[Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
Kieth wrote "...too much abuse, and not only of the list." I was kicked off a Yahoo! Group today: RefrigeratorAlternatives Maybe it was me. However, some shared my opinion that there were too much hostilities toward fellow members. Unlike this group, I found that going a little off topic earned you a nasty-gram from the moderator (who referred to it as "my group"). Since your getting the story from only one side, I'll stop there. I've been a part of this list for a while so you have some experience about my opinions, my attitude and my writing style. Of course I've made mistakes, used strong language and debated aggressively. However, I don't think the moderator of RefrigeratorAlternatives truly has the interest of the group in mind. I'm very disappointed. It looked like a great topic for an on-line discussion. Is there anyone else who had a similar experience? Mike Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Mike.>Kieth,>>Earlier, you mentioned how companies like Monsanto try to infiltrate >groups like ours. In addition I'm sure that there are many >emotionally driven and misguided individuals like Tim who are acting >on their own.Yes, an endless trickle, Chinese water torture, LOL!Sorry, I know it's not funny, I am sympathetic. "Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences," said Robert Louis Stevenson, and I don't envy some of these people the feast that awaits them. But it's not a workable sympathy, too much abuse, and not only of the list. It's the garbageman people take to abusing when the garbage happens to be them, and that's me, LOL! But if you don't like bouncers then shape up and learn how to behave. Quite often it works out that way too, I'm happy to say. Otherwise it's just a job, it's not a matter of personalities, which I've said before, and it's true, but these people will never believe that. What they want to believe is their problem.When I told Tim I wouldn't let him lead the list in another crazed circular argument like he'd done before, he answered: "Oh, so is this about list leadership?" Huh? Another guy who got abusive in this thread told me I'm a control freak.On the contrary, when we moved the list from Yahoo last year it was less control I was after. Much of our thinking was in helping the list to be a self-moderating community, which it kept trying to be but it kept getting shot down because one or two simply had the wrong attitude - regardless of their views, they didn't think of communities, they thought of themselves. I posted a few messages about this at the time. "The second Welcome message sent onlist is from the administrators - rules, of a sort. The gist of it is that the list is an online community, for sharing and mutual benefit, not a shop where you can be demanding and the customer's always right. Once you realize that it's all fairly obvious. If you come to a mailing list via Yahoo though you might be more inclined to see it as a shop - the wrong expectations, and another reason for leaving there."It worked well, it's much more a self-moderating community now.>In the past, I've mentioned (rhetorically) that we have strength in >solidarity. The fact that we can debate about the details but stay >unanimous about almost everything elseThere are so many different kinds of people here, from different backgrounds, different places, different cultures. It's great! Solidarity in diversity.>shows extraordinary strength and fidelity for this type of forum and >I think we stand a better chance than most in defending ourselves >and this group from such kinds of sabotage.I'm glad other list members think that too, so do I, but on the other hand I don't want to be overconfident. The fakes at Bivings did a lot of harm, they're not dumb.>The Margolis article below is a great example of how this list is an >extremely important conduit for getting the truth out to potentially >millions of people. Many in this group have contributed in big ways >and others are inspired to do the same.>>You have earned many titles Kieth.Yes! Though you wouldn't want to hang all of them on your wall.>One which I feel you've earned many times over is that of activist. >Through this group and your work with JTF, you have directly >effected the lives of thousands of people (myself included).>>...for what it's worth.It's worth a lot to me Mike, many thanks.RegardsKeith>Mike>___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
James G. Branaum writes: Gosh Mike, You seem to have made yet another weak assumption or intentionally taken the low road when the presented facts you swear by indicated other courses would have been more proper. The only misstatement in my comments was the convicted part which should have read morally convicted. My comments about idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us were all inclusive as written and intended. Had I said "among you", your remarks might have been on target. I purposefully left any judgments to be made in the mind of the reader rather than directing or attempting to control thought. You are more than welcome to disagree all you wish I believe you're trolling. If so, stop it. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
