Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Thank you for your clarification and your comments. I will limit myself to discussion about biofuels - although it has been very tempting to jump in (on?) statements which appear to be very disagreeable. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Domenick V. Amato wrote: That's probably one of the most lame answers I have heard in a very long time. I can assure you that the person who was in the SUV does not agree. Railroad trains can kill SUVs and Yugos can kill pedestrians. Should we ban railroad trains and Yugos or SUVs and pedestrians? We probably should ban cars below the size of an SUV because they are the most unsafe of vehicles when involved in a accident. In my experience, we effectively do ban railroad trains. We require them to have their own roads, and where they do intersect with automotive traffic, they require crossing gates or special warning signage, all erected at the expense of the rail operators. Pedestrians are often provided with their own paths (sidewalks, crosswalks etc) to keep them separated from automotive traffic to reduce injuries from contact. In some places, heavy trucks (over 5 tonnes) get their own roads, or at least their own lanes on highways. So far, we do not require SUVs and light trucks to have their own roads, but this may be primarily because their appearance in large quantities is a relatively new phenomenon. As for the tone of this list, I think if you review this thread, no one here has proposed a ban on SUVs. We had a couple of posters who chose to interpret some comments in that way. We do have some folks (including me) that would prefer to see drivers of heavy SUVs obtain additional licensing to operate these vehicles to ensure they know how they differ from smaller vehicles with lower centers of gravity. Rollovers are a greater concern with SUVs and other high clearance vehicles than those with lower CGs. Larger equipment is topical, as it often uses diesel engines. Still, I don't plan to use a large diesel truck for commuting over a smaller vehicle just because it can run biodiesel. Darryl McMahon Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Wow! Any German or Russian metal? Hey, fire them all up and it could be like Kirsk summer of '43! Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hakan: Off subject. sorry, but 20 miles south of where I live. There is a gentlemen that collects and rents out US tanks, and APC. Old Sherman's to newer M-60s. All the guns are spiked and welded. I hear they are not cheap to rent but he has a open field that you can take one out and play. Harley -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:12 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Greg, Absolutely and I envy you. Being in the signal corps the limit for me was bandwagon truck (wheel in front) and other larger/smaller vehicles with wheels. I started as communication specialist with Morse, codification and that stuff, but after a transfer the slots for this in the new place was filled. Since I had professional licence for Taxi, Buses and Trucks (financed my studies that way), I did some time on transportation support, when waiting for assignment. Finally I ended up as group leader for quality testing of electronic equipment/material deliveries. I would have loved to try or learn to drive a tank -:). Hakan At 10:42 AM 2/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Harley, Thank you for your thought and I will note it down. I have not been in US for 5 years now and miss it and my friends there. When you no longer travel for work, the opportunities gets fewer. If I get there again, I will tell you and it would be great fun to try an old Sherman. Hakan At 10:06 PM 2/27/2003 -0600, you wrote: Hakan: Off subject. sorry, but 20 miles south of where I live. There is a gentlemen that collects and rents out US tanks, and APC. Old Sherman's to newer M-60s. All the guns are spiked and welded. I hear they are not cheap to rent but he has a open field that you can take one out and play. Harley -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:12 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Greg, Absolutely and I envy you. Being in the signal corps the limit for me was bandwagon truck (wheel in front) and other larger/smaller vehicles with wheels. I started as communication specialist with Morse, codification and that stuff, but after a transfer the slots for this in the new place was filled. Since I had professional licence for Taxi, Buses and Trucks (financed my studies that way), I did some time on transportation support, when waiting for assignment. Finally I ended up as group leader for quality testing of electronic equipment/material deliveries. I would have loved to try or learn to drive a tank -:). Hakan At 10:42 AM 2/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
