Re: [Biofuel] KOH carbonated

[the skapegoat]

perform a titration with each on equal amounts of vinegar. The difference in volume will tell you how to adjust your formula.  JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hello everyone,I just got 50 #s of KOH for next to nothing. It is in flake form but it is carbonated to some extent (unkown). I have some lab grade KOH that is near absolute also.Can anyone give me a complete procedure to make a comparison (Strength %) of one to the other? I want to know because if the one is 10% weaker than the other then I should be able to increase the weaker by 10% to achieve similar results. I understand that from this point I must still tweek some one way or the other. Perhaps my thinking is flawed in assuming the relationship is proportional and I should just use better KOH?Any help would
 be greatly appreciated.Jim___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] washing?

[the skapegoat]

Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small 
a value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water?
Actually, that's what I was asking about when I mentioned distilling the BD. Do you have the apparatus you are talking about? It sounds like a rather complicated series of heat exchangers. I certainly don't have the space for that at the moment, but I am making a condenser to recover BD from the glycerine level. Is there info anywhere on how much of this I should expect to retrieve?
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Re: [Biofuel] washing?

[the skapegoat]

I could be wrong, but I wonder when Joshua last made biodiesel. Have a look at this:http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35652.htmlRe: [biofuel] Best Processer

Okay then, here's a question. Why don't you write a book? I mean you're a journalist,andjournalists write things. And right or wrong, most people give more credibility to books than the internet.
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Re: [Biofuel] washing?

[the skapegoat]

I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong.

His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it.

I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without washing it.

I know about the chemical equilibrium, and not to try to remove methanol until the layers are seperated. I'm just wondering if Tickell is so worried about wasting the methanol by washing it out if there is a better way of retrieving it without worrying about leaving all that other garbage in your BD.
Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings the skapegoatThe JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental.Bad book! See:http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could have been plenty more):http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#whyWashing: Why bother?IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his exorbitant set-up.Ho-hum.Anyway, to believe that you'd have to
 believe that all the national standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to themselves.I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel.Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel instead of just washing it away?The most convenient stage to reclaim the excess methanol would be immediately after the processing, when the mix is still hot. Unfortunately that means you reverse the very reaction you've just completed (hopefully completed). You have to settle and separate the glycerine by-product first. Most of the excess methanol is in the by-product; the small proportion in the biodiesel can be recovered, if you can find an economical way of doing it.I know this still leaves excess hydroxidesAnd
 soaps.that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of washes necessaryDoubtful.and you might be able to save some of your methanol.Indeed.Best wishesKeith___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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[Biofuel] washing?

[the skapegoat]

The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental. I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. 

Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel instead of just washing it away? I know this still leaves excess hydroxides that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of washes necessary and you might be able to save some of your methanol.Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] China Stakes Claim for Global Oil Access

[the skapegoat]

