Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[bob allen]

Howdy Bob,

Bob Molloy wrote:
> A bit late to come into this thread but I found it intriguing enough to 
> mention Jared Diamond's excellent book, "Guns, Germs and Steel",  on 
> just this topic. The sub-title is "A Short History of Everybody for the 
> last 13,000 Years". Diamond is an interesting character, formerly Prof. 
> of Physiology at UCLA Medical School he later made major contributions 
> to ecology and the study of evolutionary biology and is currently Prof. 
> of Geography and Environmental Health Sciences at UCLA.
> He addresses the question of why certain populations appear to achieve 
> while others don't, including the very pertinent point that the 
> term "achievement" is value loaded.   
> It would be nonsensical to attempt a synopsis of his book in a sentence 
> or two but he builds a good case for the determinants of achievement in 
> terms of climate, soil conditions, availability of water, fauna and 
> flora plus a few accidents of history and sheer bad luck such as the 
> thriving colony of early Norsemen in Greenland who got wiped out by a 
> mini Ice Age that nobody saw coming,

It was more than bad luck, as Diamond pointed out in his next book 
"Collapse"  The failure of the Norse society on Greenland was due not 
only to climatic cooling but more so due to failure to adapt.  The 
native Inuit survived just fine during this period, but the Norse 
refused to change their ways- and were thus doomed.



and the Australian aborigines who
> got stuck for 40,000 years in an environment trap.   
> First published in 1997 the book is available at Amazon in second-hand 
> paperback for a dollar or two. It may not change your life but it will 
> certainly alter your view  of how we got from there to here.
>  
> Regards,
> Bob
>  
> - Original Message -
> 
> *From:* Michael Redler <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:34 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway
> 
> "Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a
> collective thing, not really individual."
>  
> That reminds me of Max Weber's */The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit
> of Capitalism/*. I started on it but was distracted. From what I
> read, It seems worth mentioning in this thread.
>  
> - Redler
> 
> */Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>/*
> wrote:
> 
> A warm bath hath charms to soothe the savage list member ;-)
> For you, Don Kemple, remember: Incomprehesibility is a gift,
> son, use it
> wisely.
> "A Nation of Shopkeepers, all selling local-produced goods?"
> Forgive
> me, my Schumacher is pretty rusty.
> 
> Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but
> this is a
> collective thing, not really individual.
> 
> But I think that we are now at a stage where, under the
> leadership of
> GW, we're mouthing "all nations are equal," but, we're just
> equalerer
> than the other equal ones.
> 4 legs good, 2 legs bad.
> 4 legs good, 2 legs bad.
> 4 legs good, 2 legs bad.
> 
> 
> Mike Redler wrote:
> 
>  > Kind sir,
>  >
>  > Thank your for your gratitude. However, I find myself
> entirely outdone
>  > by your short but profound response. I shall now follow the
> advice of
>  > my esteemed virtual colleague, Mr. Weaver and retire to the
> loo for a
>  > bath.
>  >
>  > Ta ta,
>  >
>  > - Redler
>  >
>  > Martin Kemple wrote:
>  >
>  >> Thanks Mike!
>  >> Intriguing perspective.
>  >>
>  >> Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners')
> proclivity
>  >> for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on
> the one
>  >> extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate
>  >> "predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to
> escape from.
>  >> Adam Smith / E.F. Schumacher - two sides of the came coin?
>  >> Know what I mean?
>  >> That is: Not only are we moderns "different", we're more
> different
>  >> tha

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Bob Molloy]

A bit late to come into this thread but I 
found it intriguing enough to mention Jared Diamond's excellent book, "Guns, 
Germs and Steel",  on just this topic. The sub-title is "A Short 
History of Everybody for the last 13,000 Years". Diamond is an interesting 
character, formerly Prof. of Physiology at UCLA Medical School he later made 
major contributions to ecology and the study of evolutionary biology and 
is currently Prof. of Geography and Environmental Health Sciences 
at UCLA. 
He addresses the question of why certain 
populations appear to achieve while others don't, including the 
very pertinent point that the term "achievement" is value loaded. 
  
It would be nonsensical to attempt a synopsis of 
his book in a sentence or two but he builds a good case for the 
determinants of achievement in terms of climate, soil conditions, 
availability of water, fauna and flora plus a few accidents of history 
and sheer bad luck such as the thriving colony of early Norsemen in Greenland 
who got wiped out by a mini Ice Age that nobody saw coming, and the 
Australian aborigines who got stuck for 40,000 years in an environment 
trap.   
First published in 1997 the book is 
available at Amazon in second-hand paperback for a dollar or two. It 
may not change your life but it will certainly alter your view  of how 
we got from there to here.
 
Regards,
Bob
 
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:34 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep 
  -was galloway
  
  "Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a 
  collective thing, not really individual."
   
  That reminds me of Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the 
  Spirit of Capitalism. I started on it but was distracted. 
  From what I read, It seems worth mentioning in this thread.
   
  - Redler
  Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  A 
warm bath hath charms to soothe the savage list member ;-)For you, Don 
Kemple, remember: Incomprehesibility is a gift, son, use it 
wisely."A Nation of Shopkeepers, all selling local-produced goods?" 
Forgive me, my Schumacher is pretty rusty.Yes, a Calivinist 
nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a collective thing, 
not really individual.But I think that we are now at a stage where, 
under the leadership of GW, we're mouthing "all nations are equal," but, 
we're just equalerer than the other equal ones.4 legs good, 2 legs 
bad.4 legs good, 2 legs bad.4 legs good, 2 legs bad.Mike 
Redler wrote:> Kind sir,>> Thank your for your 
gratitude. However, I find myself entirely outdone > by your short 
but profound response. I shall now follow the advice of > my esteemed 
virtual colleague, Mr. Weaver and retire to the loo for a > 
bath.>> Ta ta,>> - Redler>> Martin 
Kemple wrote:>>> Thanks Mike!>> Intriguing 
perspective.>>>> Though I'm preternaturally suspicious 
of our (Westerners') proclivity >> for exceptionalism (from the 
creed of Manifest Destiny on the one >> extreme, to its opposite - 
that we're inveterate >> "predator-imperialists," on the other), 
it's a hard box to escape from.>> Adam Smith / E.F. Schumacher - 
two sides of the came coin?>> Know what I mean?>> That 
is: Not only are we moderns "different", we're more different >> 
than anybody else has ever been.>> What's up with 
that?>> I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it. Like a 
dark magnet : o>> 
-MK>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 22, 
2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote:>>>> 
Martin,>> >> Necessity can be broadly defined by what is 
popularly needed in a>> civilization. Since "Necessity is the 
Mother of invention", it>> stands to reason that the path to any 
invention is paved by the>> civilization from which it 
came.>> >> The civilizations you mentioned were content 
with technical>> developments that required only what was 
immediately available to>> them from their environment. In my 
opinion that's something which>> our ambitious culture hasn't yet 
been able to appreciate.>> >> As E. F. Schuhmacher 
explained so effectively in his writing, the>> so called "modern 
world" and it's technology has often taken us>> in directions 
which does more harm than good.>> >> It's presumptuous 
to quantify the progress of civilization by a>> hand full of great 
inventors and assume that they have made the>

