Re: [Biofuel] 12% renewable energie in electrical production by 2025

[Keith Addison]

I didn't think it was negative Chris. Four and a half hours isn't 
enough - but I know the feeling! I hope you get some rest soon. Take 
care - all best, Keith

>hi, keith.  sorry if my last post had a "negative nelly" tone.  didn't
>mean for it to sound that way, but didn't have the time to consider
>composition.  well, not now either.  not even in bed yet and i have to
>start all over again in 4 and a half hrs!  anyway, i hope you're right
>about ppl being ready.  doesn't really matter, though.  like the
>saying goes from hide and seek, "ready or not, here i come!"


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Re: [Biofuel] 12% renewable energie in electrical production by 2025

[Chris Burck]

hi, keith.  sorry if my last post had a "negative nelly" tone.  didn't
mean for it to sound that way, but didn't have the time to consider
composition.  well, not now either.  not even in bed yet and i have to
start all over again in 4 and a half hrs!  anyway, i hope you're right
about ppl being ready.  doesn't really matter, though.  like the
saying goes from hide and seek, "ready or not, here i come!"

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Re: [Biofuel] 12% renewable energie in electrical production by 2025

[Keith Addison]

Hi Chris

>couldn't agree w/you more, keith.  you reffed a quote earlier fron the
>rocky mtn inst, about efficiencies being the fossil fuel savings in
>recent decades, and that mostly those efficiencies didn't require
>behavioral changes.  this is precisely the problem.

Yes, a contstrained solution. But people are prepared to make 
behavioural changes now, IMHO. So much the better. With a little help 
from the empowerers that be, surely much can be achieved. Not much I 
can do about it though, from the other side of the world, so I 
brought it here.

All best

Keith

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Re: [Biofuel] 12% renewable energie in electrical production by 2025

[Chris Burck]

couldn't agree w/you more, keith.  you reffed a quote earlier fron the
rocky mtn inst, about efficiencies being the fossil fuel savings in
recent decades, and that mostly those efficiencies didn't require
behavioral changes.  this is precisely the problem.

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Re: [Biofuel] 12% renewable energie in electrical production by 2025

[Keith Addison]

Hello Fritz

>When i read your post,it seems to me that Biomass is wether woodchips
>or  sweetgrass  or

You mean switchgrass? It's much touted for so-called 
second-generation biofuels production (fuel for transport), but 
that's just pie in the sky (like oil from algae). I suppose it'll 
burn though.

But that brings us back to the "How much land?" question. Have you 
read the link I referred to?
"How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?"


>how about putting thins together and combine all of it.Including Manure
>and  humanwast !

Human waste is the only kind there is, all waste is human, nature 
never wastes anything. That's relevant in a discussion about energy, 
since most energy used in the US is wasted. I also reffed a quote by 
Lovins, saying that the biggest gains are to be made in improving 
energy efficiency.

But you mean sewage eh? "Humanure". It's a good point - do wastewater 
treatment plants produce excess methane that could be used for power 
generation?

Something like half the food supply is also wasted, and most of that 
probably ends up in landfills. There are projects that are harvesting 
methane from landfills. Is there any opportunity for that in Adams 
County? And if so, even if it were optimised for energy production, 
wouldn't it make for an even more favourable energy equation if all 
that food weren't wasted in the first place?

I agree with you about putting it all together, especially at the 
household level, and much more is possible than just persuading 
consumers to switch to compact fluorescents. A lot of people, for 
quite a long time now, but especially recently, are questioning the 
whole basis of consumerism itself, and whether they really want to be 
a part of it, and deciding that they don't want to be a part of it, 
and don't need to be, there are alternatives. That can and will 
change the whole nature of the marketplace, and to my mind at least, 
that's the best way to cut energy use. The greater the efficiency and 
the lower the demand, the easier the conversion to biofuels/biomass 
will be.

Best

Keith


>The 8% agricultural could be replaced by wood or other forest dropings
>Fritz
>
>
>>Hello all
>>
>>I really hope we can help Jim Chalker meet his target.
>>
>>Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now).
>>
>>All best
>>
>>Keith
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:56:11 -0400
>From: Jim Chalker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Organization: Adams County Office of Economic Development
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: About that algae
>
>Keith,
>
>I am the economic development director for a small, poor, rural
>Ohio county, Adams.  I am looking at the biofuels industry with
>the hope that it could transform our local economy.  But whenever
>I crunch the numbers my hopes are always dashed it seems.  Here in
>Ohio our state legislature jumped on the 25 by 25 bandwagon (at
>least halfway).  We have been committed to 12% renewable energy in
>electrical production by 2025.
>
>I looked into this to see if it would envigorate our timber
>industry.  If we harvest all the wood chips we can without
>exceeding sustainable harvest levels we can only meet 1/14th of
>the required biomass (assuming 100% efficient power stations - the
>reality is more like 40%).  Then I decided to look at switchgrass.
>We can meet the requirement, but only by diverting nearly 8% of
>our farmland away from food production to energy.  Food price
>inflation would be substantial, and that's the best case.
>
>The only hope I have left is algae.  The way I saw it, algae can
>step in to meet the energy needs of the power industry since it
>gets such spectacular yields.  In the early years of deployment we
>sell raw algae as biomass while the scientists keep working on
>extracting advanced biofuels from it.  But when I went searching
>for crop yield numbers I came away disappointed.  From the looks
>>  >>>of it algae may not yield much more per acre than switchgrass, and
>let's not even start mention the startup costs.
>
>So are we spinning our wheels or what?  Do you think algae can be
>commercially grown for biomass alone?  I would like to hear your
>thoughts.
>
>Jim Chalker
>Director of Economic Development
>Adams County, Ohio


Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:00:52 +0900
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: About that algae

It's all hype Jim. It just doesn't exist yet. See:

Ethanol from cellulose
>>  >>http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose

Oil from algae
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#alg

Sorry about that.

