Re: [biofuel] Conservation may be a virtue...
Sir, You have apparently not taken the trouble to accurately read previous text or context, much less concern yourself with digesting it. Thank you, Appal Energy, for a fiery and lengthy response to my simple statement that conservation of finite resources only changes the timeline, not the result (and not by much in any case). You did not, however, bother to refute the statement. Actually, what you said was ...energy policy that rests on conservation is a dead end - and he's right. Your remark was in direct reference to US VP Dick Cheney's remark that conservation...is not sound energy policy. By agreeing with such a statement, you diminish the value of conservation of any and all energy resources, and lend that perspective to all people who are within your sphere of influence. Albeit a strange concept, there is every bit as much need to conserve energy production from renewables, both before and after fossil fuel conservation has reached its most efficient level. That is, unless you believe that the reason for human existance is to feed industrial machines and that every soul should be pleased to forfeit much of the living experience in exchange for the honor of punching a time clock for someone else in order to pay for wasteful consumption. Heartbeats are relatively few in each life. They should be spent wisely and efficiently. This is sound human policy. As for refutation, my entire response was such. There are only a limitted number of explanations for how you could miss this. To repeat, an energy policy that places not even tertiary import on conservation, efficiency and renewables, opting rather for new production utilizing debilitating fuels as the primary policy, wastes valuable economic, human and environmental resources and largely defines our children's destiny. I never stated that new production is or will be uneccessary. I simply stated that there are more productive ways of creating it. You mention responsible civil servants. I'm glad to hear that we have some of those left, at least in your estimation. Yes, there are many. Unfortunately, the behavior of the upper echelon of the US government's executive branch does not reflect responsibility relative to comprehensive energy policy. Unfortunately, it is not responsible to propagate a falsehood - at least not in my book. Please, could you elaborate on exactly what falsehood has been or is being propagated? Responsibility requires that an accusation or insinuation at minimum to be defined. Your message provides a kind of synopsis of all the comforting but dangerous falsehoods that pervade the alternate energy field: knee-jerk anti-nuclear militancy, the belief (again, against all evidence) that renewables can provide a complete solution to Mankind's energy needs, A, but sir, that is neither what I said or have professed in the past. And thank you for sumarizing my entire life's learning process and that of others in such simple and deriding words as knee-jerk and militant. I will be brief: 1) Those militants forced the US nuclear power industry to cease and desist production of Light Water Reactors (LWRs) riddled with design flaws and inherantly dangerous. As a result, the industry went back to the drawing board and has come up with several designs which are theoretically walk away safe, containing tens of thousands less moving parts and components prone to failure and producing enormously lower volumes of radioactive waste - modular helium and liquid metal cooled reactors being the most preferable. Yet the US nuclear industry wishes to revive construction of LWRs. History has taught them little or nothing. Reading their own endless list of published accidents in the DOE failure archives deters them not - their preference being production on a massive economy of scale, opposed to safer micro-production and modular design. Please, make your attempt to sway any with an understanding of the issue that this is not one definition of insanity. 2) I have not said (yet) that renewables can provide a complete solution to Mankind's energy needs. Nor do I believe do most renewable advocates. What many have said is that renewables, conservation and efficiency can match all new energy demands, permitting greater longevity of fossil fuel stores for the inevetible need of future generations. This is sound energy policy. and of course the usual lashing-out at the straw men whose greed is supposedly causing the problem. Actually, they are real men and women, making real decisions which affect real people, in real and future time. Yes, they are indeed prone to greed and indiference, as can be any human. First, show me the numbers that prove that the world can function without petroleum, THEN complain that American blood and treasure is being used to safeguard its sources. I'm sorry, but up to here I have been patient. It is up to you to pull your head out of your back pocket. As a token measure, I will suggest you
[biofuel] Conservation may be a virtue... FAO/Politics/Environment/Social