A tank, very much like the kind being sent to the gulf. The main difference is the ones being sent to the gulf are the advanced model and have a 120 mm main gun, a over pressure NBC system, and a few more bells and whistles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Perry Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 17:52 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears OK, I'll bite: What the heck is a 62 ton M-1 Abrems? Perry - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Domenick V. Amato wrote: Thank you for your clarification and your comments. I will limit myself to discussion about biofuels - although it has been very tempting to jump in (on?) statements which appear to be very disagreeable. Dom Amato You're more than welcome to discuss anything you wish. To say it yet again - these are mature people here and probably more individualistic than most, they don't need a nanny telling them what they're allowed to discuss and what not. Robert's point that off-topic discussions often lead somewhere worthwhile is definitely true, it happens again and again. In nearly all cases members are quite capable of moderating themselves, they know when they're being truly off-topic and seldom stray too far. [Moderator mode off.] - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Domenick V. Amato wrote: That's probably one of the most lame answers I have heard in a very long time. I can assure you that the person who was in the SUV does not agree. Railroad trains can kill SUVs and Yugos can kill pedestrians. Should we ban railroad trains and Yugos or SUVs and pedestrians? We probably should ban cars below the size of an SUV because they are the most unsafe of vehicles when involved in a accident. An archives search might have stopped you making this post - not a lame answer, SUVs do kill, and small cars are not inherently more dangerous. Weren't you saying something about sweeping generalizations? If you now want to dub what I've just said as just such sweeping generalizations, don't forget that I've referred you to supporting material in the archives, but you've offered no support for any of the statements you've made other than your opinion. In fact you re-started an old thread here that had already been responded to (and dealt with a few times previous to that), but you missed the responses. Some time spent at the archives might have stopped you doing that too. Keith Addison In my experience, we effectively do ban railroad trains. We require them to have their own roads, and where they do intersect with automotive traffic, they require crossing gates or special warning signage, all erected at the expense of the rail operators. Pedestrians are often provided with their own paths (sidewalks, crosswalks etc) to keep them separated from automotive traffic to reduce injuries from contact. In some places, heavy trucks (over 5 tonnes) get their own roads, or at least their own lanes on highways. So far, we do not require SUVs and light trucks to have their own roads, but this may be primarily because their appearance in large quantities is a relatively new phenomenon. As for the tone of this list, I think if you review this thread, no one here has proposed a ban on SUVs. We had a couple of posters who chose to interpret some comments in that way. We do have some folks (including me) that would prefer to see drivers of heavy SUVs obtain additional licensing to operate these vehicles to ensure they know how they differ from smaller vehicles with lower centers of gravity. Rollovers are a greater concern with SUVs and other high clearance vehicles than those with lower CGs. Larger equipment is topical, as it often uses diesel engines. Still, I don't plan to use a large diesel truck for commuting over a smaller vehicle just because it can run biodiesel. Darryl McMahon Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Mark: He is an ex-Nam vet. He only has US weapons. The tanks are only a small part of his private collection. He also has helos, Armor personal carriers(APC). A little bit of everything. He has been in the local paper few times. He has permits to create a memorial to fallen vets. His place is 1 hour North of Chicago next to the West side of Interstate 94. Harley -Original Message- From: Mark Foltarz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:19 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Wow! Any German or Russian metal? Hey, fire them all up and it could be like Kirsk summer of '43! Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hakan: Off subject. sorry, but 20 miles south of where I live. There is a gentlemen that collects and rents out US tanks, and APC. Old Sherman's to newer M-60s. All the guns are spiked and welded. I hear they are not cheap to rent but he has a open field that you can take one out and play. Harley -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:12 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Greg, Absolutely and I envy you. Being in the signal corps the limit for me was bandwagon truck (wheel in front) and other larger/smaller vehicles with wheels. I started as communication specialist with Morse, codification and that stuff, but after a transfer the slots for this in the new place was filled. Since I had professional licence for Taxi, Buses and Trucks (financed my studies that way), I did some time on transportation support, when waiting for assignment. Finally I ended up as group leader for quality testing of electronic equipment/material deliveries. I would have loved to try or learn to drive a tank -:). Hakan At 10:42 AM 2/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
and they make almost no sound, compaired to the m60. greg m -Original Message- From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears A tank, very much like the kind being sent to the gulf. The main difference is the ones being sent to the gulf are the advanced model and have a 120 mm main gun, a over pressure NBC system, and a few more bells and whistles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Perry Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 17:52 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears OK, I'll bite: What the heck is a 62 ton M-1 Abrems? Perry - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Dear Dom, If you go to the link that explains my position you will find that I do not suggest any ban on SUV. This type of vehicle are useful or recreation for some people. I suggest, 1. That as much as possible these vehicles should be used in the environment that they designed for, instead of an environment that they are unsuitable for. It is an off road vehicle and it should be more of them in this environment and less of them in the on road environment. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Because of that the above points are not in effect, many accident with fatal outcome for the owners and innocent people are happening. More than for other types of vehicles and many of them could be avoided with my suggestions. Hakan At 09:20 PM 2/26/2003 -0600, you wrote: That's probably one of the most lame answers I have heard in a very long time. I can assure you that the person who was in the SUV does not agree. Railroad trains can kill SUVs and Yugos can kill pedestrians. Should we ban railroad trains and Yugos or SUVs and pedestrians? We probably should ban cars below the size of an SUV because they are the most unsafe of vehicles when involved in a accident. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Domenick V. Amato wrote: That's probably one of the most lame answers I have heard in a very long time. I can assure you that the person who was in the SUV does not agree. Railroad trains can kill SUVs and Yugos can kill pedestrians. Should we ban railroad trains and Yugos or SUVs and pedestrians? We probably should ban cars below the size of an SUV because they are the most unsafe of vehicles when involved in a accident. In my experience, we effectively do ban railroad trains. We require them to have their own roads, and where they do intersect with automotive traffic, they require crossing gates or special warning signage, all erected at the expense of the rail operators. Pedestrians are often provided with their own paths (sidewalks, crosswalks etc) to keep them separated from automotive traffic to reduce injuries from contact. In some places, heavy trucks (over 5 tonnes) get their own roads, or at least their own lanes on highways. So far, we do not require SUVs and light trucks to have their own roads, but this may be primarily because their appearance in large quantities is a relatively new phenomenon. As for the tone of this list, I think if you review this thread, no one here has proposed a ban on SUVs. We had a couple of posters who chose to interpret some comments in that way. We do have some folks (including me) that would prefer to see drivers of heavy SUVs obtain additional licensing to operate these vehicles to ensure they know how they differ from smaller vehicles with lower centers of gravity. Rollovers are a greater concern with SUVs and other high clearance vehicles than those with lower CGs. Larger equipment is topical, as it often uses diesel engines. Still, I don't plan to use a large diesel truck for commuting over a smaller vehicle just because it can run biodiesel. Darryl McMahon Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
- Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Greg, Absolutely and I envy you. Being in the signal corps the limit for me was bandwagon truck (wheel in front) and other larger/smaller vehicles with wheels. I started as communication specialist with Morse, codification and that stuff, but after a transfer the slots for this in the new place was filled. Since I had professional licence for Taxi, Buses and Trucks (financed my studies that way), I did some time on transportation support, when waiting for assignment. Finally I ended up as group leader for quality testing of electronic equipment/material deliveries. I would have loved to try or learn to drive a tank -:). Hakan At 10:42 AM 2/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
It was fun, I admit that, not as much fun as firing the main gun, but, did it more often. Funny thing, when it came time for my folks to teach me to drive, they used a '72 Mercury Grand Marquee 4 dr. station wagon, ( not just big, but very big ). Then my first car was a '71 Merc. Montego, another large vehical( what can I say, it was free ). I spent 8 years driving big vehicles, after first learning to drive, and it just seems natural. I don't have any respect for the people who zip in on out of traffic in their small cars just because they can, and turn around and deride me for driving a large vehical because it's a danger to them. I have driven small vehicles since my first car gave up the ghost, and the last was a Subaru that barley got 25 mpg on a good day ( this one to just died ) so what do I do? I get a Toyota Land Cruiser ( diesel ) I'm figuring to get about 30 mpg. I figure that a larger vehical that has better mileage is better than trying to resuscitate, the Subaru. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 13:11 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Greg, Absolutely and I envy you. I would have loved to try or learn to drive a tank -:). Hakan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
1st Cav - Ft Hood. Greg H. - Original Message - From: greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 14:49 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears where? i was in 3AD Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
OK, I'll bite: What the heck is a 62 ton M-1 Abrems? Perry - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
where? i was in 3AD -Original Message- From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
