Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
Walt Patrick wrote: I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? It's not my election. I'm not a citizen. For someone who claims to not be a citizen you sure do know a lot about US Civil War history. Oh, that's right, you're an expat. But, keep in mind, most expats retain the citizenship to wherever they originate from. So I guess that'd make you a former American. Keep in mind also that as far as the US Department Of State is concerned you're an American for life unless you publicly and in writing renounce your US citizenship, and send the appropriate paperwork to the appropriate places. You seem to be one of those expats who is both proud to be and American and at the same time anti-american with the zeal of a convert. You also seem to have a lot of deeply held anger. Good luck dealing with it. Have a nice life. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
At 08:07 AM 3/2/04 -0500, Alan wrote: Walt Patrick wrote: I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? It's not my election. I'm not a citizen. For someone who claims to not be a citizen you sure do know a lot about US Civil War history. There are many people of a historical bent who see that conflict as one of the great changing points in history. I find it especially fascinating since having a Southern father and an Northern mother, I have a reasonable chance of understanding the weltgeist of the key actors. One of the working definitions of the concept of home is that place where you understand the SOBs and why they are the way they are. Oh, that's right, you're an expat. But, keep in mind, most expats retain the citizenship to wherever they originate from. So I guess that'd make you a former American. Keep in mind also that as far as the US Department Of State is concerned you're an American for life unless you publicly and in writing renounce your US citizenship, and send the appropriate paperwork to the appropriate places. I'm quite aware of the proprietary dimension that comes with a US birth certificate. Many have noted that the Civil War didn't end slavery, it just leveled the playing field. Indeed, there are many of us who see the upcoming election as little more than a chance for the field hands to elect the next overseer. One holds the whip in his right hand, the other in his left, but it's hard to see that as a material difference. You seem to be one of those expats who is both proud to be and American and at the same time anti-american with the zeal of a convert. I'm not proud to be an American. I had no say and take no credit for where my mother chose to give birth. I do respect and feel a sense of indebtedness for the opportunities which came with that accident of birth. I believe that there's nothing more radical than a working model of a better way; what I am proud of is the work I've done to help create working models of viable solutions. I'm also not anti-American. This country has done many good things, as well as many things that weren't. There was a party during The War when a woman asked Lincoln if he didn't agree that God was on their side. Lincoln reported replied something along the lines of, Madam, the question is more one of whether in this conflict, are we on God's side? One of the ironies of life is that something good things get done for bad reasons, just as bad things can come with the best of intentions. At this point in time, America has a profound impact on the present, a weight that will shift as China and India come into the modern age. It's a constantly shifting pattern in which the only thing certain is that change will come. You also seem to have a lot of deeply held anger. Good luck dealing with it. I do my best, but it's not a matter of anger but rather one of fear since when patterns repeat themselves, it's a warning. For example, the dismissive treatment and personal attacks we're currently seeing directed at Bush are very similar to the way that the Democrats dismissed Lincoln as a rube and mocked him as the great ape. It was a grievous error then; I fear that it is a grievous error now. Have a nice life. Thanks. I am. Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
Walt, being a Northerner I take exception to your comment about the millitaty industrial complex.Anyone knows they only work for those who hold the purse strings.And they still reside in Euroupe Paul Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 12:53 PM 2/23/04 +, someone lacking the stones to even sign his post wrote: I can see poker playin' Walt turning over command to his co-pilot, puttin' on his Stetson, stridin' past the bombadier to the hatch area, climbin' aboard the nuke and gettin' ready for judgement day. You're closer to the mark than you know. When my number came up in the draft, the government decided that because of my background in chemistry and physics, I should become one of the officers who activate tactical nukes in the field. As a result, I know first hand the soul searching that goes with that job. It's not something to make light of. Personally, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust the government to the degree necessary in order to be able to carry out an order to launch a nuke. In time, I was able to get a discharge, and left the country in order to help build a new one in the Caribbean. As an expatriot, I don't care who wins; I just think it's a shame they can't both lose. But what scares me more than the venality of the politicians on both sides of the isle is the inability of most people to look at the contest with any more insight than that exhibited by the World Wide Wrestling