Re: [biofuel] The big picture
Hi MM There you go - a hacker in sheeple's clothing, LOL! You're certainly no slave, MM. I wonder if the real slaves aren't the people at the top of the ladder, the ones who think they're in control - such as Kenneth Lay, hopeless failures at life, what a waste. thx, and an interesting take on Lay. ... et al. Are these people really to be considered successful human beings? It seems to me they'll just have to come back and try again. Perhaps as a cockroach. My friend Prema, a Tibetan Buddhist nun, once remarked rather conversationally: It's not often a person gets the chance to live a human life, it's quite rare, one shouldn't waste such an opportunity. :-) Hack: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/hack.html Hacker: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/hacker.html I see a problem here that I did not see before. The term cracker, which is what hackers are recommending we use when we wish to connote hacker gone to the dark side or some such, has some slight built-in vernacular ambiguities. Is one talking about a safe cracker? Is one trying to connote drug use? (Crack cocaine). Is there some sort of racist ambiguity? (I'm not sure why but I seem to recall cracker being some sort of racial epithet from one of the races to another). White trash. Maybe there could be a new term for a malicious hacker. Or maybe just get better at using cracker. Yeah, that sounds ok now that I think it through a little. We'll see. Should be, if it gets used enough. The wonderful Jargon Lexicon gets into the background as usual - only back to Shakespeare this time, LOL! Looks like what King John called a cracker one would call an AH these days. cracker n. One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985 by hackers in defense against journalistic misuse of hacker (q.v., sense 8). An earlier attempt to establish `worm' in this sense around 1981-82 on Usenet was largely a failure. Use of both these neologisms reflects a strong revulsion against the theft and vandalism perpetrated by cracking rings. The neologism cracker in this sense may have been influenced not so much by the term safe-cracker as by the non-jargon term cracker, which in Middle English meant an obnoxious person (e.g., What cracker is this same that deafs our ears / With this abundance of superfluous breath? - Shakespeare's King John, Act II, Scene I) and in modern colloquial American English survives as a barely gentler synonym for white trash. While it is expected that any real hacker will have done some playful cracking and knows many of the basic techniques, anyone past larval stage is expected to have outgrown the desire to do so except for immediate, benign, practical reasons (for example, if it's necessary to get around some security in order to get some work done). Thus, there is far less overlap between hackerdom and crackerdom than the mundane reader misled by sensationalistic journalism might expect. Crackers tend to gather in small, tight-knit, very secretive groups that have little overlap with the huge, open poly-culture this lexicon describes; though crackers often like to describe themselves as hackers, most true hackers consider them a separate and lower form of life. Ethical considerations aside, hackers figure that anyone who can't imagine a more interesting way to play with their computers than breaking into someone else's has to be pretty losing. Some other reasons crackers are looked down on are discussed in the entries on cracking and phreaking. See also samurai, dark-side hacker, and hacker ethic. For a portrait of the typical teenage cracker, see warez d00dz That's right, blame it all on the press. :-) Hacking's similar to fettling - all the old factories used to have a fettler, when the machines broke he'd come and do a quick-fix so they'd work and production could continue until the engineers could get around to doing a proper repair job. A good fettler was highly skilled and very ingenious. I had some tailoring done this week, and it just reminded me of how certain occupations are terribly useful and may well be with us even a million years from now. One thing is it reminded me that even on Star Trek they have Tailors 300 years into the future (though no barbers prominently featured that I saw anyway). I knew some people in Hong Kong who'd fled the Communist victory in 1949 with literally nothing. (Unlike the poor Shanghai industrialists who arrived destitute and penniless with nothing but a few container-loads of gold...) Two come to mind. One, the editor of a Chinese newspaper when I knew him, did bring something, a set of Chinese chessmen and a board - not bulky, Chinese chess is different, the pieces are more like checkers pieces, round, flat disks, and the board is a piece of printed paper, it all easily fits in a pocket. He made a good living playing chess to all comers in the parks, with onlookers taking bets and him getting
Re: [biofuel] The big picture
see inserted comments murdoch wrote: I see a problem here that I did not see before. The term cracker, which is what hackers are recommending we use when we wish to connote hacker gone to the dark side or some such, has some slight built-in vernacular ambiguities. TLC had a program on hackers, last night. They called them white hats and black hats, or criminals and angels. They had Captain Zap on the show, he loves getting paid to hack, nowadays. I had some tailoring done this week, and it just reminded me of how certain occupations are terribly useful and may well be with us even a million years from now. One thing is it reminded me that even on Star Trek they have Tailors 300 years into the future (though no barbers prominently featured that I saw anyway). You missed Mr. Mott? A blue skinned alien who loves to explain how the Enterprise should be run. Riker says: 'well yeah, he has a lot to say, but he can really cut hair.' Bright Blessings, Kim Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The big picture
