[biofuel] [biofuels-biz] Re: MIT study skeptical about fuel cell vehicles
Hi Steve Actually I didn't write, just the conduit this time, and I can't quite say who did write, other than that it's an authoritative source. So, not my opinion. However, thanks for the clarification. 1. The study was partially funded by American Petroleum Institute. Don't know who funded the rest. The API is not exactly to be trusted - you think they bent MIT? Sorry to say it wouldn't be very unusual - there's a lot of concern among scientists about corporations et al buying science, undeclared interests of people writing peer-reviewed studies, etc. along with studies showing that industry-funded studies are definitely more likely to be biased towards the industry than independent studies (what a surprise!). On the other hand, I've been hearing promising, just-around-the-corner (all we need is a few more million) statements about fuel cells for more than 30 years. Diesel hybrids are a ready-for-use technology, fuel cells aren't. As to why that matters, Hakan has put it well in some of his posts, and at his website - here, for instance: http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml Structures of a biofuel business It's certainly not intended as discouragement of further research into promising technologies. Best Keith groundhogsteve wrote: --- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MIT study skeptical about fuel cell vehicles A new study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) concluded that diesel hybrids will be better than hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in terms of total energy efficiency and greenhouse gas emissions until at least 2020. Furthermore, adoption of the hydrogen- based vehicle will require major infrastructure changes to make compressed hydrogen available. Keith- The MIT study has been thoroughly discussed on the Yahoo Finance Ballard Power Board. A few points: 1. The study was partially funded by American Petroleum Institute. Don't know who funded the rest. 2. It underestimates the efficiency of reforming natural gas into hydrogen, key to the overall outcome. I would suggest you read this posting by gomor9 http://messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FNaction=mboard=8728891tid=bldpf; sid=8728891mid=84558 to get a grip on the issue. Although several have claimed gomor9 was wrong, he has effectively answered them, IMO. This efficiency factor is one of the keys to the outcome of the study, and the bias was against fuel cells and towards diesel hybrids. As gomor9 points out, Osaka Gas already claims to have a reformer with significantly higher efficiency, even though it is for very small volumes. 3. The conversion efficiency of oil into diesel is overestimated for likely future scenarios. If we are relying on heavy oils from California, Athabasca, Trinidad, or Venzuela, there is a loss for steam injection into those wells. And at some point, even Middle Eastern oil, which had extremely high natural pressure to begin with, will need secondary and tertiary recovery techniques. 4. As an example of how unrealistic the study is, it is based on oil being available for a price of $12 to $32 per barrel in 2020. Nor does it consider the externalities of acquiring oil or the externalities of pollution. Likewise, it never considers compressed hydrogen generated by hydrolysis as a fuel. And, to be fair, my bias is that I own some Ballard stock. Steve Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ZKLNcC/pEZFAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] [biofuels-biz] Re: MIT study skeptical about fuel cell vehicles
Hello Steve Keith- Don't get me wrong, I think biodiesel is pretty neat stuff, to the point that as soon as I get some springtime things done for my business, I'll see about putting together a business plan for a moderate scale (500-1,000 K GPY) WVO to biodiesel facility in my area. My overall view is that there is no one energy solution. That's the overall view of both our lists, often expressed. It is a series of small incremental solutions that cover specific situations. Yes, plus decentralization, as well as greatly improved energy-use reduction and efficiency. I see fuel cells using hydrolysis from renewables as one part. Not yet - even if they're on the road now, still not yet, there are other factors that are at least as important. Did you read the article at Hakan's site I referred you to? http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml Structures of a biofuel business And the new one he's just posted: http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofueldev.shtml Biofuel business in developing countries is published I see conservation as a big part still (did you know about replacement tire sidewall stiffness? New tires are reasonably stiff to get a slightly higher CAFE rating, but the replacement tires you put on your vehicle aren't required, and probably are not, the same stiffness. Enough savings there to cover 3 or 4 ANWARs over the next 50 years. Enough digression) See various writing by Amory Lovins - http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?keywords=Lovinslist=biofuels-biz I just don't see there being enough farmland to grow enough biodiesel to cover all transport needs. It would be difficult enough to cover the current diesel market, much less expanding into electrical generation. And of course, there is the food or fuel question. But now you're looking at it from the point of view of one energy solution. Actually, IMO, these are both non-questions, or the wrong questions anyway. Re food or fuel, see: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html Biofuels - Food or Fuel? http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? But diesel hybrids do sound pretty good. The first beta version of fuel cell cars are in