Federation's loyal viewers who have to paint everything in black and white, and how just can't seem to grasp the subtle concept of someone being an equal opportunity disbeliever. About 140 years ago, a group of federalists took over the government and waged a war of conquest which destroyed more than a million lives thereby establishing the principal of rule by conquest as the foundation for the federal government. If they could kill hundreds of thousands of Southrons, and they did, then it's not much of a stretch for them to continue on that path killing anyone else who gets in their way. I'm always bemused by Northerners who think that their side won that war; the winners were the military-industrial complex, which hasn't looked back since. I don't have a problem with folks who either support or oppose the current expedition on pragmatic grounds, since this is the sort of business which has been the focus of the federal government for more than a century. What does scare me is the folks who think it's morally okay for their side's President to blow people to pieces but somehow not okay for the other side's President to do the same. Those who were not publicly outraged over Clinton's pattern of bombing civilian targets should recognize that their silence opened this door, and to at least have the decency to not whine about Bush using the same justifications for following in Clinton's footsteps. These matters are way too serious for such partisan nonsense. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
hi sad but all true.as an american I've seen this change coming for a long time.it was very subtle at first but as there became less and less resistance to the bullying,it became more open.it seems that people in this country have lost the stomach to fight for whats right.they say as long as I've got mine who cares about what happens to you.they don't realize that some day it will be them thats without,and there'll be no one to stand up for them. the corporations do because they can.they can because we let them. Paul doug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like the Biofuels list BECAUSE it has comments from all sides of the political spectrum. I am an Australian, and consider that of late, the Americans have become bullies: if you do not do as we say, we have the power to force you. Often this power is not the Armament might, but the voices from the American controlled Multi-national companies. Many of these companies have enough access to money, to be more powerful than many smaller countries. This power is used in insidious ways in weaker countries, to enable these companies to make more money at the plight of the poor. Unfortunately, America is not the only country that does this, as European nations, even some Asian nations also exploit. America, however, seems to be the flagship, being vocal aggressive, so America seems to be the country that repressed peoples rally against most. The US stance in the middle east, where the US ignores the fact that Israel has atomic WMD, but attacks others that it accuses of having WMD, but do not! If America was fair Just, it would help the Jews Arabs sort their differences, come to an equitable solution, disarm Israel before the Middle East blows up into another World War. All I want is a fair equitable system in the world where every person can live in peace harmony, no matter what religion. (Step off soapbox) Doug PS: I do not consider this email as being anti-US, as I am not. However I think that the US as a Christian Nation, should be more Christian in nature! (I am pointing at the system, not the individuals.) On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:24 am, Walt Patrick wrote: At 04:50 AM 2/25/04 +0900, Keith wrote: Politicians, right and left, lie. That's hardly news, and hardly likely to change unless conditions render them irrelevant. That's why I'm here on this list, to glean information which might help further that goal. It's becoming quite evident that other would rather pursue their paritsan agenda regardless of how many people it drives off-list. I'd like you to amplify that please. Please be specific, you've intimated something like this previously - who and what exactly are you talking about? And why do you think people are been driven off-list? Which people? Are you sure I'm the one you're thinking of? I believe that this is the first time I've raised the issue, but others have heretofore protested the abuse of the list and been essentially told point blank to shut up or leave. I can assure you that I've thought about unsubscribing more than once in the last few weeks due to the level of partisan hatred that's dominated the list of late. I come here to learn about biofuel, not to hear rants from folks who hate Bush but somehow fail to remember the thirty to forty thousand men, women and children who were infected with HIV and Hep-C by tainted blood drawn from Arkansas prisons and illegally sold in Canada in order to fund Clinton's run for the White House. I can't conceive how anyone could not be totally outraged over that. I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? It's not my election. I'm not a citizen. The actions of your current administration See above comment. have been the cause of the biggest protests worldwide and the most vocal and united opposition the world has ever seen, by a very long way, quite unprecedented. Not according to my reading of history, but even if it were true, I'm not particularly impressed by volume and quantity. You think it has nothing to do with biofuels and localising power sources? If so you're not thinking very clearly. Please don't mistake my focused interest in biofuel for a lack of interest in other matters, but meaning no offense, there are other lists which cover those topics with less vitriol and more insight than I've seen displayed here. Now please tell us just who and what you're pointing the finger at. Since you asked . You're the list owner, so I guess that would be
