Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
I have read TUSoD. It didn't rock my world. Some interesting analogies, and some worthwhile messages worth repeating. Learned quite a bit about the demise of the Roman Empire. THD talks about increasing resiliency in our structures, and that's a valid point. Also, we need to develop plans for how to restructure when "opportunities" (collapses) do occur. I recognize there are no one-size-fits-all solutions, but I found the lack of any concrete ideas for moving forward was disappointing to me. Lots of interesting facts and many valid points about current practices and the likelihood we are not going to maintain all these complex structures when cheap oil runs out. Somehow, I just didn't feel it was all pulled together with a defining message. Maybe the crash is inevitable. I'm still optimistic enough to believe otherwise, and working in that direction. Adjustments are inevitable - do we start adjusting now, based on a plan, or just continue running, ever faster, to the precipice? If we don't want to stampede off the cliff, what do we do to start turning away from the abyss? (I know there are many answers, and many have already been discussed on this list. Many others are not as aware, so I think part of the solution is still spreading the message that there is a problem.) Darryl Keith Addison wrote: > http://www.alternet.org/stories/47963/ > AlterNet: > Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? > > By Terrence McNally, AlterNet. Posted February 13, 2007. > > An interview with author Thomas Homer-Dixon about the social, > political, economic and technological crises we face and how long we > can sustain the lifestyle that brought them about. > > Humankind is doing more things, faster, across a greater space than > ever before, producing changes of a size and speed never seen before. > > Thomas Homer-Dixon compares our current situation to driving too fast > along a country road in a dense fog. Some ignore the fog and keep > their foot pressed on the accelerator, but most of us feel like > fairly helpless passengers on this wild ride. > > In 1870, the average income in the world's richest country was about > nine times greater than that in the world's poorest country. By 1990 > it was forty-five times greater. > > In 2006, the world's 793 billionaires held combined wealth of $2.6 > trillion. (If liquidated in 2006), this wealth could have hired the > poorest half of the world's workers -- the 1.4 billion workers who > earn a few dollars a day -- for almost two years. > > Between 1977 and 1996, the weight of the average American > cheeseburger grew over 25 percent, and the volume of the average soft > drink grew more than 50 percent. About 40 percent of the world's > population now lacks sufficient water for basic sanitation and > hygiene, and nearly one out of every five people does not have enough > to drink. > > Between 2000 and the beginning of 2005, China's daily oil imports > soared 140 percent. Saudi Arabia, has pumped a total of 46 billion > barrels of oil in the past 17 years, without admitting to any > decrease in its stated reserve figure of about 260 billion barrels. > > Since 1950, industrialized fishing has reduced the total mass of > large fish in the world's oceans by 90 percent. The atmosphere's > level of carbon dioxide is the highest in 650,000 years. > > Is a deadly crash inevitable? > > Thomas Homer-Dixon is director of the Trudeau Centre for the Study of > Peace and Conflict at the University of Toronto. He is the author of > "The Ingenuity Gap" and his newest book "The Upside of Down: > Catastrophe, Creativity, and the Renewal of Civilization." > > Terrence McNally: What are the biggest questions driving you right now? > > Thomas Homer-Dixon: I have a 20-month-old son, and I'm concerned > about the future for him. I'm trying to figure out what might happen > and how we can make it better. > > It's unlikely that the future is going to be a linear extrapolation > of the present, but I've pretty well arrived at the conclusion that > the diversity and power of the stresses that we're encountering are > going to cause some major volatility. I expect social, political, > economic and technological crises and breakdowns. It's hard to say > what they're going to look like, but the probability of some major > problems developing is rising. > > So how are we going to respond in times of crisis? > > In the book I introduce the metaphor of earthquakes. I talk about > tectonic stresses building up under the surface of our societies and > of global society. Now this is something that Californians are very > familiar with. Everybody in the state knows that there are mighty > tectonic plates pressing together along the San Andreas Fault, among > others. Potential energy builds up, and at some point it's released > in earthquakes that can have devastating consequences. > > And I think the same is at least meta
Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. Fred Oliff wrote: > "screw the meek", they have had over 2000 years to do something and have > not, doth quote the Onion OK-who did the Onion Quote? Or should that be The Onion saith... Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