I would not be surprised if China and the U.S. end up in a war over oil. China has less oil than we do, but they are essentially the ones pushing up the demand for it. Granted they aren't driving SUVs, but they've got a lot of people over there and they are getting more of a middle class.Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fg-chinaoil17jul17,0,3357282.story? coll=la-home-headlineshttp://snipurl.com/gbs4China Stakes Claim for Global Oil AccessIn its quest for crude, Beijing is dangling cash and playing on nations' discontent with the U.S. Can the two huge energy consumers coexist?By Mark Magnier, Times Staff Writer07/17/05 "Los Angeles Times" - - BEIJING - When Alberta Premier Ralph Klein toured China last year and invited business leaders to visit the Canadian province's oil sand deposits, he didn't expect an immediate response.But when Klein returned home a week later, Chinese executives were already making the rounds in Alberta, where the oil sands region is roughly the size of Florida and is believed to contain the richest reserves after Saudi Arabia.The executives' quick
 response paid off. Three of China's state-owned oil firms have since poured huge investments into the oil sands, including a 40% stake in a $3.6-billion project that will be able to send oil via a new pipeline to Canada's west coast for shipment to China and elsewhere."Clearly, China has been the talk of Calgary," said Steven Paget, an analyst for investment bank FirstEnergy Capital Corp. there.Scenes like this are being repeated around the world. Dangling cash and access to its huge market, China is dispatching legions of diplomats, surveyors and engineers across the globe to help quench the Middle Kingdom's insatiable thirst for energy.During the last two years, President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao have taken oil executives on trips to oil-rich countries from Algeria to Uzbekistan to seal major deals. The government in Beijing has welcomed top officials from all 11 members of the Organization of the
 Petroleum Exporting Countries. A major point of a trip Hu made to Moscow this month was to secure access to Russia's vast reserves.Chinese crews are building roads in Africa in exchange for the right to extract oil from remote regions. Viewers in Saudi Arabia, a nation that U.S. oil firms once had to themselves, now watch Chinese programs on satellite TV as China drills into Saudi sands. China is also taking advantage of tensions between the Bush administration and Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to wrest oil from one of the largest U.S. suppliers.To secure deals worth tens of billions of dollars, Beijing is cozying up to regimes in nations, including Iran and Sudan, that Washington labels pariahs. And it is flexing its military muscle to lay claim to contested fields in East Asia.China's aggressive search is putting it in growing competition with the United States, the world's largest oil consumer. Some
 observers even warn of a possible showdown between the two economic giants."The Bush administration's attitude toward China at the moment is to look for ways to work with them, but I don't know how sustainable this policy is going to be," said Gal Luft, executive director of the Washington-based Institute for the Analysis of Global Security, a conservative think tank. "At the end of the day, you've got two very large consumers competing over the same sandbox. Sooner or later the Chinese are going to run out of places they can look for oil."China says wealthy countries need to adapt. It notes that those countries have been the largest energy users for a century despite accounting for just 15% of world population. It also insists that its appetite for foreign oil does not challenge U.S. interests or global stability."China was never, is not and will not pose a threat to world energy supplies," Ma Kai, China's
 energy chief, said in Beijing.Still, U.S. concerns over China's recent forays grew last month after CNOOC Ltd., which is 71% owned by state-controlled China National Offshore Oil Corp., made an unsolicited $18.5-billion bid for El Segundo-based Unocal Corp. The House of Representatives passed a nonbinding resolution two weeks ago opposing the deal on national security grounds, prompting an angry response from Beijing."We demand that the U.S. Congress correct its mistaken ways of politicizing economic and trade issues," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.Before the Unocal bid, Beijing's activities had attracted relatively little attention from a U.S. administration focused on Iraq, Washington's war on terrorism and other foreign policy priorities."We're still trying to get a handle on what's happened on our watch," said a senior State Department official who asked not to be identified because he was not
 authorized to speak on the record. "More work needs to be done on this."Other analysts say the U.S. and other nations must adjust to China's new role as a major global energy 

Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein

[the skapegoat]

