instead (and making the stuff properly in the first 
>>place). Might have to use an additive as well. And, might have to 
>>drop soy too. Something tells me the ASTM standard isn't about to 
>>adopt these Euro oxidation limits any time soon.
>
>Bubble-washing certainly promotes oxidation. I've been sent some lab 
>test results on that, or rather a precis of them. Those folks are no 
>longer doing bubble-washing or air-drying. They use pumps and 
>stirrers to wash.
>
>>Others express concern with pump- or prop-washed fuel not clearing as
>>quickly as mist- or bubble-washed. There's sound reason for this, all things
>>being equal. Pumps and propellers have the ability of better mixing the fuel
>>and water ("atomizing it"), bringing both in more frequent contact with each
>>other. This means greater surface to surface contact between water molecules
>>and all suspended/dissolved impurities. Fifteen minutes with a 1/2 hp motor
>>and 4" - 6" prop in a 200 gallon wash tank or bigger will achieve the same
>>thing or more as an all-day-affair with a mist- or bubble-washer. This
>>allows for hours of washing time to be converted to settling time, in turn
>>hastening the entire wash process.
>
>Faster, results as good or better. We still do bubble-washing, but 
>then we do just about everything else too, except mist-washing, I 
>really do think that's a blind alley, along with other well-known 
>blind alleys. If this were just a production facility rather than 
>also for demonstration, testing, investigation, we'd probably drop 
>bubble-washing, or mostly anyway. It does have its advantages, 
>especially if you're not in a hurry, and oxidation of an oil like 
>canola/rapeseed or better (ie lower Iodine Values) isn't a p

[biofuel] MODERATOR'S MESSAGE - PLEASE READ

[Keith Addison]

The Girl Mark thread/discussion/whatever is now closed. I'll post one 
further message listing the sequence of relevant links to it all when 
these messages are in the archives so they have links to link to, and 
that's it.

The rest of this is for Girl Mark.

Mark, you had every chance to respond to all this, it could have been 
sorted out amicably and contructively, too late now, too bad.

You can stay here if you like, or leave if you like, it's up to you. 
If you stay, there'll be some restrictions.

Since the hacker attack in June, the list has been on full moderation 
as a precaution. That will change soon and we'll revert to normal, 
which is an unmoderated list, with, like most big lists these days, 
new members set to automatic moderation until their first few 
messages have proved their bona-fides, an essential anti-spamming 
measure. But you'll stay on moderation permanently.

A list of rules, more like guidelines, will be posted soon, not as a 
result of the whining here in the last few days by people who only 
sought to bend them out of shape anyway, which includes you. There's 
always a lot of leeway here, I've consistently and loudly resisted 
any idea that the List owner and moderators should act like 
schoolmarms, list members and the list community as a whole are 
expected and required to moderate themselves, they've shown an 
excellent capacity for that in the past, with a few exceptions. You 
had a lot of leeway, really a lot. If you do stay, no more leeway. 
Take note: no leeway.

You don't get to argue anymore about all this stuff. You're welcome, 
of course, to post references to other web resources where relevant 
in normal discussion, as I said in the first place, but we can all 
see very clearly the difference between that and self-promotion, or 
any kind of promotion, don't flout it. Don't flout anything. Discuss 
your processor and its problems or whatever if you like, or your 
washing problems, discuss whatever you like, just be straight about 
it, don't grind any axes. Squeaky-clean will do just fine. "Straight 
dealing is always better Mark." It will be enforced.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

 




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[biofuel] Girl Mark's posts 2

[Keith Addison]

My last message put out the fire. This one will blow away all the 
smoke. The next one will deal with what's left - two important issues.

First, the smoke. Mark was told by the List owner to stop spamming 
the list, following a long succession of messages promoting - 
PROMOTING, not just "mentioning" as alleged - what she calls "her" 
home page, veggieavenger, over a long period, growing more and more 
relentless and blatant until it finally became insupportable.

She refused, she was defiant, she argued about it, and she continued 
doing it. Why?

The second issue arose through her demanding that I "credit" the 
veggieavenger site as the source of her "Appleseed" reactor material 
at Journey to Forever. But it was not the source of the material, as 
was conclusively shown, and she had twice approved the material at 
JtF, including the sourcing. All material at JtF is correctly 
sourced, we're professional publishers of long standing and we're 
very careful about that. So it could only be a request for a link, 
and that has nothing to do with author's rights, the decision is 
entirely the webmaster's. But this was used by Girl Mark and what 
emerged as her allies as the basis of all kinds of accusations, here 
and elsewhere, many of them slanderous and actionable (if we cared 
enough), about abusing an author's rights, holding it "hostage", 
plagiarism, theft and so on.

Never mind the smokescreen, the case is simple and unambiguous, and 
this is not an issue, despite all attempts to make it one.