I see a problem here that I did not see before. The term cracker, which is what hackers are recommending we use when we wish to connote hacker gone to the dark side or some such, has some slight built-in vernacular ambiguities. Is one talking about a safe cracker? Is one trying to connote drug use? (Crack cocaine). Is there some sort of racist ambiguity? (I'm not sure why but I seem to recall cracker being some sort of racial epithet from one of the races to another). White trash. Maybe there could be a new term for a malicious hacker. Or maybe just get better at using cracker. Yeah, that sounds ok now that I think it through a little. We'll see. Should be, if it gets used enough. The wonderful Jargon Lexicon gets into the background as usual - only back to Shakespeare this time, LOL! Looks like what King John called a cracker one would call an AH these days. Yes, it's LOL, but it would help explain why so many of the supposedly clueless (and many are not) are reluctant to use the word cracker and distinguish between that and hacker. cracker n. One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985 by hackers in defense against journalistic misuse of hacker (q.v., sense 8). An earlier attempt to establish `worm' in this sense around 1981-82 on Usenet was largely a failure. Use of both these neologisms reflects a strong revulsion against the theft and vandalism perpetrated by cracking rings. The neologism cracker in this sense may have been influenced not so much by the term safe-cracker as by the non-jargon term cracker, which in Middle English meant an obnoxious person (e.g., What cracker is this same that deafs our ears / With this abundance of superfluous breath? - Shakespeare's King John, Act II, Scene I) and in modern colloquial American English survives as a barely gentler synonym for white trash. While it is expected that any real hacker will have done some playful cracking and knows many of the basic techniques, anyone past larval stage is expected to have outgrown the desire to do so except for immediate, benign, practical reasons (for example, if it's necessary to get around some security in order to get some work done). It is asking a lot of non-involved folks to make these laborious distinctions if it's even *expected* that a real hacker *will have done some benign cracking*. This is not just a matter of sensationalistic journalists at fault. Hackers are going to have to do better than that, if they wish the entire world to make these laborious distinctions. Thus, there is far less overlap between hackerdom and crackerdom than the mundane reader misled by sensationalistic journalism might expect. Crackers tend to gather in small, tight-knit, very secretive groups that have little overlap with the huge, open poly-culture this lexicon describes; though crackers often like to describe themselves as hackers, most true hackers consider them a separate and lower form of life. Ethical considerations aside, hackers figure that anyone who can't imagine a more interesting way to play with their computers than breaking into someone else's has to be pretty losing. Some other reasons crackers are looked down on are discussed in the entries on cracking and phreaking. See also samurai, dark-side hacker, and hacker ethic. For a portrait of the typical teenage cracker, see warez d00dz That's right, blame it all on the press. :-) I understood pretty much all these distinctions before reading this, and I still have not made up my mind as to which terms I will use going forward. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The big picture
it isn't everyone, not by a very long way, nor ever will be. When you have a closer look, maybe it's not quite like that even with the slaves. Some people talk of sheeple. Fine critters, sheep, and not that dumb either (Judas goats notwithstanding). I always find that rather patronizing and arrogant. (No, I'm not accusing you of that at all.) I find myself asking, What makes you think you're so different? FWIW: I fit not completely distant from Curtis's definition of a slave, financially, (with a couple of twists) and I also view myself as a hacker, by a broad definition insofar as hacking can, in some slang, mean more than hacking via programming or via computer, and it can mean more than trying to mess with some one person or company's private affairs and-or more than doing anything illegal. It's not something I'd expect others to agree with, I just see myself that way sometimes. There you go - a hacker in sheeple's clothing, LOL! You're certainly no slave, MM. I wonder if the real slaves aren't the people at the top of the ladder, the ones who think they're in control - such as Kenneth Lay, hopeless failures at life, what a waste. Hack: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/hack.html Hacker: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/hacker.html And much more. Interesting that it says: hacker: originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe. That's about the same as a bodger, quite a skill, and a very useful forest occupation. Now bodge means to screw it up. Swedes still make furniture with an axe, and there's nothing rough-and-ready about it, it's fine work. Hacking's similar to fettling - all the old factories used to have a fettler, when the machines broke he'd come and do a quick-fix so they'd work and production could continue until the engineers could get