Re: [Biofuel] Overthrow

[Irwin Levinson]

Kieth
Good choice of reference to the role of the US and other countries in 
overthrowing "governments " of the world. I have to agree with those observers 
of the general economics,  that the major economic powers allow the powers 
behind the thrones of commerce, those of the leading companies, corporations 
and investors in agriculture, mining, manufacturing and transportation, drive 
world economics.  We give them titles as Advisors, and they run the World 
(using variables of emerging countries, revolutions, reorganizations, religious 
uprisings, land reform, economic revolutions and more) to maximize their 
earnings, power and control with the average people as their unknowing armies 
of change.
 Well done.
Irv Levnson.
 
-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Apr 23, 2006 12:58 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] Overthrow
>
>"There are those who argue that the United States has invaded 
>numerous countries without requiring instigation by Israel. This is 
>of course true, it's what the empire does for a living." -- William 
>Blum, The Anti-Empire Report, April 22, 2006
>http://members.aol.com/bblum6/aer32.htm
>
>http://members.aol.com/essays6/othrow.htm
>Overthrowing other people's governments: The Master List
>
>-
>
>http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2006/000237.html
>
>From: robert weissman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [corp-focus] Overthrow
>List-Subscribe: ,
>   
>
>OVERTHROW
>By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman
>
>Hawaii
>Cuba
>Philippines
>Puerto Rico
>Nicaragua
>Honduras
>Iran
>Guatemala
>South Vietnam
>Chile
>Grenada
>Panama
>Afghanistan
>Iraq
>
>What do these 14 governments have in common?
>
>You got it.
>
>The United States overthrew them.
>
>And in almost in every case, the overthrow can be traced to corporate
>interests.
>
>In Hawaii, the sugar companies didn't want to pay export duties -- so
>they overthrew the queen of Hawaii and made it part of the United States.
>
>In Guatemala, United Fruit wanted Arbenz out.
>
>Out he went.
>
>In Chile, Allende offended the copper interests.
>
>Allende -- dead.
>
>In Iran, Mossadegh offended major oil interests.
>
>Mossadegh out.
>
>In Nicaragua, Jose Santos Zelaya was bothering American lumber and
>mining companies.
>
>Zelaya -- out.
>
>In Honduras, an American banana magnate organized the coup of the
>Honduran government.
>
>And on down the list.
>
>Democratic Party critics charge that the Bush administration is ripping
>the United States from a long history of diplomacy by violently
>overthrowing governments.
>
>Not true, says former New York Times foreign correspondent Stephen Kinzer.
>
>Kinzer says that in fact the opposite is true.
>
>"Actually, the United States has been overthrowing governments for more
>than a century," Kinzer said in an interview.
>
>He documents this in a new book: Overthrow: America's Century of Regime
>Change from Hawaii to Iraq (Times Books, 2006).
>
>Overthrow is the third in a series of regime change books by Kinzer.
>
>His previous two: All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of
>Middle East Terror (2003), and Bitter Fruit: The Untold Story of the
>American Coup in Guatemala (1982).
>
>Together, they would make a remarkable "regime change" boxed set for the
>holidays.
>
>Kinzer left the Times last year. He says that the parting was "perfectly
>amicable" -- although he doesn't sound convincing when he says this.
>
>What is clear is that Kinzer is not comfortable with establishment
>rationales for the American imperial project.
>
>This became clear during an interview Kinzer gave on NPR's Fresh Air
>with Terry Gross earlier this month.
>
>Gross tried to get Kinzer to concede that if we hadn't overthrown these
>governments, the Soviets would have taken over, or today, radical Islam
>will take over.
>
>Kinzer didn't give an inch.
>
>For example, Gross said that had we not overthrown these 14 governments,
>"the Soviets might have won the Cold War."
>
>"I don't think that's true at all," Kinzer responded. "In the first
>place, the countries whose governments we overthrew, all countries that
>we claimed were pawns of the Kremlin, actually were nothing of the sort.
>We now know, for example, that the Kremlin had not the slightest
>interest in Guatemala at all in the early 1950s. They didn't even know
>Guatemala existed. They didn't even have diplomatic or economic relations."
>
>"The leader of Iran who we overthrew was fiercely anti-communist. He
>came from an aristocratic family. He despised Marxist ideology."
>
>"In Chile, we always portrayed President Allende as a cat's paw of the
>Kremlin. We now know from documents that have come out that the Soviets
>and the Chinese were constantly fighting with him and urging him to calm
>down and not be so provocative towards the Americans. So, in the first
>place, the Soviets were not

Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: "disinformation" Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Irwin Levinson]

Kieth
Sounds like the game of "telephone": each person whispering into anothers ear 
and periodically telling what they 
heard;  the morphing of messages from one to another "CEO TO BLADn TO BUSH" 
TAKES SO LONG BECAUSE the path is NOT LINEAL,  the messages path are 3D and of 
course loopy, maybe even ribosomic and possibly sexual; GOOD luck.
Irv
*
-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: May 10, 2006 3:58 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of 
>Nukes on Iran
>
>Lots of people are commenting that Americans are waking up en masse.
>
>One view I get of it comes from what many American applicants to join 
>the list tell listadmin.
>
>In the last year the numbers of applicants rose steadily overall, a 
>considerably steeper rise than a year previously. The global 
>distribution remains the same - very global!
>
>There were always a number of these people among the US contingent:
>
>>Results of previous PIPA/Knowledge Networks poll [May 04]:
>>
>>- A 57% majority believed Iraq was either "directly involved" in
>>carrying out the 9/11 attacks or had provided "substantial support"
>>to al-Qaeda
>>- 82% either said that "experts mostly agree Iraq was providing
>>substantial support to al Qaeda" or "experts are evenly divided on
>>the question"
>>- 45% believe that evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda 
>>has been found
>>- 60% believe that just before the war Iraq either had weapons of
>>mass destruction or a major program for developing them
>>- 65% said most experts say Iraq did have them or that experts are
>>divided on the question
>>- estimates of the number of US troop fatalities in Iraq varied widely
>>- 59% were unaware that the majority of world public opinion is
>>opposed to the US war with Iraq
>>- asked how many nuclear weapons the U.S. has, the median estimate
>>was 200 (the actual number is 6,000)
>>
>>These beliefs are closely correlated with intentions to vote for Bush.
>
>They often give personal detail, but there tends to be a sameness of 
>view. They'd often tell listadmin they were interested in biofuels 
>because they didn't want to put their money in the pockets of 
>terrorists.
>
>Over the last eight months it's been changing, there's a curve.
>
>It changed from terrorists to terrorist nations, and then to unstable 
>Middle Eastern regimes. Muslims continued to be favourite unpopular 
>people not to put your money in the pockets of (and worse). Around 
>that time (post-Katrina) people also started mentioning environmental 
>benefits as a possible by-product of using biofuels. Then the actual 
>amount they didn't want to give to whoever it was started getting 
>much more important as the gas price rose, but the environment got 
>more important too, even unto climate change. Climate change slowly 
>started changing into global warming, and everything got more intense 
>as the gas price kept rising. The number of people who just wanted to 
>(or had to) save money rose with it. Government started creeping up 
>the unpopularity chart, though mostly only obliquely mentioned, and 
>it hasn't made it to the bigtime yet. More recently, indepence from 
>foreign oil shot right up, displacing unstable Middle Eastern 
>regimes, which fell right down in unpopularity. Foreign oil is still 
>right up there, but it was joined by Big Oil companies, and then by 
>ExxonMobil, and then by ExxonMobil's retiring CEO with his $400 
>million gold watch.
>
>Just think of that: Osama bin Laden just morphed into the CEO of 
>ExxonMobil. Ain't that something.
>
>Nobody has yet said they want to make biodiesel because they hate 
>Iran. (But they have said that about Saudi Arabia.) Iraq comes into 
>it occasionally but never the Iraqis, except maybe as being not worth 
>investing more dead soldiers in. Oil and war are sometimes linked, 
>especially more recently.
>
>"What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIODIESEL?"
>
>LOL!
>
>It's a list joke. That's what these folks used to say here, and some 
>still do. Some who hate ExxonMobil's CEO still say that.
>
>They're moved by memes, as Godwin would say. Just because they think 
>something new now doesn't mean they've worked anything much else out 
>yet. It doesn't even mean they're aware they thought (felt) something 
>different yesterday.
>
>Can you project the curve forward? Who is it they're going to end up 
>wanting to make biodiesel so they don't have to put money in his 
>pocket?
>
>An interesting glimpse.
>
>The only thing I'll bet on is that it won't be Osama bin Laden.
>
>By the way, I'm not being disparaging, I really don't like it when 
>people sneer at "sheeple". But when you're watching social movement 
>it's the tide that counts, more than the drops of wat

Re: [Biofuel] BIOFUEL REPORT

[Irwin Levinson]

 
Biodiesel Guys
HERE IS A REPORT ON BIODIESEL BY A CHEMIST INVOLVED IN PRODUCING THE CONPONENTS IN THE US; ITS BEING GIVEN AS OUTLINED BELOW; ANY BODY IN THE CHICAGO AREA INTERESTED IN SAME SHOULD BE THERE.
Irv Levinson
 
Monday, September 11th:  On The Road Again: The Biodiesel Journey
 
Summary:
 
Three key forces-- politics of global warming, economics of global petrochemicals, and interests of regional agribusiness—are coming into alignment and have created an opportunity for the rapid growth of biodiesel produced from fats and oils.  There is a land-rush underway, and the winners will be those who have an understanding of the chemistry and process technologies necessary to access multiple feedstocks, as well as the capability to utilize the products and by-products in markets that can absorb the inevitable fluctuations in raw material and product pricing.  Further, producers will need the ability to adjust to changes in regional, national, and international incentive structures as they impact the very local marketplace.  The oleochemical supply chain is not well connected today to the petro-diesel supply chain, and so a steep learning curve and capital infusion is occurring to address the quality, performance, and supply issues.
 
Matt Levinson Bio:
 
Dr. Matthew Levinson received his Ph.D. in Chemistry from the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA in 1984 and completed the 162nd session of the Advanced Management Program at the Harvard Business School in 2002.  He has worked in the chemical processing industry since 1983 spending 3 years in the Agricultural Chemical Group of FMC Corporation in Princeton, NJ, and 1 year with ANGUS Chemical in Northbrook, IL before joining Stepan Company, Northfield, IL in 1987.   At Stepan he has held various positions within the Surfactant Research & Development Department including 5 years in the Synthesis Group, and 13 years in ascending leadership roles within the Product Development Group through the position of V.P. of Product Development-Surfactants, supporting all of the consumer and industrial applications of the Stepan’s surfactant product line.  In 2005 he took on the position of V.P. Global Process Development, leading the department responsible for the development, scale-up, implementation and support for all new and existing chemical processes practiced in Stepan’s 15 global manufacturing facilities for both the Surfactant and Polymer businesses.  He is an inventor and co-inventor on numerous patents, published journal articles and reviews, and podium presentations delivered to technical and professional associations affiliated with the surfactants industry.
 
TMAC’s September meeting will be held at Wellington of Arlington just north of I90 on Arlington Heights Road:
 
Wellington of Arlington
2121 South Arlington Heights Road (east side of road, set well back from two adjoining buildings)
Arlington Heights, IL   60005
847.439.6610/Barbara
www.WellingtonBanquets.com
 
Networking begins at 5 pm, followed by dinner and the presentation.  Cost for dinner/meetings is $35 for Members, Guests of Members and Member Proxies, and $45 for all others.  We encourage you to consider supporting TMAC by becoming a Member for an annual fee of $45.  For more information and to register, please visit our website at
 
http://www.TechnologyManagementChicago.org
 
If the website hasn’t been updated before you get to it, just go to the registration page. You can also use the non-member charge of $45 to pay your 2006-7 membership dues. Just send me a note and it will be recorded as such.
 
