Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hi Terry

>Hi Keith,
>
>This is excellent information.  One further point to add to this discussion
>is that agriculture land is not being preserved.  Other uses such as
>industry, retail/wholesale properites, housing and many non agricultural
>users are all using good land that is suitable for growing crops.  The other
>problem is that livestock producers use 90% of the grains grown in North
>America to feed livestock.

See:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html
Biofuels - Food or Fuel?

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html#grainexports
US grain exports

>(Using that land to grow plant foods to feed
>humans is much better use of land; livestock should be grazed on marginal
>land only)

Not so, unless you'd condemn farming to ever-declining soil fertility 
and ever-increasing chemical fertiliser inputs, like so much of it 
now. We've discussed this many times here, and there's no getting 
round it, nor any need to: sustainable farming means mixed farming - 
farming with animals. "... Sow a piece of land with a good pasture 
mixture and then divide it in two with a fence. Graze one half 
heavily and repeatedly with cattle, mow the other half as necessary 
and leave the mowings there in place to decay back into the soil. On 
the grazed half, you've removed the crop (several times) and taken 
away a large yield of milk and beef. On the other half you've removed 
nothing. Plough up both halves and plant a grain crop, or any crop. 
Which half has the bigger and better yield? The grazed half, by far. 
"Ley Farming" explains why "grass is the most important crop" and how 
to manage grass leys. Leys are temporary pastures in a rotation, and 
provide more than enough fertility for the succeeding crops: working 
together, grass and grazing animals turn the land into a huge living 
compost pile."

True sustainable farming. See:
Ley Farming
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ley

>Also cash crops, such as sugar cane, tobacco and coffee, use a
>lot of land in third world countries were starvation is an issue.
>My other point to add to this issue of solving the land use problem would be
>that we should not follow the petroleum pattern.  Having a few huge big
>players creating a single type of energy for a very large number of
>consumers is not a good solution.  Small energy producers producing a large
>variety of different types of energy for a small number of consumers is a
>better solution.
>My point is that we do not all have to use Bio Fuel.  Here in British
>Columbia, Canada we have a surplus of Hydro Electricity and we also have the
>University of British Columbia working on creating fuel cells.  By using
>clean Hydro electricity plus wind, solar, tides (lunar), geothermal, micro
>hydro and many types of alternative energies, we could have a small number
>of people driving cars using hydrogen fuel cells.  Some urban people might
>use battery powered cars.  Then we could create other solutions such as car
>sharing, better transit and the New Urbanism, smart growth ideas.

"A sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use, 
great improvements in energy efficiency, and decentralisation of 
supply to the local-economy level, along with the use of all 
ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as local 
circumstances require." See below -- "A different approach".

>In summary, Global Warming is a bigger issue than using too much land for
>growing crops for Bio Fuel.

Of course it is, but in fact it's the same issue.

Best wishes

Keith


>Terry Dyck
>
>
> >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >Subject: [Biofuel]  The bad news about Biodiesel
> >Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 17:51:30 +0900
> >
> >Hello Jim
> >
> >See below...
> >
> > >I saw an article in the Trader's Dispatch ( an agricultural paper
> > >printed in Valier Montana) that made me wonder who will win the race.
> > >First some background:
> > >The paper showed a vendor of one of these super duper biodiesel
> > >"automatic generators" showing a crowd that included the State Governor
> > >how fast and simple it is to make Biodiesel.  Some rancher friends said
> > >he gave the Governor a gallon of Biodiesel.  As I understand it this guy
> > >started with some WVO and in about 3 hours presented the Gov with a
> > >gallon of the good stuff. ( according to a friend of mine who goaded me
> > >about taking so long to produce my Bio) Anyway I explained that Good Bio
> > >needs some time to do right or else it is not worth putting in the
> > >tank.  So, now I see these &q

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Mike Weaver]

And we're not even into water, dropping aquifers, and the amount it 
takes for one pound of beef.

Terry Dyck wrote:

>Hi Keith,
>
>This is excellent information.  One further point to add to this discussion 
>is that agriculture land is not being preserved.  Other uses such as 
>industry, retail/wholesale properites, housing and many non agricultural 
>users are all using good land that is suitable for growing crops.  The other 
>problem is that livestock producers use 90% of the grains grown in North 
>America to feed livestock. (Using that land to grow plant foods to feed 
>humans is much better use of land; livestock should be grazed on marginal 
>land only) Also cash crops, such as sugar cane, tobacco and coffee, use a 
>lot of land in third world countries were starvation is an issue.
>My other point to add to this issue of solving the land use problem would be 
>that we should not follow the petroleum pattern.  Having a few huge big 
>players creating a single type of energy for a very large number of 
>consumers is not a good solution.  Small energy producers producing a large 
>variety of different types of energy for a small number of consumers is a 
>better solution.
>My point is that we do not all have to use Bio Fuel.  Here in British 
>Columbia, Canada we have a surplus of Hydro Electricity and we also have the 
>University of British Columbia working on creating fuel cells.  By using 
>clean Hydro electricity plus wind, solar, tides (lunar), geothermal, micro 
>hydro and many types of alternative energies, we could have a small number 
>of people driving cars using hydrogen fuel cells.  Some urban people might 
>use battery powered cars.  Then we could create other solutions such as car 
>sharing, better transit and the New Urbanism, smart growth ideas.
>In summary, Global Warming is a bigger issue than using too much land for 
>growing crops for Bio Fuel.
>
>Terry Dyck
>
>
>  
>
>>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Subject: [Biofuel]  The bad news about Biodiesel
>>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 17:51:30 +0900
>>
>>Hello Jim
>>
>>See below...
>>
>>
>>
>>>I saw an article in the Trader's Dispatch ( an agricultural paper
>>>printed in Valier Montana) that made me wonder who will win the race.
>>>First some background:
>>>The paper showed a vendor of one of these super duper biodiesel
>>>"automatic generators" showing a crowd that included the State Governor
>>>how fast and simple it is to make Biodiesel.  Some rancher friends said
>>>he gave the Governor a gallon of Biodiesel.  As I understand it this guy
>>>started with some WVO and in about 3 hours presented the Gov with a
>>>gallon of the good stuff. ( according to a friend of mine who goaded me
>>>about taking so long to produce my Bio) Anyway I explained that Good Bio
>>>needs some time to do right or else it is not worth putting in the
>>>tank.  So, now I see these "fleecers" selling these new wonder super
>>>dupers and spreading their form of the gospel about Biodiesel while they
>>>sell these to the uninitiated public for 5-10K a pop.
>>>
>>>Now on the other hand we have the people that care about Biodiesel and
>>>what it takes to produce quality fuel-getting the word of truth out
>>>about the fuel.
>>>
>>>I now go back to my question, who will win the race to get the message 
>>>  
>>>
>>out?
>>
>>
>>>Why does this seem so like the Current U.S. Administration vs the
>>>public? or do am I just to cynical?
>>>
>>>Jim
>>>  
>>>
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch
>>How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?
>>
>>Two very frequently asked questions.
>>
>>Frequently given answers: "Not enough" and "Too much."
>>
>>Are they the right answers?
>>
>>Seeking to bridge the seemingly unbridgeable gap, there's widespread
>>fascination with high-yielding oil crops, particularly oil-bearing
>>algae, with oil palms running second.
>>
>>It seems obvious that the highest-yielding crops will produce the
>>most energy from the least amount of land.
>>
>>But high yield is not the only factor in farming, and it may not
>>always be the most important factor. It can make more sense for a
>>farmer to grow a lower-yielding crop if it has more useful
>>by-products or requires fewer inputs or less labour or it fixes more
>

