RE: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
just an idea: i was thinking on a vegoil two tanks conversion using the exhaust to heat vegoil. if we put the vegoil tank on the rear part of the car and it goes to the engine on a copper pipe paralel to the exhaust pipe, close enough to be heated and far enough to not to reach too hight temperatures, and to use the return line with heated vegoil runing close to the incoming line on the oposite side of the exaust to heat the other side, perhaps this way we can get a simple conversion, or perhaps i've been drinking too much coffe and i need to sleep a bit more and not to think so much. anyone with more experience can tell me if this is possible? thanks in advance Manolo Roln Valencia, Spain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Promise to Quit Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/5vN8tD/AqSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
Thanks Ed, I was hoping you would join in as I consider you our resident SVO expert. I am forming the opinion from the studies I have seen that an optimum system (for maximum engine life) would warm the SVO to 170*C but coolant in engines only gets up to about 170*F. At 170*F SVO is approx. the viscosity of diesel at 10*C...I think. Would it be possible AND a good idea to warm the SVO further via electric heaters to closer to that optimum temperature e.g. 170*C? I realize this would require high temp components downline of such a heater and wonder if an electric heater could be applied to the metal fuel line between the injector pump and the injectors. I can't imagine the injectors would not be able to take the higher temp. but you would likely be more qualified to make that call. This may only be needed for DI engines as I also understand that indirect injection engines are able to warm the SVO enough after injection in the prechamber to avoid deposit accumulation. Unfortunately more and more DI engines seem to be manufactured and fewer vehicles are available with DI as time progresses. I would like to broaden the choice of vehicles for those that wish to convert to SVO and especially with computer controlled DI the only way to cope would seem to be to match the SVO viscosity to diesel as closely as possible. What is your opinion? Would this be redundant/overkill on a indirect inj. engine? As I first posted a perfect conversion would use off the shelf components as much as possible and I am very glad that Neoteric Fuels is able to provide many of them. I am very interested in the heater available from Neoteric and also felt that the do it yourself heaters I mentioned seem pretty crude in comparison...but I am trying to bring together ALL the info I can to provide a complete overview. I have seen one reference to a fuel heater that is essentially a length of metal pipe with a positive electrical connection on one end and a ground on the other. Current was run through this heating the length of pipe in between via elec. resistance. The fuel being run through the section of pipe is warmed as it passes through. Temperature is controlled by a probe on the end of the pipe where fuel comes out. Seemed very simple/reliable but couldn't find it as an off the shelf component. Is this similar to the fuel heater Neoteric sells? If not what is the max. temp Neoterics' fuel heater can achieve? Has anyone considered running an electrical resistance wire down the inside of the fuel/return lines? Kind of a simpler version of the pipe within a pipe concept. Low voltage/wattage? This could be used to warm the fuel enough to allow it to reach around 70*F so it would flow easily and thereby not strain either the injector pump or alternator. The SVO would then flow through a small under hood tank where its temperature would be boosted to coolant temp. and then pass directly to the fuel pump via a solenoid valve. Connections could be made on this tank for a vacuum gauge, a temp. probe, and a vent(for air purging w/ a vacuum source). What is your opinion Ed? If you have not tried this are you open to a collaboration? Thanks for your input. Dana snip __ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Break free. Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vN8tD/.pSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
From: Dana Linscott [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:46:15 -0800 (PST) To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm- Thanks Ed, I was hoping you would join in as I consider you our resident SVO expert. I am forming the opinion from the studies I have seen that an optimum system (for maximum engine life) would warm the SVO to 170*C but coolant in engines only gets up to about 170*F. At 170*F SVO is approx. the viscosity of diesel at 10*C...I think. Would it be possible AND a good idea to warm the SVO further via electric heaters to closer to that optimum temperature e.g. 170*C? I realize this would require high temp components downline of such a heater and wonder if an electric heater could be applied to the metal fuel line between the injector pump and the injectors. I can't