What is luxo junk to one is comfort and safety to another. The general public votes with its pocket book for SUVs and pickup trucks. Fifty million Americans can't be politically incorrect. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:19 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans and trucks used by service people, are they also being considered SUV's?Who made the decision of what constituted a SUV? Mater of fact what does constitutes a SUV, and why? Confused in Wisconsin Harley -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:49 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency http://ens-news.com/ens/feb2003/2003-02-19-09.asp Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency WASHINGTON, DC, February 19, 2003 (ENS) - American automakers say meeting a new higher fuel efficiency standard for light trucks, as proposed by the Bush administration, would carry a prohibitive cost. The three largest U.S. automakers - General Motors Corporation, Ford Motor Company and DaimlerChrysler AG - have filed papers with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration arguing that a proposal to increase fuel economy standards for light trucks by 1.5 miles per gallon could cost the companies billions of dollars. To meet the new standards, automakers might need to make trucks lighter, which would make them less safe, the companies said. Last December, the NHTSA proposed to mandate the small increase in the fuel efficiency of light trucks and sport utility vehicles (SUVs) between model years 2005-2007, boosting economy from a fleet average of 20.7 miles per gallon (mpg) to 22.2 mpg. The light truck standard has remained at 20.7 mpg since 1996, and the standard for cars has been held at 27.5 miles per gallon. Critics of the proposal say it shortchanges American consumers and national security because automakers already have the technology to raise fuel economy much more. The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) said an analysis of the proposal shows that what the administration is proposing is less aggressive than what the automakers have said they would do voluntarily by 2005. In 2000, Ford Motor Co. committed to improving
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
I agree. The world seems only to think in sweeping generalities. Sweeping generalities are almost all wrong. My Mazda Miata, possibly the smallest car made, is lucky to get 24 mpg. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans and trucks used by service people, are they also being considered SUV's?Who made the decision of what constituted a SUV? Mater of fact what does constitutes a SUV, and why? Confused in Wisconsin Harley -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:49 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency http://ens-news.com/ens/feb2003/2003-02-19-09.asp Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency WASHINGTON, DC, February 19, 2003 (ENS) - American automakers say meeting a new higher fuel efficiency standard for light trucks, as proposed by the Bush administration, would carry a prohibitive cost. The three largest U.S. automakers - General Motors Corporation, Ford Motor Company and DaimlerChrysler AG - have filed papers with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration arguing that a proposal to increase fuel economy standards for light trucks by 1.5 miles per gallon could cost the companies billions of dollars. To meet the new standards, automakers might need to make trucks lighter, which would make them less safe, the companies said. Last December, the NHTSA proposed
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
That's probably one of the most lame answers I have heard in a very long time. I can assure you that the person who was in the SUV does not agree. Railroad trains can kill SUVs and Yugos can kill pedestrians. Should we ban railroad trains and Yugos or SUVs and pedestrians? We probably should ban cars below the size of an SUV because they are the most unsafe of vehicles when involved in a accident. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans and trucks used by service people, are they also being considered SUV's?Who made the decision of what constituted a SUV? Mater of fact what does constitutes a SUV, and why? Confused in Wisconsin Harley
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Why is it that so many of the people in those sweatshops that you mention want to become as grotesquely averse to responsible resource management as we are? In fact, they are more destructive of the environment than we are. Having so little to begin with they often turn to the nature and the environment to get what ever they can to survive. We use more resources but may well be causing less damage in the process. In addition we are, as a group, working to repair past errors. Our environment, while certainly not perfect, is getting better. Isn't this type of responsible improvement what this biofuels discussion group is all about? Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Do you mean trivia like blood diamonds, sweat shop prepared designer clothing, harp seal coats and whale meat? Probably not. Even those trinkets that have been banned are coming back into fashion under new rules of rationalization. Elephant ivory, rare hardwoods, turtle soup... As for the fundamental human population problem? The problem is a little more fundamental than that. It's not the population that is the primary problem. It's the human mindset that is grotesquely averse to responsible resource management, inclusive of all the political precursors. Disposing of a few humans here and there only stunts the primary problemKind of like putting a temporary patch of Medicaire, Medicaid and Social Security systems in the US. Eventually they will go bankrupt if the core problems are not addressed. Oh.and that Volvo and SUV? I'd trade them in for a Golf and a Lupo if I were you. Not quite the status symbols as your present fleetbut then you're not in it for status (or are you?). (Just bemusing Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Hah! --- Domenick V. Amato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is luxo junk to one is comfort and safety to another. The general public votes with its pocket book for SUVs and pickup trucks. Fifty million Americans can't be politically incorrect. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:19 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans and trucks used by service people, are they also being considered SUV's?Who made the decision of what constituted a SUV? Mater of fact what does constitutes a SUV, and why? Confused in Wisconsin Harley -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:49 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency http://ens-news.com/ens/feb2003/2003-02-19-09.asp Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency WASHINGTON, DC, February 19, 2003 (ENS) - American automakers say meeting a new higher fuel efficiency standard for light trucks, as proposed by the Bush administration, would carry a prohibitive cost. The three largest U.S. automakers - General Motors Corporation, Ford Motor Company and DaimlerChrysler AG - have filed papers with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration arguing that a proposal to increase fuel economy standards for light trucks by 1.5 miles per gallon could cost the companies billions of dollars. To meet the new standards, automakers might need to make trucks lighter, which would make them less safe, the companies said. Last December, the NHTSA proposed to mandate the small increase in the fuel efficiency of light trucks and sport utility vehicles (SUVs) between model years 2005-2007, boosting economy from a fleet average of 20.7 miles per gallon (mpg) to 22.2 mpg. The light truck standard has remained at 20.7 mpg since 1996, and the standard for cars has been held at 27.5 miles per gallon. Critics of the proposal say it shortchanges American consumers and national security because automakers already have the technology to raise fuel economy much more. The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) said an analysis of the proposal shows that what
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Ken Basterfield wrote: - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken Haven't you been following it, Ken? The CAFE standards business, the big tax breaks for SUVs (but not for hybrids)? If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Not really - it's a myth. Or at least if you want to propose it as a reason for hunger and poverty it's a myth, and indeed for environmental degradation. That has been addressed here, a number of times. Check this out: http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger If you're proposing it as a problem, or THE problem, per se, that's also a myth, plenty of room still. If you look at the eco-footprint data, which isn't as simplistic as it's sometimes said to be, it comes down to the same thing - the rich industrialized-country populations have massive footprints, much bigger than their countries, others don't, and the inequity is much the same as that behind poverty and hunger, and behind the 4% of the world's population that are Americans using 25% of the world's energy supply - using or wasting. Which brings us back to SUVs. Um, what nutters do we get on this page? Regards Keith Dear Keith, I think I understand, this is the anti US page! sincerely, Ken Really. You got a considered response, which is a hell of a lot more than I got. Anti-US? So what are you saying, exactly? That it's not true that the 4% of the world's population that are Americans use 25% of the world's energy supply? If so, may I suggest you provide some rather solid backing for that view? I suppose it somehow escaped your attention that most of what you and a handful of others like to term anti-US and America-bashing or whatever that's been posted here has been written by Americans? So they're all anti-US, these rather well-informed Americans? Is there not some slight difference between America and the current policies of the current regime? Anyone dissenting is anti-US? Yet in the next breath you and the war-party will be yelling about democracy. No disconnect there, no, not at all, no disconnects anywhere, as long as you keep your head buried in the sand. Or somewhere. You raised the issue of population, along with a sneer, I responded to that, you dismissed it out of hand with another foolish sneer. So what will you do about the questions above? Yet another sneer? But you're not one of the nutters we get on this page, eh? Keith - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Do you mean trivia like blood diamonds, sweat shop prepared designer clothing, harp seal coats and whale meat? Probably not. Even those trinkets that have been banned are coming back into fashion under new rules of rationalization. Elephant ivory, rare hardwoods, turtle soup... As for the fundamental human population problem? The problem is a little more fundamental than that. It's not the population that is the primary problem. It's the human mindset that is grotesquely averse to responsible resource management, inclusive of all the political precursors. Disposing of a few humans here and there only stunts the primary problemKind of like putting a temporary patch of Medicaire, Medicaid and Social Security systems in the US. Eventually they will go bankrupt if the core problems are not addressed. Oh.and that Volvo and SUV? I'd trade them in for a Golf and a Lupo if I were you. Not quite the status symbols as your present fleetbut then you're not in it for status (or are you?). (Just bemusing Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 4:03 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Sorry Jess, Your message implies that the fault lays with improperly trained young adults, as if the adults are somehow disassociated from the myriads of fatalities involving SUVs. And, since no one asked Get rid of the power steering on vehicles and you'd probably get rid of a high number of accidents attributable to over correction. Replace it with rack and pinion and you'd find people driving in manners more suitable to the road conditions (which oddly enough are filled with oncoming projectiles of similar speed) and driver skill. In adverse driving conditions (weather, speed, road or any combination thereof), it's the closest thing short of a death sentence to not drive with both hands on a power steering equipped vehicle - just to prevent over steer. Throw in inexperienced drivers and you have a recipe for even greater disaster. (And no. That's not simply a matter of personal opinion.) Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: studio53 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears The last time I looked at my Isuzu Trooper 4x4 sitting in driveway, it wasn't killing anyone. SUV's don't kill people. People kill people because it's not a requirement of the law to have any specific training on a motor vehicle, so a parent letting their child or teenager into a large 4x4 vehicle without having provided any type of prior training is asking for trouble. Jess -- - Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans and trucks used by service people, are they also being considered SUV's?Who made the decision of what constituted a SUV? Mater of fact what does constitutes a SUV, and why? Confused in Wisconsin Harley -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:49 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken Haven't you been following it, Ken? The CAFE standards business, the big tax breaks for SUVs (but not for hybrids)? If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Not really - it's a myth. Or at least if you want to propose it as a reason for hunger and poverty it's a myth, and indeed for environmental degradation. That has been addressed here, a number of times. Check this out: http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger If you're proposing it as a problem, or THE problem, per se, that's also a myth, plenty of room still. If you look at the eco-footprint data, which isn't as simplistic as it's sometimes said to be, it comes down to the same thing - the rich industrialized-country populations have massive footprints, much bigger than their countries, others don't, and the inequity is much the same as that behind poverty and hunger, and behind the 4% of the world's population that are Americans using 25% of the world's energy supply - using or wasting. Which brings us back to SUVs. Um, what nutters do we get on this page? Regards Keith Dear Keith, I think I understand, this is the anti US page! sincerely, Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Mine doesn't kill either. Neither do the ones I've converted to wvo. I do have some near misses every day with soccer moms, but they are dangerous no matter what vehicle they drive. There is nothing inherently dangerous or evil about a SUV. like anything, they can be misused. The diesel ones get good mileage, and are excellent biodiesel/wvo showcases. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Ken, Maybe it is bad wording from an ignorant foreigner and in this case I have to apologize. For the rest I have to refer to my and others postings in the Biofuel archive, there are no real reason for me to repeat the discussion. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messagesearch?query=SUV I tried search on, http://archive.nnytech.net/ but it did not work. Hakan At 07:57 PM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
My concern is with a group of trucks and vans being demonized just because of their looks. Because of demonizing the standards are being changed. What is going to be changed? How many of you may remember Ford motor Company producing the F series truck with the light weight frames in the late 70's and early 80's. Because of the oil embargo back then. Ford used a new light weight frame for pickup trucks. The trucks did get better mileage, but they also start bending frames. Hauling large loads or snow plowing could bend the frame on your new truck. If you put a snow plow on your truck, you also had to buy and install frame stiffeners.So I am to trust a person or group of people that probably are not even able to check their own motor oil, to make engineering decisions due to look? Yes that sounds about right. I forgot they are the ones that decided my snow plow truck is an SUV. Harley -Original Message- From: Steve Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:03 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Mine doesn't kill either. Neither do the ones I've converted to wvo. I do have some near misses every day with soccer moms, but they are dangerous no matter what vehicle they drive. There is nothing inherently dangerous or evil about a SUV. like anything, they can be misused. The diesel ones get good mileage, and are excellent biodiesel/wvo showcases. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Naw, Ken. This is just the anti-non-thinking page. It has universal appeal, save for non-thinkers. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken Haven't you been following it, Ken? The CAFE standards business, the big tax breaks for SUVs (but not for hybrids)? If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Not really - it's a myth. Or at least if you want to propose it as a reason for hunger and poverty it's a myth, and indeed for environmental degradation. That has been addressed here, a number of times. Check this out: http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger If you're proposing it as a problem, or THE problem, per se, that's also a myth, plenty of room still. If you look at the eco-footprint data, which isn't as simplistic as it's sometimes said to be, it comes down to the same thing - the rich industrialized-country populations have massive footprints, much bigger than their countries, others don't, and the inequity is much the same as that behind poverty and hunger, and behind the 4% of the world's population that are Americans using 25% of the world's energy supply - using or wasting. Which brings us back to SUVs. Um, what nutters do we get on this page? Regards Keith Dear Keith, I think I understand, this is the anti US page! sincerely, Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Mr. Falk: Ignorant you are not. I can not speak for the other people in this group. I many not always agreed with you, but I personally respect your opinion. You know what you want, and are trying to accomplish your goals. Have a good one Harley -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 3:41 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, Maybe it is bad wording from an ignorant foreigner and in this case I have to apologize. For the rest I have to refer to my and others postings in the Biofuel archive, there are no real reason for me to repeat the discussion. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messagesearch?query=SUV I tried search on, http://archive.nnytech.net/ but it did not work. Hakan At 07:57 PM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost the same as an old Volvo. Old range rovers was very thirsty as all off road vehicles. Volvo 940 Is the world mad or is it just some of the other nutters we get on the page. If you really want to save the world why not address the fundamental human population problem, or is this just a little bit too close to reality. Ken - Original Message - From: Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 5:19 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
, SUVs have also made the roads more dangerous for others. The kill rate, as Bradsher calls it, for SUVs is simply jaw-dropping. For every one life saved by driving an SUV, five others will be taken. Government researchers have found that a behemoth like the four-ton Chevy Tahoe kills 122 people for every 1 million models on the road; by comparison, the Honda Accord only kills 21. Injuries in SUV-related accidents are likewise more severe. Part of the reason for the high kill rate is that cars offer very little protection against an SUV hitting them from the side - not because of the weight, but because of the design. When a car is hit from the side by another car, the victim is 6.6 times as likely to die as the aggressor. But if the aggressor is an SUV, the car driver's relative chance of dying rises to 30 to 1, because the hood of an SUV is so high off the ground. Rather than hitting the reinforced doors of a car with its bumper, an SUV will slam into more vulnerable areas and strike a car driver in the head or chest, where injuries are more life-threatening. But before you get an SUV just for defensive purposes, think again. Any safety gains that might accrue are cancelled out by the high risk of rollover deaths, which usually don't involve other cars. Ironically, SUVs are particularly dangerous for children, whose safety is often the rationale for buying them in the first place. Because these beasts are so big and hard to see around (and often equipped with dark-tinted glass that's illegal in cars), SUV drivers have a troubling tendency to run over their own kids. Just recently, in October, a wealthy Long Island doctor made headlines after he ran over and killed his 2-year-old in the driveway with his BMW X5. He told police he thought he'd hit the curb. From: Bumper Mentality, By Stephanie Mencimer, Washington Monthly, December 20, 2002 http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14839 http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/ frontline: rollover | PBS Rollover - the hidden history of the SUV. They're the most popular vehicle in America. Are they also among the most dengerous? Unsafe on any tire? How safe are SUVs? Should the government do more to protect consumers? An overview of the SUV's hidden history and a look at the politics of auto safety. Before you buy an SUV... Here are a few facts and statistics you ought to consider, including questions and answers on SUVs and safety, and links to current consumer information on the Web. Interviews Former top regulators, a longtime Ford marketer, a prominent plaintiff attorney, an award-winning New York Times reporter, and an insurance industry safety analyst. Nixon and Detroit - inside the Oval Office Web-exclusive audio of Richard Nixon's 1971 meeting with Henry Ford II and Lee Iacocca, and recently released documents revealing Nixon's efforts on behalf of the auto industry. And so on and on. Ken Basterfield writes: At 07:57 PM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: I can assure you that mine doesn't kill. It is far to well behaved. Never mind keep churning out the dogma and forget the realities. Like you, you mean? I'll pass thanks. Your Range Rover is labelled an SUV in the US, but, as I'm sure you know very well, it has very little in common with a typical American SUV and shares few of the unsafety features of a typical SUV. It was designed as a highly capable off-road vehicle and is still that, first built more than 30 years ago and the basic design hasn't changed much since then. There were no SUVs 30 years ago, nor anything even remotely like them. And you are trolling, Mr Basterfield. Keith - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Ken, At 