[Biofuel] okay, question that is almost topic-relevant. Safe vegetable oils?
In short, I have a small chainsaw powered sawmill. Now, I'll not try to defend the chainsaw as environmentally sensitive, nor sustainable. I'll leave that be for now. But the bit that I'm stuck on right now, is that running this sawmill generates a lot of sawdust. Some folks will argue that chainsaw mills suck because of the kerf, and bandmills are better due to the smaller kerf. Again, I don't want to argue. On wide planks, my chainsaw mill gives me really flat and accurate cuts. Bandmills wander a bit. So -to me- it's a question of do I want to leave the sawdust at the milling site, or at the planer later. Machs nix. But with the thought of composting all that really nice and very fine sawdust, it occurs to me that the bar-oil content is an issue. So, no big deal I think, I'll just use this fancy environmentally friendly vegetable oil based bar oil. But being the person I am, I decided to critique this concept. Seems that all commercial 'environmental' bar oils are canola based. And even though one isn't supposed to, it's possible to get that bar and chain pretty hot. 'cooked' canola oil doesn't seem like the stuff with which I want to amend my food garden soil. So I start looking at other vegetable oils, since these products are used in forestry all over the world where forestry is a more careful practice than here in the US, and I see that all over europe and parts of africa, vegetable based bar oils are the standard. But is this stuff really superior in an environmental sense than ole dinosaur bones? Esp when it's been heated/cooked? What is a good vegetable oil lubricant that isn't a GMO product? Any and all clues deeply appreciated. . -- --- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] okay, question that is almost topic-relevant. Safe vegetable oils?
Chip Mefford wrote: > In short, > I have a small chainsaw powered sawmill. > > Now, I'll not try to defend the chainsaw as environmentally sensitive, > nor sustainable. I'll leave that be for now. > > But the bit that I'm stuck on right now, is that running this sawmill > generates a lot of sawdust. Some folks will argue that chainsaw mills > suck because of the kerf, and bandmills are better due to the smaller > kerf. Again, I don't want to argue. On wide planks, my chainsaw mill > gives me really flat and accurate cuts. Bandmills wander a bit. So > -to me- it's a question of do I want to leave the sawdust at the > milling site, or at the planer later. Machs nix. > > But with the thought of composting all that really nice and very > fine sawdust, it occurs to me that the bar-oil content is an issue. > > So, no big deal I think, I'll just use this fancy environmentally > friendly vegetable oil based bar oil. But being the person I am, I > decided to critique this concept. Seems that all commercial > 'environmental' bar oils are canola based. And even though one isn't > supposed to, it's possible to get that bar and chain pretty hot. > 'cooked' canola oil doesn't seem like the stuff with which I want to > amend my food garden soil. > > So I start looking at other vegetable oils, since these products > are used in forestry all over the world where forestry is a more > careful practice than here in the US, and I see that all over > europe and parts of africa, vegetable based bar oils are the standard. > > But is this stuff really superior in an environmental sense than > ole dinosaur bones? Esp when it's been heated/cooked? > > What is a good vegetable oil lubricant that isn't a GMO product? > > Any and all clues deeply appreciated. . > > Hello Chip, despite you dont wont to deal with this rigt now, your Chainsawmill is far from sustainable or economical! The kerf on a chainsaw is at least 10mm to 12mm in compare to a Bandsawmill 3mm! Your claim bandsawmills wander a bit... only if your blade is dull or badly maintained! I cut on my Bandsawmill up to 4000pmp a day,average 2000pmp depends how the wood is! You can not possybly mach that nearly with a Chainsawcut! But than thats what you got and you may as well use it! My boards are cut 1'' on center, i plane them down to 3/4 and have therefore very little sawdust or shavings,my shavings are pressed to Briquettes so i have allmost no loss! Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] okay, question that is almost topic-relevant. Safe vegetable oils?
chip, i can't offer an expert opinion, but i'm happy to offer my perspective. even with the heat and pressure that will occur when making a cut, i really have serious doubts that such conditions are extreme or prolonged enough to alter the oil either (a) much (if at all) beyond what has already been done to it by the manufacturer (it may be canola-based, but it's been altered to withstand higher heat and pressure), or (b) to the point that it would be comparably nasty to dino-based oils. you also have to bear in mind that the quantities of oil in question are very small, smaller still when you consider that some of it is clinging to the board and not the sawdust (not to diminish the issue, by any means). so to me the issue is more a question of determining why the oil merits being labelled 'environmental' to begin with. is it because it (or what gets left behind after a cut) is substantially less toxic than dino oil (my inclination would be to suspect so), or simply because of the raw materials from which it is made? the only way to satisfactorily answer these questions is by getting data. :) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] okay, question that is almost topic-relevant. Safe vegetable oils?