imagine the injectors would not be able to take the higher temp. but you would likely be more qualified to make that call. Dana - I have seen a lot of different optimum temperatures for SVO in varous studies, and these range from 70¼C to 300¼C (!). It depends on the engine type (DI or IDI) and the fuel (type of vegoil) to some extent, but in general DI engines, it seems, really should have higher temps, or thinner fuel blends than is required for IDI engines. That's why I posted on the idea of ethanol blending with SVO a few times. That brought the required temp. (in that study, on that DI engine, on rapeseed oil), down from 150¼C to 80¼C. and also gave significant further particulate emissions reductions compared to rapeseed oil alone, already quite a bit lower than petrodiesel. So as we see wider availability of fuel grade ethanol, that will be interesting to follow since it coincides with wider use of DI engines. Steve mentioned a number of times the role of biodiesel as start/stop fuel and its solvent effect being beneficial in keeping deposits under control and I agree with that. If I am not using biodiesel, I personally use the premium diesel (in winter, for example) as start/stop fuel to get the benefit of the extra additives (Shell Ultra, is what I normally use), since that's what is available locally). I think that the Tessol-NADI product we are now making, blended @ 10% or so in the diesel fuel, may also be useful for this purpose (blending into regular diesel start/stop fuel), and will reduce the emissions of the cold-start-on-diesel phase, the high emissions stage on all engines. So despite its higher cost, as an additive for this purpose it may be of interest in SVO systems if biodiesel is not locally available for blending in with the diesel in winter or use @ B100 in warm weather. I think that trying to heat SVO to the high temperatures you mention might lead to other problems, amperage draw being the greatest problem certainly. This may only be needed for DI engines as I also understand that indirect injection engines are able to warm the SVO enough after injection in the prechamber to avoid deposit accumulation. The IDI engine provides for better mixing and combustion, bascially compensating for the higher viscosity of SVO relative to diesel fuel, even SVO heated to the usual ~70¼C. Unfortunately more and more DI engines seem to be manufactured and fewer vehicles are available with DI as time progresses. I would like to broaden the choice of vehicles for those that wish to convert to SVO and especially with computer controlled DI the only way to cope would seem to be to match the SVO viscosity to diesel as closely as possible. What is your opinion? Would this be redundant/overkill on a indirect inj. engine? Yes it would be overkill. IDI engines do not need the same tactics and temperatures as DI, and especially computer controlled DI which requires the most effort and cost for SVO use and about which there is the most debate re: longer term use of SVO. We still advise against use of SVO in DI engines and especially computer controlled DI, the computer can't deal with even slight changes in viscosity. Since these engines are cleaner in the first place, my opinion is that we want to focus for right now on the millions of older IDI engines that will be in use for decades , and offer affordable systems and devices for those first. As I first posted a perfect conversion would use off the shelf components as much as possible and I am very glad that Neoteric Fuels is able to provide many of them. I am very interested in the heater available from Neoteric and also felt that the do it yourself heaters I mentioned seem pretty crude in comparison...but I am trying to bring together ALL the info I can to provide a complete overview. I have seen one reference to a fuel heater that is essentially a length of metal pipe with a positive electrical connection on one end and a ground on the other. Current was run through this heating the length of pipe in between via elec
RE: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
To rephrase the question to get my own specific answer: would it be possible to get or make a self regulating electric heater that could raise the temperature of the incoming oil from a coolant heated 70C to the optimum 140C? or maybe only the diff between 25C (ambient) and 70C= 45C (temp rise from ambient), that is, preheat with coolant in the HIH, then heat further with electric to, say, 115C. would this, then allow one to more safely use SVO in a DI engine? anton Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Stop Smoking Now Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/2vN8tD/_pSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