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Keith,

This is excellent information.  One further point to add to this discussion 
is that agriculture land is not being preserved.  Other uses such as 
industry, retail/wholesale properites, housing and many non agricultural 
users are all using good land that is suitable for growing crops.  The other 
problem is that livestock producers use 90% of the grains grown in North 
America to feed livestock. (Using that land to grow plant foods to feed 
humans is much better use of land; livestock should be grazed on marginal 
land only) Also cash crops, such as sugar cane, tobacco and coffee, use a 
lot of land in third world countries were starvation is an issue.
My other point to add to this issue of solving the land use problem would be 
that we should not follow the petroleum pattern.  Having a few huge big 
players creating a single type of energy for a very large number of 
consumers is not a good solution.  Small energy producers producing a large 
variety of different types of energy for a small number of consumers is a 
better solution.
My point is that we do not all have to use Bio Fuel.  Here in British 
Columbia, Canada we have a surplus of Hydro Electricity and we also have the 
University of British Columbia working on creating fuel cells.  By using 
clean Hydro electricity plus wind, solar, tides (lunar), geothermal, micro 
hydro and many types of alternative energies, we could have a small number 
of people driving cars using hydrogen fuel cells.  Some urban people might 
use battery powered cars.  Then we could create other solutions such as car 
sharing, better transit and the New Urbanism, smart growth ideas.
In summary, Global Warming is a bigger issue than using too much land for 
growing crops for Bio Fuel.

Terry Dyck


>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel]  The bad news about Biodiesel
>Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 17:51:30 +0900
>
>Hello Jim
>
>See below...
>
> >I saw an article in the Trader's Dispatch ( an agricultural paper
> >printed in Valier Montana) that made me wonder who will win the race.
> >First some background:
> >The paper showed a vendor of one of these super duper biodiesel
> >"automatic generators" showing a crowd that included the State Governor
> >how fast and simple it is to make Biodiesel.  Some rancher friends said
> >he gave the Governor a gallon of Biodiesel.  As I understand it this guy
> >started with some WVO and in about 3 hours presented the Gov with a
> >gallon of the good stuff. ( according to a friend of mine who goaded me
> >about taking so long to produce my Bio) Anyway I explained that Good Bio
> >needs some time to do right or else it is not worth putting in the
> >tank.  So, now I see these "fleecers" selling these new wonder super
> >dupers and spreading their form of the gospel about Biodiesel while they
> >sell these to the uninitiated public for 5-10K a pop.
> >
> >Now on the other hand we have the people that care about Biodiesel and
> >what it takes to produce quality fuel-getting the word of truth out
> >about the fuel.
> >
> >I now go back to my question, who will win the race to get the message 
>out?
> >
> >Why does this seem so like the Current U.S. Administration vs the
> >public? or do am I just to cynical?
> >
> >Jim
>
>
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch
>How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?
>
>Two very frequently asked questions.
>
>Frequently given answers: "Not enough" and "Too much."
>
>Are they the right answers?
>
>Seeking to bridge the seemingly unbridgeable gap, there's widespread
>fascination with high-yielding oil crops, particularly oil-bearing
>algae, with oil palms running second.
>
>It seems obvious that the highest-yielding crops will produce the
>most energy from the least amount of land.
>
>But high yield is not the only factor in farming, and it may not
>always be the most important factor. It can make more sense for a
>farmer to grow a lower-yielding crop if it has more useful
>by-products or requires fewer inputs or less labour or it fixes more
>soil nitrogen for fertiliser or it fits a crop rotation better. Or if
>it fits an integrated on-farm biofuels production system better. The
>how-much-land estimates don't seem to include such things as
>integrated on-farm biofuels production systems. There are quite a lot
>of things they don't include.
>
>
>Sustainable farming
>
>Biofuels crops have to be grown, and there's a lot of common ground
>between growing sustainable fuel and growing food sustainably.
>
>Large-scale industrialised farm

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

>See: "Toxic Sludge is Good for You" on Amazon

Better:
http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy.html
Toxic Sludge Is Good For You - Center for Media and Democracy

Hmm, time to post this again:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/PRcorrupt.html

War On Truth

The Secret Battle for the American Mind

An Interview with John Stauber

Published in "The Sun"

March 1999

Australian academic Alex Carey once wrote that "the twentieth century 
has been characterized by three developments of great political 
importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, 
and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting 
corporate power against democracy."