Mike, In essence, what you are saying, is that Keith is among the best moderators out there. It might be explained by that he after all is professional, but it is also a skill in dealing with people. So, if you want this as a topic, it will be a well deserved "love song" to Keith. It would not be the first time. Hakan At 09:44 PM 7/16/2005, you wrote: Kieth wrote "...too much abuse, and not only of the list." I was kicked off a Yahoo! Group today: RefrigeratorAlternatives Maybe it was me. However, some shared my opinion that there were too much hostilities toward fellow members. Unlike this group, I found that going a little off topic earned you a nasty-gram from the moderator (who referred to it as "my group"). Since your getting the story from only one side, I'll stop there. I've been a part of this list for a while so you have some experience about my opinions, my attitude and my writing style. Of course I've made mistakes, used strong language and debated aggressively. However, I don't think the moderator of RefrigeratorAlternatives truly has the interest of the group in mind. I'm very disappointed. It looked like a great topic for an on-line discussion. Is there anyone else who had a similar experience? Mike Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Mike. >Kieth, > >Earlier, you mentioned how companies like Monsanto try to infiltrate >groups like ours. In addition I'm sure that there are many >emotionally driven and misguided individuals like Tim who are acting >on their own. Yes, an endless trickle, Chinese water torture, LOL! Sorry, I know it's not funny, I am sympathetic. "Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences," said Robert Louis Stevenson, and I don't envy some of these people the feast that awaits them. But it's not a workable sympathy, too much abuse, and not only of the list. It's the garbageman people take to abusing when the garbage happens to be them, and that's me, LOL! But if you don't like bouncers then shape up and learn how to behave. Quite often it works out that way! too, I'm happy to say. Otherwise it's just a job, it's not a matter of personalities, which I've said before, and it's true, but these people will never believe that. What they want to believe is their problem. When I told Tim I wouldn't let him lead the list in another crazed circular argument like he'd done before, he answered: "Oh, so is this about list leadership?" Huh? Another guy who got abusive in this thread told me I'm a control freak. On the contrary, when we moved the list from Yahoo last year it was less control I was after. Much of our thinking was in helping the list to be a self-moderating community, which it kept trying to be but it kept getting shot down because one or two simply had the wrong attitude - regardless of their views, they didn't think of communities, they thought of themselves. I posted a few messages about this at the time. "The second Welcome message sent onlist is from the administrat! ors - rules, of a sort. The gist of it is that the list is an online community, for sharing and mutual benefit, not a shop where you can be demanding and the customer's always right. Once you realize that it's all fairly obvious. If you come to a mailing list via Yahoo though you might be more inclined to see it as a shop - the wrong expectations, and another reason for leaving there." It worked well, it's much more a self-moderating community now. >In the past, I've mentioned (rhetorically) that we have strength in >solidarity. The fact that we can debate about the details but stay >unanimous about almost everything else There are so many different kinds of people here, from different backgrounds, different places, different cultures. It's great! Solidarity in diversity. >shows extraordinary strength and fidelity for this type of forum and >I think we stand a better chance than most in defendi! ng ourselves >and this group from such kinds of sabotage. I'm glad other list members think that too, so do I, but on the other hand I don't want to be overconfident. The fakes at Bivings did a lot of harm, they're not dumb. >The Margolis article below is a great example of how this list is an >extremely important conduit for getting the truth out to potentially >millions of people. Many in this group have contributed in big ways >and others are inspired to do the same. > >You have earned many titles Kieth. Yes! Though you wouldn't want to hang all of them on your wall. >One which I feel you've earned many times over is that of activist. >Through this group and your work with JTF, you have directly >effected the lives of thousands of people (myself included). > >...for what it's worth. It's worth a lot to me Mike, many thanks. Regards Keith >Mike > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelist
Re: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
Hakan, I don't disagree with your comments about Kieth. After all, his background in journalism and his understanding of what the "free press" really means, helps keep the group's objectivity. Kieth: were talkin' about ya -- hope you don't mind :-) My biggest concern is what to do about a moderator who does not understand the responsibility associated with authority and becomes zealous with power for his/her own personal gratification -- authority for it's own sake. We could be talking about a group of thousands who eventually decide to tolerate abusive behavior because it is outweighed by the information gained. I would think that many in this list take issue with that -- especially having discussed our political climate. I've personally seen (off-line, in-person) clubs and associations who have adopted this behavior and they give me the creeps. I'm not a sociologist or mental health professional, but I draw parallels between this kind of small scale, group behavior and cults or even dictatorships. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. I just find it difficult to actively resist abuse of power off-line and tolerate it on-line. Mike Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike,In essence, what you are saying, is that Keith is among the best moderators out there. It might be explained by that he after all is professional, but it is also a skill in dealing with people. So, if you want this as a topic, it will be a well deserved "love song" to Keith. It would not be the first time.HakanAt 09:44 PM 7/16/2005, you wrote:>Kieth wrote "...too much abuse, and not only of the list.">>I was kicked off a Yahoo! Group today: RefrigeratorAlternatives>>Maybe it was me. However, some shared my opinion that there were too much >hostilities toward fellow members. Unlike this group, I found that going a >little off topic earned you a nasty-gram from the moderator (who referred >to it as "my group"). Since your getting the story from only one side, >I'll stop there.