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

"Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a collective thing, not really individual."     That reminds me of Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. I started on it but was distracted. From what I read, It seems worth mentioning in this thread.     - Redler  Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  A warm bath hath charms to soothe the savage list member ;-)For you, Don Kemple, remember: Incomprehesibility is a gift, son, use it wisely."A Nation of Shopkeepers, all selling local-produced goods?" Forgive me, my Schumacher is pretty rusty.Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a collective thing, not really individual.But I
 think that we are now at a stage where, under the leadership of GW, we're mouthing "all nations are equal," but, we're just equalerer than the other equal ones.4 legs good, 2 legs bad.4 legs good, 2 legs bad.4 legs good, 2 legs bad.Mike Redler wrote:> Kind sir,>> Thank your for your gratitude. However, I find myself entirely outdone > by your short but profound response. I shall now follow the advice of > my esteemed virtual colleague, Mr. Weaver and retire to the loo for a > bath.>> Ta ta,>> - Redler>> Martin Kemple wrote:>>> Thanks Mike!>> Intriguing perspective. Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners') proclivity >> for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on the one >> extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate >>
 "predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to escape from.>> Adam Smith / E.F. Schumacher - two sides of the came coin?>> Know what I mean?>> That is: Not only are we moderns "different", we're more different >> than anybody else has ever been.>> What's up with that?>> I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it. Like a dark magnet : o>> -MK>> On Aug 22, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote: Martin,>> >> Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a>> civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it>> stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the>> civilization from which it came.>> >> The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical>> developments that required
 only what was immediately available to>> them from their environment. In my opinion that's something which>> our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.>> >> As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the>> so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us>> in directions which does more harm than good.>> >> It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a>> hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the>> world a better place. I say this as someone who has two>> engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a>> research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.>> >> I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who>> have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in>> perspective, one needs to ask if the work of
 particular>> inventors are a measure of progress in a civilization>> (irrespective of politics):>> >> Could any of these people have been able to do what they did>> without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from>> which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was>> beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity?>> >> Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad>> range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not>> made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as>> much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal,>> Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every>> day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which>> he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came>>
 before him.>> >> I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves>> with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you>> can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the>> Wright Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged those>> who used their inventions and examined the inventor's>> justification for it's development.>> >> If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:>> >> If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the>> modern world", who would get the credit?>> >> Similar questions include:>> >> How high is up?>> >> How dark is gray?>> >> -Redler>>  */Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Question:>> Why didn't most
 Native Americans, for example, master the>> wheel for>> transportation on their own?>> Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal>> combustion much>> earlier than the opportunists who did?>> And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity>> much sooner>> than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?>> In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then>> 

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Mike Weaver]

A warm bath hath charms to soothe the savage list member ;-)
For you, Don Kemple, remember: Incomprehesibility is a gift, son, use it 
wisely.
"A Nation of Shopkeepers, all selling local-produced goods?"  Forgive 
me, my Schumacher is pretty rusty.

Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a 
collective thing, not really individual.

But I think that we are now at a stage where, under the leadership of 
GW, we're mouthing "all nations are equal," but, we're just equalerer 
than the other equal ones.
4 legs good, 2 legs bad.
4 legs good, 2 legs bad.
4 legs good, 2 legs bad.


Mike Redler wrote:

> Kind sir,
>
> Thank your for your gratitude. However, I find myself entirely outdone 
> by your short but profound response. I shall now follow the advice of 
> my esteemed virtual colleague, Mr. Weaver and retire to the loo for a 
> bath.
>
> Ta ta,
>
> - Redler
>
> Martin Kemple wrote:
>
>> Thanks Mike!
>> Intriguing perspective.
>>
>> Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners') proclivity 
>> for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on the one 
>> extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate 
>> "predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to escape from.
>> Adam Smith / E.F. Schumacher - two sides of the came coin?
>> Know what I mean?
>> That is: Not only are we moderns "different", we're more different 
>> than anybody else has ever been.
>> What's up with that?
>> I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it. Like a dark magnet : o
>> -MK
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote:
>>
>> Martin,
>>  
>> Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a
>> civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it
>> stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the
>> civilization from which it came.
>>  
>> The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical
>> developments that required only what was immediately available to
>> them from their environment. In my opinion that's something which
>> our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.
>>  
>> As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the
>> so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us
>> in directions which does more harm than good.
>>  
>> It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a
>> hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the
>> world a better place. I say this as someone who has two
>> engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a
>> research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.
>>  
>> I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who
>> have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in
>> perspective, one needs to ask if the work of particular
>> inventors are a measure of progress in a civilization
>> (irrespective of politics):
>>  
>> Could any of these people have been able to do what they did
>> without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from
>> which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was
>> beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity?
>>  
>> Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad
>> range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not
>> made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as
>> much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal,
>> Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every
>> day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which
>> he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came
>> before him.
>>  
>> I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves
>> with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you
>> can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the
>> Wright Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged those
>> who used their inventions and examined the inventor's
>> justification for it's development.
>>  
>> If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:
>>  
>> If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the
>> modern world", who would get the credit?
>>  
>> Similar questions include:
>>  
>> How high is up?
>>  
>> How dark is gray?
>>  
>> -Redler
>>  
>>
>> */Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>
>> Question:
>> Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the
>> wheel for
>> transportation on their own?
>> Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal
>> combustion much
>> earlier than the opportunists who did?
>> And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity
>> much so

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Mike Redler]

Kind sir,

Thank your for your gratitude. However, I find myself entirely outdone
by your short but profound response. I shall now follow the advice of
my esteemed virtual colleague, Mr. Weaver and retire to the loo for a
bath.

Ta ta,

- Redler

Martin Kemple wrote:
Thanks Mike!
  
Intriguing perspective.
  
  
Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners') proclivity
for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on the one
extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate
"predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to escape
from. 
Adam Smith / E.F. Schumacher - two sides of the came coin?
  
Know what I mean?
  
That is: Not only are we moderns "different", we're more different
than anybody else has ever been.
  
What's up with that?
  
I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it. Like a dark magnet :
o
  
-MK
  
  
  
  
  
On Aug 22, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote:
  
  
  Martin,

 

Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a
civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands
to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization
from which it came.

 

The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical
developments that required only what was immediately available to them
from their environment. In my opinion that's something which our
ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.

 

As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the so
called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in
directions which does more harm than good.

 

It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a hand
full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world a
better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees, a
patent of my own and a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in
Chemistry.

 

I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have
yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in perspective, one needs
to ask if the work of particular inventors are a measure of progress
in a civilization (irrespective of politics):

 

Could any of these people have been able to do what they did without
the work of their predecessors and the civilization from which they
came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their
control and grew from their own natural curiosity?

 

Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad
range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not made
the progress he did, without the work of people born (as much as four
hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc. Edison's
assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired by and
built upon every technology to which he was exposed, representative of
every inventor which came before him.

 

I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with
the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can't judge
people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Wright Brothers or
Richard Gatling until you've also judged those who used their
inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's
development.

 

If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:

 

If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the
modern world", who would get the credit?

 

Similar questions include:

 

How high is up?

 

How dark is gray?

