Re: [Biofuel] KOH useage
Keith, Charles: Doesn't it also make sense not to adjust for purity in making the lye solution? I use a .1% solution, no matter what the catalyst. I adjust the starting number for purity (in this case yielding 5.775), but then allow the titration to help me avoid math mistakes. In this case, using a .1% (85% KOH) lye solution--I'm estimating here, based on all the other information--would have required 4.95 mL to get the solution to WVO solution to 8.5. Therefore: 4.95+5.775= 10.725. Even if you wind up using a number of 5 for the titration (most of us do not have equipment sophisticated enough to measure in the hundredths of mL for titrations!), your total number is 10.775. For a 100L batch, the difference of 5 grams is negilgible. Or am I missing something? I try to use the old carpentry guideline when I'm titrating/brewing: measure twice, cut once. The more math involved in my measurements, the more likely I am to screw up somewhere. I just tried loading the updated KOH info on jtf & the page isn't loading. Maybe you're still a-working on it? Best, SeanOn 5/10/06, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi CharlesYes, it makes the head hurt.First, see:http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#koh>Hi all> >I am about to start using KOH as a catalyst for my single-stage base>catalysed reaction, so, like a dutiful good boy, I read the>instruction at JtF to find out what to do. My KOH is 85% pure so my>basic amount is 5.8g.5.775>I also dissolved 1.65g of KOH in a litre of water to make my 1%>solution for titrations0.1%, but not in this case, it's 0.165%.>(by my calculations 1gm NaOH in 1l water is a 0.025M solution, so I>would use 1.4g 100% KOH to get the same concentration, so 1.65g 85%>KOH).It's 1.4025, but let's stay with 1.4g.1.65g 85% KOH is correct.People go wrong here. It seems natural when you're trying to convert from 100% KOH to 85% KOH to increase the 1.4g (or whatever quantity)by 15%. That's (100-85=15+100=115)/100. That would have given you1.61g, not 1.65g. Instead of 115/100 it should be 100/85, which is17.65% . That's 1.65g, the correct amount.If you've previously been using NaOH, another way of doing this is togo on using the NaOH 0.1% solution for titration and increase thefinal total by 1.65 for the 85% KOH quantity. >Having done my titration and say got 3ml JtF says I should use 5.8+>3 = 8.8g of KOH per litre oil.8.775>But, since KOH needs 1.4 times the amount of NaOH, surely my>calculation should be (ml x 1.4) + 5.8g? Which would give me 10g KOH>per litre oil???That's right, you have to convert everything. Except the number of millilitres.Let's do it backwards.The titration uses 1 ml of WVO and 0.1% lye solution to see how muchlye you need to bring the WVO to pH8.5.In essence, titration reflects a one-litre reaction reduced by onethousand times. So let's scale it up again to one litre.At titration level, if you need to add just 1 ml of 0.1% lyesolution, that means that at the one-litre level you'd have added awhole litre of the solution, containing 1 g of lye.With lye solution prepared with 85% pure KOH, that is with 1.65 g of85% KOH in 1 litre of water, adding 1 ml of lye solution at titration level means that at the one-litre level you've added 1.65 g of 85%KOH, the equivalent of 1g of pure NaOH.So for each 1 ml of KOH solution used in the titration you should add1.65 g of 85% KOH to the basic amount (also converted for 85% KOH). In your example with a titration result of 3 ml, that would be thebasic amount of 5.775 g + the titration result (3 x 1.65 = 4.95 g) =10.725 g 85% KOH per litre WVO.If you'd used 0.1% NaOH solution for titration instead, with the same WVO, the titration would have still have needed 3 ml of solution tobring the WVO to pH8.5.Add the basic 3.5 g = 6.5 g NaOH per litre of WVO.Convert for 85% KOH: 6.5 x 1.65 = 10.725 g 85% KOH per litre WVO. The same result.I see that should be clearer at the website. I just fixed it, andraised the KOH section one headline level so it's easier to find now(it's still in the same place though).Thankyou! :-) Ah, the joys of peer review!But it made my head hurt anyway.I put in the three-decimal values because it helps when you're makingbigger batches, you can be more accurate.HTH.Best Keith>Hope someone can help- my head hurts now so I'm going to lie down.>>Charles List___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel
[Biofuel] Equipment auction at E-bay
I've been watching this auction for a few weeks--it's the leftover equipment from a pharmaceuticals company. I've bought one item, and found the seller to be quick, responsive, and reasonable. Here's something someone here might be able to use for methanol reclamation (I don't know the specs on the item, but it looks equipped for a vacuum): http://cgi.ebay.com/DCI-Manufacturing-35-Liter-Tank-1-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ7614504605QQcategoryZ26237QQcmdZViewItem There are also pH meters, scales, etc. Worth looking if you're putting together a biodiesel lab on the cheap. -Sean ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Anyone tried using solar thermal hot water to heat feedstock for the reaction? I've toyed with the idea (very, very hot & sunny where I live) of just looping fifty yards of old black