>>I've been a part of this list for a while so you have some experience >about my opinions, my attitude and my writing style. Of course I've made >mistakes, used strong language and debated aggressively. However, I don't >think the moderator of RefrigeratorAlternatives truly has the interest of >the group in mind.>>I'm very disappointed. It looked like a great topic for an on-line discussion.>>Is there anyone else who had a similar experience?>>Mike>>Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>Thanks for the encouragement, Mike.>> >Kieth,> >> >Earlier, you mentioned how companies like Monsanto try to infiltrate> >groups like ours. In addition I'm sure that there are many> >emotionally driven and misguided individuals like Tim who are acting> >on their own.>>Yes, an endless trickle, Chinese water torture, LOL!>>Sorry, I know it's not funny, I am sympathetic. "Everybody, soon or>late, sits down to a banquet of consequences," said Robert Louis>Stevenson, and I don't envy some of these people the feast that>awaits them. But it's not a workable sympathy, too much abuse, and>not only of the list. It's the garbageman people take to abusing when>the garbage happens to be them, and that's me, LOL! But if you don't>like bouncers then shape up and learn how to behave. Quite often it>works out that way! too, I'm happy to say. Otherwise it's just a job,>it's not a matter of personalities, which I've said before, and it's>true, but these people will never believe that. What they want to>believe is their problem.>>When I told Tim I wouldn't let him lead the list in another crazed>circular argument like he'd done before, he answered: "Oh, so is this>about list leadership?" Huh? Another guy who got abusive in this>thread told me I'm a control freak.>>On the contrary, when we moved the list from Yahoo last year it was>less control I was after. Much of our thinking was in helping the>list to be a self-moderating community, which it kept trying to be>but it kept getting shot down because one or two simply had the wrong>attitude - regardless of their views, they didn't think of>communities, they thought of themselves. I posted a few messages>about this at the time. "The second Welcome message sent onlist is>from the administrat! ors - rules, of a sort. The gist of it is that>the list is an online community, for sharing and mutual benefit, not>a shop where you can be demanding and the customer's always right.>Once you realize that it's all fairly obvious. If you come to a>mailing list via Yahoo though you might be more inclined to see it as>a shop - the wrong expectations, and another reason for leaving>there.">>It worked well, it's much more a self-moderating community now.>> >In the past, I've mentioned (rhetorically) that we have strength in> >solidarity. The fact that we can debate about the details but stay> >unanimous about almost everything else>>There are so many different kinds of people here, from different>backgrounds, different places, different cultures. It's
Re: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
Hello Mike, Hakan Hakan, I don't disagree with your comments about Kieth. After all, his background in journalism and his understanding of what the "free press" really means, helps keep the group's objectivity. Kieth: were talkin' about ya -- hope you don't mind :-) You and Hakan are being very kind, but you're making me blush! Bit too much limelight for me recently I think. Other than just being a list member, in matters of management may I fade back into the background now and merge with the wallpaper again? Management is like design or editing, at its best it's effectively invisible, and so should I be too, IMHO. My biggest concern is what to do about a moderator who does not understand the responsibility associated with authority and becomes zealous with power for his/her own personal gratification -- authority for it's own sake. We could be talking about a group of thousands who eventually decide to tolerate abusive behavior because it is outweighed by the information gained. Not only that, there's no way of fighting it except voting with your feet. You can't fight a moderator, they have too much control, which is necessary, but when they use it irresponsibly for their own ends everybody loses. There's no good answer to this, yet. The controls are necessary. Democracy's all very noble, but it doesn't happen much on the Internet. Well, it does, it's the main thing that happens, but in a discussion group it only takes one person to wreck it. It's easy to destroy things, it doesn't take any talent. A well-known and widely published commentator on Internet community issues has said she does not know of any mailing list communities that are democratically run. That statement can raise a lot of argument, but it's pretty much true. What you tend to get instead is either a list without much focus or direction, or a free-for-all where the lowest common denominator rules. By that commentator's criteria those aren't really "communities" in the first place. I referred recently to this previous post by Jai Haissman: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30705.html He comments on a statement by a strangely disconnected person, which I'd also commented on: I know if there were no consequences to my actions, I would certainly act differently. We have a christmas party at work every year. I COULD get drunk, punch out my boss and take a leak in the punch bowl. Realistically, there would be no legal consequences (my boss is not the kind of guy to call the cops for something stupid like that). But I didn't do it. Why not? Because there would have been consequences. My coworkers would not have liked me anymore, life at work would have been much more difficult. It would have been socially unacceptable. "The premise here is that without consequences, we are basically opportunists, and