 

-Redler

 


Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Question:
  
Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for 
transportation on their own?
  
Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much
  
earlier than the opportunists who did?
  
And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner
  
than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?
  
In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen
  
seemingly at once?
  
-Martin K.
  
  

  




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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Keith Addison]

>Thanks Mike!
>Intriguing perspective.
>
>Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners') 
>proclivity for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on 
>the one extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate 
>"predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to escape 
>from.
>Adam Smith / E.F.  Schumacher - two sides of the came coin?

More on the same side, IMO. See:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg34207.html
Re: [biofuel] The Wealth of Nature

>Know what I mean?
>That is:  Not only are we moderns "different", we're more different 
>than anybody else has ever been.
>What's up with that?

I don't think so. Probably the main thing that's different and 
unprecedented is, perhaps not so much the level of social control our 
lords and masters have achieved over us, or over the industrialised 
societies anyway, vast though it is, but the means of it. Previously 
such levels of control have used hard methods - slavery, tyranny - 
but this is soft control, soft enough for most people to continue 
believing that we live in democracies and have choices. Over the last 
35 years especially, the huge increase in the resources and effort 
put into the opinion manufacturing industry and the sheer amount of 
message management being delivered, along with its penetration into 
every aspect of life, is not just more of the same, it's something 
new and different, and extremely sinister, particularly because the 
victims are largely unaware it's happening to them, nor do they want 
to know. Kirk said this recently: "most of the population is 
hypnotized - I am not sure how you would deprogram them." Neither am 
I. We're becoming termite colonies, and our queen ants aren't nice 
guys.

Best

Keith


>I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it.  Like a dark 
>magnet   : o
>-MK
>
>
>
>
>On Aug 22, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote:
>
>>Martin,
>> 
>>Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a 
>>civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it 
>>stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the 
>>civilization from which it came.
>> 
>>The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical 
>>developments that required only what was immediately available to 
>>them from their environment. In my opinion that's something which 
>>our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.
>> 
>>As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the 
>>so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in 
>>directions which does more harm than good.
>> 
>>It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a 
>>hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the 
>>world  a better place. I say this as someone who has two 
>>engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a 
>>research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.
>> 
>>I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have 
>>yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in perspective, one 
>>needs to ask if the work of particular inventors are a measure of 
>>progress in a civilization (irrespective of politics):
>> 
>>Could any of these people have been able to do what they did 
>>without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from 
>>which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was 
>>beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity?
>> 
>>Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad 
>>range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not 
>>made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as much 
>>as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, 
>>etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was 
>>inspired by and built upon every technology to which he was 
>>exposed, representative of every inventor which came before him.
>> 
>>I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with 
>>the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can't judge 
>>people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Wright 
>>Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged those who used 
>>their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's 
>>development.
>> 
>>If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:
>> 
>>If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the 
>>modern world", who would get the credit?
>> 
>>Similar questions include:
>> 
>>How high is up?
>> 
>>How dark is gray?
>> 
>>-Redler
>> 
>>
>>Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Question:
>>>Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for
>>>transportation on their own?
>>>Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much
>>>earlier than the opportunists who did?
>>>And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner
>>>than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?
>>>In other words

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Martin Kemple]

Thanks Mike!
Intriguing perspective.

Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners') proclivity for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on the one extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate "predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to escape from.  
Adam Smith / E.F.  Schumacher - two sides of the came coin?
Know what I mean?
That is:  Not only are we moderns "different", we're more different than anybody else has ever been.
What's up with that?
I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it.  Like a dark magnet   : o
-MK




On Aug 22, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote:

Martin,
 
Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization from which it came.
 
The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical developments that required only what was immediately available to them from their environment. In my opinion that's something which our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.
 
As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in directions which does more harm than good.
 
It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world  a better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.
 
I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in perspective, one needs to ask if the work of particular inventors are a measure of progress in a civilization (irrespective of politics):
 
Could any of these people have been able to do what they did without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity?
 
Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came before him.
 
I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Wright Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged those who used their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's development.
 
If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:
 
If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the modern world", who would get the credit?
 
Similar questions include:
 
How high is up?
 
How dark is gray?
 
-Redler
 

Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Question:
Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for 
transportation on their own?
Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much
earlier than the opportunists who did?
And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner
than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?
In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen
seemingly at once?
-Martin K.

On Aug 21, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Kirk McLoren wrote:

> Political correctness is part of it I think.
> Tesla was a maverick and Edison a mainstream guy.
> When JP Morgan realized what Tesla was up to with his global wireless
> power scheme he pulled the rug out from under Tesla. Even though Tesla
> invented the induction motor he died poor and alone. I think another
> factor is are they foreign. Perhaps Bose ran afoul of that one. We
> used to make fun of the Russians because any invention of worth was
> credited to a Russian. I suspect we do the same thing. It is not
> apparent to someone within the culture as you hear no conflicting
> argument.
> I remember reading a citation once about a paper on the theory of 
> relativity. It was published by an Italian 2 years prior to Einsten
> (yes he was an immigrant - but- he was here). And as an amateur
> historian I know revisionism extends back through prehistory. Old
> anthro books have some fascinating archeology skipped by modern books.
> The giants excavated from the Ohio River mounds for example. Hundreds
> of skeletons shipped to the Smithsonian to disappear. Shades of 
> Indiana Jones.
>  
> I remember Bose by the way and saw photos of some of his apparatus. An
> original thinker. Brilliant person.
>  
> Kirk
>
> Joe Street wrote:
>> Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter waves

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Mike Weaver]

Oh.

I thought he meant you needed a bath...

Michael Redler wrote:

> I wasn't sure what you meant so...I looked it up.
>
> Main Entry: *wishy-washy*
> Pronunciation: 'wi-shE-"wo-shE, -"wä-
> Function: /adjective/
> Etymology: reduplication of /washy/
> *1* *:* lacking in character or determination *: INEFFECTUAL 
> * 
> *2* *:* lacking in strength or flavor *: WEAK 
> * 
> - *wishy-wash·i·ness* /noun/
>
> Nope...still don't know what you mean. Thanks just the same for the 
> complement about "fitting right in" though.
>
> Oh Can-ada
> da dee da da da da...
>
> I'm working on it...eh?
>  
> :-)
>  
> - Redler
>  
>  
> */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Hey Redler;
>
> You're all wishy washy. Despite your engineering degrees!  You
> should move to Canada.  You'd fit right in.
>
> J ;)
>
>
> Michael Redler wrote:
>
>> Martin,
>>  
>> Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a
>> civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it
>> stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the
>> civilization from which it came.
>>  
>> The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical
>> developments that required only what was immediately available to
>> them from their environment. In my opinion that's something which
>> our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.
>>  
>> As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the
>> so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us
>> in directions which does more harm than good.
>>  
>> It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a
>> hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the
>> world a better place. I say this as someone who has two
>> engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a
>> research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.
>>  
>> I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who
>> have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in
>> perspective, one needs to ask if the work of particular
>> inventors are a measure of progress in a civilization
>> (irrespective of politics):
>>  
>> Could any of these people have been able to do what they did
>> without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from
>> which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was
>> beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity?
>>  
>> Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad
>> range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not
>> made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as
>> much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal,
>> Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every
>> day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which
>> he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came
>> before him.
>>  
>> I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves
>> with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you
>> can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the
>> Wright Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged those
>> who used their inventions and examined the inventor's
>> justification for it's development.
>>  
>> If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:
>>  
>> If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the
>> modern world", who would get the credit?
>>  
>> Similar questions include:
>>  
>> How high is up?
>>  
>> How dark is gray?
>>  
>> -Redler
>>  
>>
>> */Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>
>> Question:
>> Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the
>> wheel for
>> transportation on their own?
>> Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal
>> combustion much
>> earlier than the opportunists who did?
>> And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity
>> much sooner
>> than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?
>> In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then
>> all happen
>> seemingly at once?
>> -Martin K.
>>  
>> [snip]
>>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