around to doing a proper repair job. A good fettler was highly skilled and very ingenious. Fettle: as a verb, means to repair; to smoothe; as an adjective, it means well-knit, all right and tight. It is connected with our word feat, the French faire, the Latin facere. No use I suppose, nobody knows what it means anymore. that the opposite works even better - appealing to the best in people very often brings it out, and you don't go broke doing it either, not necessarily. I do agree with this, it's just tough to get to and find the spot to do it, and to figure out what it is to appeal to and how to do it. Well, how do you deal with your friends? When I first went to Hong Kong the newspapers were obsequeous. Reporters would be summonsed to a press conference where some overblown tycoon would announce his latest depradation. Their places at the tables would be marked with a card with the name of the newspaper and a little red packet containing a $100 bill, which they'd pocket. At the end of the tycoon's speech they'd all stand up and applaud. Their salaries were quite low, because of the little red packets, and because their social status was not very high. I used to train young journalists at newspapers there (and elsewhere), and I'd train them for that purpose basically, of writing for people, since that's what we're supposed to be for. The Fourth Estate and so on, defending the community against injustice and exploitation, especially by the rich and powerful (doesn't help a lot when the rich and powerful just happen to own the newspaper). It was always interesting to see how they handled it when confronted with a breaking story late at night that needed a comment from someone on high, like the Chief Secretary for instance. The Chief Mandarin. Very difficult for Confucians, or not even thinkable. They had to be forced. Why can't you call him? You think he's more important than you are? You represent the public, right? He works for the public, he's a public servant. He's your servant. So call him. They really struggled with it the first time, but not the second time. I once sent two girl reporters to find one of the poor old women who scrape a living out of recycling, often to be found pushing a heavy trolley laden high with folded cartons up a steep hill, in rich Hong Kong where Confucians are supposed to honour the old. They should make friends with her and then push her trolley up the hill for her. Great reluctance. And take a photographer. Furious resistance. But they did it, and wrote a great story about the old woman, recycling, poverty in Hong Kong. Great pics of the two strong young woman sweating at the trolley and the old woman strolling behind looking quite happy with the way her day was turning out. I loved the last line: She's more useful than we are. It had a lot of repercussions, that story, on the two reporters not least of all. I was asked to rescue an ailing newspaper, it didn't matter how I did it (though I doubted that). I started attacking the British colonial government and the establishment, always on issues of social justice, corruption,
Re: [biofuel] The big picture
There you go - a hacker in sheeple's clothing, LOL! You're certainly no slave, MM. I wonder if the real slaves aren't the people at the top of the ladder, the ones who think they're in control - such as Kenneth Lay, hopeless failures at life, what a waste. thx, and an interesting take on Lay. Hack: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/hack.html Hacker: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/hacker.html I see a problem here that I did not see before. The term cracker, which is what hackers are recommending we use when we wish to connote hacker gone to the dark side or some such, has some slight built-in vernacular ambiguities. Is one talking about a safe cracker? Is one trying to connote drug use? (Crack cocaine). Is there some sort of racist ambiguity? (I'm not sure why but I seem to recall cracker being some sort of racial epithet from one of the races to another). Maybe there could be a new term for a malicious hacker. Or maybe just get better at using cracker. Yeah, that sounds ok now that I think it through a little. We'll see. Hacking's similar to fettling - all the old factories used to have a fettler, when the machines broke he'd come and do a quick-fix so they'd work and production could continue until the engineers could get around to doing a proper repair job. A good fettler was highly skilled and very ingenious. I had some tailoring done this week, and it just reminded me of how certain occupations are terribly useful and may well be with us even a million years from now. One thing is it reminded me that even on Star Trek they have Tailors 300 years into the future (though no barbers prominently featured that I saw anyway). When I first went to Hong Kong the newspapers were obsequeous. Reporters would be summonsed to a press conference where some overblown tycoon would announce his latest depradation. I've never verified with you that your background might be British, but it is interesting how a twist toward describing going to Honk Kong results in a sentence with some strikingly British-seeming ways of discussing things (including spelling choices). I once sent two girl reporters to find one of the poor old women who scrape a living out of recycling, often to be found pushing a heavy trolley laden high with folded cartons up a steep hill, in rich Hong Kong where Confucians are supposed to honour the old. I heard an old-time news guy here comment recently, on the topic of what has changed in reporting over the last 50 years or so, that when they started out and were young, their basic attitude had something to do with being angry and taking it for granted that they were sort of there to change things. Now, if I recall, he thinks there's somewhat less willingness to take this unfettered go-get-em go-up-against-the-establishment attitude, particularly as the establishment has more control over paying their salaries. Spin of the day - a must-read: http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/article.asp?id=254 Thx, that was awesome. When he tried to converse with some of the farmers about their pro-GM T-shirts, They smiled shyly; none of them could speak or read English. I love it. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The big picture