But why was Girl Mark so insistent on getting "her" site linked at 
Journey to Forever, even stooping to such questionable tactics?

Why also did she and others keep painting the whole row as a matter 
of "competition", "upstaging" and so on? Mark has done that a few 
times before, each time she's either put her foot in it or it's 
exploded in her face, but she keeps right on doing it. Rather 
telling. We are not interested in competition or upstaging, I've 
killed that argument in a couple of previous posts. That is not an 
issue here, at least not on our side. (Sides! Yuk!)

Anyway, her demands rejected, Mark then demanded that I take down her 
material at JtF, not a big surprise. But that is not her prerogative, 
especially for such a baseless reason. If there is a genuine problem, 
publishers might be prepared to negotiate with authors over 
withdrawal following publication, even though the author has approved 
the publication, though it'd be rare. They certainly can't be told to 
do so by a pettish author - "It's my ball and you can't play with 
it," as Gustl put it. So that is not an issue either, just hot air. 
(Anyway, it's Dale Scroggins's ball, isn't it?)

What emerged from this attempt at distraction was my telling Mark 
that it was my decision to make, not hers, but that I'd been having 
serious misgivings about her material anyway, because of a growing 
number of contradictions. I outlined some of them and pointed to 
others, to which she'd repeatedly failed to respond.

"You say one thing and do another? ... Which leaves a person 
wondering just what it is that you teach people." And: "Anyway, your 
"Bubblewashing 101" piece probably won't last too long either, I 
doubt it will survive the next website updating, when I get that far."

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if there were contradictions and 
doubts about her material Mark would want to sort them out, no? 
That's what I wanted, I've been trying for nearly two months, ever 
since I asked those questions in the first of the two previous posts 
that Mark ignored ("Re: washing biodiesel in large processor", 10 Jul 
2004). But no. A subsequent off-list reminder got no response from 
her. Nor this time round, which brought up further contradictions - 
but Mark was too busy to reply, put it all off till yesterday and we 
got this "messy flood" of distraction instead, and so did everybody 
else.

Every time Mark has offered material to Journey to Forever or 
proposed updates I've responded immediately and willingly, some of 
which is now on record here, yet she claims this: "I doubt that you 
would upload an updated version from me," and ignores my attempts to 
discuss it and hopefully to sort it out. She's still ignoring it, 
right now, and we've had all this smoke-and-mirrors stuff instead of 
a discussion. Why?

So now we reach the nub of it. When people alleged this row was just 
"in-fighting" and so on and it should be taken off-list, I said there 
were serious issues involved, "it's a quality control issue, and an 
ethical one".

Does Mark's material pass the quality test?

No.

Does Mark pass the ethical test?

You can judge that for yourself. The last of these messages will be 
the series of links to the main messages in this "ahem, discussion", 
in sequence, without all the noise, as Todd suggested.

Does Mark still qualify as a list member?

No. About 10 times over.

See next message, Girl Mark's posts 3.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever

[biofuel] Ohhh, what a feeling !

[bioveging]

That used to be for a Toyota ad, but it is now for how it feels when 
you first tank up your vehicle with B100 and run it down the road 
with that special knowledge that not only are you not poluting the 
air and peoples' lungs but you are actually contributing to the 
disposal of a nasty product(WVO)all the while doing your vehicle's 
engine nothing but good. An all around win/win situation.
The Benz is now running B100 and has been so the last few days, 
before which it was B85 and next week it will be B100 and so on and 
so forth until the cold weather forces me to blend again ;(.
The new processor works well as does the standpipe wash tank
http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=333), 
however the drill-pump should be replaced with a Pony Pump as it 
does not quite have enough "juice" to get it circulating properly 
without a little assistance. That is the next upgrade, a Pony Pump
www.northerntool.com - productId=16818. Once that is done I'll post 
my comments about performance. I had one before for water drawing 
from a well but it overheated easily, however it was another maker 
and I now have a better one scoped out for trial as soon as the $ 
permits.

L.





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Re: [biofuel] Dealerships?

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc]

Since the National Biodiesel Board in the USA is funded and has the 
mandate to promote biodiesel use, and has all the needed materials to 
convince, why not ask them to get a dialogue going with VW, pointing 
out the benefits to both parties, as well as end users, and the 
environment?

It seems to me VW could make a lot of low cost marketing/publicity 
points in North America, by being strongly supportive of biodiesel use.

Edward Beggs



On Aug 30, 2004, at 6:35 AM, Keith Addison wrote:

 I'd love to have a well-written list of talking points and materials
>>> to
 convince dealerships to promote diesel sales and biodiesel fueling.
 Suggestions?