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
x-charset ISO-8859-1 THE FIX IS IN, At this point the winner is Scull and Bones (see the movie, available at rental stores) All the american electorate has left is a protest vote. maybe. I agree, the US Feds are very busy building a welfare/police state; what goes around comes around. Maybe all the other countries that the US owes money to should foreclose! Lillie p.s. not quite keeping up with all the reading plus list traffic but I'm trying! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
AMEN !!! THE FIX IS IN, At this point the winner is Scull and Bones (see the movie, available at rental stores) All the american electorate has left is a protest vote. maybe. Best Regards Fred Anderson On Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004, at 13:13 US/Eastern, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/24/2004 4:00:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . At this point any of the alternative party candidates are merely spoilers, and votes for any of them are effectively votes for Bush. If your only goal it to defeat Mr. Bush, you vote for the lesser of two evils, but you still get evil. Especially in the congressional races, your vote won't count for much, but your protest vote, for another party, will send a powerfull message, especially if the scum can't get a real majority. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links When the people fear the government, you have tyranny. When the government fears the people, you have freedom. Thomas Paine, ... he should know having been a revolutionary during a few revolutions in government, including ours, (the U.S.A.), by far the most relevant and meaningful in human history. No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government Thomas Jefferson, June 1776 ... If ya don't know who he is then perhaps it is because of some tyranny where you live finds advantage in hiding his existence from you. (Oh perish the revolutionary thought of the ability to protect freedom from tyranny !!!) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
Doug, I am an American and I agree with you. We have the power and resources to bring peace and harmony to the world but the people in power use it to gain more power. I have made mission trips to Haiti and it sickens me that the world stands by and watches as this poor country struggles for survival at the cost of the Innocent. I believe if they had oil there would be no question about intervening to stop the killing. This is probably true about many third world countries. Ted doug [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like the Biofuels list BECAUSE it has comments from all sides of the political spectrum. I am an Australian, and consider that of late, the Americans have become bullies: if you do not do as we say, we have the power to force you. Often this power is not the Armament might, but the voices from the American controlled Multi-national companies. Many of these companies have enough access to money, to be more powerful than many smaller countries. This power is used in insidious ways in weaker countries, to enable these companies to make more money at the plight of the poor. Unfortunately, America is not the only country that does this, as European nations, even some Asian nations also exploit. America, however, seems to be the flagship, being vocal aggressive, so America seems to be the country that repressed peoples rally against most. The US stance in the middle east, where the US ignores the fact that Israel has atomic WMD, but attacks others that it accuses of having WMD, but do not! If America was fair Just, it would help the Jews Arabs sort their differences, come to an equitable solution, disarm Israel before the Middle East blows up into another World War. All I want is a fair equitable system in the world where every person can live in peace harmony, no matter what religion. (Step off soapbox) Doug PS: I do not consider this email as being anti-US, as I am not. However I think that the US as a Christian Nation, should be more Christian in nature! (I am pointing at the system, not the individuals.) On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:24 am, Walt Patrick wrote: At 04:50 AM 2/25/04 +0900, Keith wrote: Politicians, right and left, lie. That's hardly news, and hardly likely to change unless conditions render them irrelevant. That's why I'm here on this list, to glean information which might help further that goal. It's becoming quite evident that other would rather pursue their paritsan agenda regardless of how many people it drives off-list. I'd like you to amplify that please. Please be specific, you've intimated something like this previously - who and what exactly are you talking about? And why do you think people are been driven off-list? Which people? Are you sure I'm the one you're thinking of? I believe that this is the first time I've raised the issue, but others have heretofore protested the abuse of the list and been essentially told point blank to shut up or leave. I can assure you that I've thought about unsubscribing more than once in the last few weeks due to the level of partisan hatred that's dominated the list of late. I come here to learn about biofuel, not to hear rants from folks who hate Bush but