In societies like ours, corporate propaganda is delivered through 
advertising and public relations. Most people recognize that 
advertising is propaganda. We understand that whoever paid for and 
designed an ad wants us to think or feel a certain way, vote for a 
certain candidate, or purchase a certain product. Public relations, 
on the other hand, is much more insidious. Because it's disguised as 
information, we often don't realize we are being influenced by public 
relations. But this multi-billion-dollar transnational industry's 
propaganda campaigns affect our private and public lives every day. 
PR firms that most people have never heard of - such as 
Burson-Marsteller, Hill & Knowlton, and Ketchum - are working on 
behalf of myriad powerful interests, from dictatorships to the 
cosmetic industry, manipulating public opinion, policy making, and 
the flow of information.

As editor of the quarterly investigative journal PR Watch, John 
Stauber exposes how public relations works and helps people to 
understand it. He hasn't always been a watchdog journalist, though. 
He worked for more than twenty years as an activist and organizer for 
various causes: the environment, peace, social justice, neighborhood 
concerns. Eventually, it dawned on him that public opinion on every 
issue he cared about was being managed by influential, politically 
connected PR operatives with nearly limitless budgets. "Public 
relations is a perversion of the democratic process," he says. "I 
knew I had to fight it."

In addition to starting PR Watch, Stauber founded the Center for 
Media and Democracy, the first and only organization dedicated to 
monitoring and exposing PR propaganda. In 1995, Common Courage Press 
published a book by Stauber and his colleague Sheldon Rampton titled 
Toxic Sludge Is Good for You: Lies, Damn Lies, and the Public 
Relations Industry. Their second book, Mad Cow U.S.A.: Could the 
Nightmare Happen Here?, came out in 1997 and examined the 
public-relations coverup of the risk of mad-cow disease in the U.S.

I interviewed Stauber over dinner at the home he shares with his 
wife, Laura, in Madison, Wisconsin. He can be reached at: PR Watch, 
3318 Gregory St., Madison, WI 53711, (608) 233-3346, or at 
www.prwatch.org.

Jensen: How is a propaganda war waged?

Stauber: The key is invisibility. Once propaganda becomes visible, 
it's less effective. Public relations is effective in manipulating 
opinion - and thus public policy - only if people believe that the 
message covertly delivered by the PR campaign is not propaganda at 
all but simply common sense or accepted reality. For instance, there 
is a con--sensus within the scientific community that global warming 
is real and that the burning of fossil fuels is a major cause of the 
problem. But to the petroleum industry, the automobile industry, the 
coal industry, and other industries that profit from fossil-fuel 
consumption, this is merely an inconvenient message that needs to be 
"debunked" because it could lead to public policies that reduce their 
profits. So, with the help of PR firms, these vested interests create 
and fund industry front groups such as the Global Climate Coalition. 
The coalition then selects, promotes, and publicizes scientists who 
proclaim global warming a myth and characterize hard evidence of 
global climate change as "junk science" being pushed by self-serving 
environmental groups out to scare the public for fund-raising 
purposes.

Another industry front group is the Hudson Institute, a prominent 
far-right think tank espousing the view that global climate change 
will be beneficial! The Hudson Institute is funded by the American 
Trucking Association, the Ford Motor Company, Allison Engine Company, 
Bombardier, and McDonnell Douglas, among others. The Global Climate 
Coalition and the Hudson Institute are routinely quoted in the news 
media, where they promote their message of "Don't worry, burn lots of 
oil, gas, and coal." In order to confuse the public and manipulate 
opinion and policy to their advantage, corporations spend billions of 
dollars a year hiring PR firms to cultivate the press, discredit 
their critics, spy on and co-opt citizens' groups, and use polls to 
find out what images and messages will resonate with target audiences.

For obvious re

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Mike Weaver]

See: "Toxic Sludge is Good for You" on Amazon

Keith Addison wrote:

>Hello John, Sten and all
>
>  
>
>>While I agree that biofuels need to be done sustainably in the long term
>>(as does virtually everyone on this list I'd guess), but this series of
>>articles smells like astroturfing to me.
>>
>>
>
>Thanks for the sourcewatch link. Denis Avery and son Alex do nothing 
>but astroturfing. See eg "Talking pure manure":
>http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous2.html#1008
>
>Denis T. Avery, author of the book "Saving the Planet with Pesticides 
>and Plastic - The Environmental Triumph of High-Yield Farming". LOL! 
>It isn't even high-yield.
>
>In their babe-like innocence the Hudson Institute used to have a 
>donors page tucked away at their website until they woke up to the 
>fact that it was a stick and people were hitting them with it. So if 
>you go to that url now (below) you get a "Page not found".
>
>Er, page found:
>
>  
>
>>... Thanks to Ericka and Rich Dana, who posted the information at the
>>bottom of this message on 26 Feb. 2000 to SANET on the Hudson
>>Institute's larger and corporate donors. Several caveats:
>>
>>--This list is for the Hudson Institute in general. Avery's project,
>>the "Center for Global Food Issues," which is one of the Hudson
>>Institute's "research centers," does not provide funding sources on
>>its Web site.
>>
>>--This more general list was edited from the list here:
>>http://www.hudson.org/futurecast/donors.htm
>>
>>--The list reflects 1998 donations.
>>
>>My guess is that the Hudson Institute's larger circles of influence
>>buy the Averys considerable access to the mass media--another form of
>>capital (cultural/social). Particularly since some of the major
>>contributors to Hudson include Burson-Marsteller, Ernst & Young, and
>>Arthur Andersen; my guess is they're providing more than the
>>documented monetary contributions.
>>
>>My guess is further that most of the funding for the Averys' "Center
>>for Global Food Issues" comes in the form of speakers' honoraria,
>>rather than salaries from the organization.
>>
>>Don't know whether this helps, Bill, but FYI.
>>
>>
>>peace
>>mish
>>
>>~~~
>>
>>Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 11:26:33 -0800
>>From: Ericka & Rich Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: FW: Hudson Institute Donor List
>>Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>Please go to http://www.hudson.org/futurecast/donors.htm to see the
>>minimum level of donation for each level:
>>
>>The lowest level of donation is $50 for FRIENDS.  The highest is over
>>$25,000 for TRUSTEE's and buys the donor special consultation and the
>>opportunity to meet politicians in Washington, D.C.
>>
>>This is an edited list of 1998 Donors to Hudson Institute ( from
>>their website).  I have not included individuals and have focused on
>>companies, corporations, etc...  Remember that the Hudson Institute
>>has a variety of ongoing projects in education, defense, human
>>resource management, etc.
>>
>>
>>TRUSTEE'S CIRCLE
>>
>>American United Life Insurance
>>Capital Group
>>CINergy, Inc.
>>Clarian Health Group, Inc.
>>Conseco, Inc.
>>Deere & Company
>>The William H. Donner Foundation, Inc.
>>Dow AgroSciences
>>Eli Lilly and Company
>>Enron Corporation
>>Fieldstead & Company
>>Global Crop Protection Federation
>>Goodwill Industries of S. E. Wisconsin
>>Home Equity Leaders Lenders Organization
>>IPALCO Enterprises, Inc.
>>W. K. Kellogg Foundation
>>Korea Foundation
>>Lilly Endowment, Inc.
>>National Association of Water Companies
>>National Cable Television Association
>>Novartis Crop protection, Inc.
>>NWO Resources, Inc.
>>John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
>>The Pew Charitable Trusts
>>Walton Family Foundation, Inc.
>>
>>
>>CHAIRMAN'S CIRCLE
>>
>>American Association of Retired Persons
>>Bell Atlantic
>>BellSouth Corporation
>>Burson-Marsteller
>>The Chisolm Foundation
>>Dekko Foundation
>>Earhart Foundation
>>FMC Corporation
>>Ford Motor Company
>>GTE Foundation
>>IMC Global, Inc.
>>Lincoln National Corporation
>>MMM Invest, Inc.
>>Monsanto Company
>>NBD Bank, N. A.
>>Raytheon Technical Services
>>The Sanwa Bank Limited
>>State of Wisconsin
>>Sunrise Assisted Living
>>Trailmobile Trailer Corp.
>>USA Group
>>
>>
>>PRESIDENT'S CIRCLE
>>
>>American Lawn Mower Company
>>American Petroleum Institute
>>Ameritech indiana
>>Amtran, Inc.
>>Amway Corporation
>>Baker & Daniels
>>Bank One
>>Biomet, Inc.
>>Bombardier, Inc.
>>Community Hospitals of Indiana, Inc.
>>Direct Selling Association
>>Dole Food Company, Inc.
>>EDS
>>Elanco Animal Health
>>Fifth Third Bank of Central Indiana
>>First Indiana Corp.
>>General Atomics
>>Global News & Communications
>>Golden Rule Insurance Company
>>Guidant Corporation
>>Indiana Farm Bureau, Inc.
>>Indianapolis Colts, Inc.
>>Inland Foundation, Inc.
>>Ivy Tech State College
>>IWC Resources Corporation
>>LDI, Ltd.
>>Lockheed Martin Corporation
>>National Association of Temporary and Staffing Services
>>National City Bank, Indiana
>>NIPSCO Industries, Inc.
>>On

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Mike Weaver]

You're right about the farmland issue being a red herring  - my family 
was in the wheat growing business forever and the gov't used to pay us 
not to
do anything (Look up the PIK program)  Ultimately despite record wheat 
harvests almost yearly it was a maginal business at best and we sold the 
land.




Zeke Yewdall wrote:

>The studies I have read indicated that their were concerns about the
>genetically modified algae that they had developed to produce
>biodiesel, and also about the hardiness of the biodiesel (or oil
>rather) producing algae.  The US DOE wrote a 250 page study on it,
>which I can't seem to find right now.  The UNH biodiesel group has
>some info too.
>http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
>
>The competing for farmland for food production is a red herring in the
>US.  We currently pay farmers to not grow anything, and alot of the
>wheat and corn they do grow goes to feed factory farmed animals, or to
>flood foreign markets and drive their local farmers out of business. 
>Putting the US farmers to work growing something useful instead would
>be good.h
>
>Zeke
>
>On 11/24/05, Mehmet Ersan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Yes John as you have said there is not a company that specified on biodiesel
>>production from algea. I heard that large farms must be needed to product
>>yeald. May be its not true.. but i could not find a good internet address
>>about this production style.
>>
>>
>>
>>On 11/24/05, john owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>What I would like to know is why these big biodiesel companys in europe
>>>  
>>>
>>that are sabose to be ahead in the biodiesel industry haven't
>>
>>
>>>started using algae to produce biodiesel.
>>>
>>>This is taken from wikipedia biodiesel
>>>  
>>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
>>
>>
>>>The production of algae to harvest oil for biodiesel has not been
>>>  
>>>
>>undertaken on a commercial scale, but working feasibility studies have been
>>conducted to arrive at the above yield estimate. In addition to a high
>>yield, this solution does not compete with agriculture for food, requiring
>>neither farmland nor fresh water.
>>
>>
>>>john
>>>___
>>>Biofuel mailing list
>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>
>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>
>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>>  
>>>
>>messages):
>>
>>
>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>  
>



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Zeke Yewdall]

The studies I have read indicated that their were concerns about the
genetically modified algae that they had developed to produce
biodiesel, and also about the hardiness of the biodiesel (or oil
rather) producing algae.  The US DOE wrote a 250 page study on it,
which I can't seem to find right now.  The UNH biodiesel group has
some info too.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

