Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars
I agree with Kurt. The problem with the usual approach of seeking increasingly rarefied efficiency in technologies on the border of fantasy is that it is fundamentally incompatable with fewness. Those technologies are part of a technical/economic complex which requires precisely an incessant redoubling of scope in order to continue to exist. The answer lies in dismantling that complex, not in entrenching it even further. In practice that means rendering it redundant. -Dawie - Original Message From: Terry Dyck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, 12 January, 2008 11:57:54 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars Hi Kurt, Maybe having fewer cars will help our environment but why not take that a big step forward and have both fewer cars and non polluting cars? Also, why not have non polluting trucks, trains and ships? Just working on one commitment is not enough. Only conservation or only carbon free transportation is not enough to drastically reduce global warming. We need to do both. ... __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail - a smarter inbox http://uk.mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars *#
Hi All, As one can guess, there has been quite a deluge of coverage in the media around here (in India) about the new Tata Nano. There seems little doubt that millions of these cute little bugs will be on the road in the next 2-3 years (unless a tough-to-fix major snag surfaces, which seems somewhat unlikely). The effective price might creep up a little in future by keeping the market supply of base versions low and selling more of the "luxury" versions, etc. Prices of other "small" cars in the market will also have to drop a little to stay competitive. All put together, it is widely believed that the appearance of the Tata Nano will surely cause a much larger number of the so-called middle and lower middle income group (who presently use two wheeler scooters and motorbikes and public transport) to switch to small cars (whether the Tata Nano or some other) than if the Tata Nano didn't happen. I see a gleeful estimate in a financial newspaper today that 30% more Indian families than before are likely to own cars as a result of the Nano. Wait a minute! Get that right. It's not 30% of the Indian population, 80% of the people live on $2 a day according to statistics, we aren't talking about them, you see. It's 30% of the people who could afford a car even before the Nano. There are many practical reasons why small affordable cars are attractive to a lot of people around here. The entire industry and the govt are putting all their might behind boosting people's consumption in all spheres anyway (completely ignoring sustainability issues, as usual, because as we all know from the wonderful examples of the western world, more consumption means more "development"). Hard to ignore round-the-clock battering of car ads on tv. And there are practical reasons as well, in many parts of the country, it rains heavily or sporadically during 4-8 months of the year, and there's scorching sun during another 4, so the attraction of a covered carriage instead of a two-wheeler as personal conveyance for low-income people in a hurry to make the best out of a booming economy is obvious. Environmentalists have not so far been very vocal on the Tata Nano and its impact except one or two isolated statements (such as this critical one by Pachauri http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/dec/17car.htm that received a lot of press). One reason for the low key attention the Nano has received from Indian environmentalists could be the stealth mode that the Tatas managed to maintain during the development phase. Very little information about the exact specs or emission ratings are available even now after the launch except for high level statements that it would be compliant with all emission and safety standards. I suppose a pretty obvious general counterbalance measure to the boom in the Indian auto industry will be to significantly increase the taxes on all cars and use the revenue to incentivize the use of public transport, bicycles, and walking. There is no place on the city roads to drive anyway, a 10 km drive through any large city routinely takes 60-90 minutes. But who's bothered about that in this time of "growth" and "development"? One simple example. There are hundreds of fly-overs being constructed in all the big cities around the country to ease the traffic congestion at major road junctions. I'm yet to see one which has made sidewalk provisions for pedestrians to walk on them. It seems the designers somehow "forgot" the pedestrians, even though there are more people on foot out there at any instant than are in cars, boom or no boom. "Forgot" the pedestrians?! It's pretty amusing (if it wasn't so depressing) to see today's newspaper with the front page full of glorification of the Tata Nano and in the inside pages a news item about the traffic cops in a big city mulling the idea of enforcing alternate day use of cars (odd number plates on odd dates, even on even) and hiking the parking fees manifold to cope with the traffic congestion crisis. Time to go get your second car with a different oddity number plate! And don't ever park. Since you can employ a full-time driver for a pittance, ask him to keep driving in circles around the block while you finish your shopping at the new jazzy big retail store, that's cheaper than parking. LOL? No, seriously! I myself know people who commit this horror routinely, and I don't know a lot of people in a city of 7 million. No wonder not just the parking lots, even the roads around the new big retail stores are full of cars all the time. One columnist even wrote that condemning the low priced Tata Nano because of the additional pollution these cars would add to the environment was 'elitist' and 'hypocritical' because the rich, the high income, and the upper middle income group folks who already drove cars didn't want the common man to have a car. Therefore we must promote the Nano and fight pollution at the s
Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars
Hi Kurt, Maybe having fewer cars will help our environment but why not take that a big step forward and have both fewer cars and non polluting cars? Also, why not have non polluting trucks, trains and ships? Just working on one commitment is not enough. Only conservation or only carbon free transportation is not enough to drastically reduce global warming. We need to do both. Terry Dyck> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:05:40 -0500> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars> > Kirk McLoren wrote:> > The ZENN (zero emissions no noise) car. Video, 10 min> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c> > > > I respectfully beg to differ. We need -fewer- cars, rather than more or > equivalent numbers of quiet cars.> > -Kurt> > ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Read what Santa`s been up to! For all the latest, visit asksantaclaus.spaces.live.com! http://asksantaclaus.spaces.live.com/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080112/9a8c87c7/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars *#
Yes those cheap indian cars will increase pollution somewhat, because the target buyer is people who now use motorbikes or bikes. Smog might actually be less than with motorbikes if they are replacing two cycle bikes, but CO2 is pretty certain to increase (as it also will with higher horsepower engines that he seems to favor, oddly). And even a small car is alot bigger than a motorbike or bike, so traffic congestion is likely to get worse too. However... the rest of his statements only serve to show his own ignorance about how the rest of the world lives. Perhaps he'd like to try an annual income of $3,000? Or $300? Z On Jan 11, 2008 5:03 PM, Fritz Friesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all, > there was a radioshow on CBC 1 on thursday afternoon talking about the new > lowcost car from India!Cost here in Canada approx.2 300$can.So this stupid > announcer said: People who can not afford a more expensive car should walk or > take public transport! > What a qualifiing statement (for his very own intelligence) > And he went on whit statments that can Cars should have much more than a 30HP > or so engine,you need more power on the road! > Well my first car ,a LLoyd Alexander TS had a full 17HP and run top 125Kmh! > And further the guy went... we dont need those cheep cars the gonne > excellerate the pollution level ! > Fritz > > - Original Message - > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:51 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars *# > > > Dear Kirk, > >I don't know whether this particular model is for > me, but I am sure there will be many competitors over the next > decade. > >The Zenn folks are to be congratulated. I think the U.S. balance of > payments deficit would improve over time if we were to > import large numbers of Zenns and less gasoline/diesel/crude. > >I think we need to be concerned with battery safety > and the mine-to-landfill environmental impacts of the batteries. > >In my case, the electricity would come from wind > and small hydro when parked at home; so I welcome the age of the electric > car. > > Regards, > > Wendell > > >From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Date: 2008/01/11 Fri AM 01:57:22 CST > >To: biofuel > >Subject: [Biofuel] We need these cars > > > > > The ZENN (zero emissions no noise) car. Video, 10 min > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c > > > > > > > >- > >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it > now. > >-- next part -- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080110/58248af2/attachment.html > >___ > >Biofuel mailing list > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 > messages): > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080111/f695cb01/attachment.html > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars *#
Hi all, there was a radioshow on CBC 1 on thursday afternoon talking about the new lowcost car from India!Cost here in Canada approx.2 300$can.So this stupid announcer said: People who can not afford a more expensive car should walk or take public transport! What a qualifiing statement (for his very own intelligence) And he went on whit statments that can Cars should have much more than a 30HP or so engine,you need more power on the road! Well my first car ,a LLoyd Alexander TS had a full 17HP and run top 125Kmh! And further the guy went... we dont need those cheep cars the gonne excellerate the pollution level ! Fritz - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars *# Dear Kirk, I don't know whether this particular model is for me, but I am sure there will be many competitors over the next decade. The Zenn folks are to be congratulated. I think the U.S. balance of payments deficit would improve over time if we were to import large numbers of Zenns and less gasoline/diesel/crude. I think we need to be concerned with battery safety and the mine-to-landfill environmental impacts of the batteries. In my case, the electricity would come from wind and small hydro when parked at home; so I welcome the age of the electric car. Regards, Wendell >From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/01/11 Fri AM 01:57:22 CST >To: biofuel >Subject: [Biofuel] We need these cars > > The ZENN (zero emissions no noise) car. Video, 10 min >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c > > > >- >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. >-- next part -- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080110/58248af2/attachment.html >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080111/f695cb01/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars *#
Dear Kirk, I don't know whether this particular model is for me, but I am sure there will be many competitors over the next decade. The Zenn folks are to be congratulated. I think the U.S. balance of payments deficit would improve over time if we were to import large numbers of Zenns and less gasoline/diesel/crude. I think we need to be concerned with battery safety and the mine-to-landfill environmental impacts of the batteries. In my case, the electricity would come from wind and small hydro when parked at home; so I welcome the age of the electric car. Regards, Wendell >From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: 2008/01/11 Fri AM 01:57:22 CST >To: biofuel >Subject: [Biofuel] We need these cars > > The ZENN (zero emissions no noise) car. Video, 10 min >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c > > > >- >Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. >-- next part -- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080110/58248af2/attachment.html >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We need these cars
Kirk McLoren wrote: > The ZENN (zero emissions no noise) car. Video, 10 min > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c > I respectfully beg to differ. We need -fewer- cars, rather than more or equivalent numbers of quiet cars. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] We need these cars
The ZENN (zero emissions no noise) car. Video, 10 min http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080110/58248af2/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
