Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
>And, as I say, this is only one view onto a system that displays the same detrimental convergences from any other viewpoint. Another viewpoint... There's a lot of discussion going on among locavores who're into blogging. >I am a member of a local food cooperative. They tell us that for every $100 spent locally (any locally owned business), $45 is retained in the local community. This is compared to spending the same amount of money at a national chain where only $13 stays in the community. There's a new term being bandied about, "glocavore": >The idea behind "glocavore" is that you'll buy locally everything that makes sense to buy locally -- in season, sustainably produced, etc. Then for anything that you can't or don't want to do without and can't produce locally, ... then you'll buy the most sustainably-produced products you can find from elsewhere. Another comment: >I read a piece advocating for a "glocavore" stance as opposed to a "locavore" one. In addition to supporting our local farmers and contributing to their sustainable care of local land, the writer made the case, which I strongly join, that we also have an obligation to our global community. We're a wealthy nation. We do good by supporting sustainable ventures around the world that maintain valuable ways of life or crafts or foods, not just ensuring the health of our own economies. > >I don't think everyone should eat only foods produced within 100 miles of home; I think we should support important regional products that we value, whether they're from our own region or elsewhere. That's similar to fair trade vs "free" trade. Re any locally owned business, people are extending it beyond food: >I like to buy local stuff mainly so I can support local people. (I have wondered how many of the local-food-only people make an effort to buy other stuff locally too.) Best Keith Very well put Dawie! Good analysis, nice read, thankyou. All best Keith >- Original Message >From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2008 4:20:02 PM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages > > The damage Big Box >>Stores do is both local and systemic. It's called "Big Box blight". > >Precisely. There are lots of interrelated factors, but here's an example of just one aspect of the systemic nature of the problem. Big Box Stores and suburbia support one another: > >When one travels by car it's much harder to notice small things by the side of the road than had one been walking. Small businesses with traditionally-sized frontages go by in a blur. It is necessary to capture the motorist's attention by large physical scale of both buildings and signage. > >When one travels by car one tends to avoid unscheduled stops. Even in moderate traffic it is an irritation to have to get out of the stream and back into it afterwards. One is moreover concerned about the safety of one's car while it is unattended. Hence the motorist will tend to favour "one-stop" facilities. > >Similarly, when one travels by car one is not at liberty to turn on one's heel, on impulse, to go and investigate something that has caught one's eye the way one can when one is on foot. The motorist will therefore tend to favour destinations whose offerings are already known, e.g. through advertising. > >Thus we see that the fact that most people are travelling by car gives a distinct advantage to enterprises capable of operating large buildings with elaborate signage, holding large stocks of a large variety of types of products, and constantly running effective advertising campaigns over humbler enterprises that cannot, an advantage that would have been marginal but for the influence of car travel. These enterprises obviously seek to increase and consolidate this advantage by promoting the conditions that give rise to the advantage, and so we find a sort of snowball effect. So, the adoption of a given transport scenario, itself a function of a spatial/settlement scenario, gives form to a type of economic system. In this case it is a system that concentrates all economic power in a small number of powerful organizations that operate remotely and do not have the personal local presence that would tend to instil a sense of responsibility towards any local > population. > >Simultaneously the pattern establishes an experience of commercial land-use (not to mention industrial land-use) as something intrusive and desirable only at a distance, giving support to the idea that it is beneficial to separate residential functions from all others, i.e. to the dormitory suburb pattern that today so predominates that few people realise how recent an inve
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Very well put Dawie! Good analysis, nice read, thankyou. All best Keith >- Original Message >From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2008 4:20:02 PM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages > > The damage Big Box >>Stores do is both local and systemic. It's called "Big Box blight". > >Precisely. There are lots of interrelated factors, but here's an example of just one aspect of the systemic nature of the problem. Big Box Stores and suburbia support one another: > >When one travels by car it's much harder to notice small things by the side of the road than had one been walking. Small businesses with traditionally-sized frontages go by in a blur. It is necessary to capture the motorist's attention by large physical scale of both buildings and signage. > >When one travels by car one tends to avoid unscheduled stops. Even in moderate traffic it is an irritation to have to get out of the stream and back into it afterwards. One is moreover concerned about the safety of one's car while it is unattended. Hence the motorist will tend to favour "one-stop" facilities. > >Similarly, when one travels by car one is not at liberty to turn on one's heel, on impulse, to go and investigate something that has caught one's eye the way one can when one is on foot. The motorist will therefore tend to favour destinations whose offerings are already known, e.g. through advertising. > >Thus we see that the fact that most people are travelling by car gives a distinct advantage to enterprises capable of operating large buildings with elaborate signage, holding large stocks of a large variety of types of products, and constantly running effective advertising campaigns over humbler enterprises that cannot, an advantage that would have been marginal but for the influence of car travel. These enterprises obviously seek to increase and consolidate this advantage by promoting the conditions that give rise to the advantage, and so we find a sort of snowball effect. So, the adoption of a given transport scenario, itself a function of a spatial/settlement scenario, gives form to a type of economic system. In this case it is a system that concentrates all economic power in a small number of powerful organizations that operate remotely and do not have the personal local presence that would tend to instil a sense of responsibility towards any local > population. > >Simultaneously the pattern establishes an experience of commercial land-use (not to mention industrial land-use) as something intrusive and desirable only at a distance, giving support to the idea that it is beneficial to separate residential functions from all others, i.e. to the dormitory suburb pattern that today so predominates that few people realise how recent an invention it is. This in turn leads to the reinforcement of the unfortunate sense of separation between the roles of producer and consumer, wherein "consumer activism" opposes the actions of producers on the basis that producers and consumers are necessarily fundamentally different sorts of things, the success of which ironically tends to undermine consumers' capacity to produce. > >And, as I say, this is only one view onto a system that displays the same detrimental convergences from any other viewpoint. Importantly, however, it is an artificial system and not the only possible system; but if the system is to be changed to one with an equal weight of beneficial convergences it must be understood that it is a system, and not a mere accretion of discrete and apparently mostly perverse "lifestyle choices". > >Regards > >Dawie Coetzee ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