The competing for farmland for food production is a red herring in the
US.  We currently pay farmers to not grow anything, and alot of the
wheat and corn they do grow goes to feed factory farmed animals, or to
flood foreign markets and drive their local farmers out of business. 
Putting the US farmers to work growing something useful instead would
be good.h

Zeke

On 11/24/05, Mehmet Ersan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yes John as you have said there is not a company that specified on biodiesel
> production from algea. I heard that large farms must be needed to product
> yeald. May be its not true.. but i could not find a good internet address
> about this production style.
>
>
>
> On 11/24/05, john owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > What I would like to know is why these big biodiesel companys in europe
> that are sabose to be ahead in the biodiesel industry haven't
> > started using algae to produce biodiesel.
> >
> > This is taken from wikipedia biodiesel
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
> > The production of algae to harvest oil for biodiesel has not been
> undertaken on a commercial scale, but working feasibility studies have been
> conducted to arrive at the above yield estimate. In addition to a high
> yield, this solution does not compete with agriculture for food, requiring
> neither farmland nor fresh water.
> >
> > john
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[john owens]

 
 
Thanks for the link frantz.
 
 
 
 
Yes John as you have said there is not a company that specified on biodieselproduction from algea. I heard that large farms must be needed to productyeald. May be its not true.. but i could not find a good internet address
about this production style. 
 
 
 
Here is a website I found; 
http://www.americanenergyindependence.com/biodiesel.html 
 
On 11/24/05, john owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What I would like to know is why these big biodiesel companys in europe
> that are sabose to be ahead in the biodiesel industry haven't> started using algae to produce biodiesel.>> This is taken from wikipedia biodiesel> 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel> *The production of algae to harvest oil for biodiesel has not been> undertaken on a commercial scale, but working feasibility studies have been> conducted to arrive at the above yield estimate. In addition to a high
> yield, this solution does not compete with agriculture for food, requiring> neither farmland nor fresh water. *> **> john 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello John, Sten and all

>While I agree that biofuels need to be done sustainably in the long term
>(as does virtually everyone on this list I'd guess), but this series of
>articles smells like astroturfing to me.

Thanks for the sourcewatch link. Denis Avery and son Alex do nothing 
but astroturfing. See eg "Talking pure manure":
http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous2.html#1008

Denis T. Avery, author of the book "Saving the Planet with Pesticides 
and Plastic - The Environmental Triumph of High-Yield Farming". LOL! 
It isn't even high-yield.

In their babe-like innocence the Hudson Institute used to have a 
donors page tucked away at their website until they woke up to the 
fact that it was a stick and people were hitting them with it. So if 
you go to that url now (below) you get a "Page not found".

Er, page found:

>... Thanks to Ericka and Rich Dana, who posted the information at the
>bottom of this message on 26 Feb. 2000 to SANET on the Hudson
>Institute's larger and corporate donors. Several caveats:
>
>--This list is for the Hudson Institute in general. Avery's project,
>the "Center for Global Food Issues," which is one of the Hudson
>Institute's "research centers," does not provide funding sources on
>its Web site.
>
>--This more general list was edited from the list here:
>http://www.hudson.org/futurecast/donors.htm
>
>--The list reflects 1998 donations.
>
>My guess is that the Hudson Institute's larger circles of influence
>buy the Averys considerable access to the mass media--another form of
>capital (cultural/social). Particularly since some of the major
>contributors to Hudson include Burson-Marsteller, Ernst & Young, and
>Arthur Andersen; my guess is they're providing more than the
>documented monetary contributions.
>
>My guess is further that most of the funding for the Averys' "Center
>for Global Food Issues" comes in the form of speakers' honoraria,
>rather than salaries from the organization.
>
>Don't know whether this helps, Bill, but FYI.
>
>
>peace
>mish
>
>~~~
>
>Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 11:26:33 -0800
>From: Ericka & Rich Dana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: FW: Hudson Institute Donor List
>Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Please go to http://www.hudson.org/futurecast/donors.htm to see the
>minimum level of donation for each level:
>
>The lowest level of donation is $50 for FRIENDS.  The highest is over
>$25,000 for TRUSTEE's and buys the donor special consultation and the
>opportunity to meet politicians in Washington, D.C.
>
>This is an edited list of 1998 Donors to Hudson Institute ( from
>their website).  I have not included individuals and have focused on
>companies, corporations, etc...  Remember that the Hudson Institute
>has a variety of ongoing projects in education, defense, human
>resource management, etc.
>
>
>TRUSTEE'S CIRCLE
>
>American United Life Insurance
>Capital Group
>CINergy, Inc.
>Clarian Health Group, Inc.
>Conseco, Inc.
>Deere & Company
>The William H. Donner Foundation, Inc.
>Dow AgroSciences
>Eli Lilly and Company
>Enron Corporation
>Fieldstead & Company
>Global Crop Protection Federation
>Goodwill Industries of S. E. Wisconsin
>Home Equity Leaders Lenders Organization
>IPALCO Enterprises, Inc.
>W. K. Kellogg Foundation
>Korea Foundation
>Lilly Endowment, Inc.
>National Association of Water Companies
>National Cable Television Association
>Novartis Crop protection, Inc.
>NWO Resources, Inc.
>John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.
>The Pew Charitable Trusts
>Walton Family Foundation, Inc.
>
>
>CHAIRMAN'S CIRCLE
>
>American Association of Retired Persons
>Bell Atlantic
>BellSouth Corporation
>Burson-Marsteller
>The Chisolm Foundation
>Dekko Foundation
>Earhart Foundation
>FMC Corporation
>Ford Motor Company
>GTE Foundation
>IMC Global, Inc.
>Lincoln National Corporation
>MMM Invest, Inc.
>Monsanto Company
>NBD Bank, N. A.
>Raytheon Technical Services
>The Sanwa Bank Limited
>State of Wisconsin
>Sunrise Assisted Living
>Trailmobile Trailer Corp.
>USA Group
>
>
>PRESIDENT'S CIRCLE
>
>American Lawn Mower Company
>American Petroleum Institute
>Ameritech indiana
>Amtran, Inc.
>Amway Corporation
>Baker & Daniels
>Bank One
>Biomet, Inc.
>Bombardier, Inc.
>Community Hospitals of Indiana, Inc.
>Direct Selling Association
>Dole Food Company, Inc.
>EDS
>Elanco Animal Health
>Fifth Third Bank of Central Indiana
>First Indiana Corp.
>General Atomics
>Global News & Communications
>Golden Rule Insurance Company
>Guidant Corporation
>Indiana Farm Bureau, Inc.
>Indianapolis Colts, Inc.
>Inland Foundation, Inc.
>Ivy Tech State College
>IWC Resources Corporation
>LDI, Ltd.
>Lockheed Martin Corporation
>National Association of Temporary and Staffing Services
>National City Bank, Indiana
>NIPSCO Industries, Inc.
>Ontario Corporation
>Pfizer, Inc.
>Reilly Industries, Inc.
>SerVaas, Inc.
>Texans for Lawsuit Reform
>Tribune Broadcasting Company
>The Williams Companies, Inc.
>
>
>BENEFACTOR'S CIRCLE
>
>Accurate Castings, Inc.
>AFSCME Council 62 Education
>Arthur And