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Re: [biofuel] Re: Environment

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc]

Thanks, Keith

Edward Beggs
http://www.biofuels.ca


On Aug 29, 2004, at 10:39 PM, Keith Addison wrote:

> Hi Ed
>
>> Hi Keith...
>>
>> DanghI should know this one...you told me before once, a
>> few eons ago, now you've used it twice in the last few days...
>>
>> CAWKI?
>
> :-) Twice? Did I? Oh right - sinister extreme leftwing conspiracies
> on the one hand and sheep farts and termites on the other, CAWKI
> can't possibly survive. Save the women and children first! We'll all
> be murdered in our beds! Bullets can't stop it, rockets can't stop it
> - we might have to use nukular forz!
>
> Um, sorry... I didn't want to puzzle anyone, but it is part of
> Internet usage, I didn't just make it up:
>
> CAWKI Civilization As We Know It
> http://www.acronymfinder.com/
> Acronym Finder: Find out what over 361,000 acronyms & abbreviations 
> stand for
>
> As a writer and editor I really don't like acronyms, but midst the
> chaos of the global Internet, WTH...
>
> Regards
>
> Keith
>
>
>> Edward Beggs
>> http://www.biofuels.ca
>>
>>
>> On Aug 29, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Keith Addison wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> they're a threat to CAWKI. Can't be us, after all, we wouldn't do a
>>> thing like that, must be nature, it's downright unnatural, it should
>>> be stopped.
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
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>
>
>
>
>




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Re: [biofuel] Transesterfication

[Appal Energy]

> >if there is FFA present in the waste oil, and both of them undergo
> >the transesterification, where will the unreacted FFA be present?
> >will the excess methanol and the lye be present all in the glycerine
> >layer? why?

FFAs undergo saponification (soap making). The glycerides undergo
transesterification.

The saponification takes place first and consumes catalyst, leaving no
unreacted FFAs. If the FFA content of the parent oil is not calculated
properly and too little catalyst is used, the transesterification reaction
will not go to completion.

Glycerol and methyl esters (biodiesel) are both solvent in methanol, meaning
that the methanol will reside in both products. Some free catalyst will
remain in the biodiesel layer. The majority of the catalyst will reside in
the glycerol cocktail layer bound up as soap.

> >FFA  reacts with the sodium hydroxide to produce COONa + water? is
> >it correct? if its true, where will these products formed be at? the
> >ester region or the glyerine layer?

The small amount of water that is formed will primarily reside in the
glycerol cocktail layer, as glycerol is far more solvent in water than is
biodiesel.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "ophelia~" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 8:27 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Transesterfication


> hi ppl...
>
> can anyone answer my questions?? thanks
>
> for the tranesterification,
> >
> >if there is FFA present in the waste oil, and both of them undergo
> >the transesterification, where will the unreacted FFA be present?
> >will the excess methanol and the lye be present all in the glycerine
> >layer? why?
> >
> >FFA  reacts with the sodium hydroxide to produce COONa + water? is
> >it correct? if its true, where will these products formed be at? the
> >ester region or the glyerine layer?
>
>  Yahoo! Messenger
> - Log on with your mobile phone!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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>
>
>
>
>
>



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[biofuel] Girl Mark's posts

[Keith Addison]

There aren't any.

Saturday, 28 Aug 2004:

> I'm going to write up my promised response to Keith sometime tomorrow
>when I get a chance.
>
>  Since there are several issues being, ahem, 'discussed', it's quite
>likely to come in to the Biofuel list at the end of the day as several long
>messages, with lots of quoting back and forth.

Etc.

All that arrived was yesterday's further distraction over word-counts 
and so on, and nothing since. It's now past 6am on Monday morning in 
California, that's quite long enough. More than - we shouldn't have 
been kept waiting for four days like this anyway, to resolve what so 
easily could and should have been quite a simple matter, while all 
this mayhem and smokescreening took place instead.

So, that's it. No more nonsense, no more anything. I'll post a couple 
of further messages, that'll wrap it up, and then the discussion is 
closed.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner



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Re: [biofuel] Transesterfication

[Keith Addison]

Hi Ophelia, welcome

>hi ppl...
>
>can anyone answer my questions?? thanks
>
>for the tranesterification,
> >
> >if there is FFA present in the waste oil, and both of them undergo
> >the transesterification, where will the unreacted FFA be present?
> >will the excess methanol and the lye be present all in the glycerine
> >layer? why?
> >
> >FFA  reacts with the sodium hydroxide to produce COONa + water? is
> >it correct? if its true, where will these products formed be at? the
> >ester region or the glyerine layer?