I wasn't sure what you meant so...I looked it up.Main Entry: wishy-washyPronunciation: 'wi-shE-"wo-shE, -"wä-Function: adjectiveEtymology: reduplication of washy1 : lacking in character or determination : INEFFECTUAL 2 : lacking in strength or flavor : WEAK  - wishy-wash·i·ness noun Nope...still don't know what you mean. Thanks just the same for the complement about "fitting right in" though.Oh Can-adada dee da da da da...I'm working on it...eh?     :-)     - Redler        Joe Street
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Hey Redler;You're all wishy washy. Despite your engineering degrees!  You should move to Canada.  You'd fit right in.J ;)Michael Redler wrote: Martin,     Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization from which it came.     The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical developments that required only what was immediately available to them from their environment. In my opinion that's something which our ambitious culture
 hasn't yet been able to appreciate.     As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in directions which does more harm than good.     It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world a better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.     I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in perspective, one needs to ask if the work of particular inventors are a measure of progress in a civilization (irrespective of politics):     Could any of these people have been able to do
 what they did without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity?     Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came before him.     I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Wright Brothers or
 Richard Gatling until you've also judged those who used their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's development.     If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:     If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the modern world", who would get the credit?     Similar questions include:     How high is up?     How dark is gray?     -Redler     Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Question:Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for transportation on their own?Why didn't
 the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much earlier than the opportunists who did?And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen seemingly at once?-Martin K.     [snip]___
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Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Kirk McLoren]

No roads. They knew of the wheel. I saw a toy in a museum. The romans impressed locals to carry their goods. A Roman soldier could impress a freeman for 3 miles. Then he had to switch. Not much wheels in that.     IC engines require a steel industry and China was constrained for hundreds of years by a ruling class that hammered down every nail that had the brass to stand up and do without official permission. Only the ruling class had anything and they are universally piggish and uninventive east or west.     The Arabs were our bootstrap out of the dark ages. Our ruling class was worse than Chinas- thought police of the one true faith. Only the ruling families and priesthood could read or write.     It all broke free with the crumbling of the institutions. We then went east and broke their institutions. Now we have a scientific priesthood that is running amuk with gene splicing and nucler
 materials. At least we are destroying our Sarin stockpile.     But we are silly creatures afraid of the dark and jealous of our brother.  Not so grandiose as we would have believed.     Kirk     Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Question:Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for transportation on their own?Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much earlier than the opportunists who did?And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen seemingly at once?-Martin K.On Aug 21, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Kirk McLoren
 wrote:> Political correctness is part of it I think.> Tesla was a maverick and Edison a mainstream guy.> When JP Morgan realized what Tesla was up to with his global wireless > power scheme he pulled the rug out from under Tesla. Even though Tesla > invented the induction motor he died poor and alone. I think another > factor is are they foreign. Perhaps Bose ran afoul of that one. We > used to make fun of the Russians because any invention of worth was > credited to a Russian. I suspect we do the same thing. It is not > apparent to someone within the culture as you hear no conflicting > argument.> I remember reading a citation once about a paper on the theory of > relativity. It was published by an Italian 2 years prior to Einsten > (yes he was an immigrant - but- he was here). And as an amateur > historian I know revisionism extends back through prehistory. Old
 > anthro books have some fascinating archeology skipped by modern books. > The giants excavated from the Ohio River mounds for example. Hundreds > of skeletons shipped to the Smithsonian to disappear. Shades of > Indiana Jones.>  > I remember Bose by the way and saw photos of some of his apparatus. An > original thinker. Brilliant person.>  > Kirk>> Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter waves ( >> 60 GHZ radio waves) back in the 1890's before Marconi and Otto >> Lilienthal was flying under control hundreds of times in the 1890's >> before the Wright Brothers..but history remembers only certain >> ones eh?  What's up with that? Joe Michael Redler wrote:>>> "Tesla invented the modern world far more
 than Edison or >>> Westinghouse or Marconi.">>>  >>> Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.>>>  >>> - Redler (average person) >>>  >> Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical. But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some  interesting comments were made that are valid. Remember these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at least  using the frame of reference of the man in the street. Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They may  surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler  concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address. As for
 Ramtha remember people dont want magic, they demand it. A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct. Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as well. Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented the  modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What  does the average person know though? We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.   Kirk Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:> Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the > producer of that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the > 'experts' that appeared in that movie to see what their peers have > to say about them if you
 want to have a good laugh.>> http://skepdic.com/channel.html>> Too funny!> Joe>> M&K DuPree wrote:>> Hi D...thank you.  Say, thank you too for alerting me way back >> when to the video What the Bleep Do We Know?  Outstanding.  Will >> be watching agai

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Joe Street]

Hey Redler;

You're all wishy washy. Despite your engineering degrees!  You should
move to Canada.  You'd fit right in.

J ;)


Michael Redler wrote:

  Martin,
   
  Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in
a civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands
to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization
from which it came.
   
  The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical
developments that required only what was immediately available to them
from their environment. In my opinion that's something which our
ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.
   
  As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing,
the so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in
directions which does more harm than good.
   
  It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a
hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world a
better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees, a
patent of my own and a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in
Chemistry.
   
  I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who
have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in perspective, one
needs to ask if the work of particular inventors are a measure of
progress in a civilization (irrespective of politics):
   
  Could any of these people have been able to do what they did
without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from which
they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their
control and grew from their own natural curiosity?
   
  Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a
broad range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not
made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as much as
four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc.
Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired
by and built upon every technology to which he was exposed,
representative of every inventor which came before him.
   
  I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves
with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you
can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Wright
Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged those who used
their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's
development.
   
  If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:
   
  If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the
modern world", who would get the credit?
   
  Similar questions include:
   
  How high is up?
   
  How dark is gray?
   
  -Redler
   
  
  Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
Question:
Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for 
transportation on their own?
Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much 
earlier than the opportunists who did?
And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner

than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?
In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen 
seemingly at once?
-Martin K.