will seek our advantage without a care," Jai commented, and termed it sociopathic behaviour. These quotes are pertinent: "The measure of a person's real character is what they would do if they knew they would never be found out." - Thomas B. Macauley "The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught." - H. L. Mencken The trouble is that for the merely moral, let alone the immoral, there's a lack of consequences on the Internet. The proportion of sociopathic behaviour on the Internet is higher than in a real-world community. Real communities figured this out long ago, the consequences are real, detailed and applied. But for some people, logging in to the Internet brings on a kind of character-change similar to what happens to others when they get in their cars (or are they the same people?). Their inhibitions are external, as soon as the external pressure is removed, out comes the malcontent. The role of moderators is to control this problem, not to be the problem. A corrupt policeman or a corrupt judge is a similar sort of problem. The Internet is still a little baby compared with what it will become. I'm confident that these problems will be worked out in time, but it will take time, they're complex issues. A while back somebody commented on one of the lists that there's no way in the world a moderator will not become personally involved and their own personal interests will not be a factor in the way they run the group. Somebody else confirmed this, citing his own experiences running bulletin boards in the old days. I said it was nonsense, journalists all over the world do it all the time without a thought. You get rightwingers and leftwingers working on the same papers and whatever their own opinions might be they certainly don't joust with the editorial policy every time they write a story. It's especially true of the editors, you do your job, that's all. You get furious newsroom arguments, but they seldom involve peopl
RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
ROFLOL! Mike, It always is, has been, and will into the far distant future be a function of how things are said rather than what is said. However, do not take that to the extreme or you fall into the how rather than what trap again. Extremes, like generalities, can be proven to be false gods followed by many with unwavering false standards. Keep trying. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 3:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid "That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance." Does this mean that it's a matter of how I say it rather than what's being said? If I'm not getting it, can you elaborate? Mike "James G. Branaum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike, Your style can be offensive, but so what? I also have been kicked off a list because the moderator and I crossed swords. It took 8 years, but he has since recanted his position and admitted I was right. Before you get the idea I have a swelled head remember that being right does no good if one is dead right. My mind is open to the idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us because even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance. Jim Branaum -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:45 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid Kieth wrote "...too much abuse, and not only of the list." I was kicked off a Yahoo! Group today: RefrigeratorAlternatives Maybe it was me. However, some shared my opinion that there were too much hostilities toward fellow members. Unlike this group, I found that going a little off topic earned you a nasty-gram from the moderator (who referred to it as "my group"). Since your getting the story from only one side, I'll stop there. I've been a part of this list for a while so you have some experience about my opinions, my attitude and my writing style. Of course I've made mistakes, used strong language and debated aggressively. However, I don't think the moderator of RefrigeratorAlternatives truly has the interest of the group in mind. I'm very disappointed. It looked like a great topic for an on-line discussion. Is there anyone else who had a similar experience? Mike Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Mike. >Kieth, > >Earlier, you mentioned how companies like Monsanto try to infiltrate >groups like ours. In addition I'm sure that there are many >emotionally driven and misguided individuals like Tim who are acting >on their own. Yes, an endless trickle, Chinese water torture, LOL! Sorry, I know it's not funny, I am sympathetic. "Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences," said Robert Louis Stevenson, and I don't envy some of these people the feast that awaits them. But it's not a workable sympathy, too much abuse, and not only of the list. It's the garbageman people take to abusing when the garbage happens to be them, and that's me, LOL! But if you don't like bouncers then shape up and learn how to behave. Quite often it works out that way too, I'm happy to say. Otherwise it's just a job, it's not a matter of personalities, which I've said before, and it's true, but these people will never believe that. What they want to believe is their problem. When I told Tim I wouldn't let him lead the list in another crazed circular argument like he'd done before, he answered: "Oh, so is this about list leadership?" Huh? Another guy who got abusive in this thread told me I'm a control freak. On the contrary, when we moved the list from Yahoo last year it was less control I was after. Much of our thinking was in helping the list to be a self-moderating community, which it kept trying to be but it kept getting shot down because one or two simply had the wrong attitude - regardless of their views, they didn't think of communities, they thought of themselves. I posted a few messages about this at the time. "The second Welcome message sent onlist is from the administrators - rules, of a sort. The gist of it is that the list is an online community, for sharing and mutual benefit, not a shop where you can be demanding and the customer's always right. Once you realize that it's all fairly obvious. If you come
RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
"That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance." Does this mean that it's a matter of how I say it rather than what's being said? If I'm not getting it, can you elaborate? Mike "James G. Branaum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike, Your style can be offensive, but so what? I also have been kicked off a list because the moderator and I crossed swords. It took 8 years, but he has since recanted his position and admitted I was right. Before you get the idea I have a swelled head remember that being right does no good if one is dead right. My mind is open to the idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us because even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance. Jim Branaum -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael RedlerSent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:45 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid Kieth wrote "...too much abuse, and not only of the list." I was kicked off a Yahoo! Group today: RefrigeratorAlternatives Maybe it was me. However, some shared my opinion that there were too much hostilities toward fellow members. Unlike this group, I found that going a little off topic earned you a nasty-gram from the moderator (who referred to it as "my group"). Since your getting the story from only one side, I'll stop there. I've been a part of this list for a while so you have some experience about my opinions, my attitude and my writing style. Of course I've made mistakes, used strong language and debated aggressively. However, I don't think the moderator of RefrigeratorAlternatives truly has the interest of the group in mind. I'm very disappointed. It looked like a great topic for an on-line discussion. Is there anyone else who had a similar experience? Mike Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Mike.>Kieth,>>Earlier, you mentioned how companies like Monsanto try to infiltrate >groups like ours. In addition I'm sure that there are many >emotionally driven and misguided individuals like Tim who are acting >on their own.Yes, an endless trickle, Chinese water torture, LOL!Sorry, I know it's not funny, I am sympathetic. "Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences," said Robert Louis Stevenson, and I don't envy some of these people the feast that awaits them. But it's not a workable sympathy, too much abuse, and not only of the list. It's the garbageman people take to abusing when the garbage happens to be them, and that's me, LOL! But if you don't like bouncers then shape up and learn how to behave. Quite often it works out that way too, I'm happy to say. Otherwise it's just a job, it's not a matter of personalities, which I've said before, and it's true, but these people will never believe that. What they want to believe is their problem.When I told Tim I wouldn't let him lead the list in another crazed circular argument like he'd done before, he answered: "Oh, so is this about list leadership?" Huh? Another guy who got abusive in this thread told me I'm a control freak.On the contrary, when we moved the list from Yahoo last year it was less control I was after. Much of our thinking was in helping the list to be a self-moderating community, which it kept trying to be but it kept getting shot down because one or two simply had the wrong attitude - regardless of their views, they didn't think of communities, they thought of themselves. I posted a few messages about this at the time. "The second Welcome message sent onlist is from the administrators - rules, of a sort. The gist of it is that the list is an online community, for sharing and mutual benefit, not a shop where you can be demanding and the customer's always right. Once you realize that it's all fairly obvious. If you come to a mailing list via Yahoo though you might be more inclined to see it as a shop - the wrong expectations, and another reason for leaving there."It worked well, it's much more a self-moderating community now.>In the past, I've mentioned (rhetorically) that we have strength in >solidarity. The fact that we can debate about the details but stay >unanimous about almost everything elseThere are so many different kinds of people here, from different backgrounds, different places, different cultures. It's great! Solidarity in diversity.>shows extraordinary strength and fidelity for this type of forum and >I think we stand a better chance than most in defending ourselves >and this group from such kinds of sabot
RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
Mike, Your style can be offensive, but so what? I also have been kicked off a list because the moderator and I crossed swords. It took 8 years, but he has since recanted his position and admitted I was right. Before you get the idea I have a swelled head remember that being right does no good if one is dead right. My mind is open to the idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us because even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance. Jim Branaum -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:45 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid Kieth wrote "...too much abuse, and not only of the list." I was kicked off a Yahoo! Group today: RefrigeratorAlternatives Maybe it was me. However, some shared my opinion that there were too much hostilities toward fellow members. Unlike this group, I found that going a little off topic earned you a nasty-gram from the moderator (who referred to it as "my group"). Since your getting the story from only one side, I'll stop there. I've been a part of this list for a while so you have some experience about my opinions, my attitude and my writing style. Of course I've made mistakes, used strong