About TMAC
 
TMAC consists of managers from companies with extensive R&D capabilities, technology entrepreneurs, and anyone interested in keeping their business apprised of emerging technologies. At each meeting there is a presentation by a company, researcher, or other expert on topics of interest, with an emphasis on keeping members informed of new technologies and business practices of use to technical managers. TMAC provides an opportunity to network with other key technologists and entrepreneurs in the Chicago Metropolitan area.  The complexity of today’s business environment coupled with the diverse technologies necessary to develop new and innovative products or services can be served through this indirect network, offering access to complimentary knowledge that can lead to information and knowledge advantages. The meetings consist of a social/networking hour from 5 to 6 pm, dinner from 6 to 7 pm, and a presentation with interactive Q&A’s from 7 to 8 pm.
 


Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. 

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Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation

[Irwin Levinson]

Kieth
Have you worked out the following(?):
The US will use the last drop of oil from where-ever else: (North sea, mid 
east, Khazakstazhn, Nigeria, Venezuala, etc.) before we (the US) use the last 
drops of oil in the US and territories.  Think of that particular foreign 
policy as the ultimate well secretified hidden foreign policy of the Nixon, 
Reagan, Bush, Bush and future Admins.  and the true underpinning of  US 
military adventures in every country or land mass.  The future depends on OIL, 
as if colonialism wasn't/isn't enough.  If and when biofuels take the majority 
"energy and lube" dependency expect no-less from foreign policy, than to follow 
suite.
Irv

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sep 27, 2006 6:31 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>
>http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/09/21/taking_oil_out_of_the_equation.php
>TomPaine.com -
>Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>
>Michael T. Klare
>
>September 21, 2006
>
>
>
>Michael T. Klare is a professor of peace and world security studies 
>at Hampshire College and the author of Blood and Oil: The Dangers and 
>Consequences of America's Growing Dependency on Imported Petroleum 
>(Owl Books).
>
>In his September 11 address to the nation, President Bush declared 
>that the war against on terror is the "decisive ideological struggle 
>of the 21st century," pitting the ideals of Western civilization 
>against a "perverted vision of Islam." Bush is certainly correct that 
>ideology plays a critical role in the war on terror and that this 
>struggle cannot be won if Washington fails in the "battle of ideas" 
>(which its abysmal record in Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo is helping to 
>ensure). But ideology is only part of the equation.
>
>Just as significant, if far less acknowledged, is the relationship 
>between oil and Islamic extremism. If it weren't for our dependence 
>on Middle Eastern oil, we wouldn't project such a conspicuous and 
>over-bearing presence in the Middle East-and it is this presence, 
>more than anything else, that has generated the toxic 
>anti-Americanism on which al-Qaida feeds. Doing better in the battle 
>of ideas is not enough; if we ever hope to prevail in the war on 
>terror, we must also remove oil from the strategic equation.
>
>To fully appreciate the relationship between America's oil dependency 
>and contemporary Middle Eastern terrorism, it is necessary to know 
>something about the historical trajectories of both. Prior to World 
>War II, the United States had very little official presence in the 
>Persian Gulf area-at that time we were self-sufficient in oil, and in 
>any case were content to allow Great Britain to control the region. 
>But President Franklin D. Roosevelt correctly surmised that the 
>United States would eventually become dependent on imported oil as 
>our domestic reserves were drained, and so he set out to establish 
>American control over a major foreign source of supply-eventually 
>selecting Saudi Arabia to assume this role.
>
>On February 14, 1945, he met with King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud aboard a 
>U.S. warship in the Suez Canal and forged an oil-for-protection 
>arrangement under which the United States pledged to defend the Saudi 
>royal family in return for privileged access to Saudi petroleum 
>reserves. All else that has occurred in the Gulf, including 9/11, has 
>followed from this fateful encounter.
>
>To carry out the terms of the 1945 Roosevelt-Ibn Saud agreement, 
>successive American presidents deployed an ever-larger U.S. military 
>presence in the region and helped establish both the Saudi Royal Army 
>and the Saudi Arabian National Guard (SANG), responsible for internal 
>security. The growing U.S. military presence was coupled with the 
>growing presence of American oil companies, which helped turned Saudi 
>Arabia into the world's leading producer. With fields in most other 
>parts of the world in decline-the United States reached its "peak," 
>or maximum sustainable output in 1971-production from the Persian 
>Gulf became increasingly essential for the smooth operation of the 
>global economy.
>
>The conspicuous presence of American soldiers and oil company 
>personnel in the Gulf area was not without its detractors, however. 
>Many devout Muslims saw this as an unwelcome intrusion of 
>non-believers in the Islamic heartland, and others saw it as a form 
>of imperialism. America's close association with Israel was also a 
>source of irritation for many. Still, it was the British who first 
>experienced the intractable wrath of Islamic militants: when 
>state-controlled British Petroleum (BP) refused to cede control over 
>its refinery at Abadan in southwestern Iran, the company's vast 
>Iranian assets were nationalized by Prime Minister Mossadegh in 1951 
>with strong support from the Muslim clergy. Lond

Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation

[Irwin Levinson]

Randall,
Sorry I left out the guys you mentioned, occasionally I forget that the oil 
poicy is a part of the Hoover and FDR legacy and every president simply wants 
the best for Americans, including someone else's oil.

Irv
***
-Original Message-
>From: Randall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sep 28, 2006 9:47 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>
>Irv,
>
>I think you might want to change that equation to: Nixon, Ford, Carter, 
>Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and likely most future presidents...perhaps even 
>going back a bit futher even...
>
>--Randall
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Irwin Levinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>
>
>Kieth
>Have you worked out the following(?):
>The US will use the last drop of oil from where-ever else: (North sea, mid 
>east, Khazakstazhn, Nigeria, Venezuala, etc.) before we (the US) use the 
>last drops of oil in the US and territories.  Think of that particular 
>foreign policy as the ultimate well secretified hidden foreign policy of the 
>Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Bush and future Admins.  and the true underpinning of 
>US military adventures in every country or land mass.  The future depends on 
>OIL, as if colonialism wasn't/isn't enough.  If and when biofuels take the 
>majority "energy and lube" dependency expect no-less from foreign policy, 
>than to follow suite.
>Irv
>
>-Original Message-
>>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Sep 27, 2006 6:31 AM
>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>>
>>http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/09/21/taking_oil_out_of_the_equation.php
>>TomPaine.com -
>>Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>>
>>Michael T. Klare
>>
>>September 21, 2006
>>
>>
>>
>>Michael T. Klare is a professor of peace and world security studies
>>at Hampshire College and the author of Blood and Oil: The Dangers and
>>Consequences of America's Growing Dependency on Imported Petroleum
>>(Owl Books).
>>
>>In his September 11 address to the nation, President Bush declared
>>that the war against on terror is the "decisive ideological struggle
>>of the 21st century," pitting the ideals of Western civilization
>>against a "perverted vision of Islam." Bush is certainly correct that
>>ideology plays a critical role in the war on terror and that this
>>struggle cannot be won if Washington fails in the "battle of ideas"
>>(which its abysmal record in Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo is helping to
>>ensure). But ideology is only part of the equation.
>>
>>Just as significant, if far less acknowledged, is the relationship
>>between oil and Islamic extremism. If it weren't for our dependence
>>on Middle Eastern oil, we wouldn't project such a conspicuous and
>>over-bearing presence in the Middle East-and it is this presence,
>>more than anything else, that has generated the toxic
>>anti-Americanism on which al-Qaida feeds. Doing better in the battle
>>of ideas is not enough; if we ever hope to prevail in the war on
>>terror, we must also remove oil from the strategic equation.
>>
>>To fully appreciate the relationship between America's oil dependency
>>and contemporary Middle Eastern terrorism, it is necessary to know
>>something about the historical trajectories of both. Prior to World
>>War II, the United States had very little official presence in the
>>Persian Gulf area-at that time we were self-sufficient in oil, and in
>>any case were content to allow Great Britain to control the region.
>>But President Franklin D. Roosevelt correctly surmised that the
>>United States would eventually become dependent on imported oil as
>>our domestic reserves were drained, and so he set out to establish
>>American control over a major foreign source of supply-eventually
>>selecting Saudi Arabia to assume this role.
>>
>>On February 14, 1945, he met with King Abdul Aziz ibn Saud aboard a
>>U.S. warship in the Suez Canal and forged an oil-for-protection
>>arrangement under which the United States pledged to defend the Saudi
>>royal family in return for privileged access to Saudi petroleum
>>reserves. All else that has occurred in the Gulf, including 9/11, has
>>fol

Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation

[Irwin Levinson]

Thank for your response;
 Yes the oil policy of the US was presented in simplistic terms, but it's 
essence is not simplistic.  Control of all fuels, through controling their 
sources, by either military dominance or world bank (economic) means will be a 
major policy. As long as any material (producing energy) is or can be 
concentrated by naturaL location (growing) or processing, it will be a target 
for control, take over, profit and power. The biomass from every farmer is 
jeffersonian in your concept. 
Just look at yesterdys little spinach fiasco. Think of the Ford rubber 
plantations, Biomass will be EVEN BIGGER BUSINESS as are the massive food farms 
of today, and if bio-oil never becomes "organic", the great oil farms of the 
future will be militarized.  
Yes, I have done the math on total carbon cost; and yes the idea of central 
control of "growing energy" is to me  mind boggling; but domination of land 
masses by small groups will still take place.  We dwell in a never, neverland, 
if we expect to be liberated by my small patch of oilmaryjane.  We need to 
reign in those who bask in power and would dominate future politics by 
fertilizer, processing and usage. 
Unfortunately we grow those people as well.

Irv






-Original Message-








>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>






>Sent: Sep 29, 2006 11:36 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>
>Hello Irv
>
>>Kieth
>
>Keith.
>
>>Have you worked out the following(?):
>
>Actually you should be arguing with Michael Klare, he wrote it, not me.
>
>Anyway, we've been discussing that here since 2001, you'll find many 
>previous posts from me and others about it in the archives if you 
>care to look. I think your conclusion is a little simplistic though. 
>Biofuels doesn't fit into the big central paradigm, or rather it's 
>the other way round, it's big central that doesn't fit. Fuel miles 
>are a no-no, just like food miles, and that will become a hard 
>reality just as soon as carbon starts costing what it really costs 
>(have you worked out the implications of that yet?). For biofuels, 
>make it and use it where you grow it, the more local (and thus 
>smaller) the better (cheaper and more efficient). Such a prospect 
>fails to paint a happy scenario fraught with opportunity for the 
>likes of HaliMobil.
>
>Have you worked out this?
>
>"How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?"
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch
>
>If I read you right you talk of US foreign policy and military 
>adventures riveting their attention on biofuels resources, but a 
>recent US military study found that future wars to secure oil will 
>have to be powered by locally produced bioenergy. They were talking 
>logistics not geopolitics, but, while you can muscle in on other 
>people's oilfields, what will you do when every peasant in the world 
>turns out to be sitting on an oilwell?
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>
>>The US will use the last drop of oil from where-ever else: (North 
>>sea, mid east, Khazakstazhn, Nigeria, Venezuala, etc.) before we 
>>(the US) use the last drops of oil in the US and territories.  Think 
>>of that particular foreign policy as the ultimate well secretified 
>>hidden foreign policy of the Nixon, Reagan, Bush, Bush and future 
>>Admins.  and the true underpinning of  US military adventures in 
>>every country or land mass.  The future depends on OIL, as if 
>>colonialism wasn't/isn't enough.  If and when biofuels take the 
>>majority "energy and lube" dependency expect no-less from foreign 
>>policy, than to follow suite.
>>Irv
>>* 
>>***
>>-Original Message-
>> >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Sent: Sep 27, 2006 6:31 AM
>> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >Subject: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>> >
>> >http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/09/21/taking_oil_out_of_the_e 
>>quation.php
>> >TomPaine.com -
>> >Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>> >
>> >Michael T. Klare
>> >
>> >September 21, 2006
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Michael T. Klare is a professor of peace and world security studies
>> >at Hampshire College and the author of Blood and Oil: The Dangers and
>> >Consequences of America's Growing Dependency on Imported Petroleum
>> >(Owl Books).
>> >
>> >In his September 11 address to the nation, President Bush declared
>> >that the war against on terror is the "decisive ideological struggle
>> >of the 21st century," pitting the ideals of Western civilization
>> >against a "perverted vision of Islam." Bush is certainly correct that
>> >ideology plays a critical role in the war on terror and that this
>> >struggle cannot be won if Washington fails in the "battle of ideas"
>> >(which its abysmal record in Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo is helping to
>> >ensure). But ideology is only part of the equation.
>> >
>> >Just as significant, if far less acknowledged, i

Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation

[Irwin Levinson]

Explanation time:
"Jeffersonian" in this case is the individual farm development of (private 
production) of bioenergy by market need, and not control by "governmental" 
planning. "oilmaryjane " is combined reference to the concept of growing local 
Bioenergy for ones specific need.  And your right, I do not know your views, as 
I went through the attached analysis of the middle easten crisis development, I 
knew the current attachment to fix locations of oil are dependant on geograpy 
and deprived population. I guess I leaped into the future... where such 
bioenergy could be grown anyhere, liberating users from specific geograpic 
providers.  Questioning what would then happen? if as I believe, even with 
judicious cutbacks, human populations will continue to grow and use even more 
energy. I visioned the bioenergy sources of the future under management of the 
dominant forces of the future and knowing mankind, I was not excited.
I will try to be more judacious in the future
Irv.