09:03 AM 2/22/2003 +, you wrote: Can some one explain to me what all the fuss and prejudice is about SUV's? They kill. http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/kazman.shtml And search for SUV on the biofuel list, it is a very well debated issue, with many expressed views. http://archive.nnytech.net/ Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Maybe it is the same, it is people that are prepared to kill for diamonds and we do not think that it is acceptable behavior. I do not see anyone wanting to ban SUV as a useful or fun OFF ROAD vehicle. My range rover regularly does 30 mp imperial gallon, yet my supposedly acceptable Volvo can only manage 19 What Volvo do you have, a bus, truck or the military jeep (they call it the puppy in Sweden)? I had several normal Volvo and never had one who did 19 mp imperial gallon other than 25 years ago, when I was averaging around 110 mph on autobahn in Germany. My impression is that the new range rovers are almost
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
I believe an SUV is defined by the frame on which it is built. This is essentially a truck frame. Being classified as a truck, the SUV also qualifies for a tax deduction that was originally meant for famers and jobbers needing a big vehicle to make a living. Rest assured, the auto makers want this to continue as incentive to buyers. The SUV as it has come to be known is a very profitable beast for the automakers. If you have ever seen one in a salvage yard you might notice what vaccuous pieces of luxo junk they actually are - merely pounds of molded plastic and glass set an SUV apart from its ancestor the truck. The bottom line for the auto maker is that they make scads of cash on the sale of these monsters - they took a truck and gussied it up. Even though government mandates on anything goes against my grain, as long as the government takes money out of my wallet for emission tests on my little car, I will always oppose promotion of the SUV. Also, one might be wise to realize that politicians who did not vote in support of or actively pursue an increase in the C.A.F.E. ( Corporate Average Fuel Economy ) standards can not be trusted with anything at all - period. Who in their right mind and with good consious can allow the production of 8mpg vehicles. Notice who of your state representatives did not do their job and let them know. Isn't it amazing that in these days of science and wonder that they make a car that gets 8 mpg? Even more amazing are the atitudes of the people who drive them. Do a little sociology game and make some observations about the people you see or know who drive SUVs. How about them No War for Oil stickers on the back of a Lincoln Navigator? Heh who are they kidding, how much prozac does it take to be blind of the reality that we are hostage to foreign energy sources? These bonds are our own doing. We as individuals will make our own freedom. Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is how did a work pickup truck become a Sports Utility vehicle (SUV)?. I am missing that some how. I grew up on a farm, and we always had a truck. We where not part of the upper class. I must admit once we got our first 4 wheel drive, we never went back to 2 wheel drive. The mileage was never the best, but we worked the heck out of them. Either plowing snow or hauling something.Also the work vans and trucks used by service people, are they also being considered SUV's?Who made the decision of what constituted a SUV? Mater of fact what does constitutes a SUV, and why? Confused in Wisconsin Harley -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:49 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency http://ens-news.com/ens/feb2003/2003-02-19-09.asp Automakers Oppose Increased Fuel Efficiency WASHINGTON, DC, February 19, 2003 (ENS) - American automakers say meeting a new higher fuel efficiency standard for light trucks, as proposed by the Bush administration, would carry a prohibitive cost. The three largest U.S. automakers - General Motors Corporation, Ford Motor Company and DaimlerChrysler AG - have filed papers with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration arguing that a proposal to increase fuel economy standards for light trucks by 1.5 miles per gallon could cost the companies billions of dollars. To meet the new standards, automakers might need to make trucks lighter, which would make them less safe, the companies said. Last December, the NHTSA proposed to mandate the small increase in the fuel efficiency of light trucks and sport utility vehicles (SUVs) between model years 2005-2007, boosting economy from a fleet average of 20.7 miles per gallon (mpg) to 22.2 mpg. The light truck standard has remained at 20.7 mpg since 1996, and the standard for cars has been held at 27.5 miles per gallon. Critics of the proposal say it shortchanges American consumers and national security because automakers already have the technology to raise fuel economy much more. The Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) said an analysis of the proposal shows that what the administration is proposing is less aggressive than what the automakers have said they would do voluntarily by 2005. In 2000, Ford Motor Co. committed to improving the fuel economy of its fleet of SUVs by 25 percent over five years. Assuming Ford made no improvements to its other light trucks, its commitment would yield a 1.8 mpg increase for its light truck category by 2005. By contrast, the administration's proposal would give the automaker two more years to improve its light trucks by 1.5 mpg. But Ford joined GM and DaimlerChrysler on Friday in saying that even the meager increase proposed by the NHTSA is too