It should be possible, but we'll have to prototype one and get back to the group on it in the New Year. This takes time and money every time out, so can I ask for expressions of interest to be emailed to me directly? If we get enough interest in this idea and commitments for at least 20 at $75 US each including relay (plus shipping and applicable taxes), in the next week or two, we'll do our best on pushing it along and get back to those who have committed to them once ready, and ask for payment and actual order at that time. ? Don't say you want one if you're not fairly sure about it though, ok? Thanks! The higher temp. should assist in better droplet formation and hence combustion in the DI engine than would be the case at the lower temp. Edward Beggs www.biofuels.ca [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Anton Berteaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:27:10 -0800 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm- To rephrase the question to get my own specific answer: would it be possible to get or make a self regulating electric heater that could raise the temperature of the incoming oil from a coolant heated 70C to the optimum 140C? or maybe only the diff between 25C (ambient) and 70C= 45C (temp rise from ambient), that is, preheat with coolant in the HIH, then heat further with electric to, say, 115C. would this, then allow one to more safely use SVO in a DI engine? anton Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Quit now for Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/0vN8tD/9pSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
Ed, Sign me up for one - for a 4 cyl. Tdi. And thanks, Anton, for pushing development of this new product. Craig Neoteric Biofuels Inc. wrote: It should be possible, but we'll have to prototype one and get back to the group on it in the New Year. This takes time and money every time out, so can I ask for expressions of interest to be emailed to me directly? If we get enough interest in this idea and commitments for at least 20 at $75 US each including relay (plus shipping and applicable taxes), in the next week or two, we'll do our best on pushing it along and get back to those who have committed to them once ready, and ask for payment and actual order at that time. ? Don't say you want one if you're not fairly sure about it though, ok? Thanks! The higher temp. should assist in better droplet formation and hence combustion in the DI engine than would be the case at the lower temp. Edward Beggs www.biofuels.ca [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Anton Berteaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:27:10 -0800 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm- To rephrase the question to get my own specific answer: would it be possible to get or make a self regulating electric heater that could raise the temperature of the incoming oil from a coolant heated 70C to the optimum 140C? or maybe only the diff between 25C (ambient) and 70C= 45C (temp rise from ambient), that is, preheat with coolant in the HIH, then heat further with electric to, say, 115C. would this, then allow one to more safely use SVO in a DI engine? anton Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Quit now for Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/0vN8tD/9pSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
Thanks Craig. Others? I am starting a folder on the side of the email program to put these into...??? ;-) EB From: craig reece [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:44:20 -0800 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm- Ed, Sign me up for one - for a 4 cyl. Tdi. And thanks, Anton, for pushing development of this new product. Craig Neoteric Biofuels Inc. wrote: It should be possible, but we'll have to prototype one and get back to the group on it in the New Year. This takes time and money every time out, so can I ask for expressions of interest to be emailed to me directly? If we get enough interest in this idea and commitments for at least 20 at $75 US each including relay (plus shipping and applicable taxes), in the next week or two, we'll do our best on pushing it along and get back to those who have committed to them once ready, and ask for payment and actual order at that time. ? Don't say you want one if you're not fairly sure about it though, ok? Thanks! The higher temp. should assist in better droplet formation and hence combustion in the DI engine than would be the case at the lower temp. Edward Beggs www.biofuels.ca [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Promise to Quit Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/5vN8tD/AqSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
also, at what percentage should one mix the ethanol and how stable is the mix? anton It depends on the engine type (DI or IDI) and the fuel (type of vegoil) to some extent, but in general DI engines, it seems, really should have higher temps, or thinner fuel blends than is required for IDI engines. That's why I posted on the idea of ethanol blending with SVO a few times. That brought the required temp. (in that study, on that DI engine, on rapeseed oil), down from 150¼C to 80¼C. and also gave significant further particulate emissions reductions compared to rapeseed oil alone, already quite a bit lower than petrodiesel. So as we see wider availability of fuel grade ethanol, that will be interesting to follow since it coincides with wider use of DI engines. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Stop Smoking Now Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/2vN8tD/_pSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm-
