Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

2006-11-24 Thread Thomas Kelly 
Doug
 I like that "help a mate out" mentality.
 
 Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Doug Turner 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:55 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


  Tom:

  I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem.  I'm sure 
however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help you out.

  Doug
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Kelly
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


Joe,
 I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
 I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it 
will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg  .   problem: 
It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it.

 I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and 
the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite 
at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite.

 How do we heat the trap?  

 I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects     
some have stalled due to loss of interest    I've got to rally. 

 "Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really want to 
get off the meth;)"

 Ditto  
 Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as a wake-up call 
  ...  

 Good to hear from you
 Hope you're on the mend
 Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


  Hi Tom;

  I couldn't agree more.  I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters.  
That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for 
water are much tighter with ethyl esters production.  Don't forget about the 
castor oil method for drying alcohol.  I got some castor oil to experiment with 
but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much.  
Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really want to get off the 
meth;)

  Joe

  Thomas Kelly wrote:

Kurt,
 Thanks for the info.
 Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
 People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons 
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise 
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply 
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link 
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I 
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
 Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol 
production.
Thanks again,
   Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


  It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.

-Kurt

Thomas Kelly wrote:
 It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.

 Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
 Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
   Tom




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Se

Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol

2006-11-24 Thread AltEnergyNetwork 

Hi,

Here's some interesting info on methanol from wood

regards
tallex



Liquid fuels from wood - ethanol, methanol, diesel

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1991/zerbe91a.pdf



Methanol From Wood Waste: A Technical and Economic Study

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr12.pdf


Technical Aspects of Using Forest Biomass
Wood has been transformed to produce methanol or wood alcohol for over 350 years

http://www.cfr.washington.edu/research.Forest_Energy/fact_sheets/pdf/FactSheetbiomass_Final.pdf
 



These factories converted logs into charcoal, methanol (wood alcohol), and 
acetate of lime or acetic acid
http://www.smethporthistory.org/crosby/wood.htm











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>  ---Original Message---
>  From: Kurt Nolte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol
>  Sent: 24 Nov '06 02:38
>  
>  It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
>  gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
>  good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.
>  
>  -Kurt
>  
>  Thomas Kelly wrote:
>  >  It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.
>  >  
>  >  Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
>  >  Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
>  > produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
>  >Tom
>  >  
>  >
>  > 
>  >
>  > ___
>  > Biofuel mailing list
>  > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
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>  > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>  >
>  > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
> messages):
>  > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>  >
>  >  
>  
>  
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

2006-11-24 Thread Joe Street 

The Aussies no doubt!

J;)

Doug Turner wrote:


Tom:
 
I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem.  I'm 
sure however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help 
you out.
 
Doug


-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of *Thomas
Kelly
*Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Subject:* [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

Joe,
 I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
 I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I
think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer
keg  .   problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and
empty it.
 
 I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the

still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for
regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy
efficient and would not damage the zeolite.
 
 How do we heat the trap? 
 
 I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects 
   some have stalled due to loss of interest    I've got

to rally.
 
 "Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really

want to get off the meth;)"
 
 Ditto  
 Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as a
wake-up call   ... 
 
 Good to hear from you

 Hope you're on the mend
 Tom

- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street 
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org

*Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol

Hi Tom;

I couldn't agree more.  I have always planned to attempt ethyl
esters.  That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I
understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl
esters production.  Don't forget about the castor oil method
for drying alcohol.  I got some castor oil to experiment with
but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and
haven't done much.  Time to get back to it!  We should work
together.  I really want to get off the meth;)

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Kurt,
Thanks for the info.
Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons 
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise 
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply 
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link 
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I 
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol 
production.

   Thanks again,
  Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


 


It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.

-Kurt

Thomas Kelly wrote:
   


It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.

Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
  Tom




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Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

2006-11-24 Thread Joe Street 

Well Tom;
Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we 
discussed.  You could make a trap by welding or modifying a suitable 
pressure vessel.  I was thinking of using a scrapped fire extinguisher. 
Put  a fitting on the other end end and screens in the bottom to keep 
the seive pellets inside.  Wrap the whole thing with heater tape and 
fiberglass insulation.  That would be sweet but if you ever had a 
boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives..a risk I guess.
I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to do it?  
I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I 
think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If there was a high 
percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do 
something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating 
pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from 
the water below.  I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal 
is to move to ethyl eventually as well.


soon
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
 I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
 I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think 
it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg  
.   problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it.
 