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sep 29, 2006 10:39 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>
>Hello Irv
>
>The great oil farms of the future will be militarized, LOL! It seems 
>you didn't bother to read the link I gave you, nor take much notice 
>of what I said about the US military study either. Oh well, too bad.
>
>Sorry, the word "jeffersonian" means nothing to me, but if you didn't 
>read the link how could you know what my concept is? And what does 
>"oilmaryjane" refer to? Please explain what you mean by this and why 
>you said it.
>
>Keith
>
>
>>Thank for your response;
>> Yes the oil policy of the US was presented in simplistic terms, but 
>>it's essence is not simplistic.  Control of all fuels, through 
>>controling their sources, by either military dominance or world bank 
>>(economic) means will be a major policy. As long as any material 
>>(producing energy) is or can be concentrated by naturaL location 
>>(growing) or processing, it will be a target for control, take over, 
>>profit and power. The biomass from every farmer is jeffersonian in 
>>your concept.
>>Just look at yesterdys little spinach fiasco. Think of the Ford 
>>rubber plantations, Biomass will be EVEN BIGGER BUSINESS as are the 
>>massive food farms of today, and if bio-oil never becomes "organic", 
>>the great oil farms of the future will be militarized.
>>Yes, I have done the math on total carbon cost; and yes the idea of 
>>central control of "growing energy" is to me  mind boggling; but 
>>domination of land masses by small groups will still take place.  We 
>>dwell in a never, neverland, if we expect to be liberated by my 
>>small patch of oilmaryjane.  We need to reign in those who bask in 
>>power and would dominate future politics by fertilizer, processing 
>>and usage.
>>Unfortunately we grow those people as well.
>>
>>Irv
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>
>>
>> >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> >Sent: Sep 29, 2006 11:36 AM
>> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>> >
>> >Hello Irv
>> >
>> >>Kieth
>> >
>> >Keith.
>> >
>> >>Have you worked out the following(?):
>> >
>> >Actually you should be arguing with Michael Klare, he wrote it, not me.
>> >
>> >Anyway, we've been discussing that here since 2001, you'll find many
>> >previous posts from me and others about it in the archives if you
>> >care to look. I think your conclusion is a little simplistic though.
>> >Biofuels doesn't fit into the big central paradigm, or rather it's
>> >the other way round, it's big central that doesn't fit. Fuel miles
>> >are a no-no, just like food miles, and that will become a hard
>> >reality just as soon as carbon starts costing what it really costs
>> >(have you worked out the implications of that yet?). For biofuels,
>> >make it and use it where you grow it, the more local (and thus
>> >smaller) the better (cheaper and more efficient). Such a prospect
>> >fails to paint a happy scenario fraught with opportunity for the
>> >likes of HaliMobil.
>> >
>> >Have you worked out this?
>> >
>> >"How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?"
>> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch
>> >
>> >If I read you right you talk of US foreign policy and military
>> >adventures riveting their attention on biofuels resources, but a
>> >recent US military study found that future wars to secure oil will
>> >have to be powered by locally produced bioenergy. They were talking
>> >logistics not geopolitics, but, while you can muscle in on other
>> >people's oilfields, what will you do when every peasant in the world
>> >turns out to be sitting on an oilwell?
>> >
>> >Best
>> >
>> >Keith
>> >
>> >
>> >>The US will use the last drop of oil from where-ever else: (North
>> >>sea, mid east, Khazakstazhn, Nigeria, Venezuala, etc.) before we
>> >>(the US) use the last drops of oil in the US and territories.  

Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation

[Irwin Levinson]

Jeffersonian is not exactly as written below
My reference is the concept of free local production  in accordance with market 
need; a Hamitonion reference woud be a social control and planning approach.


WIKAPEDIA REMARKS: NOT IRVS REFERENCES
[original Jeffersonian thought also had agrarian elements, and believed that 
the farmer should be the backbone of any nation, supplying it with a strong 
work ethic, virtue, and connection with God.]

{Jeffersonian economics
Jeffersonians agrarians held that the economy of the United States should rely 
more on agriculture for strategic commodities, than on industry. Jefferson 
specifically believed "Those who labor in the earth are the chosen people of 
God, if ever he had a chosen people, whose breasts He has made His peculiar 
deposit for genuine and substantial virtue."}


-Original Message-
>From: Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sep 30, 2006 1:41 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>
>keith,
>umm... i dont know if im helping or not, but i found a link to 
>"jeffersonian" in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffersonian
>its not a direct link, but it is a "disambiguation" page that links to five 
>other stubs. i read some of it and its actually pretty interesting trying to 
>figure out where we went wrong...
>Jason
>ICQ#:  154998177
>MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 10:39 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>
>
>Hello Irv
>
>The great oil farms of the future will be militarized, LOL! It seems
>you didn't bother to read the link I gave you, nor take much notice
>of what I said about the US military study either. Oh well, too bad.
>
>Sorry, the word "jeffersonian" means nothing to me, but if you didn't
>read the link how could you know what my concept is? And what does
>"oilmaryjane" refer to? Please explain what you mean by this and why
>you said it.
>
>Keith
>
>
>>Thank for your response;
>> Yes the oil policy of the US was presented in simplistic terms, but
>>it's essence is not simplistic.  Control of all fuels, through
>>controling their sources, by either military dominance or world bank
>>(economic) means will be a major policy. As long as any material
>>(producing energy) is or can be concentrated by naturaL location
>>(growing) or processing, it will be a target for control, take over,
>>profit and power. The biomass from every farmer is jeffersonian in
>>your concept.
>>Just look at yesterdys little spinach fiasco. Think of the Ford
>>rubber plantations, Biomass will be EVEN BIGGER BUSINESS as are the
>>massive food farms of today, and if bio-oil never becomes "organic",
>>the great oil farms of the future will be militarized.
>>Yes, I have done the math on total carbon cost; and yes the idea of
>>central control of "growing energy" is to me  mind boggling; but
>>domination of land masses by small groups will still take place.  We
>>dwell in a never, neverland, if we expect to be liberated by my
>>small patch of oilmaryjane.  We need to reign in those who bask in
>>power and would dominate future politics by fertilizer, processing
>>and usage.
>>Unfortunately we grow those people as well.
>>
>>Irv
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>
>>
>> >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>> >Sent: Sep 29, 2006 11:36 AM
>> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Taking Oil Out Of The Equation
>> >
>> >Hello Irv
>> >
>> >>Kieth
>> >
>> >Keith.
>> >
>> >>Have you worked out the following(?):
>> >
>> >Actually you should be arguing with Michael Klare, he wrote it, not me.
>> >
>> >Anyway, we've been discussing that here since 2001, you'll find many
>> >previous posts from me and others about it in the archives if you
>> >care to look. I think your conclusion is a little simplistic though.
>> >Biofuels doesn't fit into the big central paradigm, or rather it's
>> >the other way round, it's big central that doesn't fit. Fuel miles
>> >are a no-no, just like food miles, and that will become a hard
>> >reality just as soon as carbon starts costing what it really costs
>> >(have you worked out the implications of that yet?). For biofuels,
>> >make it and use it where you grow it, the more local (and thus
>> >smaller) the better (cheaper and more efficient). Such a prospect
>> >fails to paint a happy scenario fraught with opportunity for the
>> >likes of HaliMobil.
>> >
>> >Have you worked out this?
>> >
>> >"How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?"
>> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch
>> >
>> >If I read you right you talk of US foreign policy and military
>> >adventures riveting their attention on biofuels resources, but a
>> >recent US military study found that future wars to secure oil will
>> >have to be powered by locally produced bioenergy. They were talking
>> >logistics not geopolitics, but, while you can muscle

Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels eat into China's food stocks written up side down

[Irwin Levinson]

As usual as a technology begins and has a success, analysis of the current 
results encourages projections to the future.  This is natural and expected, 
But the future is, and can be rosey or not depending upon the resourses put in 
to  it. especially the "Mathematics or the algorythms" used. A small base often 
leads to projected early limits  and disaster,  The beginnings of biofuel are 
small, expansion must be slow and various plants other than the current bio 
masses begin to be assessed. From current normal mass growth items as corn, 
wheat, rye, soy, one can go to all pine, wild plants, rice, tree bark, rubber 
plant waste, olive and fruit tree waste and as you think of it ANY carbon 
growth with cellulose will and can be turned to alcohol.  The chinese are at 
the beginning and the journalist paints a dark picture at the very start.
 Too bad.
Irv

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jan 5, 2007 10:47 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuels eat into China's food stocks
>
>http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/HL21Cb03.html
>Asia Times Online :: China Business News -
>China Business
>
> Dec 21, 2006
>
>Biofuels eat into China's food stocks
>By Antoaneta Bezlova
>
>BEIJING - China's biofuel industry is booming thanks to voracious 
>demand for energy to power the country's high-flying economy. 
>Applying modernized versions of ancient chemical processes to convert 
>crops and oils into energy sources, Chinese entrepreneurs have 
>created a profitable "green business" with plenty of room to grow.
>
>But worried over surging crop prices, China is now clamping down on 
>the use of corn (maize) and other edible grains for producing
>
> 
>
>biofuel. While it wants to support the growth of alternative energy 
>sources, Beijing says the issue of national food security should take 
>precedence over the country's green agenda.
>
>"In China the first thing is to provide food for its 1.3 billion 
>people, and after that, we will support biofuel production," the 
>state-run newspaper People's Daily quoted Wang Xiaobing, an official 
>at the Agriculture Ministry's Crops Cultivation Department, as saying 
>this week.
>
>China has been encouraging the production of biofuels such as ethanol 
>and methane from renewable resources to reduce the country's growing 
>dependence on imported oil. Once an exporter, China now imports at 
>least 43% of its oil supply.
>
>Biofuel is also seen as an environmentally friendly substitute to 
>pollution-producing oil. Chinese economic planners have made the 
>development of green energies such as ethanol fuel and biodiesel a 
>key priority in the country's five-year economic plan. By 2020 they 
>want green energies to account for 15% of all transportation fuels.
>
>Yet surging demand for biofuel is now partly blamed for recent price 
>hikes in the food market and for shortages in grain stocks. Wheat 
>prices are at their highest level in a decade, due to poor harvests 
>in key producing countries such as the United States and Australia, 
>while corn prices have surged by up to 20% in local markets.
>
>Beijing has begun auctioning some of its wheat reserves to halt the 
>rise in crop prices and prevent panic among the public. Despite 
>predictions that this year would see another bumper harvest, 
>government officials feel compelled to restrict the use of corn for 
>producing biofuel.
>
>"We have a principle with biofuel: it should neither impact on the 
>people's grain consumption, nor should it compete with grain crops 
>for cultivated land," the People's Daily quoted Yang Jian, director 
>of the Development Planning Department under the Agriculture 
>Ministry, as saying.
>
>Government officials estimate that corn contributes about 
>three-fourths of the raw material used for making ethanol in China. 
>The output of ethanol fuel is projected at 1.3 million tonnes this 
>year, according to the China Daily. Experts say, however, that output 
>from private and public producers this year may reach 5 million 
>tonnes.
>
>With biofuel demand booming, existing producers have been ramping up 
>production and new players have been entering the market. They made 
>only 1 million tonnes of ethanol fuel in 2005 but by 2010 China's 
>ethanol-fuel production may reach as high as 10 million tonnes, local 
>press reports say.
>
>As biofuel is produced from renewable biological resources, what 
>government officials worry is that overcapacity may lead to a 
>shortage of edible grains and feedstock supplies. This has already 
>happened with cornstalk used in ethanol production. Cornstalk prices 
>in China have jumped 500% to US$30 per tonne since 2005.
>
>The same is now happening with corn. Industrial processing in China 
>consumed 23 million tonnes of corn in 2005, an annual increase of 
>16.5% from 2001, while corn production increased 

Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels eat into China's food stocks written up side down

[Irwin Levinson]

I'll  put itsimply; all the cellulose on cellulose containg plants whether the are digestable by man or beast can be turned into alcohol;  Not just the normal grains and their associates Think of it. All the other stuff.
every pre used piece of  wood, paper,every common plant including most weeds and most phyla are possible sources of alcohol, Time, engineering and use will determine the materials and pathways of conversion to fuel.  The petroleum pathway may be limited from  natures previous work, but with sunlight, oxygen,water and carbon dioxide we can grow fuel.  if we want to, or eat it or use it as needed.  The article tends to pre judge this approach.Irv
-Original Message- From: M&K DuPree l<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Jan 6, 2007 8:46 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels eat into China's food stocks written up side down 


Not sure what you're saying Irwin.  Or maybe I am and I disagree.  I am certainly open to correction if I have misunderstood you.  However, according to the article, "'In China the first thing is to provide food for its 1.3 billion people, and after that, we will support biofuel production,' the state-run newspaper People's Daily quoted Wang Xiaobing, an official at the Agriculture Ministry's Crops Cultivation Department, as saying this week."  What's wrong with that?  What's wrong with our first order of business being sticking our hands into the dirt and planting seeds and weeding the garden?  Our reliance on the convenience of mechanical transportation and any earth-based energy source required to move it (except of course human bone and muscle for bicycles) is killing Ma Nature and ultimately ourselves as climate change destroys our means of food security.  With all due respect to the List and producers of biofuels, "the first thing is to provide food...and after that, (I) will support biofuel production."  Mike DuPree
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Irwin Levinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels eat into China's food stocks written up side down
> As usual as a technology begins and has a success, analysis of the current results encourages projections to the future.  This is natural and expected, But the future is, and can be rosey or not depending upon the resourses put in to  it. especially the "Mathematics or the algorythms" used. A small base often leads to projected early limits  and disaster,  The beginnings of biofuel are small, expansion must be slow and various plants other than the current bio masses begin to be assessed. From current normal mass growth items as corn, wheat, rye, soy, one can go to all pine, wild plants, rice, tree bark, rubber plant waste, olive and fruit tree waste and as you think of it ANY carbon growth with cellulose will and can be turned to alcohol.  The chinese are at the beginning and the journalist paints a dark picture at the very start.> Too bad.> Irv> > -Original Message->>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>Sent: Jan 5, 2007 10:47 AM>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>Subject: [Biofuel] Biofuels eat into China's food stocks>>>>http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/HL21Cb03.html>>Asia Times Online :: China Business News ->>China Business>>>> Dec 21, 2006>>>>Biofuels eat into China's food stocks>>By Antoaneta Bezlova>>>>BEIJING - China's biofuel industry is booming thanks to voracious >>demand for energy to power the country's high-flying economy. >>Applying modernized versions of ancient chemical processes to convert >>crops and oils into energy sources, Chinese entrepreneurs have >>created a profitable "green business" with plenty of room to grow.>>>>But worried over surging crop prices, China is now clamping down on >>the use of corn (maize) and other edible grains for producing>>>> >>>>biofuel. While it wants to support the growth of alternative energy >>sources, Beijing says the issue of national food security should take >>precedence over the country's green agenda.>>>>"In China the first thing is to provide food for its 1.3 billion >>people, and after that, we will support biofuel production," the >>state-run newspaper People's Daily quoted Wang Xiaobing, an official >>at the Agriculture Ministry's Crops Cultivation Department, as saying >>this week.>>>>China has been encouraging the production of biofuels such as ethanol >>and methane from renewable resources to reduce the country

Re: [Biofuel] DISTILLERY DEMAND FOR GRAIN TO FUEL CARS VASTLY UNDERSTATED

[Irwin Levinson]

Whew
price of torteas in mexico has just gone up now that the US is no longer 
exporting cheap corn to mexico. I t may encourage Mexican farmers to grow more 
corn.

Irv

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jan 20, 2007 9:18 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] DISTILLERY DEMAND FOR GRAIN TO FUEL CARS VASTLY 
>UNDERSTATED
>
>Take a bow, Zeke, bravo - too many people who should know better have 
>been getting that wrong, including Lester Brown.
>
>>Now, using corn for fueling cars does sound like a lousy idea, but 
>>not because it might increase corn prices. Considering that corn now 
>>sells for only about two thirds of what it costs to grow it, I don't 
>>see this is such a bad thing.  Maybe farmers around the world could 
>>support themselves again?  And perhaps if economics had any effect 
>>on farms they'd be tempted to shift to better crops, instead of 
>>monocropping corn as a subsidized chemical plant input.  The corn 
>>economy in the US is so messed up and bizzare, I don't know that I 
>>can support using corn for anything anymore, let alone ethanol.
>
>This is from a discussion at the Bioenergy list of the CS Monitor 
>report on Brown's article (most of the mainstream media covered it):
>
>>>Perhaps there is a Silver Lining to the Cloud... The shortage or 
>>>absence of heavily subsidized export corn could now permit local 
>>>producers to grow corn for their local markets.
>>
>>That is exactly correct. The only really progressive aspect of the 
>>corn ethanol policy is that it takes US corn out of world export 
>>commodity markets. Small farmers in every developing country in the 
>>world greatly benefit when the US gets out of the export farm 
>>commodity business.
>
>Plenty of good information on that at Global Issues, eg, and in the 
>list archives.
>http://www.globalissues.org/
>Global Issues That Affect Everyone
>
>But Lester Brown talks of the "world food economy" and says food 
>prices everywhere will be affected as the world corn price rises. 
>"The competition for grain between the world's 800 million motorists 
>who want to maintain their mobility and its 2 billion poorest people 
>who are simply trying to survive is emerging as an epic issue." He 
>also cites trading prices on the corn and wheat futures markets, and 
>warns: "It is not only food prices that are at stake, but trends in 
>the Nikkei Index and the Dow Jones Industrials as well." Arghh! LOL!
>
>Unfortunate trends in the Nikkei Index and the Dow Jones Industrials 
>probably won't hurt the 2 billion poorest people any more than this 
>helped them:
>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/01/07/cnftse07.xml
>FTSE100 companies see profits double [in four years]
>
>Whatever happens to Dow Industrials they'll still have to live on 
>less than $2 a day (it's 3 billion, actually).
>
>David Pimentel reaches some of his tortured conclusions about ethanol 
>via similar misconceptions that the world's poor and hungry depend 
>for their survival on US grain production. See:
>http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html#argu
>Pimentel's arguments
>
>Here are some facts about this so-called food that the ever-guilty 
>rich folks are planning to guzzle in their SUVs and so on while 
>billions starve. First a couple more myths:
>
>>"We have the ability in the United States to grow the grain to feed 
>>the world" -- Allen Anderson, Chairman of the MARC 2000 coalition of 
>>agribusiness and transportation interests, testimony before the 
>>Senate Agriculture, Nutrition and Forestry Committee, April 30, 1998
>>
>>"Our mission is to feed and nourish a growing world population" -- 
>>Archer Daniels Midland, multinational grain trading company, 
>>November 22, 1999
>>
>>"Helping farmers grow a wide variety of goods to feed a growing 
>>world" -- Cargill, Inc, multinational grain trading company, 
>>November 22, 1999
>
>However...
>
>>- For every one ton of US corn exported in 1996 to one of the 25 
>>countries with the world's most serious malnutrition problems 
>>(Category 5 countries, with at least 35 percent of the population 
>>undernourished), 260 tons were exported to a wealthy Organization 
>>for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) country.
>>
>>- 20 percent of the total US corn crop is exported; two-thirds of 
>>these exports go directly to the 28 industrial OECD countries, where 
>>it is mostly used for feeding animals.
>>
>>- 76 percent of the corn used in the US is used for animal feed.
>>
>>- Less than three-tenths of one percent of total US corn exports 
>>went to the poor Category 5 countries in 1996.
>>
>>- Less than three percent of total US corn exports in 1996 went to 
>>the 24 Category 4 countries (where undernourishment affects at least 
>>20 percent of the population).
>>
>>- More US corn goes to make alcoholic beverages in the US than is 

Re: [Biofuel] Homage to a good man

[Irwin Levinson]

KIeth
Good show
V has spoken before but his targets the, PP, were less distinct.G Bush, son, VP 
 and companies, have not only Iraq blood on their hands but US soldiers blood 
as well! and yet their crimes are still in motion. When they (our PP's) are 
sure the oil spouts are secure, then maybe they'll ease off.