This is what we've often said:

"Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and
sustainable ene

Re: [Biofuel] 12% renewable energy in electrical production by 2025

[Chris Burck]

jim, it might be helpful if we understood better, under what sort of
policy constraints you are working.  what are your funding streams
(i.e. ballpark dollar amounts) and what kind of mandates/conditions
come attached to them?  i could go on.  basically, what i'm trying to
get at, how much lattitude do you have in terms of finding a solution?
 is anything "off the table"?

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[Biofuel] 12% renewable energie in electrical production by 2025

[Fritz]

When i read your post,it seems to me that Biomass is wether woodchips 
or  sweetgrass  or
how about putting thins together and combine all of it.Including Manure 
and  humanwast !
The 8% agricultural could be replaced by wood or other forest dropings
Fritz

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[Biofuel] 12% renewable energy in electrical production by 2025

[Keith Addison]

Hello all

I really hope we can help Jim Chalker meet his target.

Please respond onlist, not direct to Jim (he's a list member now).

All best

Keith


>>>Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:56:11 -0400
>>>From: Jim Chalker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Organization: Adams County Office of Economic Development
>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>Subject: About that algae
>>>
>>>Keith,
>>>
>>>I am the economic development director for a small, poor, rural 
>>>Ohio county, Adams.  I am looking at the biofuels industry with 
>>>the hope that it could transform our local economy.  But whenever 
>>>I crunch the numbers my hopes are always dashed it seems.  Here in 
>>>Ohio our state legislature jumped on the 25 by 25 bandwagon (at 
>>>least halfway).  We have been committed to 12% renewable energy in 
>>>electrical production by 2025.
>>>
>>>I looked into this to see if it would envigorate our timber 
>>>industry.  If we harvest all the wood chips we can without 
>>>exceeding sustainable harvest levels we can only meet 1/14th of 
>>>the required biomass (assuming 100% efficient power stations - the 
>>>reality is more like 40%).  Then I decided to look at switchgrass. 
>>>We can meet the requirement, but only by diverting nearly 8% of 
>>>our farmland away from food production to energy.  Food price 
>>>inflation would be substantial, and that's the best case.
>>>
>>>The only hope I have left is algae.  The way I saw it, algae can 
>>>step in to meet the energy needs of the power industry since it 
>>>gets such spectacular yields.  In the early years of deployment we 
>>>sell raw algae as biomass while the scientists keep working on 
>>>extracting advanced biofuels from it.  But when I went searching 
>>>for crop yield numbers I came away disappointed.  From the looks 
>>>of it algae may not yield much more per acre than switchgrass, and 
>>>let's not even start mention the startup costs.
>>>
>>>So are we spinning our wheels or what?  Do you think algae can be 
>>>commercially grown for biomass alone?  I would like to hear your 
>>>thoughts.
>>>
>>>Jim Chalker
>>>Director of Economic Development
>>>Adams County, Ohio
>>
>>
>>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:00:52 +0900
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Re: About that algae
>>
>>It's all hype Jim. It just doesn't exist yet. See:
>>
>>Ethanol from cellulose
>>http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose
>>
>>Oil from algae
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#alg
>>
>>Sorry about that.
>>
>>This is what we've often said:
>>
>>"Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and 
>>sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use 
>>(currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use 
>>efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the 
>>small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use 
>>of all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as 
>>the local circumstances require."
>>
>>Best wishes
>>
>>Keith Addison
>>Journey to Forever
>>KYOTO Pref., Japan
>>http://journeytoforever.org/
>
>
>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:00:52 +0900
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: About that algae
>
>Hello again Jim
>
>I know that wasn't very encouraging. It was very late and that was 
>the last thing I did before I fell over for the night, but I wanted 
>to put you off this false trail.
>
>I think you can achieve the 12/25 goal, and probably 25/25, or even 
>better. Have a look at this, for a start, it might give you some 
>ideas:
>
>"How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?"
>
>
>This, for instance:
>
>  >"Using existing technology we can save three fourths of all 
>electricity used today. The best energy policy for the nation, for 
>business, and for the environment is one that focuses on using 
>electricity efficiently," says Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain 
>Institute in the US.
>  >
>  >"More efficient use is already America's biggest energy source -- 
>not oil, gas, coal, or nuclear power. By 2000, reduced 'energy 
>intensity' (compared with 1975) was providing 40 percent of all U.S. 
>energy services. It was 73 percent greater than U.S. oil 
>consumption, five times domestic oil production, three times total 
>oil imports, and 13 times Persian Gulf oil imports. The lower 
>intensity was mostly achieved by more productive use of energy (such 
>as better-insulated houses, better-designed lights and motors, and 
>cars that were safer, cleaner, more powerful, and got more miles per 
>gallon), partly by shifts in the economic mix, and only slightly by 
>behavioral change. Since 1996, saved energy has been the nation's 
>fastest-growing major 'source.'"
>
>Many people are already working on these problems and finding 
>solutions, whether backyarders, local coops, farmers or whatever, 
>and many more would like to, especially in view of the current 
>deba