The chemical kinetics of fire is not understood very well. Smoking a cigarette will produce thousands of intermediate radicals, which will lead to thousands of end products, many of which are harmful. Altering temperature and other variables will lead to different end products. So unless you have empirical evidence on a specific substance, it's hard to know what is going to happen. I know people do burn it as a fuel, but I wouldn't recommend doing it in your kitchen, for instance.
R Del Bueno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello all,I am considering the use of my glycerol coproduct as a burner fuel for process heat generation (indirect via boiler).My glycerol generated while running 20% methanol is of very low viscosity (mostly likely due to the excess methanol), and seems quite usable. This may be more advantageous than recover when heating large batches.I have been searching for emissions information on this, as I have heard that toxic acrolein is produced.when glycerin is burnt at temps below 1800degF. (I have heard this about WVO/SVO usage as well).My question is how much?...as acrolein is also produced burning gasoline, diesel, and cigarettes.It seems that if the amount of acrolein produced by burning the gylerol waste is LESS than the amount that would be produced by burning the amount of petro diesel that is offset by the biodiesel..then
 net amount of acrolein is still a reduction, and hence acceptable.Any data out there?Any chemists out there who may be able to calculate an approximation?Molecular formula C3H4O (..that's little 3, little 4)-Rob..Info on Acrolein:Acrolein is principally used as a chemical intermediate in the production of acrylic acid and itsesters. Acrolein is used directly as an aquatic herbicide and algicide in irrigation canals, as amicrobiocide in oil wells, liquid hydrocarbon fuels, cooling-water towers and water treatmentponds, and as a slimicide in the manufacture of paper (IARC, 1985). Combustion of fossil fuels,tobacco smoke, and pyrolyzed animal and vegetable fats contribute to the environmentalprevalence of acrolein (IARC, 1985). Acrolein is a byproduct of fires and is one of several acutetoxicants which firefighters must endure. It is also
 formed from atmospheric reactions of 1,3-butadiene. The annual statewide industrial emissions from facilities reporting under the AirToxics Hot Spots Act in California based on the most recent inventory were estimated to be54,565 pounds of acrolein (CARB, 2000).CHRONIC TOXICITY SUMMARYACROLEIN (2-propenal, acraldehyde, allyl aldehyde, acryl aldehyde)CAS Registry Number: 107-02-8I. Chronic Toxicity SummaryInhalation reference exposure level 0.06 mg/m3 (0.03 ppb)Critical effect(s) Histological changes in nasal epithelium in ratsHazard index target(s) Respiratory system; eyesII. Physical and Chemical Properties (HSDB, 1995)Description Colorless or yellow liquid with piercing,disagreeable odorMolecular formula C3H4O (oops..thats litte 3, little 4)Molecular weight 56.1 g/molDensity 0.843 g/cm3 @ 20°CBoiling point 53°CMelting point -88°CVapor pressure 220 torr @ 20°COdor threshold
 160 ppb (370 mg/m3)(Amoore and Hautala, 1983)Solubility Soluble in ethanol, diethyl ether, and up to 20% w/v in waterConversion factor 1 ppm = 2.3 mg/m3 @ 25° C ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Burning glycerol for heat / Acrolein

[the skapegoat]

it's not.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
LOLall jokes aside, though, that's actually an interesting idea. if it were possible to keep the N and glycerine separate, and inject them into the cylinder where they would combine, then explode. . . .of course, there's the question of how energy efficient this would be (i'm assuming it would be pretty efficient since nitroglycerine is so extremely explosive). and what emissions would be like. and whether creating nitroglycerine is as easy and simple as that in the first place.-chrisIn a message dated 7/17/05 2:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How about combining the glycerin with nitrogen to create nitroglycerin? I know, nitrogen is explosive but so is hydrogen. The engines in our vehicles are using what is called "explosion propulsion". Exploding fuel pushes against pistons which are
 linked to a shaft, which is linked to the transmission. There must be a safe way to use nitroglycerin.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] biofuels would need more energy to produce than they can provide

[the skapegoat]