- Original Message From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2008 4:21:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages >A false myth indeed. George Bernard Shaw said patriotism is the conviction >that your country is superior to all other countries because you were born >in it. LOL! I have to agree. It says somewhere on our website that Planet >Earth needs no flag of allegiance, but I'm beginning to wonder if Planet >Earth can even survive such an anachronistic thing as 200 national flags >of allegience for much longer, there just isn't any room for them in the >lifeboat. False flags are the only kind there is. I agree (apart from the word 'anachronistic'). But if there are any flags it is perhaps better if there were 200 000 than if there were only 20 or only two. Worst of all would be if there were only one. This even if that one were the Jolly Roger, which is the only flag I salute (and then only if I happen to feel like it at the time). -Dawie __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080115/a43cc41f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
- Original Message From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2008 4:20:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages The damage Big Box >Stores do is both local and systemic. It's called "Big Box blight". Precisely. There are lots of interrelated factors, but here's an example of just one aspect of the systemic nature of the problem. Big Box Stores and suburbia support one another: When one travels by car it's much harder to notice small things by the side of the road than had one been walking. Small businesses with traditionally-sized frontages go by in a blur. It is necessary to capture the motorist's attention by large physical scale of both buildings and signage. When one travels by car one tends to avoid unscheduled stops. Even in moderate traffic it is an irritation to have to get out of the stream and back into it afterwards. One is moreover concerned about the safety of one's car while it is unattended. Hence the motorist will tend to favour "one-stop" facilities. Similarly, when one travels by car one is not at liberty to turn on one's heel, on impulse, to go and investigate something that has caught one's eye the way one can when one is on foot. The motorist will therefore tend to favour destinations whose offerings are already known, e.g. through advertising. Thus we see that the fact that most people are travelling by car gives a distinct advantage to enterprises capable of operating large buildings with elaborate signage, holding large stocks of a large variety of types of products, and constantly running effective advertising campaigns over humbler enterprises that cannot, an advantage that would have been marginal but for the influence of car travel. These enterprises obviously seek to increase and consolidate this advantage by promoting the conditions that give rise to the advantage, and so we find a sort of snowball effect. So, the adoption of a given transport scenario, itself a function of a spatial/settlement scenario, gives form to a type of economic system. In this case it is a system that concentrates all economic power in a small number of powerful organizations that operate remotely and do not have the personal local presence that would tend to instil a sense of responsibility towards any local population. Simultaneously the pattern establishes an experience of commercial land-use (not to mention industrial land-use) as something intrusive and desirable only at a distance, giving support to the idea that it is beneficial to separate residential functions from all others, i.e. to the dormitory suburb pattern that today so predominates that few people realise how recent an invention it is. This in turn leads to the reinforcement of the unfortunate sense of separation between the roles of producer and consumer, wherein "consumer activism" opposes the actions of producers on the basis that producers and consumers are necessarily fundamentally different sorts of things, the success of which ironically tends to undermine consumers' capacity to produce. And, as I say, this is only one view onto a system that displays the same detrimental convergences from any other viewpoint. Importantly, however, it is an artificial system and not the only possible system; but if the system is to be changed to one with an equal weight of beneficial convergences it must be understood that it is a system, and not a mere accretion of discrete and apparently mostly perverse "lifestyle choices". Regards Dawie Coetzee ___ Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080115/e3682bdc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Hi Kirk >snip >(Strange though that he thought there's such a thing as a great nation.) > >Yes, I call it the myth of the state. A false myth indeed. George Bernard Shaw said patriotism is the conviction that your country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. LOL! I have to agree. It says somewhere on our website that Planet Earth needs no flag of allegiance, but I'm beginning to wonder if Planet Earth can even survive such an anachronistic thing as 200 national flags of allegience for much longer, there just isn't any room for them in the lifeboat. False flags are the only kind there is. I guess Gandhi should be forgiven, after all he was confronting the British Empire, on which the sun hadn't yet quite set, a daunting prospect. Great perhaps as in mighty, bigger and stronger than you. Regards Keith > Kirk > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Damn, they "improved" their site and broke all their links, and now even >their internal links don't work. Sorry! > >I've uploaded the pics here: > >http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/chicks1.jpg >Male chicks struggle to survive >Unwanted male chicks struggle to survive amid egg shells and garbage in a >dumpster behind a hatchery for laying hens. > >http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/chicks2.jpg >Dead and dying male chicks behind an egg hatchery >A dumpster behind a hatchery for laying hens is filled with dead and dying >male chicks who are of no economic value to the egg industry. > >>From the www.factoryfarming.com site: > >For every egg-laying hen confined in a battery cage, there is a male chick >who was killed at the hatchery. Because egg-laying chicken breeds have >been genetically selected exclusively for maximum egg production, they >don't grow fast or large enough to be raised profitably for meat. >Therefore, male chicks of egg-laying breeds are of no economic value, and >they are literally discarded on the day they hatch usually by the >cheapest, most convenient means available. Thrown into trash cans by the >thousands, male chicks suffocate or are crushed under the weight of >others. > >Another common method of disposing of unwanted male chicks is grinding >them up alive. This can result in unspeakable horrors, as described by one >research scientist who observed that "even after twenty seconds, there >were only partly damaged animals with whole skulls". In other words, fully >conscious chicks were partially ground up and left to slowly and >agonizingly die. Eyewitness accounts at commercial hatcheries indicate >similar horrors of chicks being slowly dismembered by machinery blades en >route to trash bins or manure spreaders. > >http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/eggs/ > >Chicks are fully aware when they hatch, they know perfectly well what's >happening to them. > >More here: >http://www.upc-online.org/chickens/chickensbro.html > >"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are >treated." Mohandas Gandhi. (Strange though that he thought there's such a >thing as a great nation.) > >Best > >Keith > > >>>Hi Chip, >>> >>>Excellent video. Independant merchants do not need over paid CEO's and >>underpaid staff and slave wages for the 3rd world manufacturing workers. >>>The cruelty to factory farmed chickens is really terifying. >> >>If they even get that far... >> >>http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/chicks02.htm >> >>:-( >> >>Keith >> >> >>>If every one patronized independent local stores more we could solve a >>lot of problems, including better more satisfying employment for people >>and more protection for the environment. >>> >>>Terry Dyck> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:41:49 -0500> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] >>Fwd: Cute Video with important messages> > Kirk McLoren wrote:> > > > > > >>Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.> > > > >>http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/> > > > This film was >>selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. >>Kirk McLoren wrote: >>> >>> >>> Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. >>> >>> http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ >>> >>> This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. >>> >>>It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. >>> >>>Is this about big box vs local business? or