You need to read this below - there are two long web pages of it, 
it's worth your reading it all. For instance, you'll see headings 
there such as "How the process works" and "What are Free Fatty 
Acids?" but reading it all will help you to understand them clearly.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever
Three choices
1. Mixing it
2. Straight vegetable oil
3. Biodiesel
Biodiesel
Where do I start?
What's next?
The process
Our first biodiesel
Biodiesel from new oil
Biodiesel from waste oil
Washing
Using biodiesel
Safety
How much methanol?
Ethyl esters -- making ethanol biodiesel
Reclaiming excess methanol
More about lye
How much lye to use?
Basic titration
Better titration
Accurate measurements
pH meters
Phenolphthalein
High FFA levels
Deacidifying WVO
No titration?
The basic lye quantity -- 3.5 grams?
Mixing the methoxide
Test batches
Stock methoxide solution
How much glycerine? Why isn't it solid?
PET bottle mixers
Viscosity testing
How the process works
What are Free Fatty Acids?
Which method to use?
Why can't I start with the Foolproof method?
Quality
Quality testing
Other uses
Identifying plastics
Separating glycerine/FFAs

Best wishes

Keith



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Re: [biofuel] Old propane tanks

[Keith Addison]

Hi Greg

>I have a possible source of propane tanks that have failed 
>certification, and, might be able to get one or two at scrap prices. 
>I know to fill them with water to force out any propane than may 
>still be in them, so they don't explode when I go to cut/drill into 
>them.I figure that if I can locate a 40 lb tank, that has failed 
>certification, that it should make a processor that can handle about 
>20 gal at a time.
>
>Any advice as to converting them to a BioDiesel processor?

Ian's processor set-up is based on a 45 kilogram propane bottle. It's 
a nice set-up.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor2.html
Ian's vacuum biodiesel processor

Best wishes

Keith


>Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Old propane tanks

Greg Harbican wrote:

>I have a possible source of propane tanks that have failed certification, and, 
>might be able to get one or two at scrap prices.I know to fill them with 
>water to force out any propane than may still be in them, so they don't 
>explode when I go to cut/drill into them.I figure that if I can locate a 
>40 lb tank, that has failed certification, that it should make a processor 
>that can handle about 20 gal at a time.
>
>Any advice as to converting them to a BioDiesel processor?
>
>Greg H.
>  
>

Hi Greg,

On cutting or welding into any tank that contained a flammable liquid or 
gas, the best way is to flush the tank with the exhaust from a running 
gasoline powered engined vehicle; the older and more out of tune, the 
better. Make sure you have an inlet and outlet on the tank you're 
welding or cutting on. Connect a flexible hose from the exhaust pipe of 
the vehicle to one of the inlet holes in the tank you're working on, 
letting the exhaust flow in and then out the other hole. Run the exhaust 
for at least 10 minutes (longer for very large tank) before doing any 
cutting or welding. Run the exhaust the whole time you're working on the 
tank. What happens is the carbon monoxide in the exhaust combines with 
any oxygen in the tank to form carbon dioxide, which doesn't support 
combustion. No oxygen, no combustion, no potential explosion.

Using oxy-acetylene, I've cut open tanks and welded tanks containing 
gasoline, with gas still in the tank with absolutely no problem. 
Flushing with water and or soap and water for me hasn't worked in the 
past, where I did have a tank explode. Fortunately, I was fine; just 
singed my beard.

This information I've given you is for informational purposes. Use at 
your own risk.

Chris



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Re: [biofuel] Old propane tanks

[Greg Harbican]

I was thinking of painting the thing flo-orange and labeling it BioDiesel so it 
wouldn't be mistaken for a standard propane tank. 

I'm thinking it would be just killer if I can get a hold of a heavy steel 
200-250 lb tank for BioDiesel storage.  Local city ordnances allow the storage 
of kerosene in 55 gal plastic drum on back porch, so BioDiesel should not be an 
issue.  

Greg H.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Martin Klingensmith 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 07:43
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Old propane tanks


  Adding an over-pressure release valve couldn't hurt I would say.
  Labelling the tank as non-propane couldn't hurt either.
  --
  Martin Klingensmith


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] Old propane tanks

[Appal Energy]

Forgot to mention that if you do attempt pressurized esterifications (100
psi),

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do so by filling all vapor spaces with an inert gas
such as CO2 (inexpensive) to reduce the risk of explosions. Compressed air
(increased oxygen content) is not a wise choice for such a process.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Greg Harbican" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 1:06 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Old propane tanks


> I have a possible source of propane tanks that have failed certification,
and, might be able to get one or two at scrap prices.I know to fill them
with water to force out any propane than may still be in them, so they don't
explode when I go to cut/drill into them.I figure that if I can locate a
40 lb tank, that has failed certification, that it should make a processor
that can handle about 20 gal at a time.
>
> Any advice as to converting them to a BioDiesel processor?
>
> Greg H.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>



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Re: [biofuel] Old propane tanks

[Appal Energy]

Greg,

For both a pressurized esterification reactor at 100 psi or an atmospheric
reactor, they should work well. Worlds of difference between the fill
pressures of propane and the equivalent of what goes into a bicycle road
racing tire. The biggest reason why these tanks aren't recertified or fail
certification is that by the time their stand ring starts to rot out the
dealer is of the mind that their life cycle is almost up and it's
cheaper/easier to replace the tank than to repair/recertify it for only a
few more years use.