Irv Levinson

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Apr 15, 2007 2:03 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [Biofuel] Homage to a good man
>
>http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/12/470/
>Kurt Vonnegut, Novelist Who Caught the Imagination of His Age, Is Dead at 84
>
>--
>
>http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13659.htm
>
>Custodians of chaos
>
>In this extract from his forthcoming memoirs, Kurt Vonnegut is 
>horrified by the hypocrisy in contemporary US politics
>
>By Kurt Vonnegut
>
>06/17/06 "Information Clearing House"  -- -- "Do unto others what you 
>would have them do unto you." A lot of people think Jesus said that, 
>because it is so much the sort of thing Jesus liked to say. But it 
>was actually said by Confucius, a Chinese philosopher, five hundred 
>years before there was that greatest and most humane of human beings, 
>named Jesus Christ.
>
>The Chinese also gave us, via Marco Polo, pasta and the formula for 
>gunpowder. The Chinese were so dumb they only used gunpowder for 
>fireworks. And everybody was so dumb back then that nobody in either 
>hemisphere even knew that there was another one.
>
>We've sure come a long way since then. Sometimes I wish we hadn't. I 
>hate H-bombs and the Jerry Springer Show.
>
>But back to people like Confucius and Jesus and my son the doctor, 
>Mark, each of whom have said in their own way how we could behave 
>more humanely and maybe make the world a less painful place. One of 
>my favourite humans is Eugene Debs, from Terre Haute in my native 
>state of Indiana.
>
>Get a load of this. Eugene Debs, who died back in 1926, when I was 
>not yet four, ran five times as the Socialist party candidate for 
>president, winning 900,000 votes, almost 6 percent of the popular 
>vote, in 1912, if you can imagine such a ballot. He had this to say 
>while campaigning:
>
>"As long as there is a lower class, I am in it.
>
>"As long as there is a criminal element, I am of it.
>
>"As long as there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
>
>Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great 
>public schools, or health insurance for all?
>
>When you get out of bed each morning, with the roosters crowing, 
>wouldn't you like to say. "As long as there is a lower class, I am in 
>it. As long as there is a criminal element, I am of it. As long as 
>there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
>
>How about Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes?
>
>Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth.
>
>Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
>
>Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
>
>And so on.
>
>Not exactly planks in a Republican platform. Not exactly George W 
>Bush, Dick Cheney, or Donald Rumsfeld stuff.
>
>For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the 
>Beatitudes. But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the 
>Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course that's 
>Moses, not Jesus. I haven't heard one of them demand that the Sermon 
>on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere.
>
>"Blessed are the merciful" in a courtroom? "Blessed are the 
>peacemakers" in the Pentagon? Give me a break!
>
>It so happens that idealism enough for anyone is not made of perfumed 
>pink clouds. It is the law! It is the US Constitution.
>
>But I myself feel that our country, for whose Constitution I fought 
>in a just war, might as well have been invaded by Martians and body 
>snatchers. Sometimes I wish it had been. What has happened instead is 
>that it was taken over by means of the sleaziest, low-comedy, 
>Keystone Cops-style coup d'état imaginable.
>
>I was once asked if I had any ideas for a really scary reality TV 
>show. I have one reality show that would really make your hair stand 
>on end: "C-Students from Yale".
>
>George W Bush has gathered around him upper-crust C-students who know 
>no history or geography, plus not-so-closeted white supremacists, aka 
>Christians, and plus, most frighteningly, psychopathic personalities, 
>or PPs, the medical term for smart, personable people who have no 
>consciences.
>
>To say somebody is a PP is to make a perfectly respectable diagnosis, 
>like saying he or she has appendicitis or athlete's foot. The classic 
>medical text on PPs is The Mask of Sanity by Dr Hervey Cleckley, a 
>clinical professor of psychiatry at the Medical College of Georgia, 
>published in 1941. Read it!
>
>Some people are born deaf, some are born blind or whatever, and this 
>book is about congenitally defective human

Re: [Biofuel] Iran May Be The Greatest Crisis Of Modern Times

[Irwin Levinson]

Oportunities to divide the middle east nations are always observed and 
exploited by the Major capitalists, and their client states.  Oil control 
equals  power in todays world.  OPEC, is allowed to exist as they dance to the 
US tune.  Sour notes by Iran, Iraq and Nigeria and Venezuala always risk their 
usefulness to their controling audience ie. US, Japanese, Britain, Australia, 
Korea and soon to be China.
Irv

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Apr 15, 2007 1:03 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] Iran May Be The Greatest Crisis Of Modern Times
>
>http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17522.htm
>
>Iran May Be The Greatest Crisis Of Modern Times
>
>By John Pilger
>
>04/12/07 "ICH" --- - In a cover piece for the New Statesman, John 
>Pilger evokes the memory of Germans 'looking from the side' at 
>Bergen-Belsen to describe the challenge facing us in the West as the 
>Bush/Blair 'long war' becomes 'perhaps the greatest crisis of modern 
>times'.
>
>The Israeli journalist Amira Hass describes the moment her mother, 
>Hannah, was marched from a cattle train to the Nazi concentration 
>camp at Bergen-Belsen. "They were sick and some were dying," she 
>says. "Then my mother saw these German women looking at the 
>prisoners, just looking. This image became very formative in my 
>upbringing, this despicable 'looking from the side'."
>
>It is time we in Britain and other Western countries stopped looking 
>from the side. We are being led towards perhaps the most serious 
>crisis in modern history as the Bush-Cheney-Blair "long war" edges 
>closer to Iran for no reason other than that nation's independence 
>from rapacious America. The safe delivery of the 15 British sailors 
>into the hands of Rupert Murdoch and his rivals (with tales of their 
>"ordeal" almost certainly authored by the Ministry of Defence - until 
>it got the wind up) is both a farce and a distraction. The Bush 
>administration, in secret connivance with Blair, has spent four years 
>preparing for "Operation Iranian Freedom". Forty-five cruise missiles 
>are primed to strike. According to Russia's leading strategic thinker 
>General Leonid Ivashov: "Nuclear facilities will be secondary 
>targets... at least 20 such facilities need to be destroyed. Combat 
>nuclear weapons may be used. This will result in the radioactive 
>contamination of all the Iranian territory, and beyond."
>
>And yet there is a surreal silence, save for the noise of "news" in 
>which our powerful broadcasters gesture cryptically at the obvious 
>but dare not make sense of it, lest the one-way moral screen erected 
>between us and the consequences of an imperial foreign policy 
>collapse and the truth be revealed. John Bolton, formerly Bush's man 
>at the United Nations, recently spelled out the truth: that the 
>Bush-Cheney-Blair plan for the Middle East is an agenda to maintain 
>division and instability. In other words, bloodshed and chaos equals 
>control. He was referring to Iraq, but he also meant Iran.
>
>One million Iraqis fill the streets of Najaf demanding that Bush and 
>Blair get out of their homeland - that is the real news: not our 
>nabbed sailor-spies, nor the political danse macabre of the 
>pretenders to Blair's Duce delusions. Whether it is treasurer Gordon 
>Brown, the paymaster of the Iraq bloodbath, or John Reid, who sent 
>British troops to pointless deaths in Afghanistan, or any of the 
>others who sat through cabinet meetings knowing that Blair and his 
>acolytes were lying through their teeth, only mutual distrust 
>separates them now. They knew about Blair's plotting with Bush. They 
>knew about the fake 45-minute "warning". They knew about the fitting 
>up of Iran as the next "enemy".
>
>Declared Brown to the Daily Mail: "The days of Britain having to 
>apologise for its colonial history are over. We should celebrate much 
>of our past rather than apologise for it." In Late Victorian 
>Holocausts, the historian Mike Davis documents that as many as 21 
>million Indians died unnecessarily in famines criminally imposed by 
>British colonial policies. Moreover, since the formal demise of that 
>glorious imperium, declassified files make it clear that British 
>governments have borne "significant responsibility" for the direct or 
>indirect deaths of between 8.6 million and 13.5 million people 
>throughout the world from military interventions and at the hands of 
>regimes strongly supported by Britain. The historian Mark Curtis 
>calls these victims "unpeople". Rejoice! said Margaret Thatcher. 
>Celebrate! says Brown. Spot the difference.
>
>Brown is no different from Hillary Clinton, John Edwards and the 
>other warmongering Democrats he admires and who support an unprovoked 
>attack on Iran and the subjugation
>of the Middle East to "our interests" - and Israel's, of course. 
>Nothing has changed since the US and Britain destroyed Iran's 
>democratic government in 1953 and inst

Re: [Biofuel] HL Mencken, July 1920-great reply

[Irwin Levinson]

Kieth you have a real sense of the outer moron facade and the inner 
macheavellian activity with supportive and similar associates.  The observed 
moron  is- as you describe him and offers the simplistic solutions waving the 
flag of danger.  I admire your sense of understanding.
Irv Levinson

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Sep 26, 2007 10:55 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] HL Mencken, July 1920
>
>Hiya Bob
>
>>" . . . all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most 
>>devious and mediocre - the man who can most easily (and) adeptly 
>>disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum. The 
>>presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is 
>>perfected, the office represents, more closely, the inner soul of 
>>the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious 
>>day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at 
>>last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
>
>Yes! And here we are. If only it were that unsinister! He left out 
>the accompanying corruption.
>
>It's surely true that anyone who'd willingly run for US president 
>should automatically be disqualified, or perhaps committed, but I 
>think Mencken's too cynical in attributing that to the inner soul of 
>the people. It's not the people that are the problem, they're the 
>victims. No matter how their outer "souls" may have been manipulated 
>and warped and corrupted, their inner soul is still okay, given half 
>a chance. But that's a lot more than can be said for their 
>institutions, in the US and everywhere else - a different matter, 
>institutions don't have souls at all, inner or outer.
>
>Anyway, isn't it a sort of dynamic of democracy (whatever that may 
>be) that you'll end up with a total moron at the top? The Lowest 
>Common Denominator rules? Or is that the Peter Principle? - in a 
>bureaucratic hierarchy everyone automatically achieves his own level 
>of incompetence, or something like that. Fortunately however, there's 
>more to life on Earth, and indeed to CAWKI, than bureaucratic 
>hierarchies, as well as so-called democracies. At least there is in 
>my neighbourhood, and I'm sure in yours.
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
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Re: [Biofuel] Holocaust not study lie

[Irwin Levinson]

 Kieth
There is an old British expression to the effect that "one should call 'tripe' 
when tripe is served."  Part of the email sent , is in fact tripe, i.e. 
incorrect.  The fact is that Holocaust studies was not removed from the UK 
curriculum.  It is a rumor, prompted by the decision of a teacher in a single 
UK school not to teach the subject as part of its curriculum.  (see the 
detailed explanation below)
 
May I suggest that those interested in checking this out further, go to 
www.boycottwatch.org/misc/UK-Holocaust.htm
An extract from what you'll see appears immediately below my signature.  
 
I have suggested in the past, and repeat it now, that one should check out the 
veracity of anything that they are asked to circulate to others.  
  
 
PS: GCSE refers to a pre-graduation examination that determines a student has 
satisfactorily completed high school.
irv

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Oct 3, 2007 9:43 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The unspoken Holocaust
>
>Hi Bob
>
>>Hi all,
>> Back again, asking more questions. Read only the last 
>>paragraph if the rest enrages you. Shouldn't I just shut up?
>
>:-) Only if you want to.
>
>Anyway, it's certainly been very widely ignored (like the gypsy death 
>toll) but it's not quite an unspoken Holocaust, or not anymore. The 
>subject recently got a major airing in the mainstream press, though 
>not in the US, as with so much else. See, eg.:
>
>http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17596.htm
>How three million Germans died after VE Day
>04/25/07 "The Telegraph"
>Nigel Jones reviews After the Reich: From the Liberation of Vienna to 
>the Berlin Airlift by Giles MacDonogh
>
>Here's the book (different subtitle in the US version):
>http://snipurl.com/1rqme
>Amazon.com: After the Reich: The Brutal History of The Allied 
>Occupation: Books: Giles MacDonogh
>
>The Telegraph piece is below.
>
>Thanks for posting Sunic's piece. "Why are the sufferings and 
>victimhood of some nations or ethnic groups ignored, while the 
>sufferings of other nations and groups receive fulsome and 
>sympathetic attention from the media and politicians?"
>
>Like I said, some genocides just aren't fashionable. That's an 
>extremely lousy answer, we badly need better answers than that, and 
>taboos and false sacred cows won't help us get them.
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>--
>
>How Three Million Germans Died after VE Day
>
>Nigel Jones reviews After the Reich: From the Liberation of Vienna to 
>the Berlin Airlift by Giles MacDonogh
>
>04/25/07 "The Telegraph" -- --- Giles MacDonogh is a bon viveur and a 
>historian of wine and gastronomy, but in this book, pursuing his 
>other consuming interest - German history - he serves a dish to turn 
>the strongest of stomachs. It makes particularly uncomfortable 
>reading for those who compare the disastrous occupation of Iraq 
>unfavourably to the post-war settlement of Germany and Austria.
>
>MacDonogh argues that the months that followed May 1945 brought no 
>peace to the shattered skeleton of Hitler's Reich, but suffering even 
>worse than the destruction wrought by the war. After the atrocities 
>that the Nazis had visited on Europe, some degree of justified 
>vengeance by their victims was inevitable, but the appalling 
>bestialities that MacDonogh documents so soberly went far beyond 
>that. The first 200 pages of his brave book are an almost unbearable 
>chronicle of human suffering.
>
>His best estimate is that some three million Germans died 
>unnecessarily after the official end of hostilities. A million 
>soldiers vanished before they could creep back to the holes that had 
>been their homes. The majority of them died in Soviet captivity (of 
>the 90,000 who surrendered at Stalingrad, only 5,000 eventually came 
>home) but, shamingly, many thousands perished as prisoners of the 
>Anglo-Americans. Herded into cages along the Rhine, with no shelter 
>and very little food, they dropped like flies. Others, more 
>fortunate, toiled as slave labour in a score of Allied countries, 
>often for years. Incredibly, some Germans were still being held in 
>Russia as late as 1979.
>
>The two million German civilians who died were largely the old, women 
>and children: victims of disease, cold, hunger, suicide - and mass 
>murder.
>
>Apart from the well-known repeated rape of virtually every girl and 
>woman unlucky enough to be in the Soviet occupation zones, perhaps 
>the most shocking outrage recorded by MacDonogh - for the first time 
>in English - is the slaughter of a quarter of a million Sudeten 
>Germans by their vengeful Czech compatriots. The survivors of this 
>ethnic cleansing, naked and shivering, were pitched across the 
>border, never to return to their homes. Similar scenes were seen 
>across Poland, Silesia and East Prussia as age-old German communities 
>were brutally expunged.
>
>Given that what amounted to a lesser Holocaust was unfold