somehow fail to remember the thirty to forty thousand men, women and children who were infected with HIV and Hep-C by tainted blood drawn from Arkansas prisons and illegally sold in Canada in order to fund Clinton's run for the White House. I can't conceive how anyone could not be totally outraged over that. I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? It's not my election. I'm not a citizen. The actions of your current administration See above comment. have been the cause of the biggest protests worldwide and the most vocal and united opposition the world has ever seen, by a very long way, quite unprecedented. Not according to my reading of history, but even if it were true, I'm not particularly impressed by volume and quantity. You think it has nothing to do with biofuels and localising power sources? If so you're not thinking very clearly. Please don't mistake my focused interest in biofuel for a lack of interest in other matters, but meaning no offense, there are other lists which cover those topics with less vitriol and more insight than I've seen displayed here. Now please tell us just who and what you're pointing the finger at. Since you asked . You're the list owner, so I guess that would be you. I would invite you to
Re[2]: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hallo Ted, Wednesday, 25 February, 2004, 09:31:54, you wrote: TD Doug, TD I am an American and I agree with you. We have the power and TD resources to bring peace and harmony to the world but the people TD in power use it to gain more power. I have made mission trips to TD Haiti and it sickens me that the world stands by and watches as TD this poor country struggles for survival at the cost of the TD Innocent. I believe if they had oil there would be no question TD about intervening to stop the killing. This is probably true about TD many third world countries. TD Ted (Although this is addressed to you please take it as general in nature.) I understand what you are trying to say but you have it a bit mixed up brother. Power and resources do not bring peace and harmony. Peace and harmony are the results of a changing of the heart and of each one of us exercising self-discipline, self-restraint and becoming responsible human beings and this happens one person at a time until that time when the lions share of the people in any given society decide to own these things and affect a change in their belief system. This may be a system of religious belief but it is generally a change in their secular belief. Some of the most egregious offenses have been perpetrated by the organized church (and just for your information I have been a recorded minister for the last 35 years and although I have no bone to pick with an individual and their personal religious beliefs I am offended by the manipulation of religionists by the various heirarchies of the (any) organized church or religion). Until we put self interest and parochial concerns behind us and concentrate on this planet and everything in, on and around it (including we humans) as a whole we are never going to do more than put a bandage on the wound and many, many times it will just be a dirty bandage at that. We need to put our moral values where our mouths are and our moral values need to be of the highest. If everything we did as individuals, societies, nations was done out of love of our fellows (again remembering that we are all brothers and sisters or cousins at the least) all would be well, but as soon as self interest and aggrandrizement, greed and money enter the picture we are dead on that gradual, gentle slope downward which ends up in no good place for anyone. Power and resources are nice for the few but humility, empathy and loving service to our fellows is superior. Politics and economics have neither moral sense nor consciences. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straà liegen, daà?sie gerade deshalb von der gewëænlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
Walt Patrick wrote: About 140 years ago, a group of federalists took over the government and waged a war of conquest which destroyed more than a million lives thereby establishing the principal of rule by conquest as the foundation for the federal government. If they could kill hundreds of thousands of Southrons, and they did, then it's not much of a stretch for them to continue on that path killing anyone else who gets in their way. I believe you mis-spelled Southerners. Or perhaps Confederates. And don't forget that the South fired the first shot. Some Southerners had been preaching war for years, and very many were happy when it came. But you've reduced The Civil War (The War Between The States) to blue and grey, and it wasn't that simple then either. There were Union militias formed in the deep south, and union sympathizers into the deepest of the deep south. Likewise there were Confederate militias formed north of the Mason-Dixon line that made life interesting in the North. And there were also Confederate sympathizers all over the north. The Confederate states themselves were a fractious lot that had more differences than commonalities. Particularly in the last year of the war, their leaders spent nearly as much time fighting among themselves as they did fighting the Union. Your comment about the military-industrial complex rings hollow, because after 1865 the military-industrial complex practically ceased to exist. The United States didn't keep a large standing army, so it didn't need a large industry to supply a large standing army. And yet, to this day, The Civil War was our most damaging war to date. Largely because of the use of Napoleanic tactics