Hi Chris, Thanks kindly for your perspective. But I think I've not expressed the concern clearly. Most of the oil is in the sawdust, and on the ground, the nearbyd soil and foliage. As the USFS says "Each year, thousands of gallons of oil go into the forest and never come back out". Dino bones are clearly a *bad thing* in this context. However, getting the facts in this case is less clear than one may expect at first blush. For one thing, all kinds of stuff is considered 'food safe', that upon closer inspection, clearly isn't. Case in point, most if not all of the 'canola' (canadian oil, or rapeseed) is GMO. Everything that goes into your compost ends up in your food, which ends up in you. The fact that folks consider GMO foods 'safe' in no way makes it true. It *may* be true, but this is another case where it's assumed to be so because it's difficult to prove otherwise. Not a great protocol. Oh, maybe I didn't mention, the idea is to recover the sawdust to use in composting. I've tried to talk to the folks at Fungi Perfecti (llc) who are developing a mushroom spore infused chain saw bar oil. I think that's a very cool idea. However, they won't come off the science on the oil itself. Or at least, not to me. Imagine if you will, a conversation that goes like this: Assertion, Chain Saw Bar Oil is a problem: Answer, We'll use vegetable oil, it's organic, so it's perfect! The world: Great! Let us go forth and spew vegetable oil in place of petro-based oil, make the world better. Me: 'Umm, are there any problems with vegetable oil in this context?' Answer: "nyah nyah nyah, we can't hear your question" Me: 'It's cool that folks are trying to do better, but is better good enough?' Answer: 'nyah nyah nyah, we can't hear your question" And so on. And yes, to your point, if you do things correctly, then you shouldn't cook the oil on the bar/chain. I use a water drip to help keep things cool. It helps with my bar and chain sharpness life too. But that doesn't make it a non-issue. Chris Burck wrote: > chip, i can't offer an expert opinion, but i'm happy to offer my > perspective. even with the heat and pressure that will occur when > making a cut, i really have serious doubts that such conditions are > extreme or prolonged enough to alter the oil either (a) much (if at > all) beyond what has already been done to it by the manufacturer (it > may be canola-based, but it's been altered to withstand higher heat > and pressure), or (b) to the point that it would be comparably nasty > to dino-based oils. you also have to bear in mind that the quantities > of oil in question are very small, smaller still when you consider > that some of it is clinging to the board and not the sawdust (not to > diminish the issue, by any means). so to me the issue is more a > question of determining why the oil merits being labelled > 'environmental' to begin with. is it because it (or what gets left > behind after a cut) is substantially less toxic than dino oil (my > inclination would be to suspect so), or simply because of the raw > materials from which it is made? the only way to satisfactorily > answer these questions is by getting data. :) > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- --- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] okay, question that is almost topic-relevant. Safe vegetable oils?
