RE: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH
I think I was told by my chem prof that many years ago annhydrous ethanol was taken the last 5 points by dropping metallic sodium into the container. Need to be careful re fire using this method. -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 11:05 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I took 20mL of 95% EtOH and subjected it to -20 degrees C. >for 30 minutes, > > then took it down to -30 deg. C for 30 minutes. No ice was formed in either > > instance. I did not feel it was necessary to go much colder than >that, but I can > > if any one wants me to. > > > > So, freezing is not a viable method of getting anhydrous EtOH for BioD > > production. I hope that answers your question, Robert. Cheers, Joe > > > >Thanks, Joe! > >Perhaps it might work as a means to reduce separation energy BEFORE >distillation. I've read somewhere that some fuel injected engines >can operate on a >50 / 50 mix of ethanol and water. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch3 - see ALCOHOL INJECTION You can make 100 proof with a simple pot still. >A more pertinent question may be this: Is anyone actually >distilling engine >fuel and using it on a regular basis? They do, but they might not admit it. >It seems that regulatory hurdles and a rather >poor energy balance mitigate against ethanol on a small scale. For >those of use who >do not drive diesels, this is unfortunate. For diesel drivers too - ethyl esters is a most attractive option. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ >robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 5/31/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 5/31/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I took 20mL of 95% EtOH and subjected it to -20 degrees C. >for 30 minutes, > > then took it down to -30 deg. C for 30 minutes. No ice was formed in either > > instance. I did not feel it was necessary to go much colder than >that, but I can > > if any one wants me to. > > > > So, freezing is not a viable method of getting anhydrous EtOH for BioD > > production. I hope that answers your question, Robert. Cheers, Joe > > > >Thanks, Joe! > >Perhaps it might work as a means to reduce separation energy BEFORE >distillation. I've read somewhere that some fuel injected engines >can operate on a >50 / 50 mix of ethanol and water. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch3 - see ALCOHOL INJECTION You can make 100 proof with a simple pot still. >A more pertinent question may be this: Is anyone actually >distilling engine >fuel and using it on a regular basis? They do, but they might not admit it. >It seems that regulatory hurdles and a rather >poor energy balance mitigate against ethanol on a small scale. For >those of use who >do not drive diesels, this is unfortunate. For diesel drivers too - ethyl esters is a most attractive option. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ >robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I took 20mL of 95% EtOH and subjected it to -20 degrees C. for 30 > minutes, > then took it down to -30 deg. C for 30 minutes. No ice was formed in either > instance. I did not feel it was necessary to go much colder than that, but I > can > if any one wants me to. > > So, freezing is not a viable method of getting anhydrous EtOH for BioD > production. I hope that answers your question, Robert. Cheers, Joe > Thanks, Joe! Perhaps it might work as a means to reduce separation energy BEFORE distillation. I've read somewhere that some fuel injected engines can operate on a 50 / 50 mix of ethanol and water. A more pertinent question may be this: Is anyone actually distilling engine fuel and using it on a regular basis? It seems that regulatory hurdles and a rather poor energy balance mitigate against ethanol on a small scale. For those of use who do not drive diesels, this is unfortunate. robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Freezing EtOH
Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 OK. When I posted that the EtOH would act as an antifreeze and keep the water from freezing out of the solution I assumed we were talking high concentrations of alcohol and trying to make it anhydrous. Say good distillation gives you 190 proof ethanol (95%) freezing will not drop out the water. I took 20mL of 95% EtOH and subjected it to -20 degrees C. for 30 minutes, then took it down to -30 deg. C for 30 minutes. No ice was formed in either instance. I did not feel it was necessary to go much colder than that, but I can if any one wants me to. So, freezing is not a viable method of getting anhydrous EtOH for BioD production. I hope that answers your question, Robert. Cheers, Joe Harmon Seaver wrote: > You'd have to have an awful lot of ethanol to keep it from freezing. > Strong beer (5-7%) freezes pretty easily. People used to "distill" their hard > cider by putting a barrel out to freeze. Any fermented solution you can you can > freeze fairly quickly -- the % of ethanol will never be above 16% at max, and > you need at least 50% alky to "anti-freeze" a solution. Depends on how cold it > gets, I guess, but zero should pretty well do it for any "wine" or "beer". > I got the idea from thinking about "ice wine" and "hard cider" that's made in the Okanagan Valley where I used to live. The fermentation process for fuel ethanol or biodiesel ethanol is no different than that for beer or wine, and since the yeast die off well before the alcohol percentage reaches the high 'teens, I thought that such an approach would create a more favorable energy balance for ethanol fuel production in cold climates. It would be an interesting thing to try. Perhaps someone might experiment with this approach and post the results. Further, it would eliminate the problems associated with licensing a distillation apparatus. (No, officer, it's NOT a still, it's a refrigerator. . .) If it works, I wonder how the energy balance of refrigeration would compare to conventional distillation. robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