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
LOL David! So many comfortable assumptions, no basis, no facts. Where to start? >>What exactly is so wrong with "Big Box Stores"? > >"What's wrong with them is what's wrong with local communities because of Big Box Stores, and what's wrong with the whole community as a result." > >Not sure I understand your statement but maybe it is just a grammatical error? :-) Not a grammatical error. The whole community is made up of all the local communities, no? Or don't you see it that way? The damage Big Box Stores do is both local and systemic. It's called "Big Box blight". >"For workers/shoppers it's part of the race to the bottom" > >Bottom of what? You don't know? All this stuff is new to you? The bottom of what is something else you can find out about in the list archives. If you really want to know, that is. In which case why not read Stacy Mitchell's "Big-Box Swindle" while you're at it? http://www.ilsr.org/mm5/merchant.mvc Big Box Swindle >If the workers didn't have the job they would be in line at the unemployment office, welfare office The Independent among others reports that Wal-Mart is the biggest single private employer in the United States and it pays "rock-bottom wages, which oblige thousands of its lower-end employees to resort to government subsistence, including food stamps, to make ends meet." So if you work for Wal-Mart you could very well be lining up at the welfare office too, both at the same time. Meanwhile I suspect you're subsidising Wal-Mart's wages bill with your taxes. > or working at another job for the same wages and likely less benefits. See, eg.: The Costco Way - Higher wages mean higher profits. But try telling Wall Street. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878084_mz021.htm Costco had posted a 25 percent profit gain, as well as a 14 percent sales hike. Yet Wall Street punished Costco's stock, driving it down 4 percent. Why? "One problem for Wall Street is that Costco pays its workers much better than archrival Wal-Mart Stores Inc. does, and analysts worry that Costco's operating expenses could get out of hand. 'At Costco, it's better to be an employee or a customer than a shareholder,' says Deutsche Bank analyst Bill Dreher." So much for analysts. (And comfortable assumptions.) >As for the shoppers they would be driving to half a dozen locations wasting fuel to buy what they need and can get at one location. Yes, that's part of the myth. Drive, drive, drive - you keep saying it. Why don't you try removing driving from your vocabulary and see what you get? >"for the store workers it's exploitation all the way from the store counters to China/wherever" > >How is exploitation when they are working for a paycheck? Most of the people have no other opportunities due to mostly lack of drive and/or education. So it's their own fault? Of course you can air your assumptions as much as you like, but it's gross and wilful (yes) ignorance to blame a few billion other people for the engineered disasters which have driven them to poverty, disasters from which you personally benefit. You can do that somewhere else maybe, but not here. I don't really expect you to understand that, but rest assured it's not a grammatical error. (If you want to know more, go to the link at the bottom of the page.) I said wilful ignorance: even the mainstream media in the US have covered these issues well, there's a large amount of solid information readily available, it's no secret unless you want it to be. More specifically, three times you've been told to use the list's resources, especially the archives, the last time by me, complete with url's, and you ignored it. Why? No time, too busy? People are usually happy to rid themselves of ignorance, but when it's the kind of ignorance that isn't what they don't know but what they do know that's wrong, too often they'd rather defend it no matter what. That sure suits Wal-Mart et al, and that's why they're happy to go on paying all those mega-billions to the opinion industry. Your head's stuffed with manufactured opinions and you think they're your own. >>Oh well. Chip did say it's an effective approach. This is what he said (it's still down there at the end): >>>Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more >>>pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This >>>pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the >>>consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's >>>subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) >>>understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, >>>all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. >>>This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind >>>of the 'consumer' works. Indeed. >In China and other lands around the world, I realize many issues exist with regards to living, working and numerous other conditions, however those countries governments are to blame not the wal-marts of the world. The mom
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Hello Keith, "What's wrong with them is what's wrong with local communities because of Big Box Stores, and what's wrong with the whole community as a result." Not sure I understand your statement but maybe it is just a grammatical error? "For workers/shoppers it's part of the race to the bottom" Bottom of what? If the workers didn't have the job they would be in line at the unemployment office, welfare office or working at another job for the same wages and likely less benefits. As for the shoppers they would be driving to half a dozen locations wasting fuel to buy what they need and can get at one location. "for the store workers it's exploitation all the way from the store counters to China/wherever" How is exploitation when they are working for a paycheck? Most of the people have no other opportunities due to mostly lack of drive and/or education. In China and other lands around the world, I realize many issues exist with regards to living, working and numerous other conditions, however those countries governments are to blame not the wal-marts of the world. The mom and pop stores sell they same products albeit at a higher price due to the logistics of getting small quantities to more locations not because the worker was paid more, given better working conditions or any such thing. David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello David >What exactly is so wrong with "Big Box Stores"? What's wrong with them is what's wrong with local communities because of Big Box Stores, and what's wrong with the whole community as a result. For workers/shoppers it's part of the race to the bottom, for the store workers it's exploitation all the way from the store counters to China/wherever, for consumer health it's part of the disease, for the environment it's part of the disaster. Waldemart. Please do see: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=walmart&[EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel - walmart 133 matches or http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&q=wal-mart Biofuel - wal-mart 222 matches >I can go to one store and buy most everything I need and granted some things I don't really need but want just the same. I don't have to drive 15 miles to five different locations to buy the things I can buy at one location. It is not just about convenience but about efficiency both in my time as well as resources. Think about the overall resources to get products to five different stores or five products to one store! It is not just about my efficiency but about the efficiency at which we use all resources. My local box store buys 90% of its fresh produce from local suppliers when it is available. So instead of driving 24 miles one way to the farmers market I can go less than 1 mile round trip to buy the very same produce. The local farmers here love Wal-Mart! I'd appreciate a little detail to corroborate that last bit, about local farmers round there loving WalMart, if you have any. Can you quote a local farmer at a farmers market saying they love Walmart? Serious request, not a challenge, I'm collecting data on such things. Thanks! "Walmart, Target, Costco, Wild Oats are being sued for selling fake organic milk from Aurora." http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71568.html Etc.: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=walmart+%2Borganic walmart +organic - Google Search Oh well. Chip did say it's an effective approach. Best Keith > >Regards, >David >Chip Mefford wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: >> >> >> Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. >> >> http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ >> >> This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. > >It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. > >Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just >yet still another slam against WallMart? >Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. > >That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has >it coming. > >But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, >and here's some reasons why. > >The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. >Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more >pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This >pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the >consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's >subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) >understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, >all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. >This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind >of the 'consumer' works. > >Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise >from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But >not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright, >as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and >closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up,
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
snip >(Strange though that he thought there's such a thing as a great nation.) Yes, I call it the myth of the state. Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Damn, they "improved" their site and broke all their links, and now even their internal links don't work. Sorry! I've uploaded the pics here: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/chicks1.jpg Male chicks struggle to survive Unwanted male chicks struggle to survive amid egg shells and garbage in a dumpster behind a hatchery for laying hens. http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/chicks2.jpg Dead and dying male chicks behind an egg hatchery A dumpster behind a hatchery for laying hens is filled with dead and dying male chicks who are of no economic value to the egg industry. >From the www.factoryfarming.com site: For every egg-laying hen confined in a battery cage, there is a male chick who was killed at the hatchery. Because egg-laying chicken breeds have been genetically selected exclusively for maximum egg production, they don't grow fast or large enough to be raised profitably for meat. Therefore, male chicks of egg-laying breeds are of no economic value, and they are literally discarded on the day they hatch usually by the cheapest, most convenient means available. Thrown into trash cans by the thousands, male chicks suffocate or are crushed under the weight of others. Another common method of disposing of unwanted male chicks is grinding them up alive. This can result in unspeakable horrors, as described by one research scientist who observed that "even after twenty seconds, there were only partly damaged animals with whole skulls". In other words, fully conscious chicks were partially ground up and left to slowly and agonizingly die. Eyewitness accounts at commercial hatcheries indicate similar horrors of chicks being slowly dismembered by machinery blades en route to trash bins or manure spreaders. http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/eggs/ Chicks are fully aware when they hatch, they know perfectly well what's happening to them. More here: http://www.upc-online.org/chickens/chickensbro.html "The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mohandas Gandhi. (Strange though that he thought there's such a thing as a great nation.) Best Keith >>Hi Chip, >> >>Excellent video. Independant merchants do not need over paid CEO's and >underpaid staff and slave wages for the 3rd world manufacturing workers. >>The cruelty to factory farmed chickens is really terifying. > >If they even get that far... > >http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/chicks02.htm > >:-( > >Keith > > >>If every one patronized independent local stores more we could solve a >lot of problems, including better more satisfying employment for people >and more protection for the environment. >> >>Terry Dyck> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:41:49 -0500> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] >Fwd: Cute Video with important messages> > Kirk McLoren wrote:> > > > > > >Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.> > > > >http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/> > > > This film was >selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. >Kirk McLoren wrote: >> >> >> Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. >> >> http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ >> >> This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. >> >>It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. >> >>Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just >>yet still another slam against WallMart? >>Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. >> >>That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has >>it coming. >> >>But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, >>and here's some reasons why. >> >>The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. >>Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more >>pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This >>pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the >>consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's >>subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) >>understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, >>all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. >>This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind >>of the 'consumer' works. >> >>Being of a skep
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Damn, they "improved" their site and broke all their links, and now even their internal links don't work. Sorry! I've uploaded the pics here: http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/chicks1.jpg Male chicks struggle to survive Unwanted male chicks struggle to survive amid egg shells and garbage in a dumpster behind a hatchery for laying hens. http://journeytoforever.org/bflpics/chicks2.jpg Dead and dying male chicks behind an egg hatchery A dumpster behind a hatchery for laying hens is filled with dead and dying male chicks who are of no economic value to the egg industry. >From the www.factoryfarming.com site: For every egg-laying hen confined in a battery cage, there is a male chick who was killed at the hatchery. Because egg-laying chicken breeds have been genetically selected exclusively for maximum egg production, they don't grow fast or large enough to be raised profitably for meat. Therefore, male chicks of egg-laying breeds are of no economic value, and they are literally discarded on the day they hatch usually by the cheapest, most convenient means available. Thrown into trash cans by the thousands, male chicks suffocate or are crushed under the weight of others. Another common method of disposing of unwanted male chicks is grinding them up alive. This can result in unspeakable horrors, as described by one research scientist who observed that "even after twenty seconds, there were only partly damaged animals with whole skulls". In other words, fully conscious chicks were partially ground up and left to slowly and agonizingly die. Eyewitness accounts at commercial hatcheries indicate similar horrors of chicks being slowly dismembered by machinery blades en route to trash bins or manure spreaders. http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/eggs/ Chicks are fully aware when they hatch, they know perfectly well what's happening to them. More here: http://www.upc-online.org/chickens/chickensbro.html "The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mohandas Gandhi. (Strange though that he thought there's such a thing as a great nation.) Best Keith >>Hi Chip, >> >>Excellent video. Independant merchants do not need over paid CEO's and >underpaid staff and slave wages for the 3rd world manufacturing workers. >>The cruelty to factory farmed chickens is really terifying. > >If they even get that far... > >http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/chicks02.htm > >:-( > >Keith > > >>If every one patronized independent local stores more we could solve a >lot of problems, including better more satisfying employment for people >and more protection for the environment. >> >>Terry Dyck> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:41:49 -0500> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] >Fwd: Cute Video with important messages> > Kirk McLoren wrote:> > > > > > >Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.