 I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the 
still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for 
regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient 
and would not damage the zeolite.
 
 How do we heat the trap? 
 
 I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects  
   some have stalled due to loss of interest    I've got to 
rally.
 
 "Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really want 
to get off the meth;)"
 
 Ditto  
 Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as a wake-up 
call   ... 
 
 Good to hear from you

 Hope you're on the mend
 Tom

- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street 
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org

*Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol

Hi Tom;

I couldn't agree more.  I have always planned to attempt ethyl
esters.  That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I
understand the limits for water are much tighter with ethyl esters
production.  Don't forget about the castor oil method for drying
alcohol.  I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an
injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. 
Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really want

to get off the meth;)

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Kurt,
Thanks for the info.
Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons 
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise 
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply 
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link 
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I 
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol 
production.

   Thanks again,
  Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


 


It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.

-Kurt

Thomas Kelly wrote:
   


It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.

Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
  Tom




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Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
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Searc

Re: [Biofuel] Hope you're feeling better (was Making Mehtanol)

2006-11-24 Thread Joe Street 
A I slipped a disc here at work lifting something.  First time 
that's ever happened and I don't wish it on anyone.  I am much better 
now but have to be careful about lifting anything for a couple more 
months. Thanks for the well wishes!


Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
"Injury" ? .  "Laid up for a while" ?
 
I hope you're feeling better.
 
Tom
 
 




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Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

2006-11-24 Thread Doug Turner 
Tom:

I can understand how a keg full of beer could present a problem.  I'm sure
however that you will find some volunteers from this list to help you out.

Doug
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Kelly
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:00 PM
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Subject: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


  Joe,
   I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
   I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it
will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg  .
problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it.

   I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still
and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the
zeolite at temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the
zeolite.

   How do we heat the trap?

   I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects  
some have stalled due to loss of interest    I've got to rally.

   "Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really want to
get off the meth;)"

   Ditto
   Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as a wake-up
call   ...

   Good to hear from you
   Hope you're on the mend
   Tom
- Original Message -
From: Joe Street
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


Hi Tom;

I couldn't agree more.  I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters.
That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for
water are much tighter with ethyl esters production.  Don't forget about the
castor oil method for drying alcohol.  I got some castor oil to experiment
with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done
much.  Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really want to
get off the meth;)

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:

Kurt,
 Thanks for the info.
 Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
 People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
 Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol
production.
Thanks again,
   Tom

- Original Message -
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


  It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.

-Kurt

Thomas Kelly wrote:
 It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.

 Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
 Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
   Tom




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[Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

2006-11-24 Thread Thomas Kelly 
Joe,
 I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
 I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will 
distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer keg  .   problem: It's 
full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and empty it.

 I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the still and the 
condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at 
temps low enough to be energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite.

 How do we heat the trap?  

 I'm at the beginning, middle, end of about a dozen projects     some 
have stalled due to loss of interest    I've got to rally. 

 "Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really want to get 
off the meth;)"

 Ditto  
 Maybe this little methanol price "crisis" will serve as a wake-up call   
...  

 Good to hear from you
 Hope you're on the mend
 Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:58 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


  Hi Tom;

  I couldn't agree more.  I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters.  
That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits for 
water are much tighter with ethyl esters production.  Don't forget about the 
castor oil method for drying alcohol.  I got some castor oil to experiment with 
but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much.  
Time to get back to it!  We should work together.  I really want to get off the 
meth;)

  Joe

  Thomas Kelly wrote:

Kurt,
 Thanks for the info.
 Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
 People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons 
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise 
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply 
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link 
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I 
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
 Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol 
production.
Thanks again,
   Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


  It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.

-Kurt

Thomas Kelly wrote:
 It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.

 Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
 Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
   Tom




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Biofuel

[Biofuel] Hope you're feeling better (was Making Mehtanol)

2006-11-24 Thread Thomas Kelly 
Joe,
"Injury" ? .  "Laid up for a while" ?

I hope you're feeling better.

Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol

2006-11-24 Thread Joe Street 

Hi Tom;

I couldn't agree more.  I have always planned to attempt ethyl esters.  
That's one of the reasons I went for vacuum as I understand the limits 
for water are much tighter with ethyl esters production.  Don't forget 
about the castor oil method for drying alcohol.  I got some castor oil 
to experiment with but due to an injury I have been laid up for a while 
and haven't done much.  Time to get back to it!  We should work 
together.  I really want to get off the meth;)


Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Kurt,
Thanks for the info.
Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons 
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise 
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply 
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link 
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I 
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol 
production.

   Thanks again,
  Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


 


It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.

-Kurt

Thomas Kelly wrote:
   


It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.

Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
  Tom




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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

2006-11-24 Thread Joe Street 

I haven't seen any issues with the methanol attacking anything on the car.

Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
 I just got off the phone with my brother-in -law at the bus 
company. He said that his chemical supplier offered to send a 55 gal. 
drum of methanol to mix w roughly 160 gal of "summer" wash fluid. He 
asked me about it and I thought this was overkill, but in view of what 
you and Paul tell me it's probably about right (~25%).
 Doesn't the methanol, at 35 - 40%, damage the rubber seal on the 
edge of the window?
 
 The good news is  .  He thinks the chem. rep. said "Methanol 
is up to $3 (US)/gal"  vs   the best quote I got was $3.54/gal. Maybe 
I found a new, cheaper source of methanol.
 
  Tom


- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street 
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org

*Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 9:01 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

Hi Tom;

I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but  I
notice that on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the
fluid can momentarily freeze up on the windsheild after wiping
leaving streaks of ice.  The higher percentage doesn't do this. 


Joe

PAUL MILLER wrote:


Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35%
in the winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses
that strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below
-10F by several degrees.
 
Paul


- Original Message -
*From:* Thomas Kelly 
*To:* biofuel 
*Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
*Subject:* [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

Help if you can.
 
 I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+

gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How
much methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid
in order to prevent freezing to say 
-10F  (-23C) ?
 I will experiment as follows:
 Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it
freezes at
 Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it
freezes at
 Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the
desired results.
 
 I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has

a better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.
 
  
Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

2006-11-24 Thread Thomas Kelly 
Joe,
 I just got off the phone with my brother-in -law at the bus company. He 
said that his chemical supplier offered to send a 55 gal. drum of methanol to 
mix w roughly 160 gal of "summer" wash fluid. He asked me about it and I 
thought this was overkill, but in view of what you and Paul tell me it's 
probably about right (~25%).
 Doesn't the methanol, at 35 - 40%, damage the rubber seal on the edge of 
the window?

 The good news is  .  He thinks the chem. rep. said "Methanol is up to 
$3 (US)/gal"  vs   the best quote I got was $3.54/gal. Maybe I found a new, 
cheaper source of methanol.

  Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:01 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


  Hi Tom;

  I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but  I notice that 
on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the fluid can momentarily freeze 
up on the windsheild after wiping leaving streaks of ice.  The higher 
percentage doesn't do this.  

  Joe

  PAUL MILLER wrote:

Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the 
winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he 
does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees.

Paul
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


  Help if you can.

   I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of 
windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added 
to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say  
  -10F  (-23C) ?
   I will experiment as follows:
   Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it freezes at
   Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it freezes at
   Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results.

   I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has a better 
plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.

 Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol

2006-11-24 Thread Thomas Kelly 
Kurt,
 Thanks for the info.
 Doesn't sound like something I'll be doing at home.
 People get into producing their own BD for a variety of reasons 
including the feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise 
and can simply squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply 
could be the Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link 
between BD and fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I 
wish I could make it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source.
 Jim's reminder re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol 
production.
Thanks again,
   Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Kurt Nolte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Making Methanol


> It's possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural
> gas, but as I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a
> good bit of steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process.
>
> -Kurt
>
> Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>  It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood.
>>
>>  Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas?
>>  Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol
>> produced from it renewable and carbon neutral.
>>Tom
>>
>>
>> 
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences

2006-11-24 Thread Mike Weaver 
Eveywhere I 've been overseas I've run into Aussies - I've always had a 
good time travelling with them. 
Best line from a good friend (a Kiwi):  "Good God, man, you left the 
Aussies there with the beer?"