The nice things about these tanks is their dished top and bottom, which
allows for good separation of the glycerin cocktail from the fuel layer.
You'll probably want to install this tank upside down on a stand so as to
gain access for a center mounted circulation/transfer pump. Install two
entry ports for oil and methoxide on top. One can be used as a vent when
filling to prevent back splashing. Install an insulation blanket and you've
got something similar to the hot water tank processors that are being cooked
up elsewhere.

Propane has a nasty habit of impregnating every pore on the inside of tanks
and continually exuding for literally years after a tank has been abandoned.
You're right about displacing any gasses with water before cutting. If you
have access to a CO2 tank (diverted from a MIG welder?) you can keep a small
flow going into the tank so the water level is sufficiently apart from
wherever a torch or plasma cutter might be working. That will allow for a
quick and clean cut rather than the water pulling heat away as you cut

Two of these puppies in line would make a nice acid/base system

Todd Swearingen.

- Original Message - 
From: "Greg Harbican" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 1:06 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Old propane tanks


> I have a possible source of propane tanks that have failed certification,
and, might be able to get one or two at scrap prices.I know to fill them
with water to force out any propane than may still be in them, so they don't
explode when I go to cut/drill into them.I figure that if I can locate a
40 lb tank, that has failed certification, that it should make a processor
that can handle about 20 gal at a time.
>
> Any advice as to converting them to a BioDiesel processor?
>
> Greg H.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>



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Re: [biofuel] Old propane tanks

[Martin Klingensmith]

Adding an over-pressure release valve couldn't hurt I would say.
Labelling the tank as non-propane couldn't hurt either.
--
Martin Klingensmith

> I have a possible source of propane tanks that have failed certification,
> and, might be able to get one or two at scrap prices.I know to fill
> them with water to force out any propane than may still be in them, so
> they don't explode when I go to cut/drill into them.I figure that if I
> can locate a 40 lb tank, that has failed certification, that it should
> make a processor that can handle about 20 gal at a time.
>
> Any advice as to converting them to a BioDiesel processor?
>
> Greg H.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[biofuel] Transesterfication

[ophelia~]

hi ppl... 
 
can anyone answer my questions?? thanks
 
for the tranesterification,
>
>if there is FFA present in the waste oil, and both of them undergo 
>the transesterification, where will the unreacted FFA be present? 
>will the excess methanol and the lye be present all in the glycerine 
>layer? why?
>
>FFA  reacts with the sodium hydroxide to produce COONa + water? is 
>it correct? if its true, where will these products formed be at? the 
>ester region or the glyerine layer?

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Re: [biofuel] Dealerships?

[Keith Addison]

Hi Aaron

>Well said, I sometimes forget that the internet is available
>world-wide, despite the moniker "WWW".

:-) WWW? That means Kansas, doesn't it? Just kidding! You Americans 
have to take a bit of a ribbing about this sometimes, but we all love 
you just the same.

>I have had some good response from a local dealer, but not the
>dealership he works for.
>They were against it on the outside, but muttered under their breath
>that they liked BioD,
>the usual stuff about warranty and ASTM standards.

I guess people naturally resist something new, they don't like 
change, can't blame them for that. We were discussing this last night 
here with an industry person who came to dinner, sharing our 
networks. But it sounds like you can work with these people, it's not 
a closed door (and mind).

>I will continue to do my thing here in the states to find out the full
>story, and if warranted,
>write up a ditty on it.

Please do. Feel free to stir up a campaign here getting others to do 
the same if you like. Uphill work, but well worth doing, IMO.

>Thanks for the response.

You're most welcome.

Good luck, strength to yer arm.

Best wishes

Keith



>--Aaron
>
>
>On Aug 27, 2004, at 2:19 AM, Keith Addison wrote:
>
> > Hi Aaron, welcome
> >
> >  >With the major issues out on the table,
> >  >let's just move onward and forward, eh?
> >
> >  Sorry you arrive in the middle of a kerfuffle. It happens from time
> >  to time, there's no helping it. Obfuscation happens too,
> >  unfortunately, which only serves to prolong the agony, but it has to
> >  be dealt with.
> >
> >  >I'd like to change the subject to Volkswagen dealerships:
> >  >
> >  >Has anyone from Journey done any kind of outreach to local
> > dealerships
> >  >to get more info to the salespeople about the advantages of diesel? 
> > I
> >  >run biodiesel in my new 2004 Jetta TDI and wish my salesperson was
> > more
> >  >up on the idea.
> >  >I'd love to have a well-written list of talking points and materials
> > to
> >  >convince dealerships to promote diesel sales and biodiesel fueling.
> >  >Suggestions?
> >
> >  Not from us. Good idea, but we can't do that at Journey to Forever.
> >  We do a great deal of outreach and on-the-ground work here with a
> >  similar aim, but "here" is Japan, and the obstacles here are entirely
> >  different to those in the US. Where I've thought there was useful
> >  information that campaigners and acitivists in other countries might
> >  find useful I've posted it here, but none of it concerns dealerships.
> >
> >  That said, should US members succeed in compiling such a resource, we
> >  could probably post it at Journey to Forever for the use of all.
> >
> >  There are active members here from about a hundred countries or more,
> >  by the way, not just the US.
> >
> >  Best wishes
> >
> >  Keith Addison
> >  Journey to Forever
> >  KYOTO Pref., Japan
> > http://journeytoforever.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >  >Aaron
> >  >
> >  >[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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[biofuel] Old propane tanks