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Mehmet Ersan]

Yes John as you have said there is not a company that specified on biodiesel production from algea. I heard that large farms must be needed to product yeald. May be its not true.. but i could not find a good internet address about this production style.

 
 
On 11/24/05, john owens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 
 
What I would like to know is why these big biodiesel companys in europe that are sabose to be ahead in the biodiesel industry haven't
started using algae to produce biodiesel.  
 
This is taken from wikipedia biodiesel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
The production of algae to harvest oil for biodiesel has not been undertaken on a commercial scale, but working feasibility studies have been conducted to arrive at the above yield estimate. In addition to a high yield, this solution does not compete with agriculture for food, requiring neither farmland nor fresh water. 

 
john___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel --> in France

[Frantz DESPREZ]

john owens a écrit :

> What I would like to know is why these big biodiesel companys in 
> europe that are sabose to be ahead in the biodiesel industry haven't
> started using algae to produce biodiesel.
> This is taken from wikipedia biodiesel 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
> /The production of algae to harvest oil for biodiesel has not been 
> undertaken on a commercial scale, but working feasibility studies have 
> been conducted to arrive at the above yield estimate. In addition to a 
> high yield, this solution does not compete with agriculture for food, 
> requiring neither farmland nor fresh water. /

Maybe because they're linked to indutrial farming ?
France is the EU country with the longest seashore. I heard about only 
one project of methanisation of algaes from the "green tides" (nitrates 
and phosphorus pollution of coastal waters around Britanny that make 
amazing and smelly accumulation of green algae every summer)

In France for exemple, the government biofuel plan is based only on 
actual sugar beetroot industry (in North-East France) or petrol 
raffineries and big colza farming.
While this, the same government gave instructions to catch and convict 
drivers who are using SVO in their diesel car. Cynically because it 
makes 15 € less tax per average tank fill for State (and one car out of 
2 is diesel powered in France), don't care if it's good for Kyoto 
targets or national commercial balance.
Farmers are the only tolerated users if selfconsumption. In facts 
Biofuels or anything used as a fuel cannot be sold without paying the 
TIPP (Domestic tax on oil products), excepted if made by big companies, 
dued to EU rules.

have a look on the European Energy Crops Internetwork site : 
http://www.eeci.net/
i.e :
http://www.eeci.net/archive/biobase/B10650.html
http://www.eeci.net/archive/biobase/B10649.html

about TIPP tax :
europa.eu.int/comm/taxation_customs/resources/documents/fuels_*france*_en.pdf

frantz
outlaw with my old french fries smelling car.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[john owens]

 
 
What I would like to know is why these big biodiesel companys in europe that are sabose to be ahead in the biodiesel industry haven't
started using algae to produce biodiesel.  
 
This is taken from wikipedia biodiesel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel
The production of algae to harvest oil for biodiesel has not been undertaken on a commercial scale, but working feasibility studies have been conducted to arrive at the above yield estimate. In addition to a high yield, this solution does not compete with agriculture for food, requiring neither farmland nor fresh water.

 
john
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[John Hayes]

Sten Armstrong wrote:
> and other bad news: Forests paying the price for biofuels
> 
>  
> 
> * 22 November 2005 * NewScientist.com news service * Fred Pearce
> 
> THE drive for "green energy" in the developed world is having the
> perverse effect of encouraging the destruction of tropical
> rainforests. From the orang-utan reserves of Borneo to the Brazilian
> Amazon, virgin forest is being razed to grow palm oil and soybeans to
> fuel cars and power stations in Europe and North America. And surging
> prices are likely to accelerate the destruction
> 
> The rush to make energy from vegetable oils is being driven in part
> by European Union laws requiring conventional fuels to be blended
> with biofuels, and by subsidies equivalent to 20 pence a litre. Last
> week, the British government announced a target for biofuels to make
> up 5 per cent of transport fuels by 2010. The aim is to help meet
> Kyoto protocol targets for reducing greenhouse-gas emissions.
> 
> Rising demand for green energy has led to a surge in the
> international price of palm oil, with potentially damaging
> consequences. "The expansion of palm oil production is one of the
> leading causes of rainforest destruction in south-east Asia. It is
> one of the most environmentally damaging commodities on the planet,"
> says Simon Counsell, director of the UK-based Rainforest Foundation.
> "Once again it appears we are trying to solve our environmental 
> problems by dumping them in developing countries, where they have 
> devastating effects on local people."
> 
> The main alternative to palm oil is soybean oil. But soya is the
> largest single cause of rainforest destruction in the Brazilian
> Amazon. Supporters of biofuels argue that they can be "carbon
> neutral" because the CO2 released from burning them is taken up again
> by the next crop. Interest is greatest for diesel engines, which can
> run unmodified on vegetable oil, and in Germany bio-diesel production
> has doubled since 2003. There are also plans for burning palm oil in
> power stations.
> 
> Until recently, Europe's small market in biofuels was dominated by 
> home-grown rapeseed (canola) oil. But surging demand from the food
> market has raised the price of rapeseed oil too. This has led fuel
> manufacturers to opt for palm and soya oil instead. Palm oil prices
> jumped 10 per cent in September alone, and are predicted to rise 2! 0
> per cent next year, while global demand for biofuels is now rising at
> 25 per cent a year.
> 
> Roger Higman, of Friends of the Earth UK, which backs biofuels, says:
> "We need to ensure that the crops used to make the fuel have been
> grown in a sustainable way or we will have rainforests cleared for
> palm oil plantations to make bio-diesel."