> > > > >http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/> > > > This film was >selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. >Kirk McLoren wrote: >> >> >> Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. >> >> http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ >> >> This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. >> >>It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. >> >>Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just >>yet still another slam against WallMart? >>Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. >> >>That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has >>it coming. >> >>But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, >>and here's some reasons why. >> >>The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. >>Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more >>pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This >>pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the >>consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's >>subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) >>understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, >>all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. >>This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind >>of the 'consumer' works. >> >>Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise >>from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But >>not with 'joe public consumer'
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
>Hi Chip, > >Excellent video. Independant merchants do not need over paid CEO's and underpaid staff and slave wages for the 3rd world manufacturing workers. >The cruelty to factory farmed chickens is really terifying. If they even get that far... http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/chicks02.htm :-( Keith >If every one patronized independent local stores more we could solve a lot of problems, including better more satisfying employment for people and more protection for the environment. > >Terry Dyck> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:41:49 -0500> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages> > Kirk McLoren wrote:> > > > > > Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.> > > > http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/> > > > This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. > > It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it.> > Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just> yet still another slam against WallMart?> Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart.> > That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has> it coming.> > But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time,> and here's some reasons why.> > The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think.> Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more> pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This> pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the> consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's> subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh)> understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint,> all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc.> This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind> of the 'consumer' works.> > Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise> from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But> not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright,> as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and> closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up,> and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand> how debates work, know what I mean.> > IMO, a better approach would have been a stronger 'sales pitch'> of the local business, farmers market and a lot less pejorative> coverage of the big box. Just from a point of debate, there is> a lot of apples vs oranges in that video. I see this more and more> in short videos of this sort.> > In my quite limited experience, there are 'broad scale' farmers> who are really good folks, and small scale farmer's market types> who are complete jerks. That said, the trend is quite clear.> > There is optimism, and there is pessimism. There is advocacy> and there is criticism. For some reason, there seems to be> a lot of focus on criticism before advocacy. I'm not sure that's> the best approach, for very many reasons.> > I could nitpick this video, there are problems with the facts as> presented. But so what? I'd rather advocate for small/local> businesses and small/local growers/diaries/farms.> > End of the day, for a legion of reasons, the Big-Box approach> is fundamentally broken, it won't work out in the long run> and so, I'd say, pay them no more mind (or money :) Focus on what works,> will work, and get on with it. The more you live this, the> more you'll find friends/co-workers/acquaintances with questions.> You can refer them to this list :)> > --> > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Well if you were on I-75 on your trip home and went through Kentucky you should
have made a stop. My "here" is Kentucky, specifically, Louisville. I'm not sure
about other parts of the country but here in Kentucky it is common-place for
large chain stores to carry a preponderance of "home grown" products and we are
not just talking fruits and vegetables. I'm talking everything from furniture
to eggs. It is known as "Kentucky Proud". Any item produced in any way in
Kentucky has a sticker affixed with the "Kentucky Proud" label which lets the
customer know they are supporting Kentucky producers. Obviously if I am in the
area of a farmers market or see a road side stand that is always my first
choice but I never make special trips as the market is really close. Maybe some
other states need to move towards this type of process.
David
Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: David,
You wrote:
"The local farmers here love Wal-Mart!"
I don't know where your "here" is. I also don't know if things have
changed dramatically in the last year or so but
I was visiting friends in Florida (southern US) during September of '06.
I commented that I thought there would be better produce in their
supermarkets. The tomatoes, peaches and strawberries reminded me of what is
available in December. I was told that they, the friends, bought most of
their produce from local farm markets rather than from the large
supermarkets.
On the way home to New York, I stopped at a farm stand in Georgia, the
"peach state", and bought half a bushel of fresh, delicious peaches. I asked
if I could get the same local peaches in Walmart and was told "No". The
young lady told me that the large supermarket chains deal with suppliers
that can deliver peaches, and other fruit and vegetables, all year round.
The local farmers can't do that. Their produce was sold at farm stands,
farmer's markets, and some of the small local markets . not the larger
supermarket chains.
When I returned home I spoke to the owner of our small, local market.
He seemed to agree with what I was told. He dealt with a distributor that
could assure delivery of produce year round. He does offer local produce
during the spring, summer and into the fall.
I've heard that the Walmarts of the world are now offering "organic"
produce. I have neither seen nor heard of them featuring locally-produced
meats or produce.
Maybe things have changed. Maybe your "here" is very different from my
"here".
Tom
----- Original Message -
From: "David Lawson"
To:
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
> What exactly is so wrong with "Big Box Stores"? I can go to one store and
> buy most everything I need and granted some things I don't really need but
> want just the same. I don't have to drive 15 miles to five different
> locations to buy the things I can buy at one location. It is not just
> about convenience but about efficiency both in my time as well as
> resources. Think about the overall resources to get products to five
> different stores or five products to one store! It is not just about my
> efficiency but about the efficiency at which we use all resources. My
> local box store buys 90% of its fresh produce from local suppliers when it
> is available. So instead of driving 24 miles one way to the farmers market
> I can go less than 1 mile round trip to buy the very same produce.