hose on the garage roof, connecting it to coiled copper inside the mixing tank, and circulating it slowly with a low-power solar pump. The water gets mighty hot, but I don't know if I'd be able to transfer enough of that to the oil for it to be worthwhile. On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 20:14 +0200, Hakan Falk wrote: > Zeke, > > Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, > I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where > you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal > thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost > effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for > itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this > to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years. > > The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get > very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency. > > Hakan > > > At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: > >If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? > >That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and > >can easily achieve the temperatures required. > > > >On 4/27/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places > > > electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. > > > Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small > > > fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% > > > numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude > > > burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite > > > significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is > > > generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like > > > nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best > > > option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a > > > surplus > > > watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to > > my reactor > > > so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to > > > determine > > > the viability of running it from a PV system. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% > > > efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% > > > efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 > > > times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the > > > efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the > > > power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, > > > but we are not there yet. > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically > > > 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I > > > meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not > > > without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your > > > emissions from burning?? > > > > > > J > > > > > > Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity > > > production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the > > > electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I > > > would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge > > > and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because > > > now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does > > > however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat > > > with oil, than with electricity. > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat > > > or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more > > > efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old > > > mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a > > > manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale > > > about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is > > > a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as > > > close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be > > > careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small an > > > area will degrade the oil at the heater surface. Better to use > > > several low density heaters to speed things up. > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > Jason & Katie wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > what about applejack style dewatering? get it REALLY cold so the
Re: [Biofuel] 1L Acid/Base Test Batch: Questions
The KOH is 90%. That's what I get for reading the "data sheet" instead of the web page. On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 05:33 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: > Hello Sean > > >Hi, Folks: > > > >I'm kind of new to the list; I've spent a lot of time in the > >archives already, and I know this ground has been covered. But any > >advice/input any of you want to share would be great. Oh, and: I'm > >an English professor, not a chemist, so my apologies for what must > >seem like sloppy lab documentation to some of you! > > Looks okay to me, but then I'm a journalist not a chemist. :-) > > You need to know the purity of the KOH. It's unlikely to be pure, > more likely 92% or 85%. You can find the equivalent amounts to use > here: > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#koh > > If you have some NaOH for comparison you might be able to do a sort > of comparative "titration" which will tell you the right amount of > KOH to use. > > It also helps to titrate the oil, even with the acid-base method - > though you won't