[Greg Harbican]

I have a possible source of propane tanks that have failed certification, and, 
might be able to get one or two at scrap prices.I know to fill them with 
water to force out any propane than may still be in them, so they don't explode 
when I go to cut/drill into them.I figure that if I can locate a 40 lb 
tank, that has failed certification, that it should make a processor that can 
handle about 20 gal at a time.

Any advice as to converting them to a BioDiesel processor?

Greg H.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] Re: Environment

[Todd Hershberger]

Edward,

I searched for it and came up with Civilization As We Know It.

Todd

On Aug 29, 2004, at 10:17 PM, Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote:

> CAWKI




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RE: [biofuel] OT (?) Diesel engine for Rover

[pieter van eeten]

Hi Andres,

Take a Look at www.landrovernet.com your very likely to find what you are 
looking for there with a search or if you ask for it receive lots of advice 
on how to proceed.

Grtz,
Pieter

>From: Andres Yver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [biofuel] OT (?) Diesel engine for Rover
>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:27:00 -0400
>
>Hi All,
>
>Hope this isn't off-topic.
>
>A friend wants to pay a debt with a Range Rover Classic. Might be
>useful as a tow vehicle for carting WVO. Strong frame. Am planning on
>hauling a 2000 liter tank.
>
>Problem is, it's a gasoline V8, auto transmission. Gasoline in Chile is
>about 85 cents a liter, or 3.25 a gallon.
>
>Propane is an option at 55 cents a liter or 2.10 a gallon.
>
>Makes much more sense to use our own biodiesel. To do this, an engine
>conversion is in order.
>
>The Rover/BMW turbo diesels aren't available here, but Ford Ranger
>pickups made in Argentina come with a 2.8 liter PowerStroke Tdi built
>by International (used to be Maxion, Brazil) which i am told is a
>further development of the 300tdi Rover engine.
>
>I'm working on finding a ZF bell-housing to see if this conversion is
>possible.
>
>Has anyone on-list converted their rover to diesel?
>
>thanks,
>andres yver
>
>
>
>
>
>

_
MSN Zoeken, voor duidelijke zoekresultaten! http://search.msn.nl




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Re: [biofuel] cars on ethanol?

[Keith Addison]

frag_lag wrote:

>Anyone have any experience or internet links dealing with running
>cars on pure alcohol/ethanol?
>
>I've only been able to find 2 links so far , 1 on journey to forever
>and 1 dealing with a beetle engine...
>
>I would like a lot more info!

It would help if you provided more. There's MUCH more information at 
Journey to Forever than that, but since you haven't said what you 
found, it makes it hard for me to point you to what you didn't find - 
though if you found anything you should have found everything else, 
it's all cross-linked. I suggest you have another look. Did you find 
all the information in the Biofuels Library for instance?

There's also a large amount of information in the list archives, 
among the 38,000-odd messages over the last five years, and in the 
Biofuels-biz list archives too:

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/

Seek and ye shall find.

Keith
Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/


>(best cars to convert , work involved (except increasing jet sizes)
>failures and successes too pls :)
>
>Thanks.



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Environment

[Keith Addison]

Hi Ed

>Hi Keith...
>
>DanghI should know this one...you told me before once, a
>few eons ago, now you've used it twice in the last few days...
>
>CAWKI?

:-) Twice? Did I? Oh right - sinister extreme leftwing conspiracies 
on the one hand and sheep farts and termites on the other, CAWKI 
can't possibly survive. Save the women and children first! We'll all 
be murdered in our beds! Bullets can't stop it, rockets can't stop it 
- we might have to use nukular forz!

Um, sorry... I didn't want to puzzle anyone, but it is part of 
Internet usage, I didn't just make it up:

CAWKI   Civilization As We Know It
http://www.acronymfinder.com/
Acronym Finder: Find out what over 361,000 acronyms & abbreviations stand for

As a writer and editor I really don't like acronyms, but midst the 
chaos of the global Internet, WTH...

Regards

Keith


>Edward Beggs
>http://www.biofuels.ca
>
>
>On Aug 29, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Keith Addison wrote:
>
> >
> > they're a threat to CAWKI. Can't be us, after all, we wouldn't do a
> > thing like that, must be nature, it's downright unnatural, it should
> > be stopped.