I like it, thanks! The earth they inherit will hopefully be worth something inheriting. >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? >Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:36:43 +0900 > > >Hey Fred...the statement to which you refer says nothing about what kind >of > >earth the meek would inherit. In fact, the meek being the meek (ie > >"enduring injury with patience and without resentment...deficient in >spirit > >and courage...not violent or strong") are probably quite happy being > >screwed. IMHO, unless you have an ulterior motive to screwing the meek > >generally or maybe a particular meek, I say find another choir. Mike >DuPree > >PS Earth First anyone > >Some take the bible >For what it's worth >When it says that the meek >Shall inherit the Earth >Well, I heard that some sheik >Has bought New Jersey last week >'N you suckers ain't gettin' nothin' > >Is Hare Rama really wrong >If you wander around >With a napkin on >With a bell on a stick >An' your hair is all gone . . . >(The geek shall inherit nothin') > >You say yer life's a bum deal >'N yer up against the wall . . . >Well, people, you ain't even got no kinda >Deal at all >'Cause what they do >In Washington >They just takes care of NUMBER ONE >An' NUMBER ONE ain't YOU >You ain't even NUMBER TWO > >Those Jesus Freaks >Well, they're friendly but >The shit they believe >Has got their minds all shut >An' they don't even care >When the church takes a cut >Ain't it bleak when you got so much nothin' > >Frank Zappa: The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing >from "You Are What You Is". > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "Fred Oliff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:40 AM > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization >Inevitable? > > > > > > > "screw the meek", they have had over 2000 years to do something and >have > > > not, doth quote the Onion > > > > > > > > >>From: "John Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > >>To: > > >>Subject: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? > > >>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:36:57 -0400 > > >> > > >>Amazing! It was fortold over two thousand years ago that "The meek >shall > > >>inherit the earth." Mankind and all higher life forms are on a >collision > > >>course with extinsion. At the time of the last ice age when the sun > > >>eventually fails to put out enough energy to subtain life the only >life > > >>left on earth will be single cell organism living in vents underneath > > >>frozen oceans. We are not talking about the problem or trying to find > > >>ways > > >>to avoid extinsion. At this point in time we have no way of avoiding > > >>extinsion. Maybe not in the near future and we still have time to >change > > >>the inevitable but at this juncture in time one has to definately say >that > > >>unless we work to finding a solution the deadly crash of our >civilization > > >>is inevitable. > > >>Yours truly > > >>John Wilson > > >>*** > > >>Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve > > >>Goldens > > >>Ph-Fax (902)665-2386) > > >>Web: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm > > >> Pups: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm > > >> Politics: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm > > >> > > >>In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 >PM . > > >>After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone. > > >> > > >>Not anymore! Smoke freedom day 6 th December 2006 > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
>Hey Fred...the statement to which you refer says nothing about what kind of >earth the meek would inherit. In fact, the meek being the meek (ie >"enduring injury with patience and without resentment...deficient in spirit >and courage...not violent or strong") are probably quite happy being >screwed. IMHO, unless you have an ulterior motive to screwing the meek >generally or maybe a particular meek, I say find another choir. Mike DuPree >PS Earth First anyone Some take the bible For what it's worth When it says that the meek Shall inherit the Earth Well, I heard that some sheik Has bought New Jersey last week 'N you suckers ain't gettin' nothin' Is Hare Rama really wrong If you wander around With a napkin on With a bell on a stick An' your hair is all gone . . . (The geek shall inherit nothin') You say yer life's a bum deal 'N yer up against the wall . . . Well, people, you ain't even got no kinda Deal at all 'Cause what they do In Washington They just takes care of NUMBER ONE An' NUMBER ONE ain't YOU You ain't even NUMBER TWO Those Jesus Freaks Well, they're friendly but The shit they believe Has got their minds all shut An' they don't even care When the church takes a cut Ain't it bleak when you got so much nothin' Frank Zappa: The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing from "You Are What You Is". >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Fred Oliff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:40 AM >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? > > > > "screw the meek", they have had over 2000 years to do something and have > > not, doth quote the Onion > > > > > >>From: "John Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>To: > >>Subject: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? > >>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:36:57 -0400 > >> > >>Amazing! It was fortold over two thousand years ago that "The meek shall > >>inherit the earth." Mankind and all higher life forms are on a collision > >>course with extinsion. At the time of the last ice age when the sun > >>eventually fails to put out enough energy to subtain life the only life > >>left on earth will be single cell organism living in vents underneath > >>frozen oceans. We are not talking about the problem or trying to find > >>ways > >>to avoid extinsion. At this point in time we have no way of avoiding > >>extinsion. Maybe not in the near future and we still have time to change > >>the inevitable but at this juncture in time one has to definately say that > >>unless we work to finding a solution the deadly crash of our civilization > >>is inevitable. > >>Yours truly > >>John Wilson > >>*** > >>Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve > >>Goldens > >>Ph-Fax (902)665-2386) > >>Web: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm > >> Pups: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm > >> Politics: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm > >> > >>In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM . > >>After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone. > >> > >>Not anymore! Smoke freedom day 6 th December 2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
