Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator
Hi Tom, Thank you so much for your post. We've been way back for 5 years and the decision tree is quite different from that of the plug in culture. Regarding refrigeration: it is a significant energy user and when watts are precious we take notice. My solution is quite simple in our cold climate of Northern New Hampshire USA where it is colder more than warmer than refrigeration temperatures. I put the refrigerator in an insulated cavity on an outside wall with vents (manually operated) to allow more and/or less access to outside air. The primary purpose of regulation was to keep the refrigerator from freezing. Since the refrigerator itself is also insulated, it averages temperatures over time and freezing has not been a problem, so vent operation is very minimal. In summer the (normal electric) refrigerator blows its waste heat (and noise) outside. Spring and Fall, the compressor sometimes comes on and works efficiently against cool outdoor temperatures. I'm installing a small chest freezer using same principles. I had ruled out a freezer due to excessive power consumption before the north wall concept. Small, personal innovation can produce satisfaction beyond savings. How nice that is. Tom Thiel On 10 Jan, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Hi Chip, You wrote: And yes, for the record, I am not a big fan of 'payback costs' when it comes to passive vs utility consumption. When the power goes out, passive systems continue to work. Some aspects of payback can be difficult to quantify or even anticipate. Gardening: Shovel $37 (US) Rake ($26) Pitchfork ($32) Hoe ($30) Small Hand Tools ($76) Seeds/Plants $__, etc. The experience of gardening; growing your own food: Priceless. While one could argue that vegetable gardening is profitable, what about flower gardens? What about people who grow fruits and vegetables and give most of them away w/o concern for payback period? Some things that are simply joyful ... as in full of joy. We take joy in doing them.. Some take joy in the little dollops of independence that we feel by producing our own food or by getting off the grid. I wouldn't know how to put a price on joy or independence. It certainly is an interesting refrigerator. When I see a creative idea/design implemented by human hands it takes on the qualities of art. Pouring a cold glass of milk from the interesting refrigerator . priceless. Not so much to jump on the question re; payback period for the refrigerator; it is a valid question. They did mention in the section Solar Electricity that they would have had to pay $30,000 to run wiring to their home. It might be that given their situation, the interesting refrigerator made perfect economical sense as well; another example of appropriate technology. Thanks for the original post Kirk. I've been playing around with some ideas for at least pre-heating water going to my boiler (heat hot water)using a solar collector and maybe even my woodstove, to lower the amount of fuel I use. Tom - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator John Mullan wrote: I've seen that before. Excellent idea. I wonder how much all that copper, insulation, etc. would cost (for purpose of payback period)? When calculating the 'payback period' be sure to deduct (or add) the cost of a couple of medium term power outages, as folks all across the mid-west have seen over the last few winters. And yes, for the record, I am not a big fan of 'payback costs' when it comes to passive vs utility consumption. When the power goes out, passive systems continue to work. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list
Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator
Hello Tom,
Thank you so much for your post.
Nice of you to say.
Regarding refrigeration: it is a significant energy user and when watts
are precious we take notice. My solution is quite simple in our cold
climate of Northern New Hampshire USA where it is colder more than
warmer than refrigeration temperatures.
{snip}
Your solution makes perfect sense. Why use those precious watts to cool
something when there's plenty of cool on the other side of the wall?
Small, personal innovation can produce satisfaction beyond savings.
How nice that is.
Well said.
Tom K.
- Original Message -
From: Tom Thiel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator
Hi Tom,
Thank you so much for your post.
We've been way back for 5 years and the decision tree is quite
different from that of the plug in culture.
Regarding refrigeration: it is a significant energy user and when watts
are precious we take notice. My solution is quite simple in our cold
climate of Northern New Hampshire USA where it is colder more than
warmer than refrigeration temperatures. I put the refrigerator in an
insulated cavity on an outside wall with vents (manually operated) to
allow more and/or less access to outside air. The primary purpose of
regulation was to keep the refrigerator from freezing. Since the
refrigerator itself is also insulated, it averages temperatures over
time and freezing has not been a problem, so vent operation is very
minimal. In summer the (normal electric) refrigerator blows its waste
heat (and noise) outside. Spring and Fall, the compressor sometimes
comes on and works efficiently against cool outdoor temperatures.
I'm installing a small chest freezer using same principles. I had ruled
out a freezer due to excessive power consumption before the north
wall concept.
Small, personal innovation can produce satisfaction beyond savings. How
nice that is.
Tom Thiel
On 10 Jan, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote:
Hi Chip,
You wrote:
And yes, for the record, I am not a big fan of 'payback costs'
when it comes to passive vs utility consumption.