>
> Regards,
> David
> Chip Mefford wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote:
>>
>>
>> Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.
>>
>> http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/
>>
>> This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival.
>
> It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it.
>
> Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just
> yet still another slam against WallMart?
> Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart.
>
> That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has
> it coming.
>
> But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time,
> and here's some reasons why.
>
> The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think.
> Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more
> pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This
> pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the
> consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's
> subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh)
> unde
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Hello David >What exactly is so wrong with "Big Box Stores"? What's wrong with them is what's wrong with local communities because of Big Box Stores, and what's wrong with the whole community as a result. For workers/shoppers it's part of the race to the bottom, for the store workers it's exploitation all the way from the store counters to China/wherever, for consumer health it's part of the disease, for the environment it's part of the disaster. Waldemart. Please do see: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=walmart&[EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel - walmart 133 matches or http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&q=wal-mart Biofuel - wal-mart 222 matches >I can go to one store and buy most everything I need and granted some things I don't really need but want just the same. I don't have to drive 15 miles to five different locations to buy the things I can buy at one location. It is not just about convenience but about efficiency both in my time as well as resources. Think about the overall resources to get products to five different stores or five products to one store! It is not just about my efficiency but about the efficiency at which we use all resources. My local box store buys 90% of its fresh produce from local suppliers when it is available. So instead of driving 24 miles one way to the farmers market I can go less than 1 mile round trip to buy the very same produce. The local farmers here love Wal-Mart! I'd appreciate a little detail to corroborate that last bit, about local farmers round there loving WalMart, if you have any. Can you quote a local farmer at a farmers market saying they love Walmart? Serious request, not a challenge, I'm collecting data on such things. Thanks! "Walmart, Target, Costco, Wild Oats are being sued for selling fake organic milk from Aurora." http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg71568.html Etc.: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=walmart+%2Borganic walmart +organic - Google Search Oh well. Chip did say it's an effective approach. Best Keith > >Regards, >David >Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: >> >> >> Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. >> >> http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ >> >> This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. > >It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. > >Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just >yet still another slam against WallMart? >Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. > >That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has >it coming. > >But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, >and here's some reasons why. > >The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. >Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more >pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This >pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the >consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's >subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) >understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, >all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. >This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind >of the 'consumer' works. > >Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise >from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But >not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright, >as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and >closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up, >and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand >how debates work, know what I mean. > >IMO, a better approach would have been a stronger 'sales pitch' >of the local business, farmers market and a lot less pejorative >coverage of the big box. Just from a point of debate, there is >a lot of apples vs oranges in that video. I see this more and more >in short videos of this sort. > >In my quite limited experience, there are 'broad scale' farmers >who are really good folks, and small scale farmer's market types >who are complete jerks. That said, the trend is quite clear. > >There is optimism, and there is pessimism. There is advocacy >and there is criticism. For some reason, there seems to be >a lot of focus on criticism before advocacy. I'm not sure that's >the best approach, for very many reasons. > >I could nitpick this video, there are problems with the facts as >presented. But so what? I'd rather advocate for small/local >businesses and small/local growers/diaries/farms. > >End of the day, for a legion of reasons, the Big-Box approach >is fundamentally broken, it won't work out in the long run >and so, I'd say, pay them no more mind (or money :) Focus on what works, >will work, and get on with it. The more you live this, the >more you'll find friends/co-workers/acquaintances with questions. >You can re
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Hi Chip, Excellent video. Independant merchants do not need over paid CEO's and underpaid staff and slave wages for the 3rd world manufacturing workers. The cruelty to factory farmed chickens is really terifying. If every one patronized independent local stores more we could solve a lot of problems, including better more satisfying employment for people and more protection for the environment. Terry Dyck> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:41:49 -0500> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages> > Kirk McLoren wrote:> > > > > > Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption.> > > > http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/> > > > This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. > > It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it.> > Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just> yet still another slam against WallMart?> Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart.> > That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has> it coming.> > But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time,> and here's some reasons why.> > The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think.> Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more> pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This> pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the> consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's> subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh)> understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint,> all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc.> This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind> of the 'consumer' works.> > Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise> from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But> not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright,> as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and> closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up,> and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand> how debates work, know what I mean.> > IMO, a better approach would have been a stronger 'sales pitch'> of the local business, farmers market and a lot less pejorative> coverage of the big box. Just from a point of debate, there is> a lot of apples vs oranges in that video. I see this more and more> in short videos of this sort.> > In my quite limited experience, there are 'broad scale' farmers> who are really good folks, and small scale farmer's market types> who are complete jerks. That said, the trend is quite clear.> > There is optimism, and there is pessimism. There is advocacy> and there is criticism. For some reason, there seems to be> a lot of focus on criticism before advocacy. I'm not sure that's> the best approach, for very many reasons.> > I could nitpick this video, there are problems with the facts as> presented. But so what? I'd rather advocate for small/local> businesses and small/local growers/diaries/farms.> > End of the day, for a legion of reasons, the Big-Box approach> is fundamentally broken, it won't work out in the long run> and so, I'd say, pay them no more mind (or money :) Focus on what works,> will work, and get on with it. The more you live this, the> more you'll find friends/co-workers/acquaintances with questions.> You can refer them to this list :)> > --> > ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon! http://puzzles.sympatico.msn.ca/chicktionary/index.html?icid=htmlsig -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080112/eab541cd/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