On Aug 21, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Kirk McLoren wrote:

> Political correctness is part of it I think.
> Tesla was a maverick and Edison a mainstream guy.
> When JP Morgan realized what Tesla was up to with his global
wireless 
> power scheme he pulled the rug out from under Tesla. Even though
Tesla 
> invented the induction motor he died poor and alone. I think
another 
> factor is are they foreign. Perhaps Bose ran afoul of that one. We

> used to make fun of the Russians because any invention of worth
was 
> credited to a Russian. I suspect we do the same thing. It is not 
> apparent to someone within the culture as you hear no conflicting 
> argument.
> I remember reading a citation once about a paper on the theory of 
> relativity. It was published by an Italian 2 years prior to
Einsten 
> (yes he was an immigrant - but- he was here). And as an amateur 
> historian I know revisionism extends back through prehistory. Old 
> anthro books have some fascinating archeology skipped by modern
books. 
> The giants excavated from the Ohio River mounds for example.
Hundreds 
> of skeletons shipped to the Smithsonian to disappear. Shades of 
> Indiana Jones.
>  
> I remember Bose by the way and saw photos of some of his
apparatus. An 
> original thinker. Brilliant person.
>  
> Kirk
>
> Joe Street wrote:
>> Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter
waves ( 
>> 60 GHZ radio waves) back in the 1890's before Marconi and Otto

>> Lilienthal was flying under control hundreds of times in the
1890's 
>> before the Wright Brothers..but history remembers only
certain 
>> ones eh?  What's up with that?
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Michael Redler wrote:
>>> "Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or 
>>> Westinghouse or Marconi."

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

Martin,     Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization from which it came.     The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical developments that required only what was immediately available to them from their environment. In my opinion that's something which our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.     As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in directions which does more harm than good.     It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world
 a better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.     I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in perspective, one needs to ask if the work of particular inventors are a measure of progress in a civilization (irrespective of politics):     Could any of these people have been able to do what they did without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity?     Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not made the progress he did, without the
 work of people born (as much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came before him.     I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Wright Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged those who used their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's development.     If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:     If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the modern world", who would get the credit?     Similar questions include:
     How high is up?     How dark is gray?     -Redler     Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Question:Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for transportation on their own?Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much earlier than the opportunists who did?And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen seemingly at once?-Martin K.On Aug 21, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Kirk McLoren wrote:> Political correctness is part of it I think.> Tesla was a maverick and Edison a mainstream guy.> When
 JP Morgan realized what Tesla was up to with his global wireless > power scheme he pulled the rug out from under Tesla. Even though Tesla > invented the induction motor he died poor and alone. I think another > factor is are they foreign. Perhaps Bose ran afoul of that one. We > used to make fun of the Russians because any invention of worth was > credited to a Russian. I suspect we do the same thing. It is not > apparent to someone within the culture as you hear no conflicting > argument.> I remember reading a citation once about a paper on the theory of > relativity. It was published by an Italian 2 years prior to Einsten > (yes he was an immigrant - but- he was here). And as an amateur > historian I know revisionism extends back through prehistory. Old > anthro books have some fascinating archeology skipped by modern books. > The giants excavated from the Ohio River mounds
 for example. Hundreds > of skeletons shipped to the Smithsonian to disappear. Shades of > Indiana Jones.>  > I remember Bose by the way and saw photos of some of his apparatus. An > original thinker. Brilliant person.>  > Kirk>> Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter waves ( >> 60 GHZ radio waves) back in the 1890's before Marconi and Otto >> Lilienthal was flying under control hundreds of times in the 1890's >> before the Wright Brothers..but history remembers only certain >> ones eh?  What's up with that? Joe Michael Redler wrote:>>> "Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or >>> Westinghouse or Marconi.">>>  >>> Damn! I didn't even know the modern
 world was invented.>>>  >>> - Redler (average person) >>>  >> Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical. But I would not

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Mike Weaver]

Get it straight:
Benjamin Franklin invented electricity.
Henry Ford invented the car.
The Wright brothers invented airplanes.
Edison invented the phone.

-'Merika

Martin Kemple wrote:

> Question:
> Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for 
> transportation on their own?
> Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much 
> earlier than the opportunists who did?
> And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much 
> sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?
> In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen 
> seemingly at once?
> -Martin K.
>
> On Aug 21, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Kirk McLoren wrote:
>
> Political correctness is part of it I think.
> Tesla was a maverick and Edison a mainstream guy.
> When JP Morgan realized what Tesla was up to with his global
> wireless power scheme he pulled the rug out from under Tesla. Even
> though Tesla invented the induction motor he died poor and alone.
> I think another factor is are they foreign. Perhaps Bose ran afoul
> of that one. We used to make fun of the Russians because any
> invention of worth was credited to a Russian. I suspect we do the
> same thing. It is not apparent to someone within the culture as
> you hear no conflicting argument.
> I remember reading a citation once about a paper on the theory of
> relativity. It was published by an Italian 2 years prior to
> Einsten (yes he was an immigrant - but- he was here). And as an
> amateur historian I know revisionism extends back through
> prehistory. Old anthro books have some fascinating archeology
> skipped by modern books. The giants excavated from the Ohio River
> mounds for example. Hundreds of skeletons shipped to the
> Smithsonian to disappear. Shades of Indiana Jones.
>  
> I remember Bose by the way and saw photos of some of his
> apparatus. An original thinker. Brilliant person.
>  
> Kirk
>
> */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter
> waves ( 60 GHZ radio waves) back in the 1890's before Marconi
> and Otto Lilienthal was flying under control hundreds of times
> in the 1890's before the Wright Brothers..but history
> remembers only certain ones eh?  What's up with that?
>
> Joe
>
> Michael Redler wrote:
>
> "Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or
> Westinghouse or Marconi."
>  
> Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.
>  
> - Redler (average person) 
>  
>
> */Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite
> egotistical.
> But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand.
> Some interesting comments were made that are valid.
> Remember these people tried to explain the
> "unexplainable" at least using the frame of reference
> of the man in the street.
> Try explaining the federal reserve to the average
> person. They may surprise you with the difficulty they
> have with some far simpler concepts than what "bleep"
> was trying to address.
> As for Ramtha remember people dont want magic, they
> demand it.
> A successful club owner told me that. I think he is
> correct.
> Modern science is full of showmanship and
> misrepresentation as well.
> Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla
> invented the modern world far more than Edison or
> Westinghouse or Marconi. What does the average person
> know though?
> We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.
>  
> Kirk
>
> */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's
> dictionary about the producer of that movie.  Have
> a read and do a check on the 'experts' that
> appeared in that movie to see what their peers
> have to say about them if you want to have a good
> laugh.
>
> http://skepdic.com/channel.html
>
> Too funny!
> Joe
>
> M&K DuPree wrote:
>
> Hi D...thank you.  Say, thank you too for
> alerting me way back when to the video *What
> the Bleep Do We Know?*  Outstanding.  Will be
> watching again.  Mike
>
>  

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Martin Kemple]

Question:
Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for transportation on their own?
Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much earlier than the opportunists who did?
And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?
In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen seemingly at once?
-Martin K.

On Aug 21, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Kirk McLoren wrote:

Political correctness is part of it I think.
Tesla was a maverick and Edison a mainstream guy.
When JP Morgan realized what Tesla was up to with his global wireless power scheme he pulled the rug out from under Tesla. Even though Tesla invented the induction motor he died poor and alone. I think another factor is are they foreign. Perhaps Bose ran afoul of that one. We used to make fun of the Russians because any invention of worth was credited to a Russian. I suspect we do the same thing. It is not apparent to someone within the culture as you hear no conflicting argument.
I remember reading a citation once about a paper on the theory of relativity. It was published by an Italian 2 years prior to Einsten (yes he was an immigrant - but- he was here). And as an amateur historian I know revisionism extends back through prehistory. Old anthro books have some fascinating archeology skipped by modern books. The giants excavated from  the Ohio River mounds for example. Hundreds of skeletons shipped to the Smithsonian to disappear. Shades of Indiana Jones.
 