Re: [Biofuel] Holocaust error

[Irwin Levinson]

My apologies.
There was a piece circulated to the jewish communities groups proclaiming the 
british had removed "The study of the Hoocaust" from the school corriculum and 
that action was hailed as a new or continued rise of antisemitism,  the author 
of the piece I sent you called it a lie and as explained was the result of one 
teacher that did the removal for his particular class study. 
 In the "biofuel..." at the same time, this debate on the holocaust whether 
Jewish, German, Russian, czech, Moslem etc also surfaced, led by those  who 
opposed resettling of the european jews in the middle east and tie the ills of 
that region to the jews and not to oil exploitation and the rise of 
nationalism.  I guess I confused the issues and responded to youse guys, and 
not to those that exploit information whenever antisemitism appears in order to 
cut the hatred and cool those people down.  
I'm sorry for the confusion, I caused.
Irv

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Oct 4, 2007 12:23 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Holocaust not study lie
>
>Hello Irv
>
>I'm afraid I don't know what you're referring to. I didn't say 
>Holocaust studies were removed from the UK curriculum, nor any 
>curriculum, in this or the previous thread on this subject, I don't 
>know anything about the UK curriculum. The Telegraph review of 
>MacDonogh's book that I posted doesn't refer to it either. Sunic's 
>piece that Bob posted also doesn't refer to it, or not that I saw. 
>And there isn't anything immediately below your signature, as 
>promised. So I'm baffled. Please provide a full reference and quote 
>the text you're referring to.
>
>Best
>
>Keith
>
>
>
>> Kieth
>>There is an old British expression to the effect that "one should 
>>call 'tripe' when tripe is served."  Part of the email sent , is in 
>>fact tripe, i.e. incorrect.  The fact is that Holocaust studies was 
>>not removed from the UK curriculum.  It is a rumor, prompted by the 
>>decision of a teacher in a single UK school not to teach the subject 
>>as part of its curriculum.  (see the detailed explanation below)
>>
>>May I suggest that those interested in checking this out further, go 
>>to www.boycottwatch.org/misc/UK-Holocaust.htm
>>An extract from what you'll see appears immediately below my signature.
>>
>>I have suggested in the past, and repeat it now, that one should 
>>check out the veracity of anything that they are asked to circulate 
>>to others.
>>
>>
>>PS: GCSE refers to a pre-graduation examination that determines a 
>>student has satisfactorily completed high school.
>>irv
>>
>>-Original Message-
>> >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Sent: Oct 3, 2007 9:43 PM
>> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The unspoken Holocaust
>> >
>> >Hi Bob
>> >
>> >>Hi all,
>> >> Back again, asking more questions. Read only the last
>> >>paragraph if the rest enrages you. Shouldn't I just shut up?
>> >
>> >:-) Only if you want to.
>> >
>> >Anyway, it's certainly been very widely ignored (like the gypsy death
>> >toll) but it's not quite an unspoken Holocaust, or not anymore. The
>> >subject recently got a major airing in the mainstream press, though
>> >not in the US, as with so much else. See, eg.:
>> >
>> >http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17596.htm
>> >How three million Germans died after VE Day
>> >04/25/07 "The Telegraph"
>> >Nigel Jones reviews After the Reich: From the Liberation of Vienna to
>> >the Berlin Airlift by Giles MacDonogh
>> >
>> >Here's the book (different subtitle in the US version):
>> >http://snipurl.com/1rqme
>> >Amazon.com: After the Reich: The Brutal History of The Allied
>> >Occupation: Books: Giles MacDonogh
>> >
>> >The Telegraph piece is below.
>> >
>> >Thanks for posting Sunic's piece. "Why are the sufferings and
>> >victimhood of some nations or ethnic groups ignored, while the
>> >sufferings of other nations and groups receive fulsome and
>> >sympathetic attention from the media and politicians?"
>> >
>> >Like I said, some genocides just aren't fashionable. That's an
>> >extremely lousy answer, we badly need better answers than that, and
>> >taboos and false sacred cows won't help us get them.
>> >
>> >Best
>> >
>> >Keith
>> >
>> >--
>> >
>> >How Three Million Germans Died after VE Day
>> >
>> >Nigel Jones reviews After the Reich: From the Liberation of Vienna to
>> >the Berlin Airlift by Giles MacDonogh
>> >
>> >04/25/07 "The Telegraph" -- --- Giles MacDonogh is a bon viveur and a
>> >historian of wine and gastronomy, but in this book, pursuing his
>> >other consuming interest - German history - he serves a dish to turn
>> >the strongest of stomachs. It makes particularly uncomfortable
>> >reading for those who compare the disastrous occupation of Iraq
>> >unfavourably to the post-war settlement of Germany and Austria.
>> >
>> >MacDonogh argues that the months that followed May 1945 brought no
>> 

Re: [Biofuel] Holocausts "forever"

[Irwin Levinson]

Kieth
  I find your grasp of world affairs very close to mine but perhaps of wider 
breath.
  The planet has always been exploited by the most avarice of every tribal, 
national and international or global groups.  Both their nearest and distant 
neighbors are sources of "to be procured wealth".  
There is never a question of justice, happiness or good future from these avar- 
folks and they who want the most, will and have used, the most destructive 
anger and weaponry of fear and exploitation.  Men women and children are both 
the fodder and receipients of this degredation, Not surprising, the doers lie 
and justify in the name of those they misuse.
  Whether these destructive forces choose patrotism to supress critism, or fear 
to dominate objection or killing to supress rejection, People will die. Tribes 
will die. Nations will die. 
 As big as those crimes against humanity are, Someone will justify the killing, 
murdering and wiping out of the men, women and children. 
This last century, Land, Oil and Uranium was the center of power: before that, 
Land, transportation, and material (fur, wood, coal, fish, gold, copper); 
Before that, Land and dominance of the land.
All overshot with colonialism and the rise and rebellion against it. Marx used 
the word "exploitation"
I guess that's too simplistic a view of history.  But as we become aware of the 
expansion of the universe, so must we become aware of the diverse struggles of
people to be free from the oppresion of the powerful.

Irv
-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Oct 4, 2007 11:18 PM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Holocaust error
>
>Hi Irv
>
>Thanks for the explanation, no problem, it just had me puzzled. It's 
>a bit tickling though that you said it was me who should check his 
>facts! Never mind, all is forgiven.
>
>>My apologies.
>>There was a piece circulated to the jewish communities groups 
>>proclaiming the british had removed "The study of the Hoocaust" from 
>>the school corriculum and that action was hailed as a new or 
>>continued rise of antisemitism,  the author of the piece I sent you 
>>called it a lie and as explained was the result of one teacher that 
>>did the removal for his particular class study.
>> In the "biofuel..." at the same time, this debate on the holocaust 
>>whether Jewish, German, Russian, czech, Moslem etc also surfaced, 
>>led by those  who opposed resettling of the european jews in the 
>>middle east
>
>I don't think they did that exactly.
>
>>and tie the ills of that region to the jews and not to oil 
>>exploitation and the rise of nationalism.
>
>Make it "as well as" rather than "not to". See eg.:
>http://www.tompaine.com/articles/oil_and_israel.php
>Oil and Israel
>Bob Dreyfuss , The Dreyfuss Report
>May 25, 2004
>
>Also I don't think anyone has taken issue with the Jews, or at least 
>I hope not. With colonial Zionism yes, and with the "Israel lobby" 
>indeed, but growing numbers of Jews worldwide also take issue with 
>that, including rabbis and many Israelis.
>
>You might read this previous post from a while back, in response to a 
>list member who started calling people Nazis:
>http://snipurl.com/pg9x
>Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel
>
>I think what's been going on here this time round is rejection, or at 
>least questioning, of the idea that Israel can do no wrong because of 
>the Holocaust. Question Israel and you'll be smeared and labelled an 
>anti-Semite, what nonsense. Very dangerous nonsense! Which Holocaust 
>is that, the Palestinian Holocaust?
>
>Bob Dreyfuss says: "The two unmentionables about Iraq are suddenly 
>getting mentioned. The real reasons for the attack on Iraq had 
>nothing to do with WMDs, that ultimate red herring. The real reasons: 
>oil and Israel."
>
>If Israel is unmentionable it's not possible to make much sense of 
>what's going on in the Middle East, especially now, nor of energy 
>politics in general. Hence this ongoing discussion here, and why as 
>list owner I certainly won't put a stop to it, as some have demanded. 
>After all it's me who started it, two years ago.
>
>The anti-Semite smear is often such a knee-jerk reaction anyway, 
>without any thought to it. Since Bob posted Michael Santomauro's 29 
>questions about the Holocaust (which did not deny that it happened) 
>several list members have unsubscribed, sending me furious emails 
>saying things like "I am not interested in having Holocaust deniers 
>emails showing up in my inbox" and so on - they didn't even read it, 
>there hasn't been any Holocaust denial. We're well rid of them, IMHO, 
>this is not the place for knee-jerk reactions.
>
>How about this one? "I don't think any of the holocaust survivors and 
>their families would appreciate the fact that their suffering is 
>being discussed on a forum that is dedicated to biofuel...or any 
>other forum that involves the words gas, organic and/or alternative 
>fuel, fertilizer, etc."
>
>Huh? That has