FYI: This century has seen the world become a willing captive to an unsustainable future. The economically developed world is addicted to high energy consumption and global economic development will be reflected by the ever-expanding use of fossil fuels. The predicted growth in world population, supposedly peaking somewhere between 8 to 10 billion people will become a critical issue as the less developed countries of the world develop their economies and strive to enjoy their full and fair measure of the biosphere's renewable and non-renewable resources... Since oil and coal are extracted from earth sources, supplies are finite and there are considerable concerns over the extent of remaining reserves. Far more significant for the quality of our life on this planet are the environmental problems associated with oil and coal utilization. Severe atmospheric pollution, acid rain and oil spills have defiled the world we live in to an unspeakable extent. Of even greater concern is the ceaseless buildup of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere and the potential warming trend associated with the Greenhouse effect. However, despite the dual oil price shocks of 1973 and 1980, total CO2 emissions into the atmosphere increased by more than 40% in the two decades between 1970 and 1990. It is a pattern we seem incapable of controlling. The struggle we face in the future will not be characterized by a single battle or a focused apocalyptic event. If we continue with our current lifestyle, we will experience a slow protracted diminution of quality of life. In how many capitals cities of the world today do we see traffic police wearing masks to protect them from pollution? How many millions of new cases of respiratory disease are due to an atmosphere increasingly degraded by automobile exhausts and industrial emissions? It is clear that the continued utilization of fossil fuels as a dominant energy source is not consistent with the long-term sustainability of our environment. Other practical forms of commercial industrial energy must be developed and in particular, sources that are renewable and pose the minimum risk to our environment. Morton Satin Chief, Agro-Industries and Post-harvest Management Service Agricultural Support Systems Division FAO From the forward to: Renewable biological systems for alternative sustainable energy production (FAO Agricultural Services Bulletin - 128) - Some of us aim to deter that truth. Todd Swearingen Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Conservation may be a virtue...
Hello Marc Well...you almost heard it here first. According to the second of our Commander in Thief King George II, Dick Cheney has proclaimed that Conservation may be a virtue, but it is not sound energy policy. In an era where the social, economic and environmental cost of fossil and nuclear fuels is draining the life's blood of a planet's people, and where populations are ever more swaying towards the sane and sound practice of conservation, efficiency and alternative energies, it is difficult to imagine a statement and policy course that could be more criminal. What he was saying is that energy policy that rests on conservation is a dead end - and he's right. No matter how much one conserves a finite resource, it will eventually be exhausted. That's true, but it doesn't make Cheney right. It is indeed a finite resource, nobody's claiming that conserving it will increase it. But not conserving it obviously means using it up all the quicker, whereas maybe we should consider leaving some for future generations, rather than using up the entire vast and ancient cake all by ourselves in a hundred years flat? For using up read wasting, because that's mostly what we've done with it, with all the unfortunate side-effects quite another issue. Maybe first we should figure what the stuff's actually good for, and profligate energy generation ain't it - that's a job for renewables (especially on the local level), once you've cut industrialised-nation over-use down to some sort of rational level and evened out the inequities. Same goes for transport. That MUST happen, but it will take political will, which Cheney isn't exactly demonstrating, nor is his boss (if I've got that the right way round). Chemical fertilisers? Again, wasteful, unnecessary and destructive, there are far better alternatives that aren't wasteful or destructive, work better, have no unfortunate side-effects and are infinitely renewable. Same goes for pesticides, and perhaps very many of the chemicals. Plastics: Dow sees the future in starch feedstocks for plastics: biodegradable, no POPs, and infinitely renewable. That was the way it was going at first, before Big Oil interceded. What's that leave? What is the best, most rational use for fossil fuels? Nuclear energy doesn't have any rational use until the waste disposal problems are solved, rather than just being swept under the corner of the carpet. Meanwhile, compulsory conservation efforts may very well have frustrated the very endeavors that might have provided a long term solution. I don't quite understand what you're referring to here. If you feel so strongly about this, why wait for the Government to direct you to conserve? DO IT by all means, and let us get on with finding solutions. Yes, that's why we're all here, more and more of us all the time, here and elsewhere with similar purposes. Todd, by the way, doesn't seem to be waiting much for anyone. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Conservation may be a virtue... FAO/Politics/Environment/Social