9% was the figure stated. I know that emulsifiers or cosolvents are used in blending ethanol with diesel (e-diesel), but not sure about what is used, how much, and stability of ethanol in SVO versus in diesel fuel. Also I am not up on any other engine effects of such use positive or negative, short or long term, so I'd like to know more on it before trying it. The emissions results were sure impressive though, and it did bring the viscosity and DI optimum temp. down (to 80¼C from 150¼C). Edward Beggs www.biofuels.ca From: Anton Berteaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:32:19 -0800 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm- also, at what percentage should one mix the ethanol and how stable is the mix? anton It depends on the engine type (DI or IDI) and the fuel (type of vegoil) to some extent, but in general DI engines, it seems, really should have higher temps, or thinner fuel blends than is required for IDI engines. That's why I posted on the idea of ethanol blending with SVO a few times. That brought the required temp. (in that study, on that DI engine, on rapeseed oil), down from 150¼C to 80¼C. and also gave significant further particulate emissions reductions compared to rapeseed oil alone, already quite a bit lower than petrodiesel. So as we see wider availability of fuel grade ethanol, that will be interesting to follow since it coincides with wider use of DI engines. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/75YKVC/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SVO/WVO conversion - VEG-Therm
Just a few notes on the viscosity item, and on VEG-Therm electric heaters, in response to Dana's post: 412vdc heaters are mentioned in quite a few posts and are available through Neoteric Fuels. I have also seen posts that suggest that you can make your own with a little ingenuity out of glow plugs threaded into the wall of a small pipe which SVO is the run through. It appears that the energy to use only 12vdc to warm SVO to 170*F is more than practical for most installation though I think an electric SVO warmer activated by a 170*F open on rise snap disk switch might shorten the time till switching to SVO from diesel and help ensure that SVO going to the injectors is of correct viscosity for efficient combustion. If a warmer temperature than 170*F is desirable for greater efficiency an electric warmer might be set to as high as 200*F. Does anyone know of any research on temp of SVO vs. efficiency? Dana - 150¼C is cited as the actual temperture required to give viscosity and droplet formation same as diesel, this was in a direct injection engine. SVO systems rarely achieve anywhere near this, with most operating at 70¼C or so, since this is the temperature that can be attained in most glycol-based systems under most driving conditions. It's a compromise. The engine will work on SVO at that temp, but it is not the temp. at which viscosity and droplet formation at the injectors equals diesel fuel. Our heater was set at that commonly used temperature, a balance between heating ideals and amperage requirements. It is self-regulating, having no external thermostat, as these are a little difficult to set to control accurately, and if a relay ever sticks the glow plug will continue to heat which could be a problem, whereas a self-regulating heater like ours will reduce amperage gradually and automatically depending on the SVO temperature. A nice feature. For example if fuel flow stops and the heater is still switched on, it will not overheat, even if something strange happens like a relay failure that does not respond to a signal from a thermostat to cut flow of power to the heater... or the opposite, a thermostat failure that does not send the signal in the first place. We found that by the time we had the cost of a glow plug, a good thermostat, good relay, time/material to make a housing, and have something that did not exhibit overshoot or underheat characteristics under widely varying rates of flow, that the cost and operation of the design we now have was a simpler way to go, and less to go wrong. Obviously we felt that in the longer term, enough others will begin to agree with that assessment and pay a little more than do it yourself price to have something that works quite well delivered to their door. It can also be used with a small underhood heat exchanger if desired, where there is no other hose in hose type heat exchanger, to give an in-between approach, where more than electric is desired, yet a full HIH is not easily installed or not wanted for some other reason. We've added one of these small units, quite effective and inexpensive, at $65 US. Not on the site yet, but soon! Regards, Edward Beggs www.biofuels.ca Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Promise to Quit Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/5vN8tD/AqSDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