use the titration result in the process itself, it > always helps to know as much as you can about your oil, especially > with first test batches, and titration tells you more than anything > else will. > > I'm a little puzzled because it seems you're using 1 litre of oil, > which should total 1,200 ml with the methanol, but you have 800 ml of > biodiesel and 110 ml of by-product, so 290 ml seems to be missing. > Still, the by-product ratio is not far off. > > Anyway, you're doing well, IMHO. The wash separates at least, albeit > somewhat slowly, and you don't mention an emulsion layer, though it > sounds like you really beat it up. > > Keep going, refine and improve and check whatever you can, and you'll > get there. > > For reprocessing, use 10% methanol and whatever you decide the KOH > equivalent is of 3.5 g NaOH per litre of oil. I doubt the pauses made > much difference. > > HTH. > > Best > > Keith > > > >Over the weekend, I tried my first test batch of acid/base stuff; > >I've had plenty of success making this using both the conventional > >and base/base reactions (I had quite a lot of success with the > >latter, actually). Here are the specs: > > > >de-watered vegetable oil (a mixture, fairly clean & used fairly lightly) > >H2SO4 (95%-98%) > >KOH (purity?) > >Methanol > > > > > >1. I warmed the veg oil to 95F & added--while stirring--80mL of Methanol > >2. I stirred that (on a little magnet stirrer) until a > >suspension clearly formed and added 1mL of H2SO4 > >3. After 20 minutes or so I paused the stirring to move the > >beaker back to the heating pad to warm it again > >4. Continued stirring for 80 more minutes > >5. Let the mixture rest for 20 hours > >6. Dissolved 4.9 g of the KOH (because I'm not sure about its > >purity) into 120ML of Methanol > >7. Heated the oil-Methanol-H2SO4 blend to 135F > >8. Slowly added the methoxide to the blend, while stirring > >9. Twice, during the hour of stirring, I had to pause to re-heat > >the oil; in all, stirred for about 75 minutes > >10. Settlement seemed very slow--it took a couple of hours to > >settle into distinct layers > >11. The glycerine layer is only about 110mL > >12. The biodiesel layer is 800mL > >13. After 4 hours of settling, I washed the biodiesel violently > >agitating it with about 600mL of fresh (though hard) water > >14. Two distinct layers formed, but it took a couple of hours > >15. 12 hours after the first wash, I drained the wash water & > >added another 600mL of fresh > >16. This second wash stage is also separating very slowly--still > >lots of white settling out. > > > >Questions: > > > >1. Would my pauses during mixing (and the fluctuating > >temperature) have greatly affected the reaction? > >2. Could the wash difficulty be the result of too much KOH in > >the initial reaction? > >3. Should I have around 80mL of additional precipitate from the > >reaction--or even more, given the total amount of the bd layer? > > > >Once I'm finished washing this batch (another couple of washes), I'm > >planning to take 100mL and re-react it, to see if I get a bit more > >glycerin. > >Any thoughts on how much KOH/Methanol I should try for that? > > > >Thanks much! > > > >Sean > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-
Re: [Biofuel] 1L Acid/Base Test Batch: Questions
Thanks, Keith. I just checked the KOH .pdf data sheet at TheChemistryStore.com, where I bought the KOH) & it says it's 100%. That doesn't seem exactly right, but it could explain the washing, given that I threw in a little extra. A titration is a good idea. I was lazily avoiding it . . . And, yeah, the final volume thing is weird. Undoubtedly, I lost a little here and there in transferring stuff to and from different containers, but certainly no more than 20 mL. Some of the Methanol has also surely evaporated . . . I must be missing something. Anyway, thanks much for the response. -Sean On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 05:33 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: > Hello Sean > > >Hi, Folks: > > > >I'm kind of new to the list; I've spent a lot of time in the > >archives already, and I know this ground has been covered. But any > >advice/input any of you want to share would be great. Oh, and: I'm > >an English professor, not a chemist, so my apologies for what must > >seem like sloppy lab documentation to some of you! > > Looks okay to me, but then I'm a journalist not a chemist. :-) > > You need to know the purity of the KOH. It's unlikely to be pure, > more likely 92% or 85%. You can find the equivalent amounts to use > here: > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#koh > > If you have some NaOH for comparison you might be able to do a sort > of comparative "titration" which will tell you the right amount of > KOH to use. > > It also helps to titrate the oil, even with the acid-base method - > though you won't use the titration result in the process itself, it > always helps to know as much as you can about your oil, especially > with first test batches, and titration tells you more than anything > else will. > > I'm a little puzzled because it seems you're using 1 litre of oil, > which should total 1,200 ml with the methanol, but you have 800 ml of > biodiesel and 110 ml of by-product, so 290 ml seems to be missing. > Still, the