Hi Ed, Outstanding , right on the money ! Amen, David Cruse - Original Message - From: NBT - E. Beggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:57 PM Subject: [biofuel] Conservation may be a virtue... FAO/Politics/Environment/Social FYI: This century has seen the world become a willing captive to an unsustainable future. The economically developed world is addicted to high energy consumption and global economic development will be reflected by the ever-expanding use of fossil fuels. The predicted growth in world population, supposedly peaking somewhere between 8 to 10 billion people will become a critical issue as the less developed countries of the world develop their economies and strive to enjoy their full and fair measure of the biosphere's renewable and non-renewable resources... Since oil and coal are extracted from earth sources, supplies are finite and there are considerable concerns over the extent of remaining reserves. Far more significant for the quality of our life on this planet are the environmental problems associated with oil and coal utilization. Severe atmospheric pollution, acid rain and oil spills have defiled the world we live in to an unspeakable extent. Of even greater concern is the ceaseless buildup of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere and the potential warming trend associated with the Greenhouse effect. However, despite the dual oil price shocks of 1973 and 1980, total CO2 emissions into the atmosphere increased by more than 40% in the two decades between 1970 and 1990. It is a pattern we seem incapable of controlling. The struggle we face in the future will not be characterized by a single battle or a focused apocalyptic event. If we continue with our current lifestyle, we will experience a slow protracted diminution of quality of life. In how many capitals cities of the world today do we see traffic police wearing masks to protect them from pollution? How many millions of new cases of respiratory disease are due to an atmosphere increasingly degraded by automobile exhausts and industrial emissions? It is clear that the continued utilization of fossil fuels as a dominant energy source is not consistent with the long-term sustainability of our environment. Other practical forms of commercial industrial energy must be developed and in particular, sources that are renewable and pose the minimum risk to our environment. Morton Satin Chief, Agro-Industries and Post-harvest Management Service Agricultural Support Systems Division FAO From the forward to: Renewable biological systems for alternative sustainable energy production (FAO Agricultural Services Bulletin - 128) - Some of us aim to deter that truth. Todd Swearingen Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Conservation may be a virtue,...
Well...you almost heard it here first. According to the second of our Commander in Thief King George II, Dick Cheney has proclaimed that Conservation may be a virtue, but it is not sound energy policy. In an era where the social, economic and environmental cost of fossil and nuclear fuels is draining the life's blood of a planet's people, and where populations are ever more swaying towards the sane and sound practice of conservation, efficiency and alternative energies, it is difficult to imagine a statement and policy course that could be more criminal. Mind you I say Commander in Thief not as a result of November tallies. Rather, the self-earned title is based upon the en masse and in progress selling out and stealing of the future of generations yet to exist. I say it here and I say it now, I will pay no tithe to this puppet king until he lives by the very religious standard to which he professes and turns to serve humanity, rather than BP, King Coal and the global banks. God Damn King George and all who would kneel in servitude!.!.!.!.!.!.!.! Todd Swearingen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Conservation may be a virtue,...
http://www.jxj.com/magsandj/rew/subscribe_form.html News from beyond the Oil Curtain, for repressed citizens of the USA. Projects that open the eyes are profiled. Circulate the back copies!! ( I do not have any affiliation with James and James, and the magazine is free for qualified professionals.) - - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 9:25 PM Subject: [biofuel] Conservation may be a virtue,... Well...you almost heard it here first. According to the second of our Commander in Thief King George II, Dick Cheney has proclaimed that Conservation may be a virtue, but it is not sound energy policy. Todd Swearingen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