-Mike

leo bunyan wrote:

>Aussies: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad. 
>Canadians: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans when
>abroad. 
>Americans: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad. 
>Brits: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad. 
>Aussies: Believe you should look out for your mates. 
>Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong to 
>your club. 
>Americans: Believe that people should look out for & take care of
>themselves. 
>Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job. 
>
>Aussies: Are extremely patriotic to their beer. 
>Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic 
>to the point of blindness. 
>Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can be
>bothered to sing them. 
>Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the
>anthem. 
>
>Americans: Spend most of their lives
> glued to the idiot box. 
>Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more American 
>channels. 
>Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels. 
>Aussies: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there watches, 
>to Britain, where everybody loves them. 
>
>Americans: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, and
>basketball. 
>Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby. 
>Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, 
>hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball. 
>Aussies: Will jabber on incessantly about how they beat the Poms in 
>every sport they play them in. 
>
>Americans: Spell words differently, but still call it "English". 
>Brits: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it "English". 
>Canadians: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans. 
>Aussies: Add "G'day", "mate" and a heavy accent to everything they say 
>in
> an attempt to get laid. 
>
>Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an 
>island. 
>Aussies: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an
>island. 
>Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor 
>in a backwards country. 
>Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor 
>in a backwards country. 
>
>Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer. 
>Canadians: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer. 
>Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss. 
>Aussies: Drink anything with alcohol in it. 
>
>Americans: Seem to think that poverty & failure are morally suspect. 
>Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect. 
>Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are
>inherited things. 
>Aussies: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beers
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends 
> http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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[Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

2006-11-24 Thread D. Mindock 
Leo,
  Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in
my email inbox.  The story does have a moral, whether it's correct or not,
I not qualified to say.   
Peace, D. Mindock

11/23/2006 
The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
by Richard J. Marbury 

Each year at this time school children all over America are taught the official 
Thanksgiving story, and newspapers, radio, TV, and magazines devote vast 
amounts of time and space to it. It is all very colorful and fascinating. 

It is also very deceiving. This official story is nothing like what really 
happened. It is a fairy tale, a whitewashed and sanitized collection of 
half-truths which divert attention away from Thanksgiving's real meaning. 

The official story has the pilgrims boarding the Mayflower, coming to America 
and establishing the Plymouth colony in the winter of 1620-21. This first 
winter is hard, and half the colonists die. But the survivors are hard- working 
and tenacious, and they learn new farming techniques from the Indians. The 
harvest of 1621 is bountiful. The Pilgrims hold a celebration, and give thanks 
to God. They are grateful for the wonderful new abundant land He has given 
them. 

The official story then has the Pilgrims living more or less happily ever 
after, each year repeating the first Thanksgiving. Other early colonies also 
have hard times at first, but they soon prosper and adopt the annual tradition 
of giving thanks for this prosperous new land called America. 

The problem with this official story is that the harvest of 1621 was not 
bountiful, nor were the colonists hard-working or tenacious. 1621 was a famine 
year and many of the colonists were lazy thieves. 

In his History of Plymouth Plantation, the governor of the colony, William 
Bradford, reported that the colonists went hungry for years, because they 
refused to work in the fields. They preferred instead to steal food. He says 
the colony was riddled with "corruption," and with "confusion and discontent." 
The crops were small because "much was stolen both by night and day, before it 
became scarce eatable." 

In the harvest feasts of 1621 and 1622, "all had their hungry bellies filled," 
but only briefly. The prevailing condition during those years was not the 
abundance the official story claims; it was famine and death. The first 
"Thanksgiving" was not so much a celebration as it was the last meal of 
condemned men. 

But in subsequent years something changes. The harvest of 1623 was different. 
Suddenly, "instead of famine now God gave them plenty," Bradford wrote, "and 
the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the hearts of many, for 
which they blessed God." Thereafter, he wrote, "any general want or famine hath 
not been amongst them since to this day." In fact, in 1624, so much food was 
produced that the colonists were able to begin exporting corn.

What happened?

After the poor harvest of 1622, writes Bradford, "they began to think how they 
might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better crop." They began 
to question their form of economic organization. 

This had required that "all profits & benefits that are got by trade, working, 
fishing, or any other means" were to be placed in the common stock of the 
colony, and that, "all such persons as are of this colony, are to have their 
meat, drink, apparel, and all provisions out of the common stock." A person was 
to put into the common stock all he could, and take out only what he needed. 