Is there an English version of this document."F. Desprez" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
according to anglo-us scientific studies.FD"Des études scientifiques portent un coup à l'éthanol" 07/07/2005 Journalde l'environnementLe développement de l'éthanol utilisé comme biocarburant pourrait avoirdes conséquences environnementales négatives, estiment des chercheurs.Deux recherches scientifiques viennent de remettre en cause l'intérêt dudéveloppement de l'éthanol comme biocarburant alternatif à l'essence.D'abord, une étude scientifique américaine parue dans Bioscience conclutque l'éthanol à usage de carburant réduit la biodiversité, augmentel'érosion du sol, et consomme de grandes quantités d'eau pour lenettoyage des cannes à sucre, de l'ordre de 3.900 litres par tonne.Décrits par Marcelo Dias de Oliveira et ses collègues, de l'universitéd'Etat de Washington, ces impacts environnementaux, uniquement
 liés à laculture de la canne à sucre, pourraient provoquer un coup de frein audéveloppement de l'éthanol comme carburant qui s'est justement appuyésur un argument environnemental: le CO2 produit par la combustion del'éthanol est compensé par la photosynthèse de la plante, les seulesémissions de CO2 provenant des transports et du processus industriel.Or actuellement, cet argument est aussi reconsidéré par lesscientifiques. Cette fois-ci par une étude anglo-américaine, publiéedans Nature resources research, qui estime «qu'il n'y a aucun bénéficeénergétique à utiliser la biomasse des plantes pour fabriquer ducarburant.» Selon les chercheurs de l'université de Cornell et deBerkeley, le process de fabrication d'éthanol à partir de maïs exigerait29% d'énergie de plus que celle que l'éthanol peut produire commecarburant, et celle du bois 57% de plus. Les résultats du biodieselapparaissent du même ordre avec un besoin en énergie
 pour le produire27% plus important que l'énergie dégagée en tant que carburant pour lesoja, et 118% pour le tournesol. A noter, les scientifiques n'ont pasindiqué les besoins énergétiques d'une raffinerie traditionnelle.«Utiliser de la biomasse n'est donc pas une stratégie soutenable», jugeDavid Pimental, de l'université de Cornell, dans un communiqué depresse. En outre, ces résultats montrent que les biocarburants nepermettent pas de s'affranchir de la dépendance énergétique. Or ils'agit d'un argument essentiel pour le Brésil, où l'éthanol de sucre decanne compte pour 40% du carburant consommé par les véhicules dans lepays, mais aussi pour les Etats-Unis et pour Europe où les biocarburantsdoivent atteindre un taux d'incorporation de 5,75% d'ici 2010.Reste que le véritable avenir de l'utilisation de la biomasse dans lesvéhicules est le BTL (Biomass to liquids), un gaz de synthèse, pour laplupart des spécialistes. C'est
 d'ailleurs la position décrite dansl'étude «Well to wheels» (1) du Centre commun de recherche de lacommissions européenne (2). Réalisé avec la collaboration de l'ensembledes constructeurs européens et américains et des raffineurs, le rapportétablit que «le BTL a le potentiel pour économiser substantiellementplus de gaz à effet de serre que les options de biocarburants actuels àcoût comparable et mérite d'être davantage étudié.»(1) Le rapport «Du puits à la roue» se nomme précisément «of futureautomotive fuels and powertrains in the european context».(2) Plus connu sous son nom anglais Joint research center, le Centrecommun de recherche a été créé pour aider aux décisions politiques del'Union européenne.http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html (July5, 2005 Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodieselfrom corn and other crops is not worth the energy By
 Susan S. Lang)http://www.journaldelenvironnement.net/fr/login.asp?page=%2Ffr%2Fdocument%2Fdetail%2Easp%3Fid%3D12508%26idThema%3D6%26idSousThema%3D32%26type%3DJDE%26ctx%3D2 59 (Pour accéder à ce document, merci de vous inscrire gratuitement auJDLE)http://www.6clones.com/ (Bienvenue sur le portail des biocarburants del'écologie et de l'environnement)http://www.verasun.com/releases_6_14_05.htm (Technology Breakthrough EnablesBiodiesel Production from Ethanol Plants)http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2005/06/29/news/latest_news/48908bdfeba06fd38625702f004ad254.txt (Du maïs dans le moteur,Sioux City Journal, 29/06/05)http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=310126 (Préférer sa voiture au buspeut vous conduire au tribunal Dix femmes de ménage organisaient leurcovoiturage pour aller travailler au Luxembourg. Une société de bus lesassigne pour «concurrence déloyale».Par Thomas CALINON samedi 09
 juillet2005 Liberation)___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send 

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh: Paul Harvey

[the skapegoat]