it isn't everyone, not by a very long way, nor ever will be. When you have a closer look, maybe it's not quite like that even with the slaves. Some people talk of sheeple. Fine critters, sheep, and not that dumb either (Judas goats notwithstanding). I always find that rather patronizing and arrogant. (No, I'm not accusing you of that at all.) I find myself asking, What makes you think you're so different? FWIW: I fit not completely distant from Curtis's definition of a slave, financially, (with a couple of twists) and I also view myself as a hacker, by a broad definition insofar as hacking can, in some slang, mean more than hacking via programming or via computer, and it can mean more than trying to mess with some one person or company's private affairs and-or more than doing anything illegal. It's not something I'd expect others to agree with, I just see myself that way sometimes. that the opposite works even better - appealing to the best in people very often brings it out, and you don't go broke doing it either, not necessarily. I do agree with this, it's just tough to get to and find the spot to do it, and to figure out what it is to appeal to and how to do it. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] The big picture Was: Hackers - Virus protection
hm I'm getting a bit annoyed about all this talk about hacker. Reason?? Cause I'm a hacker!! well sorta. I'm the original type of hacker. The kind that finds out by accident that the Captain Crunch whistle happens to be the right tones that .And it is very upsetting that this whole society's talk about hackers has like ... really gotten out of hand!! When is everyone gonna realize ... what this stupid game is all about?? The world at large ... is nothing more than a big board game. Run by some big people.. Call them whatever the heck you'd like .. I don't care. Global government-ers NWO'er Corporatizer's . Big Oil-ers ... whatevers. It doesn't matter what ya call them ... what's important is the world they see. Or rather the world they want to see.. For those of you who can't picture this world .. I'll help you. It's the world where EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE ... is a slave. A world where EVERYONE .. globally .. puts out their $55.00/hr labor into society. The Mr. CEO takes his lazy-man's $50.00/hr out of it. The worker is left with his $5.00/hr minimum wage applied to his name. But he can't take his money out yet ... no sir. The Government then takes THEIR share. Rent's, utilities, food expenses and so on take their's. Only THEN is the worker allowed to enjoy his share. A big fat 50 cents worth of paper with a big fat $0.00 written on it. When is everyone gonna realize that everything that goes on in this world gets basically JUDGED . by that above scenario?? If some young kid discovers some invention that furthers this slavery cause GREAT .. he's heralded as the inventor of telephone or the inventor of the transistor ... or whatever. If this same young kid discovers a way to upset this picture such as an interesting experiment which shows how we can go around forcing people to getting the least possible food for the maximum input of labor oh ... ahh. ohh suddenly he's DEMONIZED. As malicious ... dangerous a whacko. When in reality, me ... and most other so-called hacker ... we're just kids. Who have no evil intent in mind. Just fascinated by how things works. Why?? Cause ahem it's cool.. how it works!! So please keep your focus away from us hackers. Refocus yourselves on the big boys. Figure out their motives. Why the Positive or negative news attention. I think you'll find it all comes down to how much money they stand to gain (or lose) or what percentage of the global population they stand to gain (or lose) as potential slaves. Otherwise, if you don't you'll (to use Keith's words ... I hope I use it in the right context) ..you'll swallow the party lines, hook line and sinker Sorry, just couldn't sit in the sidelines while all this was flying around,. Curtis Grew up as (original meaning) hacker Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's a sub-culture, and it goes back at least 30 years. So do I! LOL! At least! If none of this had happened you wouldn't have a PC. Even worse, I wouldn't have a Mac. What does Captain Crunch mean to you? Breakfast cereal. Long long ago it came with a little plastic whistle in the box. Some phreaks discovered that if you blew the whistle into a phone it had the exact tone required to hack your way into Ma Bell's innards - free. So the man named by Newsweek as one of the Top Twenty hackers of all time became known as Captain Crunch. - Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The big picture Was: Hackers - Virus protection