language and debated aggressively. However, I don't think the moderator of RefrigeratorAlternatives truly has the interest of the group in mind. I'm very disappointed. It looked like a great topic for an on-line discussion. Is there anyone else who had a similar experience? Mike Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Mike. >Kieth, > >Earlier, you mentioned how companies like Monsanto try to infiltrate >groups like ours. In addition I'm sure that there are many >emotionally driven and misguided individuals like Tim who are acting >on their own. Yes, an endless trickle, Chinese water torture, LOL! Sorry, I know it's not funny, I am sympathetic. "Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences," said Robert Louis Stevenson, and I don't envy some of these people the feast that awaits them. But it's not a workable sympathy, too much abuse, and not only of the list. It's the garbageman people take to abusing when the garbage happens to be them, and that's me, LOL! But if you don't like bouncers then shape up and learn how to behave. Quite often it works out that way too, I'm happy to say. Otherwise it's just a job, it's not a matter of personalities, which I've said before, and it's true, but these people will never believe that. What they want to believe is their problem. When I told Tim I wouldn't let him lead the list in another crazed circular argument like he'd done before, he answered: "Oh, so is this about list leadership?" Huh? Another guy who got abusive in this thread told me I'm a control freak. On the contrary, when we moved the list from Yahoo last year it was less control I was after. Much of our thinking was in helping the list to be a self-moderating community, which it kept trying to be but it kept getting shot down because one or two simply had the wrong attitude - regardless of their views, they didn't think of communities, they thought of themselves. I posted a few messages about this at the time. "The second Welcome message sent onlist is from the administrators - rules, of a sort. The gist of it is that the list is an online community, for sharing and mutual benefit, not a shop where you can be demanding and the customer's always right. Once you realize that it's all fairly obvious. If you come to a mailing list via Yahoo though you might be more inclined to see it as a shop - the wrong expectations, and another reason for leaving there." It worked well, it's much more a self-moderating community now. >In the past, I've mentioned (rhetorically) that we have strength in >solidarity. The fact that we can debate about the details but stay >unanimous about almost everything else There are so many different kinds of people here, from different backgrounds, different places, different cultures. It's great! Solidarity in diversity. >shows extraordinary strength and fidelity for this type of forum and >I think we stand a better chance than most in defending ourselves >and this group from such kinds of sabotage. I'm glad other list members think that too, so do I, but on the other hand I don't want to be overconfident. The fakes at Bivings did a lot of harm, they're not dumb. >
RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
...duly noted James. I'm just wondering... "My mind is open to the idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us because even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while." - If your predisposed to judging others (as idiots, etc.), how can you keep an open mind? I would (for example) consider the opinions of others, irrespective of their criminal record or mental health. "It always is, has been, and will into the far distant future be a function of how things are said rather than what is said." - Without meaning to be sarcastic, I have no idea what "It" is and how "It" is a function of how things are said. I do know that I'm a big fan of facts. So, we can agree to disagree. I will endeavor to improve on my offensive style (or at least measure how much I dispose of it). Mike "James G. Branaum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ROFLOL! Mike, It always is, has been, and will into the far distant future be a function of how things are said rather than what is said. However, do not take that to the extreme or you fall into the how rather than what trap again. Extremes, like generalities, can be proven to be false gods followed by many with unwavering false standards. Keep trying. Jim -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael RedlerSent: Monday, July 18, 2005 3:07 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid "That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance." Does this mean that it's a matter of how I say it rather than what's being said? If I'm not getting it, can you elaborate? Mike "James G. Branaum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike, Your style can be offensive, but so what? I also have been kicked off a list because the moderator and I crossed swords. It took 8 years, but he has since recanted his position and admitted I was right. Before you get the idea I have a swelled head remember that being right does no good if one is dead right. My mind is open to the idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us because even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance. Jim Branaum -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael RedlerSent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:45 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid Kieth wrote "...too much abuse, and not only of the list." I was kicked off a Yahoo! Group today: RefrigeratorAlternatives Maybe it was me. However, some shared my opinion that there were too much hostilities toward fellow members. Unlike this group, I found that going a little off topic earned you a nasty-gram from the moderator (who referred to it as "my group"). Since your getting the story from only one side, I'll stop there. I've been a part of this list for a while so you have some experience about my opinions, my attitude and my writing style. Of course I've made mistakes, used strong language and debated aggressively. However, I don't think the moderator of RefrigeratorAlternatives truly has the interest of the group in mind. I'm very disappointed. It looked like a great topic for an on-line discussion. Is there anyone else who had a similar experience? Mike Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Mike.