by-product ratio is not far off. > > Anyway, you're doing well, IMHO. The wash separates at least, albeit > somewhat slowly, and you don't mention an emulsion layer, though it > sounds like you really beat it up. > > Keep going, refine and improve and check whatever you can, and you'll > get there. > > For reprocessing, use 10% methanol and whatever you decide the KOH > equivalent is of 3.5 g NaOH per litre of oil. I doubt the pauses made > much difference. > > HTH. > > Best > > Keith > > > >Over the weekend, I tried my first test batch of acid/base stuff; > >I've had plenty of success making this using both the conventional > >and base/base reactions (I had quite a lot of success with the > >latter, actually). Here are the specs: > > > >de-watered vegetable oil (a mixture, fairly clean & used fairly lightly) > >H2SO4 (95%-98%) > >KOH (purity?) > >Methanol > > > > > >1. I warmed the veg oil to 95F & added--while stirring--80mL of Methanol > >2. I stirred that (on a little magnet stirrer) until a > >suspension clearly formed and added 1mL of H2SO4 > >3. After 20 minutes or so I paused the stirring to move the > >beaker back to the heating pad to warm it again > >4. Continued stirring for 80 more minutes > >5. Let the mixture rest for 20 hours > >6. Dissolved 4.9 g of the KOH (because I'm not sure about its > >purity) into 120ML of Methanol > >7. Heated the oil-Methanol-H2SO4 blend to 135F > >8. Slowly added the methoxide to the blend, while stirring > >9. Twice, during the hour of stirring, I had to pause to re-heat > >the oil; in all, stirred for about 75 minutes > >10. Settlement seemed very slow--it took a couple of hours to > >settle into distinct layers > >11. The glycerine layer is only about 110mL > >12. The biodiesel layer is 800mL > >13. After 4 hours of settling, I washed the biodiesel violently > >agitating it with about 600mL of fresh (though hard) water > >14. Two distinct layers formed, but it took a couple of hours > >15. 12 hours after the first wash, I drained the wash water & > >added another 600mL of fresh > >16. This second wash stage is also separating very slowly--still > >lots of white settling out. > > > >Questions: > > > >1. Would my pauses during mixing (and the fluctuating > >temperature) have greatly affected the reaction? > >2. Could the wash difficulty be the result of too much KOH in > >the initial reaction? > >3. Should I have around 80mL of additional precipitate from the > >reaction--or even more, given the total amount of the bd layer? > > > >Once I'm finished washing this batch (another couple of washes), I'm > >planning to take 100mL and re-react it, to see if I get a bit more > >glycerin. > >Any thoughts on how much KOH/Methanol I should try for that? > > > >Thanks much! > > > >Sean > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >
[Biofuel] 1L Acid/Base Test Batch: Questions
Hi, Folks: I'm kind of new to the list; I've spent a lot of time in the archives already, and I know this ground has been covered. But any advice/input any of you want to share would be great. Oh, and: I'm an English professor, not a chemist, so my apologies for what must seem like sloppy lab documentation to some of you! Over the weekend, I tried my first test batch of acid/base stuff; I've had plenty of success making this using both the conventional and base/base reactions (I had quite a lot of success with the latter, actually). Here are the specs: de-watered vegetable oil (a mixture, fairly clean & used fairly lightly) H2SO4 (95%-98%) KOH (purity?) Methanol I warmed the veg oil to 95F & added--while stirring--80mL of Methanol I stirred that (on a little magnet stirrer) until a suspension clearly formed and added 1mL of H2SO4 After 20 minutes or so I paused the stirring to move the beaker back to the heating pad to warm it again Continued stirring for 80 more minutes Let the mixture rest for 20 hours Dissolved 4.9 g of the KOH (because I'm not sure about its purity) into 120ML of Methanol Heated the oil-Methanol-H2SO4 blend to 135F Slowly added the methoxide to the blend, while stirring Twice, during the hour of stirring, I had to pause to re-heat the oil; in all, stirred for about 75 minutes Settlement seemed very slow--it took a couple of hours to settle into distinct layers The glycerine layer is only about 110mL The biodiesel layer is 800mL After 4 hours of settling, I washed the biodiesel violently agitating it with about 600mL of fresh (though hard) water Two distinct layers formed, but it took a couple of hours 12 hours after the first wash, I drained the wash water & added another 600mL of fresh This second wash stage is also separating very slowly--still lots of white settling out. Questions: Would my pauses during mixing (and the fluctuating temperature) have greatly affected the reaction? Could the wash difficulty be the result of too much KOH in the initial reaction? Should I have around 80mL of additional precipitate from the reaction--or even more, given the total amount of the bd layer? Once I'm finished washing this batch (another couple of washes), I'm planning to take 100mL and re-react it, to see if I get a bit more glycerin. Any thoughts on how much KOH/Methanol I should try for that? Thanks much! Sean ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Help needed.