When the power goes out, passive systems continue to work.
Some aspects of payback can be difficult to quantify or even
anticipate.
Gardening:
Shovel $37 (US)
Rake ($26)
Pitchfork ($32)
Hoe ($30)
Small Hand Tools ($76)
Seeds/Plants $__, etc.
The experience of gardening; growing your own food: Priceless.
While one could argue that vegetable gardening is profitable,
what
about flower gardens? What about people who grow fruits and vegetables
and
give most of them away w/o concern for payback period?
Some things that are simply joyful ... as in full of joy. We take
joy
in doing them.. Some take joy in the little dollops of independence
that we
feel by producing our own food or by getting off the grid. I wouldn't
know
how to put a price on joy or independence.
It certainly is an interesting refrigerator. When I see a
creative
idea/design implemented by human hands it takes on the qualities of
art.
Pouring a cold glass of milk from the interesting refrigerator
.
priceless.
Not so much to jump on the question re; payback period for the
refrigerator; it is a valid question. They did mention in the section
Solar
Electricity that they would have had to pay $30,000 to run wiring to
their
home. It might be that given their situation, the interesting
refrigerator
made perfect economical sense as well; another example of appropriate
technology.
Thanks for the original post Kirk. I've been playing around with
some
ideas for at least pre-heating water going to my boiler (heat hot
water)using a solar collector and maybe even my woodstove, to lower the
amount of fuel I use.
Tom
- Original Message -
From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator
John Mullan wrote:
I've seen that before. Excellent idea. I wonder how much all that
copper, insulation, etc. would cost (for purpose of payback period)?
When calculating the 'payback period' be sure to deduct (or add)
the cost of a couple of medium term power outages, as folks all
across the mid-west have seen over the last few winters.
And yes, for the record, I am not a big fan of 'payback costs'
when it comes to passive vs utility consumption.
When the power goes out, passive systems continue to work.
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator
John Mullan wrote: I've seen that before. Excellent idea. I wonder how much all that copper, insulation, etc. would cost (for purpose of payback period)? When calculating the 'payback period' be sure to deduct (or add) the cost of a couple of medium term power outages, as folks all across the mid-west have seen over the last few winters. And yes, for the record, I am not a big fan of 'payback costs' when it comes to passive vs utility consumption. When the power goes out, passive systems continue to work. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator
Hi Chip, You wrote: And yes, for the record, I am not a big fan of 'payback costs' when it comes to passive vs utility consumption. When the power goes out, passive systems continue to work. Some aspects of payback can be difficult to quantify or even anticipate. Gardening: Shovel $37 (US) Rake ($26) Pitchfork ($32) Hoe ($30) Small Hand Tools ($76) Seeds/Plants $__, etc. The experience of gardening; growing your own food: Priceless. While one could argue that vegetable gardening is profitable, what about flower gardens? What about people who grow fruits and vegetables and give most of them away w/o concern for payback period? Some things that are simply joyful ... as in full of joy. We take joy in doing them.. Some take joy in the little dollops of independence that we feel by producing our own food or by getting off the grid. I wouldn't know how to put a price on joy or independence. It certainly is an interesting refrigerator. When I see a creative idea/design implemented by human hands it takes on the qualities of art. Pouring a cold glass of milk from the interesting refrigerator . priceless. Not so much to jump on the question re; payback period for the refrigerator; it is a valid question. They did mention in the section Solar Electricity that they would have had to pay $30,000 to run wiring to their home. It might be that given their situation, the interesting refrigerator made perfect economical sense as well; another example of appropriate technology. Thanks for the original post Kirk. I've been playing around with some ideas for at least pre-heating water going to my boiler (heat hot water)using a solar collector and maybe even my woodstove, to lower the amount of fuel I use. Tom - Original Message - From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator John Mullan wrote: I've seen that before. Excellent idea. I wonder how much all that copper, insulation, etc. would cost (for purpose of payback period)? When calculating the 'payback period' be sure to deduct (or add) the cost of a couple of medium term power outages, as folks all across the mid-west have seen over the last few winters. And yes, for the record, I am not a big fan of 'payback costs' when it comes to passive vs utility consumption. When the power goes out, passive systems continue to work. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] interesting refrigerator
http://fourmileisland.com/IceBox.htm - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080109/79a43087/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] interesting refrigerator
I've seen that before. Excellent idea. I wonder how much all that copper, insulation, etc. would cost (for purpose of payback period)? Kirk McLoren wrote: http://fourmileisland.com/IceBox.htm - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080109/79a43087/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