Re: [Biofuel] Open letter from Islam to Christianity

[Irwin Levinson]

congrats to you Kieth
always on the ball
Irv

-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Oct 21, 2007 6:58 AM
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Open letter from Islam to Christianity
>
>Stephen R Walmsley wrote:
>
>>Perhaps they should state they deplore the attacks of 911. or do they?
>
>You read it then, did you? I'll bet you didn't.
>
>So you expect them to apologise for 9/11? Do you feel that Islam is 
>to blame for it?
>
>And you think that's what this is all about?
>
>Might it not perhaps have a little to do with all the toxic 
>"Islamo-fascist" -cum-"War of Civilisations" etc etc etc crusader BS 
>that gets flung about by US nutcases these days?
>
>Would you have preferred it if they'd waited for the US to apologise 
>for that first? Or maybe for what your war criminals have been doing 
>in Iraq and Afghanistan and have got the hots for doing in Iran too? 
>But the Muslims are the guilty ones, eh?
>
>The full letter's here, why don't you give it a read?
>
>http://www.divinity.cam.ac.uk/cip/documents/COMMONWORDFINAL091007.pdf
>
>Keith
>
>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>>Bob Molloy
>>Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:26 PM
>>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Open letter from Islam to Christianity
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>138 Muslim Scholars Issue Open Letter to Christian Religious Leaders
>>| IslamToday / Agencies|
>>
>>11 October 2007
>>
>>138 of the world's leading Muslim scholars and intellectuals from all
>>branches of Islam (Sunni and Shia, Salafi and Sufi, liberal and
>>conservative) had come together to write a letter entitled "A Common Word
>>Between Us and You," to the world's Christian leaders.
>>
>>The drafting of the letter was organized by the Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute
>>for Islamic Thought in Amman, Jordan. Though its message has been said by
>>Muslim scholars many times before, it is the first time so many high-profile
>>Muslims have come together in public to make such a unified call for peace.
>>
>>The letter was launched first in Jordan this morning, and then in other
>>countries over the course of the day, the letter gets its final unveiling at
>>a joint press conference in Washington D.C. this afternoon by Mustafa Ceric,
>>Grand Mufti of Bosnia, and John Esposito, Director of the Prince Alwaleed
>>Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown
>>University.
>>
>>In a display of unprecedented unity, the letter - which calls for peace
>>between the world's Christians and Muslims - is signed by no fewer than 19
>>current and former grand ayatollahs and grand muftis from countries as
>>diverse as Egypt, Turkey, Russia, Syria, Jordan, and Palestine. War-torn
>>Iraq was represented by both Shi'ites and Sunnis.
>>
>>It is addressed to Christianity's most powerful leaders, including the pope,
>>the archbishop of Canterbury and the heads of the Lutheran, Methodist and
>>Baptist churches, and, in 15 pages laced with Qur'anic and Biblical
>>scriptures, argues that the most fundamental tenets of Islam and
>>Christianity are identical: love of one (and the same) God, and love of
>>one's neighbor.
>>
>>On this basis the letter reasons that harmony between the two religions is
>>not only necessary for world peace, it is natural.
>>
>>"As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that
>>Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims
>>on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes
>>. Our very eternal souls are all at stake if we fail to sincerely make every
>>effort to make peace," the letter reads.
>>
>>"If Muslims and Christians are not at peace, the world cannot be at peace.
>>With the terrible weaponry of the modern world; with Muslims and Christians
>>intertwined everywhere as never before, no side can unilaterally win a
>>conflict between more than half of the world's inhabitants," the scholars
>>wrote.
>>
>>"Our common future is at stake. The very survival of the world itself is
>>perhaps at stake,"
>>
>>"It's an astonishing achievement of solidarity," says David Ford, director
>>of the Cambridge University's Interfaith Program. "I hope it will be able to
>>set the right key note for relations between Muslims and Christians in the
>>21st century, which have been lacking since September 11."
>>
>>One profound obstacle to establishing positive relations among mainstream
>>Muslim and Christian groups, argues Ford, has been the lack of a single,
>>authoritative Muslim voice to participate in such a dialogue. This letter
>>changes that. "It proves that Islam can have an unambiguous, unified voice,"
>>says Aref Ali Nayed, a leading Islamic scholar and one of the letter's
>>authors.
>>
>>Sources:
>>
>>Emily Flynn Vencat, "Giving Peace a Chance" Newsweek October 11, 2007
>>
>>Peter Graff, "Unpreced

Re: [biofuel] Bechtel: Profiting from Destruction, and how.

[Irwin Levinson]

Right on Target; Bechtel and Haliburton are some of the vultures that feed on 
the Iraqi and Afgani bodies in the name of the Bush administration that created 
these bodies;  Big Oil is the very fuel that has lit the fires (started by 
Rockefeller Sr and continues to this day) that help the hegimonial powers suck 
the life blood from still colonial peoples. The fluid structure of western and 
now eastern society, building through the 20th and now into the twentyfirst 
century, is composed of oil and it's child, "power" 
The brief flury into atomic power, slowed/stopped because it is  still too 
dangerous.  Coal drifts into the background, but remains vigilant.  Bechtel, 
Haliburton are making sure, that what ever oil there is, is The USA's.
Happy biodiesal
Irv
---Original Message---
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 06/09/03 06:54 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Bechtel: Profiting from Destruction

> 
> 16,000-word report from CorpWatch:

"Bechtel Group Inc., one of the lead contractors in the 
reconstruction of Iraq, has a 100-year history of capitalizing on 
environmentally unsustainable technologies and reaping immense 
profits at the expense of societies and the environment. In this 
collaborative report with Global Exchange and Public Citizen we look 
at case studies from Bechtel's history of operations in the water, 
nuclear, energy and public works sectors. This report is released 
today [June 5] to coincide with a day of direct actions around the 
country to protest Bechtel's presence in Iraq. The report concludes 
that the Bush administration must be stopped from doling out 
contracts to undeserving firms with which it has close ties, 
including Bechtel and Halliburton."
 
Bechtel: Profiting from Destruction
Why the Corporate Invasion of Iraq Must be Stopped

By CorpWatch, Global Exchange, Public Citizen
Collaborative Report
June 5, 2003
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6975


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Re: [biofuel] This is so pathetic, then read this

[Irwin Levinson]

Mr. M.
Are you so niave?  that the phrase We(The USA) will use the worlds energy 
producing materials anywhere (place) they are, until they are all gone and THEN 
we will start to use The USA's fuel next.
If you are not niave, then you know USCorps and Monops will "control" all 
sources of energy, even not on USA soil and sell it to ourselves and others at 
top price.
Irv Levinson
***
---Original Message---
From: murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 06/11/03 09:10 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] This is so pathetic

> 
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030610/ap_on_go_co/natural_gas_crunch_13
> 
> The U.S.'s only response to this looming crunch on natural gas is to fall into
> the same trap we have done with Oil?  Where does it end?  Why does such a 
> great
> country have to just demand such massive energy imports when it could
> manufacture or harvest more of its own energy?
> 
> We could easily set up to harvest wind, solar biomass and other energy,
> manufacture electricity or natural gas or whatever from these sources, and
> satsify at least some of this rising demand.  I do not suggest these as 
> cure-all
> solutions. I suggest only that it's pathetic that the U.S. has only the answer
> to fall into this giant new dependency, when we have so much technological
> expertise.  
> 
> I wonder if we will prop up (or create) semi-totaltarian regimes in countries
> which send us LNG, in the same sense that we have propped up such regimes in
> some of the countries which send us Oil, feigning concern for upright 
> political
> philosophy while practicing policies of diplomatic expediency.
> 
> The advocates of these LNG-Importation-will-solve-everything policies 
> apparently
> have little more concern for our Trade Deficit than for our Budget Deficit.
> There is a lot of Energy that we could harvest and convert right here at home,
> if only we will bother.
> 
> MM
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 


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Re: Re: [biofuel] Natural gas - was Re: This is so pathetic: AGAIN

[Irwin Levinson]

Mr M
Read my previous response to your message
think like strategist; How do you make the most money, and keep your public 
with their tongues hanging out and assure their good will, why call 
CRISIS Right Mr. Bush?
Irv Levinson
---Original Message---
From: murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 06/12/03 03:00 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Natural gas - was Re: This is so pathetic

> 
> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 02:07:29 +0900, you wrote:

>http://www.motherjones.com/news/dbriefing/index.html#four
>
>Hot Air on Natural Gas
>
>The nation's dwindling supply of natural gas has politicians, 
>conservationists, big business, and alternative energy groups 
>brainstorming tactics to avert a consumer crisis.
>http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0611/p03s02-uspo.html
>Natural-gas spike hits US consumers | csmonitor.com
>Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan voiced his concern Tuesday on 
>Capitol Hill, warning of a natural gas shortage that he and other 
>Republicans claim pose an imminent threat to the nation's economic 
>recovery. But, as Gail Russell Chaddock of the Christian Science 
>Monitor reports, the Republican push to expand the country's natural 
>gas supply has its drawbacks, and Democrats and sustainable energy 
>advocates aren't willing to be fooled by a can of worms disguised as 
>a national crisis.
>
>Republicans' response to avoiding high natural gas prices read 
>similarly to the country's current approach to oil:
>http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030610-065156-8494r
>United Press International: Natural gas economics turn international
>import it as cheaply as possible and draw it up from anywhere we can 
>find it within our borders. 

Aside from growing biomass through some sort of agriculture, and burning
or
otherwise using it for energy, what other ways are there to manufacture
methane
from air, water, etc., using such energy inputs as electricity or heat
from
solar?  Isn't there a way or two?  If it is *presently* less expensive to
import
geologically-made methane, does that mean we should just throw our hands
in the
air and give up and not try to manufacture some?  It sounds like there are
geopolitical "costs" for everyone on Earth when we put so much pressure on 
other
nations to send us their goods, and that these costs can be broken down
somewhat
into dollar terms.

In any event, I think we could do more to make energy here at home, and
that has
not been said at all by our President.  I think part of the problem is
that he
is genuinely feeble-minded on these topics and perhaps not even aware that 
one
can manufacture an energy-carrying chemical rather than drilling for it. 
If he
is unaware of such a thing, then there can be no excuse for this in a
President
entrusted to help lead us to a variety of solutions on these matters.  If
he
claims to have some energy expertise as part of his background, that
particularly qualifies him, supposedly, to be able in these areas, then
let him
show evidence of that expertise by ceasing his assault on our future by
attempting to implement stubborn one-sided wrong-minded solutions

MM



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[biofuel] Re: biofuels:Awakening

[Irwin Levinson]

CONTROL
To those who wonder where all the weapons went,  to those who wonder why 
alternative fuels are are disputed, to those who hope for cutting back on 
current use of fuels, to those who suffer from sleepness nights on why their 
attemps to bring a sort of peace to the world dosen't work...The answer is not 
blowing in the wind.  It is plainly before you.   In the various types, kinds 
of political entities we live in, the economic leaders of any particular group 
like to Control. 
If one canot be controled, then one must be disarmed, rendered harmless, ones 
life made difficult, and separated from ones neighbors and disabled. 
Is it evil to salt the path to the future with misinformation, lies and 200 
million dolars to tell us bologna stories? Well ask Mr. Bush, Cheney and 
Rumsfeld.
I salute the readers of this chain of comments on biofuels for they are 
awakening to more of the truth and are searching for answers.  Hopefully GW 
Bush, like his father and the gang that surrounded him...one term will be all 
he'll get.
Irv Levinson


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Re: [biofuel] Control,a better understanding

[Irwin Levinson]

When the current and previous Bush and Reagan administrations ruled in the US 
or were the government, they brought a new desire by old forces to establish 
the US as the most powerful arbitrator in the world. 
THAT no deal anywhere regarding exportible sources of energy whether nuclear, 
gas, oil, biofuels, even coal and to some degree hydrodynamic would be 
conducted with out their,
Washington and US energy industries, say so. 
Deals were made with raw material exporters and with every major investment 
house and many counties willing to business with US agents were enlisted into 
this cause; suffice it to say, Not every country agreed but the power of the US 
was virtually unchallenged except for the Soviets and they were almost out of 
the superpower picture. 
To control, you don't have to own any thing, you just have to have your hand on 
the spigot.  If someone,any one, disaggrees with you  or thinks about 
disagreeing with you, well you just close the spigot. Suddam , nasty guy the US 
said he was, didnot aggree withe US policyBam no Saddam.  
Pahkastan and India? Atomic Powers?  Ours. 
North Korea...no nukes for oil said Clinton; OK said The NK.   NO said 
Bush...none of my oil, well we will see?
Venezuala, the Rockefellers play ground, Who went on strike? the workers?  No 
the Managers!, the MANAGERS said,"oil gave the worker government there too much 
power" AND THE US DIDN'T LIKE THAT.
I can go on but what is the point.  The point is that the current Bush 
administration not only lied and cheated, but will continue to lie, and play as 
hard ball as they can, subverting any and all US agencys (CIA, FBI, DIA etc) 
and world commisions, the UN  et al, to continue the US domination management 
of world fuel, power and CONTROL.
Put that in your diesel engine.
Irv Levinson 


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Re: [biofuel] Help with some simple numbers?CATCH 22

[Irwin Levinson]

CATCH 22
only 1/3 of the petroleum drawn is used as fuel; 5/12th is used as fertilizer, 
other fractions as lubicants, chemicals,dyes, explosives, plastics, etc bio 
diesel can solve some of the transport probs but we need the fertilizer to grow 
BIODIESEL. 
---Original Message---
From: Tim Castleman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 06/30/03 01:17 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Help with some simple numbers?