>Kieth,>>Earlier, you mentioned how companies like Monsanto try to infiltrate >groups like ours. In addition I'm sure that there are many >emotionally driven and misguided individuals like Tim who are acting >on their own.Yes, an endless trickle, Chinese water torture, LOL!Sorry, I know it's not funny, I am sympathetic. "Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences," said Robert Louis Stevenson, and I don't envy some of these people the feast that awaits them. But it's not a workable sympathy, too much abuse, and not only of the list. It's the garbageman people take to abusing when the garbage happens to be them, and that's me, LOL! But if you don't like bouncers then shape up and learn how to behave. Quite often it works out that way too, I'm happy to say. Otherwise it's just a job, it's not a matter of personalities, which I've said before, and it's true, but these people will never believe that. What they want to believe is their problem.When I told Tim I wouldn't let him lead the list in another crazed circular argument like he'd done before, he answered: "Oh, so is this about list leadership?" Huh? Another guy who got abusive in this thread told me I&#x
RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid
Gosh Mike, You seem to have made yet another weak assumption or intentionally taken the low road when the presented facts you swear by indicated other courses would have been more proper. The only misstatement in my comments was the convicted part which should have read morally convicted. My comments about idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us were all inclusive as written and intended. Had I said “among you”, your remarks might have been on target. I purposefully left any judgments to be made in the mind of the reader rather than directing or attempting to control thought. You are more than welcome to disagree all you wish -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:08 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid ...duly noted James. I'm just wondering... "My mind is open to the idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us because even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while." - If your predisposed to judging others (as idiots, etc.), how can you keep an open mind? I would (for example) consider the opinions of others, irrespective of their criminal record or mental health. "It always is, has been, and will into the far distant future be a function of how things are said rather than what is said." - Without meaning to be sarcastic, I have no idea what "It" is and how "It" is a function of how things are said. I do know that I'm a big fan of facts. So, we can agree to disagree. I will endeavor to improve on my offensive style (or at least measure how much I dispose of it). Mike "James G. Branaum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ROFLOL! Mike, It always is, has been, and will into the far distant future be a function of how things are said rather than what is said. However, do not take that to the extreme or you fall into the how rather than what trap again. Extremes, like generalities, can be proven to be false gods followed by many with unwavering false standards. Keep trying. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 3:07 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid "That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance." Does this mean that it's a matter of how I say it rather than what's being said? If I'm not getting it, can you elaborate? Mike "James G. Branaum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mike, Your style can be offensive, but so what? I also have been kicked off a list because the moderator and I crossed swords. It took 8 years, but he has since recanted his position and admitted I was right. Before you get the idea I have a swelled head remember that being right does no good if one is dead right. My mind is open to the idiots, fools, convicted, and crazies among us because even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. That means even you who I more often than not disagree with on magnitude rather than complete substance. Jim Branaum -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Redler Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 2:45 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Abuse [was] It's imperialism, stupid Kieth wrote "...too much abuse, and not only of the list." I was kicked off a Yahoo! Group today: RefrigeratorAlternatives Maybe it was me. However, some shared my opinion that there were too much hostilities toward fellow members. Unlike this group, I found that going a little off topic earned you a nasty-gram from the moderator (who referred to it as "my group"). Since your getting the story from only one side, I'll stop there. I've been a part of this list for a while so you have some experience about my opinions, my attitude and my writing style. Of course I've made mistakes, used strong language and debated aggressively. However, I don't think the moderator of RefrigeratorAlternatives truly has the interest of the group in mind. I'm very disappointed. It looked like a great topic for an on-line discussion. Is there anyone else who had a similar experience? Mike Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks for the encouragement, Mike. >Kieth, > >Earlier, you mentioned how companies like Monsanto try to infiltrate >groups like ours. In addition I'm sure that there are many >emotionally driven and misguided individuals