That is pretty disturbing. However, he is implicating Saudi Arabia. Interesting that a right wing-type would be doing that...Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi DougHakan, Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of Americans,enough that we have the president and legislator we have today. Anotherbroadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent remarksby him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and biologicalweapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.Pretty much, but there's this anyway:http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2569Action AlertPaul Harvey's Tribute to Slavery, Nukes, GenocideHateful rant shows Disney's double standard on speechJuly 1, 2005FAIR-LFairness  Accuracy In ReportingMedia analysis, critiques and activismVisithttp://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archive s/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.htmlto
 read his remarks. Harvey makes his living as a salesman and goodsalesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales. Harvey hasbeen selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good salesmen.He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be outraged tosubstantially affect sales. He may have back-peddled, but I don't listen tohis programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time. Luck ofthe draw that I heard that program that I did. There are good people inAmerica,Most?I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world allowsthem enough time to do so.I think maybe all of us are hoping that very fervently.All bestKeithDoug - Original Message -From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PMSubject:
 Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid:: Ryan,:: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:: :: What is the probability that: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] emissions

[the skapegoat]

yes, burning biodiesel creates carbon dioxide. Any internal combustion engine will produce carbon dioxide. But WVO, or even SVO is a renewable resource, unlike petrol. Biodiesel is not the holy grail, just one very tiny step along the way to being responsible.
john owens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
here's a toughtWhat will happen if the majority of the waste vegtable oil in theworld is being used for biodiesel which isnt curently being burned andis absorbing some of the co2 being produced by mineral diesel andproduction and mineral oil consumption growes. Will this not cause anincrease in co2 in atmospher!___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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RE: [Biofuel] magnetic stir bars.

[the skapegoat]

Thanks.

I was going to attempt to make my own. Regular stir plates cost more than I am willing to spend.
I'm thinking now it will just be easier to make a stirrer from a drill and perhaps if I scale up later I'll try to make a stir plate for mixing up methoxide.Juan Boveda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello.Once I did have this same idea but I did not find the materials and the electric engine and the electronic control but other people have done "the commercial way" for special purposes for laboratory equipment, you could try a Lab equipment supplier like:www.coleparmer.comCole-Parmer's 2003/2004 Cathalog, pag. 1735 a so called Super Magnetic Stirrer for heavy-walled container with the article code A-84160-00 Magnetic Stirrer with an stir bar article code A-08552-00 Mono-Mold measuring 2" L x 3/8 diam. maximun stirring volume is 19 Liters.Price tag is: Stirrer $1770.00 + Stir bar $ 6.80In the same Cole-Parmer Cathalog for economical stirrers for common containers up to 10 gallons you will find in page 1736, for 120 Volts at $656.00 or 230 Volts at $756.00. Stirring bars for most applications are in page
 1738-1739These might be what you are looking for but at a price here I could buy a small motorcycle, uff...Regards.Juan--From: the skapegoat [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 6/28/2005 1:22 PMFor: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] magnetic stir bars.Has anyone created a home made magnetic stir plate? I am scaling up from lab scale 100 mL batches to a 5 gallon reactor, and have some ideas for a homemade magnetic stir plate in lieu of the more typical agitation methods, and I wanted to see if others have gone down this path with any success (or failure).___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
 archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] magnetic stir bars.

[the skapegoat]