Hey Fritz: Thanks kindly for your input. Couple of points, On the economic side of the question, I can argue that. I can put my mill on the site with my Subaru station wagon. (with no trailer) Usually I can walk the mill to the saw logs by myself, and then carry out the lumber by hand to move off site, or to stack for drying at the clients place of choosing. No Skidding, No forwarding, minimal soil compaction. The usual stuff I mill is storm damaged, blown down 'yard' trees. This isn't production. So board-feet-per-day and PMPs aren't even on my radar. Loosing 1/4 of the wood at the planer, well, thou and I differ on that point of view. If folks intend to finish to 3/4, I mill to 7/8 to allow for shrinkage and a finishing pass. My lumber is already dimensionally accurate. again leave the sawdust at the mill, or on the floor of the shop. Preferences. For my personal projects, I tend to go straight to sanding, and don't even plane. Note, I can mill 1/16 laminate off the board face accurately. I've never seen a band mill do this. I'm milling stuff that would have been bucked and split for firewood at best, hauled to a landfill at worst. and my kerf is >6.5mm Good on ya for your wood chip processing. near zero waste is a great achievement, and a worthy goal. Kinda where I am trying to go myself. Thanks for your story, and keep it up. > Hello Chip, > despite you dont wont to deal with this rigt now, > your Chainsawmill is far from sustainable or economical! > The kerf on a chainsaw is at least 10mm to 12mm in compare to a > Bandsawmill 3mm! > Your claim bandsawmills wander a bit... only if your blade is dull or > badly maintained! > I cut on my Bandsawmill up to 4000pmp a day,average 2000pmp depends how > the wood is! > You can not possybly mach that nearly with a Chainsawcut! > But than thats what you got and you may as well use it! > My boards are cut 1'' on center, i plane them down to 3/4 and have > therefore very little sawdust or shavings,my shavings are pressed to > Briquettes so i have allmost no loss! > Fritz > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- --- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] okay, question that is almost topic-relevant. Safe vegetable oils?
Chip wrote: > > Hi Chris, Hi. :) > > Most of the oil is in the sawdust, and on the ground, the nearbyd > soil and foliage. As the USFS says "Each year, thousands of gallons > of oil go into the forest and never come back out". Dino bones are > clearly a *bad thing* in this context. > Interesting. In my experience doing tree removals, even very heavy days where we might be taking down the equivalent of half a dozen very large oaks, I can't say I've ever seen even 1 complete gallon of b&c oil get used. Of course, this isn't the same as ripping a bunch of board, but i wonder how much it's a question of different equipment. Again, not that I'm trying to minimize or dismiss the environmental impact. I have at times wondered whether oil could be replaced completely; perhaps by a gel or something (of course, whatever it is, if it's petro-based or takes a lot of energy to make, you're just palying a shell game). Water would work, but the volume required makes it impractical. Frankly, the forestry industry is just one more example of how the drive to reduce labor costs has run us off a cliff. > However, getting the facts in this case is less clear than one > may expect at first blush. For one thing, all kinds of stuff > is considered 'food safe', that upon closer inspection, clearly > isn't. > > Case in point, most if not all of the 'canola' (canadian oil, or > rapeseed) is GMO. Everything that goes into your compost ends > up in your food, which ends up in you. The fact that folks consider > GMO foods 'safe' in no way makes it true. It *may* be true, but > this is another case where it's assumed to be so because it's > difficult to prove otherwise. Not a great protocol. > This is an excellent point. But, hey, if it *is* made from a gmo plant, it'd be the perfect oil to use when cutting those fancy new eucalyuptus! (God! I love the smell of synergy in the morning. . . .) Like i said, the real question is why the stuff in question merits the label "environmental." > > I've tried to talk to the folks at Fungi Perfecti (llc) who are > developing a mushroom spore infused chain saw bar oil. I think > that's a very cool idea. However, they won't come off the > science on the oil itself. Or at least, not to me. > > Imagine if you will, a conversation that goes like this: > > Assertion, Chain Saw Bar Oil is a problem: > Answer, We'll use vegetable oil, it's organic, so it's perfect! > The world: Great! Let us go forth and spew vegetable oil > in place of petro-based oil, make the world better. > > Me: 'Umm, are there any problems with vegetable oil in > this context?' > Answer: "nyah nyah nyah, we can't hear your question" > Me: 'It's cool that folks are trying to do better, > but is better good enough?' > Answer: 'nyah nyah nyah, we can't hear your question" > > And so on. Ugh! Yeah, wouldn't relish having to do the research on this one (thus the smiley face when I mentioned data). > > And yes, to your point, if you do things correctly, then > you shouldn't cook the oil on the bar/chain. I use a water > drip to help keep things cool. It helps with my bar and > chain sharpness life too. Nice. I'm sure the info is out there, but you'd have to really dig if the manufacturers aren't forthcoming (whether about the gmo aspect or the chenistry). They're the logical starting point. If that's not fruitful, I'd try doing a patent search using their company names as the search string. Or even a general web search along the lines of b&c oil AND petroleum substitute. That's likely to turn up some leads, like industry-specific user groups or scientific papers. Have fun! :) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