Hey Curtis :-) I was hoping to prise you out of the woodwork, I just didn't realize it'd be you. I'm not too surprised. You're a fone phreak? Anyway, cheer up. A bit better than slaves, a bit worse too - but by any definition there are probably only a few hundred million of them, it isn't everyone, not by a very long way, nor ever will be. When you have a closer look, maybe it's not quite like that even with the slaves. Some people talk of sheeple. Fine critters, sheep, and not that dumb either (Judas goats notwithstanding). I always find that rather patronizing and arrogant. (No, I'm not accusing you of that at all.) I find myself asking, What makes you think you're so different? In a previous era they were called the salt of the earth, perhaps just as patronizingly but with a lot more truth. Ad agencies and so on do their profilings and become convinced by them, especially as they work; the media often appeal to the lowest common denominator, and that works too. But it's quite easy to show that the opposite works even better - appealing to the best in people very often brings it out, and you don't go broke doing it either, not necessarily. (I've done that a few times with newspapers, and it really worked - up went the circulation, and the advertising with it. And no, they didn't like it. The readers did though.) People live their lives as best they can and do what they have to do, but there's nearly always more to them than you might think, they're not just numbers. There's hope. The powers-that-be aren't nearly as all-powerful as they try to tell us. Plenty of spreading cracks in their concrete. Anyway, long live Captain Crunch, and plastic whistles and viruses are good for you. Happy hacking! Regards Keith hm I'm getting a bit annoyed about all this talk about hacker. Reason?? Cause I'm a hacker!! well sorta. I'm the original type of hacker. The kind that finds out by accident that the Captain Crunch whistle happens to be the right tones that .And it is very upsetting that this whole society's talk about hackers has like ... really gotten out of hand!! When is everyone gonna realize ... what this stupid game is all about?? The world at large ... is nothing more than a big board game. Run by some big people.. Call them whatever the heck you'd like .. I don't care. Global government-ers NWO'er Corporatizer's . Big Oil-ers ... whatevers. It doesn't matter what ya call them ... what's important is the world they see. Or rather the world they want to see.. For those of you who can't picture this world .. I'll help you. It's the world where EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE ... is a slave. A world where EVERYONE .. globally .. puts out their $55.00/hr labor into society. The Mr. CEO takes his lazy-man's $50.00/hr out of it. The worker is left with his $5.00/hr minimum wage applied to his name. But he can't take his money out yet ... no sir. The Government then takes THEIR share. Rent's, utilities, food expenses and so on take their's. Only THEN is the worker allowed to enjoy his share. A big fat 50 cents worth of paper with a big fat $0.00 written on it. When is everyone gonna realize that everything that goes on in this world gets basically JUDGED . by that above scenario?? If some young kid discovers some invention that furthers this slavery cause GREAT .. he's heralded as the inventor of telephone or the inventor of the transistor ... or whatever. If this same young kid discovers a way to upset this picture such as an interesting experiment which shows how we can go around forcing people to getting the least possible food for the maximum input of labor oh ... ahh. ohh suddenly he's DEMONIZED. As malicious ... dangerous a whacko. When in reality, me ... and most other so-called hacker ... we're just kids. Who have no evil intent in mind. Just fascinated by how things works. Why?? Cause ahem it's cool.. how it works!! So please keep your focus away from us hackers. Refocus yourselves on the big boys. Figure out their motives. Why the Positive or negative news attention. I think you'll find it all comes down to how much money they stand to gain (or lose) or what percentage of the global population they stand to gain (or lose) as potential slaves. Otherwise, if you don't you'll (to use Keith's words ... I hope I use it in the right context) ..you'll swallow the party lines, hook line and sinker Sorry, just couldn't sit in the sidelines while all this was flying around,. Curtis Grew up as (original meaning) hacker Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's a sub-culture, and it goes back at least 30 years. So do I! LOL! At least! If none of this had happened you wouldn't
Re: [biofuel] The big picture
On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 11:41 AM, Keith Addison wrote: The powers-that-be aren't nearly as all-powerful as they try to tell us. Plenty of spreading cracks in their concrete. Their single greatest weakness is extreme short-sightedness. It's bad for everyone else too, of course, but it's always ultimately fatal to the current oligarchy. They never see their demise coming, even though everyone else did. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The big picture
On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 11:41 AM, Keith Addison wrote: The powers-that-be aren't nearly as all-powerful as they try to tell us. Plenty of spreading cracks in their concrete. Their single greatest weakness is extreme short-sightedness. It's bad for everyone else too, of course, but it's always ultimately fatal to the current oligarchy. They never see their demise coming, even though everyone else did. -K Yes. Part of the short-sightedness is a lack of connection. They're blinkered by their pollings and profilings and averagings, and prejudices, and haven't a clue what people are about or what they're really up to. I think we recently saw a lesser example of that here in Big Biodiesel's hopelessly flawed view of homebrewers. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