I was thinking of attaching a permanent magnet to an the rotating part of an old juicer. I still want to try it just to see if I can make it work, but I think I will try something a bit more straightforward first...Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have been working along the same exact line of thinking. Tom is probably right about stiring 5 gal of oil with a bar magnet. However where a magnetic stirrer really shines is in mixing methoxide. Stirring bars work great so long as they are confined to the area of the rotating magnetic field. The easiest way to do this is to have a small motor beneath the pot with a permanent magnet coupling to the stir bar through the stainless. I decided to get fancy and made a motorless stirrer using two home made electromagnets and some circuitry to create a rotating magnetic field. Yes there is a reason those motorless stirrers are so expensive to buy. You can make one for a lot less money if you want to do all this work, BUT now consider that when the thing is off there is nothing to hold the stir bar in place in the bottom of the big mixing
 vessel where it needs to be to work properly. In a small beaker the bar can not escape the field. A motor with a permanent magnet will hold the bar in position all the time, but with the motorless type the bar can end up anywhere in the pot when you pour in the ingredients. The little 1/2 inch bars are great for doing titrations. In fact the motorless stirrer I made is really only useful for this job. As an added benefit the home made electromagnets get warm after a little while and this is just great for warming the oil and isopropyl alcohol for the titration. Knowing what I know now though I wouldn't have spent all the time building the motorless stirrer. It works just as well to put the little titration beaker into a small jar of warm water to heat it and stir with a bar and a motor driven permanent magnet underneath.Bottom linedon't be like me, remember the KISS principle of engineering ( Keep It Simple Stupid) yeah, I
 find it necessary to teach myself that one from time to timeJoeTom Irwin wrote:Dear Skapegoat,You're probably going to have difficulty scaling up to 5 gallons using magnetic stir bars. The largest bars I have used are only 6.3 cm(2.5 inches). They can stir a liter or 2 reasonable well but 10 times that volume I have my doubts if it will mix well enough. You would have to extend your stirring times at the very least. You could also baffle your reactor for more turbulent mixing. Bigger bars and more powerful magnets may help but I have not found a source for these as yet. In thick fluids mag stirrers have a tendency to disengage and sort of whirl around the outside of the beakers I've used. Pumping may be the best alternative.Tom Irwin  Has anyone created a home made magnetic stir plate? I am scaling upfrom lab scale 100 mL batches to a 5 gallon reactor, and have some
 ideasfor a homemade magnetic stir plate in lieu of the more typical agitationmethods, and I wanted to see if others have gone down this path with anysuccess (or failure).___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel
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Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG

[the skapegoat]

If you entirely neglect friction, the only place the energy is being put to use is in acceleration and going up hills, so mpg wouldn't be a meaningful measure of what is going on. You might be able to measure something like speed per gallon. And the heat from the radiator can't be put to any good use without violating the second law of thermodynamics. All energy is eventually wasted as heat. It is a reality we have to live with.

Anyways, cars without friction are a very bad thing. Lots of accidents would happen.
I think someone else posted a reference from which you could find good estimates for friction, etc.
des [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've read of some really fantastic claims of MPG in vehicles that are either proposed or promised, and my curiosity has been piqued. The question I have in mind that is bothering me is this:Let's say for a minute that we're developing a vehicle that doesn't use any fuel when it's not moving, the heat from its combustion is reclycled, (radiators being a waste of energy, blowing heat ...AKA energy you paid for... into the atmosphere) and the energy used to go up a hill is reclaimed when going down the other side, (like the hybrids do...) and, just for the numbers we'll design it to weigh 1000 pounds. (not much luxury or padding on this vehicle.) How might one figure the maximum MPG on this vehicle, considering the amount of energy stored in a gallon of gas (or diesel) and if all the energy in this gallon were to be used in
 propelling the vehicle forward? Assuming that none of this fuel is used to run headlights, charge battery, run a heater, air conditioning, or radio? I understand that friction is a reality, but for this thought experiment, let's assume friction free bearings, and 100% transfer of power from tires to asphalt also. Wish I could recall all the physics I learned in high school, but back then we were still trying to make an ark float.If someone could point me in the right direction for the formula for the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and how far it could possibly push a specific mass in a perfect (theoretical) world, I would appreciate it.In the way that the Carnot cycle has its limits, I want to know what the limit for fuel efficiency on an infernal combustion engine is.Anyone?Thanks,doug swanson___Biofuel mailing
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[Biofuel] magnetic stir bars.

[the skapegoat]

Has anyone created a home made magnetic stir plate? I am scaling up from lab scale 100 mL batches to a 5 gallon reactor, and have some ideas for a homemade magnetic stir plate in lieu of the more typical agitation methods, and I wanted to see if others have gone down this path with any success (or failure).Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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[Biofuel] introduction and stirring question.

[the skapegoat]

I just joined. I am a chemistry teacher, and I've decided I'm going to start making biodiesel this summer. I ran some test batches this week, and I'm going to start on my reactor today. 
I read in the archives an allusion to someone attempting to make a magnetic stir plate. I had the same idea myself, but was interested in the outcome of other's attempts at this. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Electronic PH meter

[the skapegoat]

I haven't done much with biodiesel yet, but I can shed some light on pH meters vs. phenolphthalien(PHTH) from a chemist's perspective.