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Re: [biofuel] Re: Environment

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc]

Hi Keith...

DanghI should know this one...you told me before once, a 
few eons ago, now you've used it twice in the last few days...

CAWKI?

Edward Beggs
http://www.biofuels.ca


On Aug 29, 2004, at 11:28 AM, Keith Addison wrote:

>
> they're a threat to CAWKI. Can't be us, after all, we wouldn't do a
> thing like that, must be nature, it's downright unnatural, it should
> be stopped.
>




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Re: [biofuel] Dealerships?

[Aaron Campbell]

Well said, I sometimes forget that the internet is available 
world-wide, despite the moniker "WWW".
I have had some good response from a local dealer, but not the 
dealership he works for.
They were against it on the outside, but muttered under their breath 
that they liked BioD,
the usual stuff about warranty and ASTM standards.

I will continue to do my thing here in the states to find out the full 
story, and if warranted,
write up a ditty on it.

Thanks for the response.

--Aaron


On Aug 27, 2004, at 2:19 AM, Keith Addison wrote:

> Hi Aaron, welcome
>
>  >With the major issues out on the table,
>  >let's just move onward and forward, eh?
>
>  Sorry you arrive in the middle of a kerfuffle. It happens from time
>  to time, there's no helping it. Obfuscation happens too,
>  unfortunately, which only serves to prolong the agony, but it has to
>  be dealt with.
>
>  >I'd like to change the subject to Volkswagen dealerships:
>  >
>  >Has anyone from Journey done any kind of outreach to local 
> dealerships
>  >to get more info to the salespeople about the advantages of diesel?Ê 
> I
>  >run biodiesel in my new 2004 Jetta TDI and wish my salesperson was 
> more
>  >up on the idea.
>  >I'd love to have a well-written list of talking points and materials 
> to
>  >convince dealerships to promote diesel sales and biodiesel fueling.
>  >Suggestions?
>
>  Not from us. Good idea, but we can't do that at Journey to Forever.
>  We do a great deal of outreach and on-the-ground work here with a
>  similar aim, but "here" is Japan, and the obstacles here are entirely
>  different to those in the US. Where I've thought there was useful
>  information that campaigners and acitivists in other countries might
>  find useful I've posted it here, but none of it concerns dealerships.
>
>  That said, should US members succeed in compiling such a resource, we
>  could probably post it at Journey to Forever for the use of all.
>
>  There are active members here from about a hundred countries or more,
>  by the way, not just the US.
>
>  Best wishes
>
>  Keith Addison
>  Journey to Forever
>  KYOTO Pref., Japan
> http://journeytoforever.org/
>
>
>
>  >Aaron
>  >
>  >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >
>  > > Mark McElvy wrote:
>  > >
>  > >Ê >Just more of the same.
>  > >
>  > >Ê Uh-huh. What a thorough and incisive analysis.
>
>  
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>  Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
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>
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>
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[biofuel] Re: Filters and Keith's words on out disagreements

[Keith Addison]

>Keith, as you know, I'm on web-only delivery for the messages at this
>list, unless I email them to myself first.

No, I didn't know that. Why would I want to know that? I'm only 
interested in that if people have problems, and then I have to go to 
Yahoo to find out. The less time I waste at Yahoo's list controls the 
better I'm pleased.

>So because I dont have this
>stuff archived in my Eudora mail reader program, I just went through
>and cut-and-pasted into "Word" all the messages from the past week
>that you're asking me to respond to.

Two, actually. And the first one, which you still haven't responded 
to. And yes, there's also the other two earlier messages you didn't 
respond to that everyone's been trying to take no notice of, so I 
reposted them. But of course if you'd responded to the original 
message in the first place telling you to stop spamming none of this 
would have happened, would it? As Gustl said, and it's inescapable. 
Again (always have to do it again!!!):

>There  are 2 things I do not understand about this discussion.  First,
>is it not enough that a list moderator explains a rule of the list and
>asks  that it be adhered to?  If a moderator told me that on this list
>we  do such and such and do not allow such and such I would conform to
>the  regs  of  the  list whether I liked them or not.  This only seems
>reasonable to me.  If it offended me that much I would unsubscribe. As
>it  is  I  think  the moderators have good, solid reasoning behind the
>rules which guide the list.

You've just made it worse by generating all this tedious and ugly 
stuff - this "messy flood" - here and elsewhere.