Very interesting. Compare the story you forwarded to this one:

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200511\NAT20051122a.html

Specifically, take note of this part:

> "I am glad that Friends of the Earth is finally recognizing the
> environmental threat of expanding bio-fuels. That may be the first
> time that I have ever heard the greens give bio-fuels the scrutiny it
> deserves," said Dennis Avery of the Hudson Institute's Center for
> Global Food Issues. Avery described his group as being "concerned
> about feeding as many possible people from as little land as possible
> in order to save more room for nature.
> 
> "Good farmland is the scarcest resource on this planet and we are
> already farming 37 percent of Earth's land area to get today's food
> supply," Avery told Cybercast News Service.
> 
> Avery slammed world governments for attempting to increase mandates
> for bio-fuel as an alternative to petroleum.
> 
> "Now, suddenly governments are saying, 'Oh we should have lots of
> bio-fuel so that we don't have to get oil out of the ground,' but we
> would have to clear 16 million square miles of forest on the planet
> if we wanted to make any dent in the demand for petroleum," Avery
> said.
> 
> He added that the green movement and world governments need to wake
> up to the fact that bio-fuels are not a viable energy alternative.

Now consider who the Hudson Institute is.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Hudson_Institute

While I agree that biofuels need to be done sustainably in the long term 
(as does virtually everyone on this list I'd guess), but this series of 
articles smells like astroturfing to me.

jh

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hello Jim

See below...

>I saw an article in the Trader's Dispatch ( an agricultural paper
>printed in Valier Montana) that made me wonder who will win the race.
>First some background:
>The paper showed a vendor of one of these super duper biodiesel
>"automatic generators" showing a crowd that included the State Governor
>how fast and simple it is to make Biodiesel.  Some rancher friends said
>he gave the Governor a gallon of Biodiesel.  As I understand it this guy
>started with some WVO and in about 3 hours presented the Gov with a
>gallon of the good stuff. ( according to a friend of mine who goaded me
>about taking so long to produce my Bio) Anyway I explained that Good Bio
>needs some time to do right or else it is not worth putting in the
>tank.  So, now I see these "fleecers" selling these new wonder super
>dupers and spreading their form of the gospel about Biodiesel while they
>sell these to the uninitiated public for 5-10K a pop.
>
>Now on the other hand we have the people that care about Biodiesel and
>what it takes to produce quality fuel-getting the word of truth out
>about the fuel.
>
>I now go back to my question, who will win the race to get the message out?
>
>Why does this seem so like the Current U.S. Administration vs the
>public? or do am I just to cynical?
>
>Jim


http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch
How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take?

Two very frequently asked questions.

Frequently given answers: "Not enough" and "Too much."

Are they the right answers?

Seeking to bridge the seemingly unbridgeable gap, there's widespread 
fascination with high-yielding oil crops, particularly oil-bearing 
algae, with oil palms running second.

It seems obvious that the highest-yielding crops will produce the 
most energy from the least amount of land.

But high yield is not the only factor in farming, and it may not 
always be the most important factor. It can make more sense for a 
farmer to grow a lower-yielding crop if it has more useful 
by-products or requires fewer inputs or less labour or it fixes more 
soil nitrogen for fertiliser or it fits a crop rotation better. Or if 
it fits an integrated on-farm biofuels production system better. The 
how-much-land estimates don't seem to include such things as 
integrated on-farm biofuels production systems. There are quite a lot 
of things they don't include.


Sustainable farming

Biofuels crops have to be grown, and there's a lot of common ground 
between growing sustainable fuel and growing food sustainably.

Large-scale industrialised farms claim to be the most efficient. They 
concentrate on growing high-yielding monocrops (only one crop) by 
mass-production methods with a lot of inputs, and they use a lot of 
fossil-fuel to do it.

A sustainable mixed farm can produce all its own fuel, with much or 
possibly all of it coming from crop by-products and waste products 
without any dedicated land use, and with very low input levels.

That sheds a different light on how much land is needed to grow 
"enough" biofuels: less land with sustainable farming, which also has 
much lower fossil-fuels inputs. Sustainable farming is the 
fastest-growing agricultural sector in many countries, millions of 
farmers worldwide are turning to sustainable methods.

Although sustainable farms require fewer inputs than "conventional" 
(factory-style) farms, yields and production are not lower. See for 
instance this message to the Biofuel mailing list from a large-scale 
organic farmer in the US, one of many:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg12485.html

See: Small farms
http://journeytoforever.org/farm.html

The case for organics -- Scientific studies and reports
http://journeytoforever.org/garden_organiccase.html


City farming

Looking at it from a different angle, according to the UN Food and 
Agriculture Organisation more than 15% of the world's food supply was 
produced by city farms in 1993. That was enough food for 900 million 
people, produced with few inputs other than urban wastes, and with 
the use of no farming land at all.