the customer's hands in California and Japan. The first 30 busses are being demonstrated in Europe. All the fuel cell companies are being really secretive about where they are on platinum loading reduction and the overall cost curve. Ballard is actually out selling real fuel cells, not demonstration ones. So I think they will be coming into the mainstream within 5 years. But I would be interested in any studies you may know about that show how much farmland would be required to cover our fuel needs, etc. How about none? http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1395list=BIOFUELS-BIZ Re: Biofuels hold key to future of British farming http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1395list=BIOFUELS-BIZ How much fuel can we grow? http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=18699list=BIOFUEL Soil is not a finite resource. etc Best Keith Steve Hi Steve Actually I didn't write, just the conduit this time, and I can't quite say who did write, other than that it's an authoritative source. So, not my opinion. However, thanks for the clarification. 1. The study was partially funded by American Petroleum Institute. Don't know who funded the rest. The API is not exactly to be trusted - you think they bent MIT? Sorry to say it wouldn't be very unusual - there's a lot of concern among scientists about corporations et al buying science, undeclared interests of people writing peer-reviewed studies, etc. along with studies showing that industry-funded studies are definitely more likely to be biased towards the industry than independent studies (what a surprise!). On the other hand, I've been hearing promising, just-around-the-corner (all we need is a few more million) statements about fuel cells for more than 30 years. Diesel hybrids are a ready-for-use technology, fuel cells aren't. As to why that matters, Hakan has put it well in some of his posts, and at his website - here, for instance: http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/biofuelorg.shtml Structures of a biofuel business It's certainly not intended as discouragement of further research into promising technologies. Best Keith groundhogsteve wrote: --- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MIT study skeptical about fuel cell vehicles A new study by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) concluded that diesel hybrids will be better than hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in terms of total energy efficiency and greenhouse gas emissions until at least 2020. Furthermore, adoption of the hydrogen- based vehicle will require major infrastructure changes to make compressed hydrogen available. Keith- The MIT study has been thoroughly discussed on the Yahoo Finance Ballard Power Board. A few points: 1. The study was
[biofuel] [biofuels-biz] Re: MIT study skeptical about fuel cell vehicles
Keith forwards: Hello Steve Keith- Don't get me wrong, I think biodiesel is pretty neat stuff, to the point that as soon as I get some springtime things done for my business, I'll see about putting together a business plan for a moderate scale (500-1,000 K GPY) WVO to biodiesel facility in my area. . My overall view is that there is no one energy solution. I just don't see there being enough farmland to grow enough biodiesel to cover all transport needs. It would be difficult enough to cover the current diesel market, much less expanding into electrical generation. And of course, there is the food or fuel question. ...I would be interested in any studies you may know about that show how much farmland would be required to cover our fuel needs, etc. I love it -- don't really know where this came from, but I was captivated. Who is this Steve cat? I love the assumption that the solution will somehow be the one that allows us to continue our present epoch unmodified. What about the idea that NOTHING will work unless we're willing to examine a possible lifestyle change (!!!) I wonder if he'd like to address THAT with me.. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] [biofuels-biz] Re: MIT study skeptical about fuel cell vehicles
negawatts are cheaper then megawatts. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 9:26 PM Subject: [biofuel] [biofuels-biz] Re: MIT study skeptical about fuel cell vehicles Keith forwards: Hello Steve Keith- Don't get me wrong, I think biodiesel is pretty neat stuff, to the point that as soon as I get some springtime things done for my business, I'll see about putting together a business plan for a moderate scale (500-1,000 K GPY) WVO to biodiesel facility in my area. . My overall view is that there is no one energy solution. I just don't see there being enough farmland to grow enough biodiesel to cover all transport needs. It would be difficult enough to cover the current diesel market, much less expanding into electrical generation. And of course, there is the food or fuel question. ...I would be interested in any studies you may know about that show how much farmland would be required to cover our fuel needs, etc. I love it -- don't really know where this came from, but I was captivated. Who is this Steve cat? I love the assumption that the solution will somehow be the one that allows us to continue our present epoch unmodified. What about the idea that NOTHING will work unless we're willing to examine a possible lifestyle change (!!!) I wonder if he'd like to address THAT with me.. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] [biofuels-biz] Re: MIT study skeptical about fuel cell vehicles
Steve writes: negawatts are cheaper then megawatts. Exactly -- and more fun. Now to just convince EVERYONE. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE Cell Phones with up to $400 Cash Back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/_bBUKB/vYxFAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