Hey, everyone: I'll be bringing home my first drum of methanol (I've been buying it expensively in 5-gallon pails until now) in the next week or so. As I live where it gets--and stays--very hot (though the methanol will be stored in the shade, the temperature is well above 100F for most of the summer here), I was planning to vent the drum with a spring-assisted check valve. Any thoughts about why that would or wouldn't work? Thanks, Sean On 4/16/06, Mike McGinness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Chris,Good question and good thinking!Make sure it is cool, and not standing out in the sun building up pressure. Ifthe drum is left outdoors in direct sunlight it can heat up and the internalpressure can get dangerously high. If the top is bowed outwards it may be under pressure, if the lid is concave or if you can flex the lid by putting your bodyweight on it (try pushing down on it with your hands) then it is probably OK, orat least not under a lot of pressure.If it is under pressure (just be safe and assume it is!) you need to loosen the bung (one of the threaded plugs on top) very slowly until you hear some gasventing. While you are loosening it stay out of the way just in case the plugblows out (usually straight up) from the internal pressure. The pressure will relieve itself through the loose threads. It may take a while (several minutes)to relieve all the pressure, just take it slow and easy.Be safe,Mike McGinnessChris Tan wrote:> Greetings Everyone, >> Do any of you know just how to safely open a sealed 55gal steel drum> full of methanol? It's my first time.>> Thanks,> Chris>> ___ > Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] small oil presses, WVO and sustainability
Mike, et al: Could you irrigate with wash water, as well? Wouldn't that just be another form of returning all the by-product to the soil? -Sean On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 08:06 -0700, Michael Redler wrote: > Hi David, > > Going by memory, I misquoted my own post from last year. > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51322.html > > Sugar beets and ethanol production: According to a page on > http://www.green-trust.org, the estimate is 1200 gallons per acre of > land and that the 800 figure embedded in my brain is an estimate of > average annual ethanol consumption for an automobile. > > You said: "If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be > taking out > the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by photosynthesis. No > nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable?" > > ...makes sense. > > The sites I visited referred more to the prevention of parasites. > Apparently you can get worms with a "sweet tooth". Other than that, > there doesn't seem to be a reason to rotate. > > After your message, I did a little more research and found a descent > site on sugar beets and it seems like sugar beets are actually used as > a rotation crop. > > http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/sugarbeet.html > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael Redler wrote: > > Thanks Jason, Katie and Keith. > > > > The reason for my post had mostly to do with soil > degradation. I was > > researching what crops gave the best yield for ethanol > production and > > began looking at sugar beets as a possibility. However, the > research > > suggests that root crops can't be planted every year because > of what > > it takes out of the soil and that you should rotate three > other crops > > in between (four year rotation). My interpretation was that > if I never > > wanted to step foot in a gas station again, I would need an > acre of > > land to produce (roughly) 800 gallons of ethanol. If I kept > my driving > > local, this would work - except I could only do this once > every four > > years (assuming I had the time and energy to process the > crop - agh!). > > So, I started looking at alternating my source of biofuel > and > > considered the possibility of alternating fuels (biodiesel, > ethanol, > > etc.). By the way, besides biodiesel and ethanol, the other > viable > > option I considered was/is producer gas. > > If you return all the by-product to the soil you'd only be > taking out > the alcohol itself - hydrogen and carbon fixed by > photosynthesis. No > nutrients would be removed. Wouldn't this be sustainable? > > I'm curious how you calculate 800 gallons/acre? I'm not > doubting it, > just thought I'd read about far lower yields of biodiesel > feedstocks. > > > The plan would be that after I developed a sustainable crop > rotation > > for both ethanol and biodiesel production, I would harvest > the crop > > and produce the fuel in the fall. In the meantime, I would > use last > > years crop along with other alternatives PV, wind, etc. to > stay off > > the grid. > > > > So, here's the rub; In order to direct a variety of energy > sources > > toward fueling my car (for example), It's apparent that I'll > need a > > common denominator - electric storage. That means an > electric car and > > either flex-fuel of duel generators. > > If you want to use the wind to produce electricity to run your > car with > you have a point. Why not just run the car on the alcohol? > Cars are > very intensive energy users, and liquid fuels provide very > dense energy > storage. > > --- David > > > As you can see, my plan starts to get messy in a hurry. To > keep the > > number of variables down, I was hoping for the same (best > yielding) > > crop every year without damaging the soil. > > > > Mike > > > > */Jason & Katie /* wrote: > > > > i was looking through the archives trying to find something > about > > that > > earlier. can you use the cake from an oil press as stock for > > ethanol, or has > > it been made unusable in this respect? i am fairly sure you > can > > digest and > > subdivide it, but if it could be taken that one step > further, it > > might be a > > more effici