Hey Fred...the statement to which you refer says nothing about what kind of earth the meek would inherit. In fact, the meek being the meek (ie "enduring injury with patience and without resentment...deficient in spirit and courage...not violent or strong") are probably quite happy being screwed. IMHO, unless you have an ulterior motive to screwing the meek generally or maybe a particular meek, I say find another choir. Mike DuPree PS Earth First anyone - Original Message - From: "Fred Oliff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? > "screw the meek", they have had over 2000 years to do something and have > not, doth quote the Onion > > >>From: "John Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>To: >>Subject: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? >>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:36:57 -0400 >> >>Amazing! It was fortold over two thousand years ago that "The meek shall >>inherit the earth." Mankind and all higher life forms are on a collision >>course with extinsion. At the time of the last ice age when the sun >>eventually fails to put out enough energy to subtain life the only life >>left on earth will be single cell organism living in vents underneath >>frozen oceans. We are not talking about the problem or trying to find >>ways >>to avoid extinsion. At this point in time we have no way of avoiding >>extinsion. Maybe not in the near future and we still have time to change >>the inevitable but at this juncture in time one has to definately say that >>unless we work to finding a solution the deadly crash of our civilization >>is inevitable. >>Yours truly >>John Wilson >>*** >>Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve >>Goldens >>Ph-Fax (902)665-2386) >>Web: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm >> Pups: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm >> Politics: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm >> >>In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM . >>After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone. >> >>Not anymore! Smoke freedom day 6 th December 2006 >>^ > > >>___ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
"screw the meek", they have had over 2000 years to do something and have not, doth quote the Onion >From: "John Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org >To: >Subject: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:36:57 -0400 > >Amazing! It was fortold over two thousand years ago that "The meek shall >inherit the earth." Mankind and all higher life forms are on a collision >course with extinsion. At the time of the last ice age when the sun >eventually fails to put out enough energy to subtain life the only life >left on earth will be single cell organism living in vents underneath >frozen oceans. We are not talking about the problem or trying to find ways >to avoid extinsion. At this point in time we have no way of avoiding >extinsion. Maybe not in the near future and we still have time to change >the inevitable but at this juncture in time one has to definately say that >unless we work to finding a solution the deadly crash of our civilization >is inevitable. >Yours truly >John Wilson >*** >Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve >Goldens >Ph-Fax (902)665-2386) >Web: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm > Pups: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm > Politics: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm > >In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM . >After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone. > >Not anymore! Smoke freedom day 6 th December 2006 >^ >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
Hi John ; > At the time of the last ice age when the > sun eventually fails to put out enough energy to > subtain life the only life left on earth will be > single cell organism living in vents underneath > frozen oceans. Yes got your point, but I would just say that before the last ice age, when the hydrogen fuel that powers the sun begins to run out, the sun will expand and become a red giant. When that happens the oceans will boil away and the earth will be engulfed in flames. So we better have figured out what to do before then (about 4 billion years from now)! BR Peter G. Thailand Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
Amazing! It was fortold over two thousand years ago that "The meek shall inherit the earth." Mankind and all higher life forms are on a collision course with extinsion. At the time of the last ice age when the sun eventually fails to put out enough energy to subtain life the only life left on earth will be single cell organism living in vents underneath frozen oceans. We are not talking about the problem or trying to find ways to avoid extinsion. At this point in time we have no way of avoiding extinsion. Maybe not in the near future and we still have time to change the inevitable but at this juncture in time one has to definately say that unless we work to finding a solution the deadly crash of our civilization is inevitable. Yours truly John Wilson *** Wilsonia Farm Kennel Preserve Goldens Ph-Fax (902)665-2386) Web: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/new.htm Pups: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/pup.htm Politics: http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/goldens/elect.htm In Nova Scotia smoking permitted in designated areas only until 9:00 PM . After 9:00 it is okey to kill everyone. Not anymore! Smoke freedom day 6 th December 2006 ^___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable?