As acids become weaker, it is important to become more careful in the selection of a chemical indicator (such as PHTH), as the change in pH is much slower than it is for a strong acid titration. PHTH is the most commonly used indicator for strong acid titrations because it has such a clear color change. Fortunately it appears to change color over the same range as the equivalence pt. for FFAs. 
The difficulty in either method is knowing what the equivalence point is going to be. This will vary based on the type of oil and the degree of hydrogenation. I don't suspect it will vary much, but it will vary. If your goal is a pH of 8 or 9, then usingPHTH is going to be as good as a pH meter. If you have a better idea of what the equivalence point is going to be, then a pH meter works better. And if you haven't a clue, there is a rather tedious method of determining what it should be using a pH meter. I'll probalby use this method myself at least once so I have a better understanding of the behavior, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for everyone, and I certainly am not going to do it for each batch.
The point is there are a number of reasons why PHTH may not work as well as a pH meter in some cases yet works fine in other cases. This is something I think everyone will have to decide for themselves.



Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Howdy BobHowdy Kieth and Willem, the issue of the use of a pH meter as opposed to other methods for determination of the end point of a titration comes up from time to time. It seems that many believe one really needs a pH meter. I think not and here is why. Although a pH meter may be more accurate if all the variables were tightly controlled, they're not. How accurately can one measure the 1 ml of oil? One maybe two significant digits?You can measure 4ml four times as accurately, so use 4ml and divide by 4. See:Better titrationhttp://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrateAccurate measurementhttp://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#measureThis is one of the reasons, among the more obvious ones, that we always recommend starting with one-litre test batches -
 you learn precision that way. Or as much precision as you're capable of.If different oils have different densities, (they do but small) then one should really adjust the volume of oil used in the titration accordingly.That will start to matter when you get to high-FFA oils titrating at say 7 or 8ml or above, very marginal at less than that IMHO. We've processed higher titration oils than 7 or 8 accurately and reliably (single-stage base) using pH meters, but phenolphthalein wasn't reliable at that level.Because density is a function of temperature, how accurately does one know the temperature?At processing temperature.How accurately can one prepare the titrant solution? How accurately can one measure the titrant? Finally the titration is done in a nonaqueous heterogeneous solution, hence pH isn't even strictly defined; pH being defined as minus the log of the
 hydrogen ion concentration in water.Bob, how can it be a non-aqueous solution when you're adding 0.1% v/w NaOH (or KOH) solution which is 99.9% water?If you heat the oil/isopropyl alcohol mix to get homogeneity, the hydrogen ion concentration changes. (It is actually worse, it is the hydrogen ion activity, but that is another matter.)But it will be the same as what's encountered in the subsequent processing.Hence use of a pH meter to me is overkill. What you get is a very precise endpoint for a titration which is really fairly inaccurate, due to the aforementioned difficulties in the volumetric measurements, temperature, etc.We've had three different pH meters, well-calibrated and maintained, in consistent agreement and differing from phenolphthalein results, and the pH meter results were consistently borne out by the subsequent processing results, whereas phenolphthalein
 were off, this with high-FFA oils where you can really see the difference.The phenolphthalein was obtained from two different lab supply houses and was fresh. We use phenolphthalein for demos and at our seminars because of the pretty pink colour and it's a cheap entry, but we seldom use it otherwise. At our workshops we use pH meters.I use phenolphthalein to determine the endpoint. It is quick, requires no calibration, costs a heck of a lot less than a pH meter, and provides sufficient precision for the measurement at hand.To each his own Bob.Best wishesKeithHi WillemHi all,I am slowly getting the parts together to construct a small biodiesel set-up(approx. 30 litres).When I told a friend recently avout my plans he gave me an electronic PHmeter, pen type. Accuracy is 1
 decimal. He said this would replace thetitration, but could give me no more info.It won't replace titration, you use it for titration. You can use phenolphthalein, or