David, You wrote: "The local farmers here love Wal-Mart!" I don't know where your "here" is. I also don't know if things have changed dramatically in the last year or so but I was visiting friends in Florida (southern US) during September of '06. I commented that I thought there would be better produce in their supermarkets. The tomatoes, peaches and strawberries reminded me of what is available in December. I was told that they, the friends, bought most of their produce from local farm markets rather than from the large supermarkets. On the way home to New York, I stopped at a farm stand in Georgia, the "peach state", and bought half a bushel of fresh, delicious peaches. I asked if I could get the same local peaches in Walmart and was told "No". The young lady told me that the large supermarket chains deal with suppliers that can deliver peaches, and other fruit and vegetables, all year round. The local farmers can't do that. Their produce was sold at farm stands, farmer's markets, and some of the small local markets . not the larger supermarket chains. When I returned home I spoke to the owner of our small, local market. He seemed to agree with what I was told. He dealt with a distributor that could assure delivery of produce year round. He does offer local produce during the spring, summer and into the fall. I've heard that the Walmarts of the world are now offering "organic" produce. I have neither seen nor heard of them featuring locally-produced meats or produce. Maybe things have changed. Maybe your "here" is very different from my "here". Tom - Original Message - From: "David Lawson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages > What exactly is so wrong with "Big Box Stores"? I can go to one store and > buy most everything I need and granted some things I don't really need but > want just the same. I don't have to drive 15 miles to five different > locations to buy the things I can buy at one location. It is not just > about convenience but about efficiency both in my time as well as > resources. Think about the overall resources to get products to five > different stores or five products to one store! It is not just about my > efficiency but about the efficiency at which we use all resources. My > local box store buys 90% of its fresh produce from local suppliers when it > is available. So instead of driving 24 miles one way to the farmers market > I can go less than 1 mile round trip to buy the very same produce. > > Regards, > David > Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: >> >> >> Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. >> >> http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ >> >> This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. > > It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. > > Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just > yet still another slam against WallMart? > Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. > > That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has > it coming. > > But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, > and here's some reasons why. > > The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. > Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more > pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This > pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the > consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's > subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) > understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, > all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. > This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind > of the 'consumer' works. > > Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise > from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But > not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright, > as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and > closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up, > and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand > how debates work, know what I mean. > > IMO, a better approach would have been a stronger 'sales pitch' > of the local business, farmers market and a lot less pejorative > coverage of the b
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
On 1/11/08, Chris Burck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i think that's part of what of chip is getting at. the convenience is > part of the allure, but that perceived efficiency is offset by a lot > of inefficiencies at the frontend. the preponderence of products > imported from overseas, for example (i.e. lots of transportation > miles). even they get "90%fresh produce from local suppliers" is an > easy claim when you have loopholes like "when available" to wiggle > through. in today's world of monoculture "farming," it would be more > meaningful if they undertook to promote a diverse local supply. > > On 1/11/08, David Lawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What exactly is so wrong with "Big Box Stores"? I can go to one store and > > buy most everything I need and granted some things I don't really need but > > want just the same. I don't have to drive 15 miles to five different > > locations to buy the things I can buy at one location. It is not just > about > > convenience but about efficiency both in my time as well as resources. > Think > > about the overall resources to get products to five different stores or > five > > products to one store! It is not just about my efficiency but about the > > efficiency at which we use all resources. My local box store buys 90% of > its > > fresh produce from local suppliers when it is available. So instead of > > driving 24 miles one way to the farmers market I can go less than 1 mile > > round trip to buy the very same produce. The local farmers here love > > Wal-Mart! > > > > Regards, > > David > > Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: > > > > > > > > > Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. > > > > > > http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ > > > > > > This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film > Festival. > > > > It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. > > > > Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just > > yet still another slam against WallMart? > > Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. > > > > That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has > > it coming. > > > > But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, > > and here's some reasons why. > > > > The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. > > Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more > > pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This > > pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the > > consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's > > subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) > > understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, > > all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. > > This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind > > of the 'consumer' works. > > > > Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise > > from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But > > not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright, > > as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and > > closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up, > > and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand > > how debates work, know what I mean. > > > > IMO, a better approach would have been a stronger 'sales pitch' > > of the local business, farmers market and a lot less pejorative > > coverage of the big box. Just from a point of debate, there is > > a lot of apples vs oranges in that video. I see this more and more > > in short videos of this sort. > > > > In my quite limited experience, there are 'broad scale' farmers > > who are really good folks, and small scale farmer's market types > > who are complete jerks. That said, the trend is quite clear. > > > > There is optimism, and there is pessimism. There is advocacy > > and there is criticism. For some reason, there seems to be > > a lot of focus on criticism before advocacy. I'm not sure that's > > the best approach, for very many reasons. > > > > I could nitpick this video, there are problems with the facts as > > presented. But so what? I'd rather advocate for small/local > > businesses and small/local growers/diaries/farms. > > > > End of the day, for a legion of reasons, the Big-Box approach > > is fundamentally broken, it won't work out in the long run > > and so, I'd say, pay them no more mind (or money :) Focus on what works, > > will work, and get on with it. The more you live this, the > > more you'll find friends/co-workers/acquaintances with questions. > > You can refer them to this list :) > > > > -- > > > > ___ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the com
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