City farming is sweeping the world, in the industrialised countries 
as well as 3rd World countries. Many cities would have difficulty 
handling their wastes without the urban farms recycling them as 
livestock feed, compost and fertiliser.

Such an approach suits localised biofuels production very well, and 
it integrates well with city farming. For example, only about 10% of 
the waste vegetable oil (WVO) produced in the industrialised 
countries is collected, billions of gallons a year aren't collected. 
Apart from the waste oil produced by restaurants and food outlets and 
food processors, an estimated 1.5 million US gallons of grease and 
oil goes into the sewage system every year for every one million 
people in some US metropolitan areas. Extended nation-wide that's 
hundreds of millions of gallons wasted every year. US restaurants 
produce about 300 million US gallons

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Sten Armstrong]

and other bad news:  Forests paying the price for biofuelshttp://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18825265.400&feedId=online-news_rss20 * 22 November 2005 * NewScientist.com news service * Fred PearceTHE drive for "green energy" in the developed world is having the perverseeffect of encouraging the destruction of tropical rainforests. From theorang-utan reserves of Borneo to the Brazilian Amazon, virgin forest isbeing razed to grow palm oil and soybeans to fuel cars and power
 stations inEurope and North America. And surging prices are likely to accelerate thedestructionThe rush to make energy from vegetable oils is being driven in part byEuropean Union laws requiring conventional fuels to be blended withbiofuels, and by subsidies equivalent to 20 pence a litre. Last week, theBritish government announced a target for biofuels to make up 5 per cent oftransport fuels by 2010. The aim is to help meet Kyoto protocol targets forreducing greenhouse-gas emissions.Rising demand for green energy has led to a surge in the international priceof palm oil, with potentially damaging consequences. "The expansion of palmoil production is one of the leading causes of rainforest destruction insouth-east Asia. It is one of the most environmentally damaging commoditieson the planet," says Simon Counsell, director of the UK-based RainforestFoundation. "Once again it appears we are trying to solve our
 environmentalproblems by dumping them in developing countries, where they havedevastating effects on local people."The main alternative to palm oil is soybean oil. But soya is the largestsingle cause of rainforest destruction in the Brazilian Amazon. Supportersof biofuels argue that they can be "carbon neutral" because the CO2 releasedfrom burning them is taken up again by the next crop. Interest is greatestfor diesel engines, which can run unmodified on vegetable oil, and inGermany bio-diesel production has doubled since 2003. There are also plansfor burning palm oil in power stations.Until recently, Europe's small market in biofuels was dominated byhome-grown rapeseed (canola) oil. But surging demand from the food markethas raised the price of rapeseed oil too. This has led fuel manufacturers toopt for palm and soya oil instead. Palm oil prices jumped 10 per cent inSeptember alone, and are predicted to rise 20 per
 cent next year, whileglobal demand for biofuels is now rising at 25 per cent a year.Roger Higman, of Friends of the Earth UK, which backs biofuels, says: "Weneed to ensure that the crops used to make the fuel have been grown in asustainable way or we will have rainforests cleared for palm oil plantationsto make bio-diesel."JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  I saw an article in the Trader's Dispatch ( an agricultural paper printed in Valier Montana) that made me wonder who will win the race. First some background:The paper showed a vendor of one of these super duper biodiesel "automatic generators" showing a crowd that included the State Governor how fast and simple it is to make Biodiesel. Some rancher friends said he gave the Governor a gallon of Biodiesel. As I understand it this guy
 started with some WVO and in about 3 hours presented the Gov with a gallon of the good stuff. ( according to a friend of mine who goaded me about taking so long to produce my Bio) Anyway I explained that Good Bio needs some time to do right or else it is not worth putting in the tank. So, now I see these "fleecers" selling these new wonder super dupers and spreading their form of the gospel about Biodiesel while they sell these to the uninitiated public for 5-10K a pop.Now on the other hand we have the people that care about Biodiesel and what it takes to produce quality fuel-getting the word of truth out about the fuel.I now go back to my question, who will win the race to get the message out?Why does this seem so like the Current U.S. Administration vs the public? or do am I just to cynical?Jim___Biofuel mailing
 listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[Evergreen Solutions]

Unless I completely misunderstand some things, it should be very
possible to get a good complete reaction in around 3 hrs. Using
sulfuric, centrifuges, and mostly clean or pre-titrated wvo.

Now, a better question in my mind is this:
Who is going to make the bigger splash: those people inviting
individuals to provide their own energy resource, small level
entrepreneurs operating in a new and ever exanding niche market, or
giant megaconglomerates with $250,000 injections of cash at a whim to
create large processors.

And a better question...
What can we all do to keep it from being the last one? One of my
favorite aspects of alternative, more eco-friendly energy creation is
the availability of individuals to be self sufficient, taking the power
OUT of the hands of large corporations most concerned with their bottom
line.


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] The bad news about Biodiesel

[JJJN]

I saw an article in the Trader's Dispatch ( an agricultural paper 
printed in Valier Montana) that made me wonder who will win the race.  
First some background:
The paper showed a vendor of one of these super duper biodiesel 
"automatic generators" showing a crowd that included the State Governor 
how fast and simple it is to make Biodiesel.  Some rancher friends said 
he gave the Governor a gallon of Biodiesel.  As I understand it this guy 
started with some WVO and in about 3 hours presented the Gov with a 
gallon of the good stuff. ( according to a friend of mine who goaded me 
about taking so long to produce my Bio) Anyway I explained that Good Bio 
needs some time to do right or else it is not worth putting in the 
tank.  So, now I see these "fleecers" selling these new wonder super 
dupers and spreading their form of the gospel about Biodiesel while they 
sell these to the uninitiated public for 5-10K a pop.

Now on the other hand we have the people that care about Biodiesel and 
what it takes to produce quality fuel-getting the word of truth out 
about the fuel.

I now go back to my question, who will win the race to get the message out?

Why does this seem so like the Current U.S. Administration vs the 
public? or do am I just to cynical?

Jim

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/