I remember Bose by the way and saw photos of some of his apparatus. An original thinker. Brilliant person.
 
Kirk

Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter waves ( 60 GHZ radio waves) back in the 1890's before Marconi and Otto Lilienthal was flying under control hundreds of times in the 1890's before the Wright Brothers..but history remembers only certain ones eh?  What's up with that?

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:
"Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi."
 
Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.
 
- Redler (average person) 
 

Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical.
But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some interesting comments were made that are valid.
Remember these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at least using the frame of reference of the man in the street.
Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They may surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address.
As for Ramtha remember people dont want magic, they demand it.
A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct.
Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as well.
Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What does the average person know though?
We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.
 
Kirk

Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the producer of that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the 'experts' that appeared in that movie to see what their peers have to say about them if you want to have a good laugh.

http://skepdic.com/channel.html

Too funny!
Joe

M&K DuPree wrote:
Hi D...thank you.  Say, thank you too for alerting me way back when to the video What the Bleep Do We Know?  Outstanding.  Will be watching again.  Mike
- Original Message -
From: D. Mindock 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can

 Mike,
See:  which has a blurb plus links.
Peace, D. Mindock
- Original Message -
From: M&K DuPree 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can

Let me also add this note.  I haven't checked the Pentagon site for this info.  Maybe someone else would care to research it and verify.  But here you. -- Mike DuPree
 
http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html 
 
40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted from military since 2000: report
<3zoom.gif> printResizeButton();  <1x1spacer.gif>     

Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the U.S. military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted Pentagon sources as saying Tuesday.
From the total, more than half had served in the U.S. Army, according to the report.
Anti-war organizations said that the mass desertions were due to the strong resistance to war which is more prevalent than the military has openly admitted.
"They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam about the amount of opposition to the war and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who represents Army Lt. Ehren Wata

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Kirk McLoren]

Political correctness is part of it I think.  Tesla was a maverick and Edison a mainstream guy.  When JP Morgan realized what Tesla was up to with his global wireless power scheme he pulled the rug out from under Tesla. Even though Tesla invented the induction motor he died poor and alone. I think another factor is are they foreign. Perhaps Bose ran afoul of that one. We used to make fun of the Russians because any invention of worth was credited to a Russian. I suspect we do the same thing. It is not apparent to someone within the culture as you hear no conflicting argument.  I remember reading a citation once about a paper on the theory of relativity. It was published by an Italian 2 years prior to Einsten (yes he was an immigrant - but- he was here). And as an amateur historian I know revisionism extends back through prehistory. Old anthro books have some fascinating archeology skipped by modern books. The giants excavated from
 the Ohio River mounds for example. Hundreds of skeletons shipped to the Smithsonian to disappear. Shades of Indiana Jones.     I remember Bose by the way and saw photos of some of his apparatus. An original thinker. Brilliant person.     KirkJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter waves ( 60 GHZ radio waves) back in the 1890's before Marconi and Otto Lilienthal was flying under control hundreds of times in the 1890's before the Wright Brothers..but history remembers only certain ones eh?  What's up with that? JoeMichael Redler wrote:"Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or
 Westinghouse or Marconi."     Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.     - Redler (average person)      Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical.  But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some interesting comments were made that are valid.  Remember these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at least using the frame of reference of the man in the street.  Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They may surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address. 
 As for Ramtha remember people dont want magic, they demand it.  A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct.  Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as well.  Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What does the average person know though?  We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.     KirkJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the producer of that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the 'experts' that appeared in that movie to see what their peers have to say about them if
 you want to have a good laugh.http://skepdic.com/channel.htmlToo funny!JoeM&K DuPree wrote:  Hi D...thank you.  Say, thank you too for alerting me way back when to the video What the Bleep Do We Know?  Outstanding.  Will be watching again.  Mike- Original Message -   From: D. Mindock   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can Mike,  See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1828245 which has a blurb plus links.  Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message -   From: M&K DuPree   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM  Subject: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou canLet me also add this note.  I haven't checked the Pentagon site for this info.  Maybe someone else would care to research it and verify.  But here you. -- Mike DuPree     http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html      40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted from military since 2000: report printResizeButton();        Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the U.S. military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted Pentagon sources as saying Tuesday.   From the total, more than half had served in the U.S. Army, according to the report.   Anti-war organizations said that the mass desertions were due to the strong resistance to war which is more prevalent than the military has openly admitted.   "They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam about the amount of opposition to the war and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who represents Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse to join his brigade when it was sent to Iraq last month. He is now under military custody in Fort Lewis, Washington.   A 2002 Army report said that desertion was fairly constant but "tends to worsen during wartime."   Source: Xinhua   [snip]  ___  Bi

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Joe Street]

Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter waves (
60 GHZ radio waves) back in the 1890's before Marconi and Otto
Lilienthal was flying under control hundreds of times in the 1890's
before the Wright Brothers..but history remembers only certain ones
eh?  What's up with that? 

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  "Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or
Westinghouse or Marconi."
   
  Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.
   
  - Redler (average person) 
   
  
  Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical.
But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some
interesting comments were made that are valid.
Remember these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at
least using the frame of reference of the man in the street.
Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They
may surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler
concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address.
As for Ramtha remember people dont want magic, they demand it.
A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct.
Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as
well.
Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented
the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What
does the average person know though?
We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.
 
Kirk

Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Here
is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the producer of
that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the 'experts' that appeared
in that movie to see what their peers have to say about them if you
want to have a good laugh.
  
  http://skepdic.com/channel.html
  
Too funny!
Joe
  
M&K DuPree wrote:
  


Hi D...thank you. 
Say, thank you too for alerting me way back when to the video What
the Bleep Do We Know?  Outstanding.  Will be watching again. 
Mike

  -
Original Message - 
  From:
  D. Mindock 
  To:
  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  
  Sent:
Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM
  Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can
  
  
   Mike,
  See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1828245 which has a blurb plus links.
  Peace, D. Mindock
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
M&K DuPree 
To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent:
Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject:
[Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can


Let me also add
this note.  I haven't checked the Pentagon site for this info.  Maybe
someone else would care to research it and verify.  But here you. --
Mike DuPree
 
http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html 
 


  

  40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted
from military since 2000: report


   printResizeButton();        


  
  
  Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the
U.S. military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted Pentagon
sources as saying Tuesday. 
  From the total, more than half had served in the
U.S. Army, according to the report. 
  Anti-war organizations said that the mass
desertions were due to the strong resistance to war which is more
prevalent than the military has openly admitted. 
  "They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam about the amount of opposition to the war
and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who represents
Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse to join
his brigade when it was sent to Iraq
last month. He is now under military custody in Fort Lewis, Washington.
  