> 
> Can I get some help with these simple calculations?

US petroleum consumption is 19.65 Million Barrels per day, or about 7
Billion barrels per
year.
(http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2002/htm
l/table_04_01.html)

If we could get 2 barrels (88 gallons) of biofuel from each acre of
farmland, we would need 3.5 Billion acres to meet our demand.

We only have 335 Million acres of Farmland in the US.
(http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/land/meta/m5970.html)

That means that even if we stopped growing food entirely, we would still
come up over 3 BILLION acres short.

If we find a way to get 10 barrels from each acre (440 gallons), we could
nearly cover our consumption, but would have no place to grow any food.

If we find a way to get 20 barrels per acre (880 gallons), we could do it
with about half of the farmland available.

Do these simple numbers look right?



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Re: [biofuel] Was the blackout caused by NG crises and greed?

[Irwin Levinson]

HAKAN
for a pentrating reply, please check out
www.markfiore.com/animation/looting.swf
IRV
---Original Message---
From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 08/17/03 04:46 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Was the blackout caused by NG crises and greed?

> 
> 
I do not really care about the latest US blackouts, this because it is a 
homemade problem and does not effect the rest of the world. Maybe the
taste 
for some basic energy conservation will grow out of it and in this case
the 
consequences might have a global positive result. It is however a 
technically interesting event and as such, I cannot resist to speculate 
about the cause.

The reason for this is that the politicians and energy companies now are 
scrambling for an excuse that they can sell to the public. The reality is 
that the government, congress, regulators and energy companies, all have 
failed to meet their responsibility to the public interest. The
politicians 
have failed to set the rules for a working environment, the government 
neglected the problems and the corporations took risks in trying to 
maximize profits. The result is enormous cost for the tax payers and
adding 
billions to the already most expensive administration in US history.

It is more than 40 years ago I studied electric power generation & 
distribution in school, but the basic principles are still valid. To 
understand the basics of grid network design and traffic distribution, was 

however very useful in my many years involvement with computer network 
techniques. To understand the grid, I will try to give a very simplified 
description of how it works.

Each components, from the transformer stations to the power plants, have 
minimum and maximum loads and automatic shut down in the case of overload. 

This is absolutely necessary equipment protection. In the case of 
transformer stations, it will be a local blackout and repair personnel
will 
be sent out to deal with it. The modernization of the distribution system 
is mostly an upgrade to remote control of disconnection and connection of 
grid distribution points. To some extent it can be capacity upgrades and 
changes in architecture.

The faulty common principles for operation policies of user equipment and 
the extensive energy waste in US, leads to unnecessary high and very 
predictable peak demands. The blackout came at a time of day, were peak 
demand could be predicted. We have seen this in California and many of us 
predicted that New York would be the next area that would suffer. I belive 

that the use of natural gas for electricity generation (prohibited by
Nixon 
administration) and the current supply crises, it one of the major reasons 

for the massive blackout.

Because of the current high prices for operation of natural gas
electricity 
plants, the electricity suppliers want to operate them at a very high 
utilization and will not start up reserve capacity until the last moment. 
It is probably also a "play chicken" situation among the suppliers, to see 

which ones who get nervous and start up reserve generation. This leave 
everybody in a rush situation, when the peak demands come and with close
to 
90% utilization, it is urgent.

Every time that a generation resource id added to the grid, it has to be 
started up and then "phased in", before its actual connection. "Phased in" 

is an adjustment of the generators AC (alternate current) to the AC of the 

grid. If it is not properly "phased in" at the connection, a power surge 
will occur. Once "phased in", the grid will keep the generators in phase. 
40 years ago the generators was "phased in" manually and you could often 
see the flickers of the lights, when somebody did not do a perfect "phase 
in". Today it is unusual and most plants have automatic phase adjustments, 

it is however still possible to do premature connections to the grid. If
it 
is in a hurry to get the generator on line, it can be connected with a
less 
than perfect "phase in" to the AC of the grid and with a electricity surge 

as result.

My bet is that since the grid generators at the occasion was running more 
than 90% utilization and the providers was scrambling to get more
resources 
on line. In this situation, badly "phased in" resources were connected, 
with a power surge as result. This power surge released the automatic over 

load protection for an other power plant and they did emergency shut down. 

Once one station shut down, the utilization reaches a level that causes 
other stations to do emergency shut down, in three minutes 21 stations did 

automatic emergency shut down of grid connection and the "blackout" was a 
fact.

Once the grid is down, it is a very time consuming exercise to start up. 
This because the loads have to be manually disconnected before the start 
can begin. Once when the loads are down to the capacity of one power
plant, 
the grid can start and then adding of more plants and distribution points.

Hakan





**

Re: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Fw: Al Gore's MoveOn Speech and Other Great News

[Irwin Levinson]

KEITH
ADD THIS TO YOUR LIST OF RECOMMENDATIONS
http//www.markfiore.com/animation/looting.swf
It will show how we are teaching democracy to the IRAQIS, AFGANS AND ANY OTHER 
democracy poor nations.
irv
---Original Message---
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 08/11/03 01:37 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Fw: Al Gore's MoveOn Speech and Other Great  News

> 
> http://www.tompaine.com/blog.cfm?startRow=1#blog8555

Goring Gore link

What's this editorial from The Washington Post that slams Al Gore all 
about? It's more than just a critique of the speech Gore delivered 
last week in New York for Moveon.org activists.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39381-2003Aug9.html
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16567

Citing a 1998 statement from the then-VP calling Saddam Hussein an 
evil despot, the writers criticize Gore because he challenges the 
lies Bush & Co. offered as rationale for going to war. It's off the 
wall. Alternatve ways to contain Saddam existed, and at least one of 
them -- the inspections -- apparently worked. The Post goes on to 
attack Gore's assertion that the Patriot Act is an invasion of our 
privacy, by pointing out that 98 senators voted for it. Then they 
slam his statement that the Administration's agenda serves only 
"powerful and wealthy groups." If Gore's views on these issues cannot 
yet be called conventional wisdom, they are held by a great many 
intelligent people.

We're not Al Gore fans, but as Eric Alterman likes to opine, What 
Liberal Media?
http://www.whatliberalmedia.com

August 11, 2003


See also:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15187
What Liberal Media?
By Eric Alterman, The Nation
February 14, 2003

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7355
Which Side Of The Media Is Inclusive?
Conservative Media Don't Want To Hear From The 'Other Guy'
(Excerpt from "What Liberal Media?" by Eric Alterman (Basic Books, 2003))

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15217
Media Mythbusters
By Bill Berkowitz, WorkingForChange.com
February 20, 2003


>Gore's full speech
>
>http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16567
>
>Setting It Right
>
>By Al Gore, MoveOn.org
>August 7, 2003





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Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

[Irwin Levinson]

Mr. Sanborn, I think you are quite right to defend your point of view, I for 
one believe in free speech, and call for  proof. losing jobs is never any one's 
fault, no matter why! AND IF WE HAVE TO,  attacking nations, or killing 
soldiers, we should do it -if they didn't expect to die why did they put on a 
uniform .  If Sadamm had been a benevolent  despot and made his deals with the 
US he'd still be here; Its our right to call the shots and decide who lives and 
who dies, me , bechtel and bin Laden, a father of 56.  There is always one 
rotten one in the barrel. They started it.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Jun 28, 2004 1:59 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I'm curious as to what FoxNews has to do wtih anything. It seems to me that 
your implying that I am dangerously republican, unfortunately, you couldn't be 
more wrong. I don't emphatecally support Bush, and I don't punch the republican 
hole on the ballot without knowing who I'm voting for. I am actually an 
independent and I tend to vote for people who are quite moderate. I think Bush 
did make a number of mistakes and I would like nothing more than to see Edwards 
become President. So I have no neo-conservative bias. My problem is that Moore 
doesn't make good arguements.

Moore shows pictures and tells stories but concludes very little. He implies 
many things and leaves it to the audience to decide. He doesn't leave many 
options to pick from, but at least they buy into his theories without him 
blatantly spitting out falsities. In his documentary about how bad GM is for 
closing the Flint plant, he shows evictions and people getting kicked out onto 
the street. It's no result of the GM closing, the person didn't work for GM but 
it made a good picture for his point. In Bowling for Columbine he references a 
little 6 year old who got hold of a gun and killed someone or maybe even 
himself. It was evidence though of how guns should be out of every home. 
Irregardless of the fact that the gun probably would have been illegally in the 
crack house where the kid lived and was abused. Its good upstanding households 
like that that are good and accurate reference material. His references to the 
Bush families connections to Osama are out of place a well. The connections to 
the Bin Laden family are quite public. The Bin Ladens have tons of connections 
in America, they're rich, so are the Bush's, guess what, the rich get rich and 
stay rich by making connections with other people that are rich. I don't think 
the Bush family planned terrorist attacks to use as reasons for war and then 
exploit them for money. I think there is something curious about the war in 
Iraq, but I also think Saddam should have been taken out in the Gulf War. Of 
course there is the best part with the mother weeping for her son. Thats 
footage that needs to be shown. Of course it should always be followed by a 
bunch of American's killing all those civillians. This is of course 
irregardless of the fact that almost 70% of Iraqi's are happy that Saddam is 
now out of power and that the casualty rate for US troops is really quite low 
for such a large scale head on assault. The Coalition has lost about 1000 
troops in Iraq, as opposed to the 58,000 who died in Vietnam. I'd say there is 
a significant improvement. But, we couldn't mention that there. We also 
strategically ignore the precision capabilities of the weapons used as well. A 
large number of civilians died in Iraq during the war and occupation. I'm 
wiling to bet that a very large portion of those deaths were not inflicted by 
Americans though. The car bombs, etc tend to take more Iraqis than Americans. 
So all in all Moore does a real fine job of showing a twisted side of reality. 
The movie was a twist of truth, and I don't think he even tries to show his 
point. Rather he shows what he thinks will sway people against Bush. Whether 
you like Bush or not, this is not an accurate portrayal of anything other than 
Michael Moore's hatred for George W. Bush.

Randall Sanborn






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Re: [biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE; human fuel

[Irwin Levinson]

Halliluya
The rage of those who hated and those who are outraged, about Fahrenheit 9/11 
must awaken the the rage of those who called the Vietnam and Korean wars as 
projects of those administrations that fought and led them.  Can it be that the 
US wars of the 20th Century were constructs of anti-Soviet  feelings of the 
RIGHT political forces in the world, aided and abetted by the weapon builders 
and World Marketeers.  Can it be the American people were hoodwinked by 
Truman-Eisenhower, and then Kenedy-Nixon-Johnson and finally Bamboozled by the 
great Reagan himself with  G H.Bush calling the shots?.  Is it possible that 
same forces, much more naked in the GW Bush Presidency, are still doing the 
same old Razzle Dazzle, kissing off more american youth, and middle eastern, 
Vietnamese, Chinese and Afganian even african:  Is it more fun to shoot the 
messenger, or cheer the movie than to think seriously about those smiling 
chaining forces that lead us to the brink of despair.
Mr. M.More may have opend a pandoras box.
I cry for those who have died
I cry for those that will die
I cry for those who have been blinded and can now see but donot know what they 
see.





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Re: Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country

[Irwin Levinson]

jesus didnot exist at all period; look what happened anyway

-Original Message-
From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Aug 2, 2005 12:45 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: Jesus was a liberal...,  and look what it got him... was Re:   
[Biofuel]The New Blue States/Country


>
>>   God has a good solution for sex, it's called abstinence and marriage. 
>
>

OMG that's what happened to my life!  God did it.
Why is GOD such a devil??

lol


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