>I put it into Word so I could
>print it out. Trying this (printing) was a mistake:
>
>Not counting my separate posts, not counting James or Gustl's or mine
>or Terry's or Pan_ruti's or anyone else's posts, Kieth alone has
>posted to this list, 23,095 words (my word processor gives a word
>count on it) in the past few days on the topics of me, netiquette,
>whether i"m 'promoting' something, whether or not I answered old
>messages where we disagreed, responses to Terry and Mark McElvy, and
>and a number of other points (this word count including untrimmed
>threads that just Keith alone re-posted).
>
>This came out to 70 pages of unformatted email in Word, all from one
>person (I of course then didn't print it, I was expecting about 5
>pages).
>
>Anyway I bring this up because the reason I posted 'Gentlemen, set
>your filters' is that peopel regularly complain on lists that high
>volumes of email are difficult for them to deal with, and because I
>knew I'd be sending out long stuff, replying in-line to Keith's long
>posts, etc.

That's really why you bring this up?

> James Slayden asked if this could be 'taken offlist'. I mistakenly
>thought that more people besides James had also said this onlist (I
>think they did, but not at [biofuel].
>
> My point about filters was meant for those people who didn't want to
>get flooded with long emails, and also for those who thought that this
>should be offlist, (of whom I mistakenly though there were more,
>requesting this publically). My opinion is that my filter message was
>taken to read as 'watch out Im going to post something nasty and you
>might not want to read it' or something like that. That was not what
>was meant at all.

I don't think anyone needs any reminding that this thread is nasty, 
nor what the subject titles are - though I see you've launched yet 
another new title rather than keeping it simple with the usual "Re:" 
response. Why isn't it titled "Re: Gentlemen, set your filters"? Why 
start yet another thread? That's five threads now instead of one, all 
started by you. But you're trying to make it easy for people?

If this were truly your concern here now, being considerate about 
bandwidth and possible annoyance, something like this would have been 
adequate:

"Some people have asked for it to be taken off-list and they'll be 
long replies, so I just wanted to warn them."

22 words and I wouldn't have had to reply. Instead it's 322 words, 
and I have to reply, yet a further 1,163 words, more waste.

No Mark, sorry, this is just more of the same from you. The reason 
you bring it up is to demonstrate that Keith has whipped up a huge 
flood of stuff that's annoyed everyone so you can pretend you're 
trying to save us all further trouble.

Word counts, eh? 23,095 words from me you say. Let's have a look then.

Earlier I posted a 193-word reply to Ken Provost listing the relevant 
urls up to then. It's here.
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/37900/

One purpose in doing that was to provide a handy reference for people 
so they could get it right before responding, hoping to cut down on 
the proliferating babble. And the growing smokescreen. With so many 
people deliberately getting it wrong, having that list there saved a 
lot of unnecessary requoting of what had gotten all twisted out of 
shape.

That url list included my origi

[biofuel] Filters and Keith's words on out disagreements

[skillshare]

Keith, as you know, I'm on web-only delivery for the messages at this 
list, unless I email them to myself first. So because I dont have this 
stuff archived in my Eudora mail reader program, I just went through 
and cut-and-pasted into "Word" all the messages from the past week 
that you're asking me to respond to. I put it into Word so I could 
print it out. Trying this (printing) was a mistake: 

Not counting my separate posts, not counting James or Gustl's or mine 
or Terry's or Pan_ruti's or anyone else's posts, Kieth alone has 
posted to this list, 23,095 words (my word processor gives a word 
count on it) in the past few days on the topics of me, netiquette, 
whether i"m 'promoting' something, whether or not I answered old 
messages where we disagreed, responses to Terry and Mark McElvy, and 
and a number of other points (this word count including untrimmed 
threads that just Keith alone re-posted). 

This came out to 70 pages of unformatted email in Word, all from one 
person (I of course then didn't print it, I was expecting about 5 
pages). 

Anyway I bring this up because the reason I posted 'Gentlemen, set 
your filters' is that peopel regularly complain on lists that high 
volumes of email are difficult for them to deal with, and because I 
knew I'd be sending out long stuff, replying in-line to Keith's long 
posts, etc.

 James Slayden asked if this could be 'taken offlist'. I mistakenly 
thought that more people besides James had also said this onlist (I 
think they did, but not at [biofuel].

 My point about filters was meant for those people who didn't want to 
get flooded with long emails, and also for those who thought that this 
should be offlist, (of whom I mistakenly though there were more, 
requesting this publically). My opinion is that my filter message was 
taken to read as 'watch out Im going to post something nasty and you 
might not want to read it' or something like that. That was not what 
was meant at all.

Mark







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[biofuel] biodiesel and fuel cells

[samot84]

Thought this might be of some interest: 
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage1053.html
It seems biodiesel can be used in fuel cells!



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[biofuel] cars on ethanol?

[frag_lag]

Anyone have any experience or internet links dealing with running 
cars on pure alcohol/ethanol?

I've only been able to find 2 links so far , 1 on journey to forever 
and 1 dealing with a beetle engine...

I would like a lot more info!

(best cars to convert , work involved (except increasing jet sizes)
failures and successes too pls :)

Thanks.




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