i think that's part of what of chip is getting at. the convenience is part of the allure, but that perceived efficiency is offset by a lot of inefficiencies at the frontend. the preponderence of products imported from overseas, for example (i.e. lots of transportation miles). even they get "90%fresh produce from local suppliers" is an easy claim when you have loopholes like "when available" to wiggle through. in today's world of monoculture "farming," it would be more meaningful if they undertook to promote a diverse local supply. On 1/11/08, David Lawson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What exactly is so wrong with "Big Box Stores"? I can go to one store and > buy most everything I need and granted some things I don't really need but > want just the same. I don't have to drive 15 miles to five different > locations to buy the things I can buy at one location. It is not just about > convenience but about efficiency both in my time as well as resources. Think > about the overall resources to get products to five different stores or five > products to one store! It is not just about my efficiency but about the > efficiency at which we use all resources. My local box store buys 90% of its > fresh produce from local suppliers when it is available. So instead of > driving 24 miles one way to the farmers market I can go less than 1 mile > round trip to buy the very same produce. The local farmers here love > Wal-Mart! > > Regards, > David > Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: > > > > > > Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. > > > > http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ > > > > This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. > > It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. > > Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just > yet still another slam against WallMart? > Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. > > That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has > it coming. > > But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, > and here's some reasons why. > > The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. > Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more > pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This > pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the > consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's > subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) > understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, > all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. > This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind > of the 'consumer' works. > > Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise > from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But > not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright, > as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and > closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up, > and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand > how debates work, know what I mean. > > IMO, a better approach would have been a stronger 'sales pitch' > of the local business, farmers market and a lot less pejorative > coverage of the big box. Just from a point of debate, there is > a lot of apples vs oranges in that video. I see this more and more > in short videos of this sort. > > In my quite limited experience, there are 'broad scale' farmers > who are really good folks, and small scale farmer's market types > who are complete jerks. That said, the trend is quite clear. > > There is optimism, and there is pessimism. There is advocacy > and there is criticism. For some reason, there seems to be > a lot of focus on criticism before advocacy. I'm not sure that's > the best approach, for very many reasons. > > I could nitpick this video, there are problems with the facts as > presented. But so what? I'd rather advocate for small/local > businesses and small/local growers/diaries/farms. > > End of the day, for a legion of reasons, the Big-Box approach > is fundamentally broken, it won't work out in the long run > and so, I'd say, pay them no more mind (or money :) Focus on what works, > will work, and get on with it. The more you live this, the > more you'll find friends/co-workers/acquaintances with questions. > You can refer them to this list :) > > -- > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > - > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > -- n
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
What exactly is so wrong with "Big Box Stores"? I can go to one store and buy most everything I need and granted some things I don't really need but want just the same. I don't have to drive 15 miles to five different locations to buy the things I can buy at one location. It is not just about convenience but about efficiency both in my time as well as resources. Think about the overall resources to get products to five different stores or five products to one store! It is not just about my efficiency but about the efficiency at which we use all resources. My local box store buys 90% of its fresh produce from local suppliers when it is available. So instead of driving 24 miles one way to the farmers market I can go less than 1 mile round trip to buy the very same produce. The local farmers here love Wal-Mart! Regards, David Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kirk McLoren wrote: > > > Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. > > http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ > > This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just yet still another slam against WallMart? Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has it coming. But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, and here's some reasons why. The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind of the 'consumer' works. Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright, as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up, and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand how debates work, know what I mean. IMO, a better approach would have been a stronger 'sales pitch' of the local business, farmers market and a lot less pejorative coverage of the big box. Just from a point of debate, there is a lot of apples vs oranges in that video. I see this more and more in short videos of this sort. In my quite limited experience, there are 'broad scale' farmers who are really good folks, and small scale farmer's market types who are complete jerks. That said, the trend is quite clear. There is optimism, and there is pessimism. There is advocacy and there is criticism. For some reason, there seems to be a lot of focus on criticism before advocacy. I'm not sure that's the best approach, for very many reasons. I could nitpick this video, there are problems with the facts as presented. But so what? I'd rather advocate for small/local businesses and small/local growers/diaries/farms. End of the day, for a legion of reasons, the Big-Box approach is fundamentally broken, it won't work out in the long run and so, I'd say, pay them no more mind (or money :) Focus on what works, will work, and get on with it. The more you live this, the more you'll find friends/co-workers/acquaintances with questions. You can refer them to this list :) -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080111/fd3f8701/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Kirk McLoren wrote: > > > Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. > > http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ > > This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. It is a cute video. But I have some issues with it. Is this about big box vs local business? or is it just yet still another slam against WallMart? Near as I can tell, it's just more slamming of WallMart. That's just fine with me on one level. WallMart certainly has it coming. But on many other levels, I think it's mostly a waste of time, and here's some reasons why. The video isn't going to change anyone's point of view, I don't think. Folks who still accept the WallMart model, are under much more pressure from WallMart than they are from local businesses. This pressure is well understood by folks who have built up the consumer mindset over the last 150-200 years quite well. It's subliminal and quite powerful. The wallmart overlords (heh) understand it really well. Hence the push for the green paint, all the hype about skylighting, 'organic' groceries, etc. This (effective) approach at heading off 'doubts' in the mind of the 'consumer' works. Being of a skeptical (and yes, ofttimes cynical) mindset, noise from wallmart about organic sets off alarm bells with me. But not with 'joe public consumer'. Attacking WallMart outright, as this video does, just shuts 'joe public consumer' down, and closes out any discussion. 'Jpc' already has their mind made up, and attacks neatly sidestep the debate. Folks who understand how debates work, know what I mean. IMO, a better approach would have been a stronger 'sales pitch' of the local business, farmers market and a lot less pejorative coverage of the big box. Just from a point of debate, there is a lot of apples vs oranges in that video. I see this more and more in short videos of this sort. In my quite limited experience, there are 'broad scale' farmers who are really good folks, and small scale farmer's market types who are complete jerks. That said, the trend is quite clear. There is optimism, and there is pessimism. There is advocacy and there is criticism. For some reason, there seems to be a lot of focus on criticism before advocacy. I'm not sure that's the best approach, for very many reasons. I could nitpick this video, there are problems with the facts as presented. But so what? I'd rather advocate for small/local businesses and small/local growers/diaries/farms. End of the day, for a legion of reasons, the Big-Box approach is fundamentally broken, it won't work out in the long run and so, I'd say, pay them no more mind (or money :) Focus on what works, will work, and get on with it. The more you live this, the more you'll find friends/co-workers/acquaintances with questions. You can refer them to this list :) -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Fwd: Cute Video with important messages
Cute video, 9 min, with some important messages about consumption. http://www.alternet.org/blogs/workplace/73239/ This film was selected for the 2008 Sonoma Environmental Film Festival. - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080110/ce08b1b5/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