  A 2002 Army report said that desertion was
fairly constant but "tends to worsen during wartime." 
  Source: Xinhua 
  
  

  


[snip]
  

  

  
  

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_

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Mike Weaver]

It's a date.  I'll be wearing a white sport coat and a pink carnation.

Wait, by *we* do mean I'm going out with you AND your mom?

And who's gonna pay?

Michael Redler wrote:

> You're cuisin' now Weaver!
>  
> Keep Mom out of it or else we'll have to settle things after school, 
> behind the gym.
>
> */Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Dear Pinkler,
>
> I never GPL's it, so it's mine.
>
> besides, you're on MY half of the seat! MOM!
>
> -Weaver
>
> Mike Redler wrote:
>
> >It doesn't matter Weaver! I'm sure it was invented so long ago
> that it's
> >expired and in the public domain by now. So, there's nothing you
> can do
> >about it!
> >
> >You're not the boss of me!
> >
> >Mike Weaver wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I invented it.
> >>
> >>So try not to piss me off.
> >>
> >>-Mike "Big Head" Weaver
> >>
> [snip]
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

You're cuisin' now Weaver!     Keep Mom out of it or else we'll have to settle things after school, behind the gym.Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Dear Pinkler,I never GPL's it, so it's mine.besides, you're on MY half of the seat! MOM!-WeaverMike Redler wrote:>It doesn't matter Weaver! I'm sure it was invented so long ago that it's >expired and in the public domain by now. So, there's nothing you can do >about it!>>You're not the boss of me!>>Mike Weaver wrote:> >>>I invented it.So try not to piss me off.-Mike "Big Head" Weaver>>[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Mike Weaver]

Dear Pinkler,

I never GPL's it, so it's mine.

besides, you're on MY half of the seat!  MOM!

-Weaver

Mike Redler wrote:

>It doesn't matter Weaver! I'm sure it was invented so long ago that it's 
>expired and in the public domain by now. So, there's nothing you can do 
>about it!
>
>You're not the boss of me!
>
>Mike Weaver wrote:
>  
>
>>I invented it.
>>
>>So try not to piss me off.
>>
>>-Mike "Big Head" Weaver
>>
>>Michael Redler wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>>"Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse 
>>>or Marconi."
>>> 
>>>Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.
>>> 
>>>- Redler (average person) 
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Mike Redler]

It doesn't matter Weaver! I'm sure it was invented so long ago that it's 
expired and in the public domain by now. So, there's nothing you can do 
about it!

You're not the boss of me!

Mike Weaver wrote:
> I invented it.
>
> So try not to piss me off.
>
> -Mike "Big Head" Weaver
>
> Michael Redler wrote:
>
>   
>> "Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse 
>> or Marconi."
>>  
>> Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.
>>  
>> - Redler (average person) 
>> 


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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Mike Weaver]

I invented it.

So try not to piss me off.

-Mike "Big Head" Weaver

Michael Redler wrote:

> "Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse 
> or Marconi."
>  
> Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.
>  
> - Redler (average person) 
>  
>
> */Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical.
> But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some
> interesting comments were made that are valid.
> Remember these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at
> least using the frame of reference of the man in the street.
> Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They may
> surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler
> concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address.
> As for Ramtha remember people dont want magic, they demand it.
> A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct.
> Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as well.
> Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented the
> modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What
> does the average person know though?
> We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.
>  
> Kirk
>
> */Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>
> Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about
> the producer of that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the
> 'experts' that appeared in that movie to see what their peers
> have to say about them if you want to have a good laugh.
>
> http://skepdic.com/channel.html
>
> Too funny!
> Joe
>
> M&K DuPree wrote:
>
>> Hi D...thank you.  Say, thank you too for alerting me way
>> back when to the video *What the Bleep Do We Know?* 
>> Outstanding.  Will be watching again.  Mike
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* D. Mindock 
>> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> 
>> *Sent:* Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View
>> it whileyou can
>>
>>  Mike,
>> See:
>> 
>> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1828245
>> 
>> 
>>  which
>> has a blurb plus links.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* M&K DuPree 
>> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM
>> *Subject:* [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _
>> Lebanon. View it whileyou can
>>
>> Let me also add this note.  I haven't checked the
>> Pentagon site for this info.  Maybe someone else
>> would care to research it and verify.  But here you.
>> -- Mike DuPree
>>  
>> 
>> http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html 
>>  
>> 40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted from military
>> since 2000: report
>> font size printResizeButton();  ZoomIn
>> Web Bug from
>> http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/images/spacer.gif 
>> ZoomOut
>> 
>>
>> Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the U.S.
>> military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted
>> Pentagon sources as saying Tuesday.
>> From the total, more than half had served in the U.S.
>> Army, according to the report.
>> Anti-war organizations said that the mass desertions
>> were due to the strong resistance to war which is
>> more prevalent than the military has openly admitted.
>> "They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam
>> 
>> about the amount of opposition to the war and they're
>> lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who
>> represents Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first
>> commissioned officer to refuse to join his brigade
>> when it was sent to Iraq
>> 
>> last month. He is now under military custody in Fort
>> Lewis, Washington.
>> A 2002 Army report said that desertion was fairly
>>

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Kirk McLoren]

If you are on this list odds are you are not average.  Average is the people I just did jury duty with.     KirkMichael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:"Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi."     Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.     - Redler (average person)      Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical.  But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some interesting comments were made that are valid.  Remember
 these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at least using the frame of reference of the man in the street.  Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They may surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address.  As for Ramtha remember people dont want magic, they demand it.  A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct.  Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as well.  Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What does the average person know though?  We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.     KirkJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the producer of that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the 'experts' that appeared in that movie to see what their peers have to say about them if you want to have a good laugh.http://skepdic.com/channel.htmlToo funny!JoeM&K DuPree wrote:  Hi D...thank you.  Say, thank you too for alerting me way back when to the video What the Bleep Do We Know?  Outstanding.  Will be watching again.  Mike- Original Message -   From: D. Mindock   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can Mike,  See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1828245 which has a blurb plus links.  Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message -   From: M&K DuPree   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM  Subject: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou canLet me also add this note.  I haven't checked the Pentagon site for this info.  Maybe someone else would care to research it and verify.  But here you. -- Mike DuPree     http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html      40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted from military since 2000: report printResizeButton();        Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the U.S. military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted Pentagon sources as saying Tuesday.   From the total, more than half had served in the U.S. Army, according to the report.   Anti-war organizations said that the mass desertions were due to the strong resistance to war which is more prevalent than the military has openly admitted.   "They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam about the amount of opposition to the war and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who
 represents Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse to join his brigade when it was sent to Iraq last month. He is now under military custody in Fort Lewis, Washington.   A 2002 Army report said that desertion was fairly constant but "tends to worsen during wartime."   Source: Xinhua   [snip]___Biofuel mailing
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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

"Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi."     Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.     - Redler (average person)      Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical.  But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some interesting comments were made that are valid.  Remember these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at least using the frame of reference of the man in the street.  Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They may surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address.  As for Ramtha
 remember people dont want magic, they demand it.  A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct.  Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as well.  Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What does the average person know though?  We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.     KirkJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the producer of that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the 'experts' that appeared in that movie to see what their peers have to say about them if you want to have a good laugh.http://skepdic.com/channel.htmlToo funny!JoeM&K DuPree wrote:  Hi D...thank you.  Say, thank you too for alerting me way back when to the video What the Bleep Do We Know?  Outstanding.  Will be watching again.  Mike- Original Message -   From: D. Mindock   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can Mike,  See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1828245 which has a blurb plus links.  Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message -   From: M&K DuPree   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM  Subject: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou canLet me also add this note.  I haven't checked the Pentagon site for this info.  Maybe someone else would care to research it and verify.  But here you. -- Mike DuPree     http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html      40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted from military since 2000: report printResizeButton();        Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the U.S. military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted Pentagon sources as saying Tuesday.   From the total, more than half had served in the U.S. Army, according to the report.   Anti-war organizations said that the mass desertions were due to the strong resistance to war which is more prevalent than the military has openly admitted.   "They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam about the amount of opposition to the war and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who represents Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse to join his brigade when it was sent to Iraq last month. He is now under military custody in Fort Lewis, Washington.   A 2002 Army report said that desertion was fairly constant but "tends to worsen during wartime."   Source: Xinhua   [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Kirk McLoren]

I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical.  But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some interesting comments were made that are valid.  Remember these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at least using the frame of reference of the man in the street.  Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They may surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address.  As for Ramtha remember people dont want magic, they demand it.  A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct.  Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as well.  Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What does the average person know though?  We arent a tenth as clever as we think we
 are.     KirkJoe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the producer of that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the 'experts' that appeared in that movie to see what their peers have to say about them if you want to have a good laugh.http://skepdic.com/channel.htmlToo funny!JoeM&K DuPree wrote:  Hi D...thank you.  Say, thank you too for alerting me way back when to the video What the Bleep Do We Know?  Outstanding. 
 Will be watching again.  Mike- Original Message -   From: D. Mindock   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can Mike,  See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1828245 which has a blurb plus links.  Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message -   From: M&K DuPree   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM  Subject: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou canLet me also add this note.  I haven't checked the Pentagon site for this info.  Maybe someone else would care to
 research it and verify.  But here you. -- Mike DuPree     http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html      40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted from military since 2000: report printResizeButton();        Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the U.S. military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted Pentagon sources as saying Tuesday.   From the total, more than half had served in the U.S. Army, according to the report.   Anti-war organizations said that the mass desertions were due to the strong resistance to war which is more prevalent than the military has openly admitted.   "They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam about the amount of opposition to the war and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who represents Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse to join his brigade when it was sent to Iraq last month. He is now under military custody in Fort Lewis, Washington.   A 2002 Army report said that desertion was fairly constant but "tends to worsen during wartime."   Source: Xinhua - Original Message -   From: Joe Street   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 12:15 PM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it while you can  Throughout my life, growing up, initially ignoring the news like most children, then paying more attention and then eventually learning of media control and being disgusted and so again ignoring, and then returning and watching it as a propaganda source and as an indicator of where
 control is being exercised has been a gradual process of unfolding for me.  But there through it all has been a voice I have often heard.  One of the quieter voices that sometimes gets a chance at the microphone but generally not, is the voice that keeps saying there are those who promote war.  War is needed. War is what sustains some element of the warped western society. That voice is ringing in my head now and I wonder where the next conflict will spring up.  It is true. I guess the situation in Iraq has turned into one where the US is spending more than it wants to and using too many of it's own weapons because it has to.  It only makes sense that a conflict needs to happen elsewhere where weapons need to be used up which are bought and paid for and replaced with new ones which are bought and paid for.  Where will the next cash cow be? Can anyone guess?JoeKirk McLoren wrote:It appears Bush has at least 3 motives for war.  1. OIL  2. support of radical right "Christianity" and their "end time" views thus their support of war.  3. Support of his allie Israel which wants his support for their expansionism. His father when director of CIA furthered this by CIA bankrolling Murdoch so he could purchase all the media which we see is now pro Israel.  News reporting is not what they do. CONsensus forming is what they do.  Basic

[Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Joe Street]

Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the
producer of that movie.  Have a read and do a check on the 'experts'
that appeared in that movie to see what their peers have to say about
them if you want to have a good laugh.

http://skepdic.com/channel.html

Too funny!
Joe

M&K DuPree wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Hi D...thank you.  Say,
thank you too for alerting me way back when to the video What
the Bleep Do We Know?  Outstanding.  Will be watching again. 
Mike
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
D.
Mindock 
To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent:
Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM
Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can


 Mike,
See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1828245 which has a blurb plus links.
Peace, D. Mindock

  -
Original Message - 
  From:
  M&K DuPree 
  To:
  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  
  Sent:
Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM
  Subject:
[Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou can
  
  
  Let me also add this
note.  I haven't checked the Pentagon site for this info.  Maybe
someone else would care to research it and verify.  But here you. --
Mike DuPree
   
  http://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html 
   
  
  

  
40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted from
military since 2000: report
  
  
 printResizeButton();   
    
  
  


Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the U.S.
military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted Pentagon sources
as saying Tuesday. 
From the total, more than half had served in the U.S.
Army, according to the report. 
Anti-war organizations said that the mass desertions
were due to the strong resistance to war which is more prevalent than
the military has openly admitted. 
"They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam about the amount of opposition to the war
and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who represents
Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse to join
his brigade when it was sent to Iraq
last month. He is now under military custody in Fort Lewis, Washington.

A 2002 Army report said that desertion was fairly
constant but "tends to worsen during wartime." 
Source: Xinhua 


  

  
  
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Joe Street 
To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org

Sent:
Thursday, August 10, 2006 12:15 PM
Subject:
Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it while you can


Throughout my life, growing up, initially ignoring the news like most
children, then paying more attention and then eventually learning of
media control and being disgusted and so again ignoring, and then
returning and watching it as a propaganda source and as an indicator of
where control is being exercised has been a gradual process of
unfolding for me.  But there through it all has been a voice I have
often heard.  One of the quieter voices that sometimes gets a chance at
the microphone but generally not, is the voice that keeps saying there
are those who promote war.  War is needed. War is what sustains some
element of the warped western society. That voice is ringing in my head
now and I wonder where the next conflict will spring up.  It is true. I
guess the situation in Iraq has turned into one where the US is
spending more than it wants to and using too many of it's own weapons
because it has to.  It only makes sense that a conflict needs to happen
elsewhere where weapons need to be used up which are bought and paid
for and replaced with new ones which are bought and paid for.  Where
will the next cash cow be? Can anyone guess?

Joe

Kirk McLoren wrote:

  It appears Bush has at least 3 motives for war.
  1. OIL
  2. support of radical right "Christianity" and their
"end time" views thus their support of war.
  3. Support of his allie Israel which wants his support
for their expansionism. His father when director of CIA furthered this
by CIA bankrolling Murdoch so he could purchase all the media which we
see is now pro Israel.
  News reporting is not what they do. CONsensus forming is
what they do.
  Basically it seems oil ambitions have joined
expansionist ambitions.Perhaps they are not so separate.
   
  There may be another factor as well in the alliance.
  see http://www.puritans.net/news/royalty022703.htm
  “Both
George Bush and Barbara Pierce Bush (of Merrill, Lynch, Pierce, Fenner
and Smith) are descended from the same Pierce family of England as
Presi