in early industrial warfare there were huge numbers of casualties. Because of this The Civil War produced more American deaths than all of our other wars combined. For all of those who are making comments like Demicans and Republicrats the only thing I have to say is that getting The Shrub out of the White House is the first step. The thought of that hyper-religious madman getting re-elected scares me. I don't like being scared of my politicians. You've obviously been staying away from the polls in droves, because the only candidate that showed a glimmer of being something different, Howard Dean, just quit because he couldn't get enough support. That leaves us with John Kerry, the Republican part of the Democratic party, and John Edwards, who isn't any better. At this point any of the alternative party candidates are merely spoilers, and votes for any of them are effectively votes for Bush. I say again, get Bush out of the White House first. Worry about making major changes to the federal government later. And while you're at it, don't forget all of the congressional elections, state and local elections, and other issues that will be on your ballots this year. AP Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
x-charset ISO-8859-1I like the Biofuels list BECAUSE it has comments from all sides of the political spectrum. I am an Australian, and consider that of late, the Americans have become bullies: if you do not do as we say, we have the power to force you. Often this power is not the Armament might, but the voices from the American controlled Multi-national companies. Many of these companies have enough access to money, to be more powerful than many smaller countries. This power is used in insidious ways in weaker countries, to enable these companies to make more money at the plight of the poor. Unfortunately, America is not the only country that does this, as European nations, even some Asian nations also exploit. America, however, seems to be the flagship, being vocal aggressive, so America seems to be the country that repressed peoples rally against most. The US stance in the middle east, where the US ignores the fact that Israel has atomic WMD, but attacks others that it accuses of having WMD, but do not! If America was fair Just, it would help the Jews Arabs sort their differences, come to an equitable solution, disarm Israel before the Middle East blows up into another World War. All I want is a fair equitable system in the world where every person can live in peace harmony, no matter what religion. (Step off soapbox) Doug PS: I do not consider this email as being anti-US, as I am not. However I think that the US as a Christian Nation, should be more Christian in nature! (I am pointing at the system, not the individuals.) On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:24 am, Walt Patrick wrote: At 04:50 AM 2/25/04 +0900, Keith wrote: Politicians, right and left, lie. That's hardly news, and hardly likely to change unless conditions render them irrelevant. That's why I'm here on this list, to glean information which might help further that goal. It's becoming quite evident that other would rather pursue their paritsan agenda regardless of how many people it drives off-list. I'd like you to amplify that please. Please be specific, you've intimated something like this previously - who and what exactly are you talking about? And why do you think people are been driven off-list? Which people? Are you sure I'm the one you're thinking of? I believe that this is the first time I've raised the issue, but others have heretofore protested the abuse of the list and been essentially told point blank to shut up or leave. I can assure you that I've thought about unsubscribing more than once in the last few weeks due to the level of partisan hatred that's dominated the list of late. I come here to learn about biofuel, not to hear rants from folks who hate Bush but somehow fail to remember the thirty to forty thousand men, women and children who were infected with HIV and Hep-C by tainted blood drawn from Arkansas prisons and illegally sold in Canada in order to fund Clinton's run for the White House. I can't conceive how anyone could not be totally outraged over that. I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? It's not my election. I'm not a citizen. The actions of your current administration See above comment. have been the cause of the biggest protests worldwide and the most vocal and united opposition the world has ever seen, by a very long way, quite unprecedented. Not according to my reading of history, but even if it were true, I'm not particularly impressed by volume and quantity. You think it has nothing to do with biofuels and localising power sources? If so you're not thinking very clearly. Please don't mistake my focused interest in biofuel for a lack of interest in other matters, but meaning no offense, there are other lists which cover those topics with less vitriol and more insight than I've seen displayed here. Now please tell us just who and what you're pointing the finger at. Since you asked . You're the list owner, so I guess that would be you. I would invite you to give some thought to just what mission you want this list to serve, and whether you want to impose a requirement that in order to participate folk most be (1) interested in the development of biofuels and (2) hate Bush's guts. I believe that there are lots of people who can advance the first criteria without having to pass the litmus test of the second. As list owner, you can do what you want, but it's important to ask yourself whether you bear something of a host's obligation to