This "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" was an 
early form of socialism, and it is why the Pilgrims were starving. Bradford 
writes that "young men that are most able and fit for labor and service" 
complained about being forced to "spend their time and strength to work for 
other men's wives and children." Also, "the strong, or man of parts, had no 
more in division of victuals and clothes, than he that was weak." So the young 
and strong refused to work, and the total amount of food produced was never 
adequate. 

To rectify this situation, in 1623 Bradford abolished socialism. He gave each 
household a parcel of land and told them they could keep what they produced, or 
trade it away as they saw fit. In other words, he replaced socialism with a 
free market, and that was the end of famines. 

Many early groups of colonists set up socialist states, all with the same 
terrible results. At Jamestown, established in 1607, out of every shipload of 
settlers that arrived, less than half would survive their first twelve months 
in America. Most of the work was being done by only one-fifth of the men, the 
other four-fifths choosing to be parasites. In the winter of 1609-10, called 
"The Starving Time," the population fell from five-hundred to sixty. 

Then the Jamestown colony was converted to a free market, and the results were 
every bit as dramatic as those at Plymouth. In 1614, Colony Secretary Ralph 
Hamor wrote that after the sw

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

2006-11-24 Thread Joe Street 

Hi Tom;

I think washer fluid typically contains 20 to 40% alcohol but  I notice 
that on the cold days if I use the lower percentage the fluid can 
momentarily freeze up on the windsheild after wiping leaving streaks of 
ice.  The higher percentage doesn't do this. 


Joe

PAUL MILLER wrote:

Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in 
the winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that 
strength he does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by 
several degrees.
 
Paul


- Original Message -
*From:* Thomas Kelly 
*To:* biofuel 
*Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
*Subject:* [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

Help if you can.
 
 I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+

gallons of windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much
methanol should be added to each gallon of washer fluid in order
to prevent freezing to say 
-10F  (-23C) ?
 I will experiment as follows:
 Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it freezes at
 Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it freezes at
 Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired
results.
 
 I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has a

better plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.
 
   Tom

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze

2006-11-24 Thread Thomas Kelly 
Paul,
 Thanks for the info  .35%   WOW!
 35 gal of methanol to 65 gal of summer wash fluid  ...  a lot of methanol
 No wonder demand for methanol increases in winter.

 Thanks again,
Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: PAUL MILLER 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


  Hi Tom:  A friend who mixes windshield wash commercially uses 35% in the 
winter.  That is plenty strong for Montana, but if he uses that strength he 
does not have to worry if the temp goes below -10F by several degrees.

  Paul
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Kelly 
To: biofuel 
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:33 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol as Windshield wash antifreeze


Help if you can.

 I have relatives that own a bus company. They have 150+ gallons of 
windshield wash fluid. It is not winterized. How much methanol should be added 
to each gallon of washer fluid in order to prevent freezing to say  
-10F  (-23C) ?
 I will experiment as follows:
 Small sample of fluid in freezer    check temp it freezes at
 Add measured amount of methanol  . check temp it freezes at
 Repeat until I get a vol:vol ratio that produces the desired results.

 I have other things to do tomorrow    if anyone has a better 
plan/knows the correct ratio it would be appreciated.

   Tom
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

2006-11-24 Thread FRANCISCO 
Tom and Jim
I understand. Thks.
Chic

Thomas Kelly wrote:

> Chic wrote:
> "Is it valid to assume prices have gone up do to pressure on 
> demand not cost build up reasons?"
>  
>  No. (Based on the best info I have)
>  The explanation I received from a representative of a chemical 
> supply company is consistent with the info at a site James Phelps 
> provided:
>  
> http://www.purchasing.com/article/CA6389243.html
>  
>  For various reasons there was an unexpected drop in methanol 
> production.
> The drop in supply coupled with continued demand  -> price increase.
>  This is similar to the helium shortage (almost thwarted the 
> Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade) due to two of the major producers 
> going "off line" at the same time   .  one unexpectedly; the other 
> to due routine yearly maintenance.
>  
>  The methanol price should return to a more reasonable level as 
> production resumes. Production is supposedly coming back. Before the 
> price drops, reduced reserves will have to be replenished.
>  
>  It would be interesting to plot monthly prices for methanol over 
> the past few years  .  see if there are months/seasons when the 
> price is low or high. The representative I talked to said that the 
> price he pays (northeastern US) goes up a bit during our winter months 
> due to increased demand for windshield washed fluid that is winterized 
> w. methanol.  Those of us who have the luxury of safe storage space 
> might consider buying an extra barrel or two when the price is low.
>  
>Tom
> 
>
>
>  
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* FRANCISCO 
> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:22 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>
> I assume the metanol demand world wide is increasing as biofuels
> production are increasing sharply. Is it valid to assume prices
> have gone up do to pressure on demand not cost build up reasons?
> VEry best
> Chic
>   
> VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM wrote:
>
>>It is my understanding that most of the methanol available in the US is 
>>produced from ethylene (petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices 
>>have gone up, but, I am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They 
>>probably will come back down in the near future since oil prices have 
>>moderated.
>>
>>The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
>>heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it 
>>is more difficult and costly.
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>>Hello All,
>>> Did I miss the news?
>>> Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
>>>recently?
>>>
>>> I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
>>>( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
>>>increase in a few months?
>>> I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
>>>mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  
>>>
>>>   Thanks,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving

2006-11-24 Thread D. Mindock 
Hi Leo,
   T-day is something that started with the pilgrims who came over 
from Europe to escape religious persecution. At least that's what I
think. Halloween is an old pagan holiday that refuses to go away.
It is also a time to celebrate the harvest of crops too. So the two
have blended. This is my take on it. But like most gringos I don't really 
don't know as much about our history as I'd like. 
Halloween seems to be growing in popularity here in the USA. I have
a couple friends who are witches, the nice kind. 
Peace and light, D. Mindock
  - Original Message - 
  From: leo bunyan 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:01 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving


  Thanksgiving is an american thing
  Down here in Oz we don't have it
  What does it mean???
  And while we are at it 
  what is halloween all about
  Leo

  "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks, Tom. Hope you had a good one. We did.
My wife received a gift of a huge chunk of pumpkin
yesterday. So she's making her fab soup with it. Looking forward
to some soup tomorrow. I got some Michelob Light and some artisan
bread, with ghee, to go with it.
Peace & light, D. Mindock
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:16 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving


  Happy Thanksgiving to All,
   May we all enjoy our Pumpkin Soup, a slab of Crusty Bread, and our 
favorite refreshment   .   James Phelps' suggestion of a Guiness appeals to 
me. 
 Best Wishes to All,
  Tom

--



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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Allah or Jesus?

2006-11-24 Thread leo bunyan 
I'm so glad this has come up again
As I have another beaut joke 
and seeing as my last one went down so well
 Here it is
"And then there was the dyslexic devil worshipper
He sold his soul to Santa"
Boom Boom
Have fun

Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't think so.  Alot of the native 
american rituals involved self mutilation in various forms, and I suspect they 
are similar or older or origin to Judaism.  And the emphasis on guilt from some 
christian sects (Catholicism comes to mind) could also be described as mental 
self mutilation, so I'm not sure that Judaism as any particular claim to that. 

On 11/23/06, Alon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi zeke
 little check up on reality pleas...
 Isn't judaism the first religion of self  mutilation.
 mutilation that could generate hidden and un hidden  hostilities within a 
person or a state?
 Alon.

  
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Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving

2006-11-24 Thread leo bunyan 
Thanksgiving is an american thing
Down here in Oz we don't have it
What does it mean???
And while we are at it 
what is halloween all about
Leo

"D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:   Thanks, Tom. Hope you had a  good 
one. We did.
 My wife received a gift of  a huge chunk of pumpkin
 yesterday. So she's making her fab soup  with it. Looking forward
 to some soup tomorrow. I got some  Michelob Light and some artisan
 bread, with ghee, to go with  it.
 Peace & light, D.  Mindock
- Original Message - 
   From:ThomasKelly 
   To: biofuel 
   Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:16AM
   Subject: [Biofuel] HappyThanksgiving
   

   Happy Thanksgiving to All,
May we allenjoy our Pumpkin Soup, a slab of Crusty Bread, and our 
favoriterefreshment   .   James Phelps' suggestion of aGuiness 
appeals to me. 
 Best Wishes to All,
  Tom
  

-


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