http://www.alternet.org/stories/47963/ AlterNet: Is the Deadly Crash of Our Civilization Inevitable? By Terrence McNally, AlterNet. Posted February 13, 2007. An interview with author Thomas Homer-Dixon about the social, political, economic and technological crises we face and how long we can sustain the lifestyle that brought them about. Humankind is doing more things, faster, across a greater space than ever before, producing changes of a size and speed never seen before. Thomas Homer-Dixon compares our current situation to driving too fast along a country road in a dense fog. Some ignore the fog and keep their foot pressed on the accelerator, but most of us feel like fairly helpless passengers on this wild ride. In 1870, the average income in the world's richest country was about nine times greater than that in the world's poorest country. By 1990 it was forty-five times greater. In 2006, the world's 793 billionaires held combined wealth of $2.6 trillion. (If liquidated in 2006), this wealth could have hired the poorest half of the world's workers -- the 1.4 billion workers who earn a few dollars a day -- for almost two years. Between 1977 and 1996, the weight of the average American cheeseburger grew over 25 percent, and the volume of the average soft drink grew more than 50 percent. About 40 percent of the world's population now lacks sufficient water for basic sanitation and hygiene, and nearly one out of every five people does not have enough to drink. Between 2000 and the beginning of 2005, China's daily oil imports soared 140 percent. Saudi Arabia, has pumped a total of 46 billion barrels of oil in the past 17 years, without admitting to any decrease in its stated reserve figure of about 260 billion barrels. Since 1950, industrialized fishing has reduced the total mass of large fish in the world's oceans by 90 percent. The atmosphere's level of carbon dioxide is the highest in 650,000 years. Is a deadly crash inevitable? Thomas Homer-Dixon is director of the Trudeau Centre for the Study of Peace and Conflict at the University of Toronto. He is the author of "The Ingenuity Gap" and his newest book "The Upside of Down: Catastrophe, Creativity, and the Renewal of Civilization." Terrence McNally: What are the biggest questions driving you right now? Thomas Homer-Dixon: I have a 20-month-old son, and I'm concerned about the future for him. I'm trying to figure out what might happen and how we can make it better. It's unlikely that the future is going to be a linear extrapolation of the present, but I've pretty well arrived at the conclusion that the diversity and power of the stresses that we're encountering are going to cause some major volatility. I expect social, political, economic and technological crises and breakdowns. It's hard to say what they're going to look like, but the probability of some major problems developing is rising. So how are we going to respond in times of crisis? In the book I introduce the metaphor of earthquakes. I talk about tectonic stresses building up under the surface of our societies and of global society. Now this is something that Californians are very familiar with. Everybody in the state knows that there are mighty tectonic plates pressing together along the San Andreas Fault, among others. Potential energy builds up, and at some point it's released in earthquakes that can have devastating consequences. And I think the same is at least metaphorically true for our world. Stresses are building, and at some point I expect there will be a release of pressure because our institutions and our adaptive capability will be overloaded. We just won't be able to cope. TMN: You point out that it's not linear, and it isn't any one thing that's going to do it. It's the combination and interaction. In his book Collapse, Jared Diamond puts forth five factors that have led to collapse -- human environmental impacts, climate change, the behavior of your enemies, the behavior of your friends and how you respond. What are the converging stresses you see? THD: Demographic, energy, environmental change, especially scarcity of water, shortages of cropland and forest in poor countries, climate, and then finally widening gaps between rich and poor people around the world. You touched on something a moment ago that's very important. The real problem is that they're all happening together. We've learned in recent decades that revolution or societal collapse tends to happen when societies are stressed from multiple directions simultaneously. Any one of the problems we face could be a major challenge for human society, but we have things going in the wrong direction in five different ways at the same time. Millions around the world are in a situation of severe water scarcity. That's already having major economic impacts, causing poverty and dislocation, and undermining institutions. Add climate change and the problem b