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
In a message dated 2/24/2004 4:00:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . At this point any of the alternative party candidates are merely spoilers, and votes for any of them are effectively votes for Bush. If your only goal it to defeat Mr. Bush, you vote for the lesser of two evils, but you still get evil. Especially in the congressional races, your vote won't count for much, but your protest vote, for another party, will send a powerfull message, especially if the scum can't get a real majority. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
At 02:33 AM 2/24/04 -0500, Allan wrote: I believe you mis-spelled Southerners. Or perhaps Confederates. Nope. Southron was and remains the term for a person who supported the Confederate States of America, as opposed to someone who just happened to live in the southeast. And don't forget that the South fired the first shot. When Federal troops moved in under cover of darkness and occupied Fort Sumner, right smack in the middle of the CSA's largest harbor, something had to give. The agreement worked out was that Anderson and his troops would remain in place until their food ran out, at which point they could surrender without loss of face. When Lincoln ordered ships to make the run into the harbor to reprovision the fort, he didn't leave the Confederate government with much choice. It's perhaps useful to remember that the Northern states had just passed a law that raised import duties, the sales tax of that era and the Federal government's primary funding source, from around 15% to around 35%. Even without the increase, the Federal government was taking about a hundred million a year out of the South in fees widely deemed to be governmental protection fees supporting Northern industry. Import duties were collected at customs houses, which is what Ft. Sumner was. That's why so many interpreted the occupation of the fort as a statement that the federal government intended to collect the additional tax come what may. There was a lot of behind the scenes negotiating going on as the Lincoln government attempted to get the Southern states to agree to return to the Union. Lincoln offered to roll back the tax increase to something around 20%, with the added inducement of a constitutional amendment guaranteeing that the Federal government would not interfere with the institution of slavery, but by that time, the secession fever was so strong that the offer to roll back the tax increase fell on deaf ears. Some Southerners had been preaching war for years, and very many were happy when it came. No doubt. But you've reduced The Civil War (The War Between The States) to blue and grey, and it wasn't that simple then either. Such things never are. There were Union militias formed in the deep south, and union sympathizers into the deepest of the deep south. Likewise there were Confederate militias formed north of the Mason-Dixon line that made life interesting in the North. And there were also Confederate sympathizers all over the north. Indeed. The slaveholding states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Missouri fought on the Northern side. The Confederate states themselves were a fractious lot that had more differences than commonalities. Particularly in the last year of the war, their leaders spent nearly as much time fighting among themselves as they did fighting the Union. Too true. Your comment about the military-industrial complex rings hollow, because after 1865 the military-industrial complex practically ceased to exist. You might find it interesting to study the relationship between Lamar Dupont and the Lincoln administration. The United States didn't keep a large standing army, so it didn't need a large industry to supply a large standing army. There are those who would suggest that given the corporate forces unleased by the war, most of the troops weren't in uniform, that it was only when the troops were needed to show the flag, as in the secession of Panama from Columbia, that the connection between corporate America and the troops became explicit. And yet, to this day, The Civil War was our most damaging war to date. Largely because of the use of Napoleanic tactics in early industrial warfare there were huge numbers of casualties. Because of this The Civil War produced more American deaths than all of our other wars combined. Cold Harbor is a good example of the scale of the tragedy. I say again, get Bush out of the White House first. Worry about making major changes to the federal government later. Your call. My perspective is that we all lost the war, and that the governmental protestations of democratic action have been a sham ever since. As the boss of Tammany Hall said so well, I don't care who you let vote so long as I get to decide who runs. Given the rampant emotionalism evident on both sides, it's likely that the game will continue in stalemate for some time to come. To quote Mayor Daley, Today, the real problem is the future. It's my hope that opening up new energy sources at the grass roots level (which I thought was the point behind this list) will open up new options for change. That's why we're working on building a micro reactor for converting carbon-based waste into methanol. It used to be that newspapers had a stranglehold on information, but the internet
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
Walt Patrick wrote: snip It's my hope that opening up new energy sources at the grass roots level (which I thought was the point behind this list) One of them, and it's been and continues to be most successful. will open up new options for change. That's why we're working on building a micro reactor for converting carbon-based waste into methanol. It used to be that newspapers had a stranglehold on information, but the internet has completely undercut their ability to control public perception. I believe that the development of _in situ_ power sources has the potential to similarly dethrone the oil companies and make their stranglehold on society into a historical footnote. Yes, that's always the theme here, we're always saying so, the archives is full of it - it's absolutely essential, if there's to be any history. Though there'll always be a role for centralised production, but not on any throne. Politicians, right and left, lie. That's hardly news, and hardly likely to change unless conditions render them irrelevant. That's why I'm here on this list, to glean information which might help further that goal. It's becoming quite evident that other would rather pursue their paritsan agenda regardless of how many people it drives off-list. I'd like you to amplify that please. Please be specific, you've intimated something like this previously - who and what exactly are you talking about? And why do you think people are been driven off-list? Which people? I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? The actions of your current administration have been the cause of the biggest protests worldwide and the most vocal and united opposition the world has ever seen, by a very long way, quite unprecedented. You think it has nothing to do with biofuels and localising power sources? If so you're not thinking very clearly. Now please tell us just who and what you're pointing the finger at. Best Keith Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
At 04:50 AM 2/25/04 +0900, Keith wrote: Politicians, right and left, lie. That's hardly news, and hardly likely to change unless conditions render them irrelevant. That's why I'm here on this list, to glean information which might help further that goal. It's becoming quite evident that other would rather pursue their paritsan agenda regardless of how many people it drives off-list. I'd like you to amplify that please. Please be specific, you've intimated something like this previously - who and what exactly are you talking about? And why do you think people are been driven off-list? Which people? Are you sure I'm the one you're thinking of? I believe that this is the first time I've raised the issue, but others have heretofore protested the abuse of the list and been essentially told point blank to shut up or leave. I can assure you that I've thought about unsubscribing more than once in the last few weeks due to the level of partisan hatred that's dominated the list of late. I come here to learn about biofuel, not to hear rants from folks who hate Bush but somehow fail to remember the thirty to forty thousand men, women and children who were infected with HIV and Hep-C by tainted blood drawn from Arkansas prisons and illegally sold in Canada in order to fund Clinton's run for the White House. I can't conceive how anyone could not be totally outraged over that. I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? It's not my election. I'm not a citizen. The actions of your current administration See above comment. have been the cause of the biggest protests worldwide and the most vocal and united opposition the world has ever seen, by a very long way, quite unprecedented. Not according to my reading of history, but even if it were true, I'm not particularly impressed by volume and quantity. You think it has nothing to do with biofuels and localising power sources? If so you're not thinking very clearly. Please don't mistake my focused interest in biofuel for a lack of interest in other matters, but meaning no offense, there are other lists which cover those topics with less vitriol and more insight than I've seen displayed here. Now please tell us just who and what you're pointing the finger at. Since you asked . You're the list owner, so I guess that would be you. I would invite you to give some thought to just what mission you want this list to serve, and whether you want to impose a requirement that in order to participate folk most be (1) interested in the development of biofuels and (2) hate Bush's guts. I believe that there are lots of people who can advance the first criteria without having to pass the litmus test of the second. As list owner, you can do what you want, but it's important to ask yourself whether you bear something of a host's obligation to insure that any guest who comes to your list and posts in good faith is treated with civility. I'm not a troll. I've posted numerous times about issues having to do with the synthesis of methanol, a process which we're steadily working towards bringing on line here. I'm also not partisan; I don't care who wins and my personal feeling is that it's a damn shame they can't both lose. Talk which focuses on how the current administration is affecting biofuel issues is certainly a good topic of discussion for this list, but the list has of late gone way beyond that. When the ugliness gets so deep in here that even neutral fellow travelers are being attacked as enemies, it's time to do some soul searching. Perhaps you feel that this Bush-bashing truly does advance the cause of biofuels. I don't, and would really like to see the bandwidth focused more on biofuels. Ultimately, it's your list, and it's your call. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
x-charset ISO-8859-1Thanks to Keith Addison for posting a number of examples of pre-war crapaganda, and the debunking thereof. I can see poker playin' Walt turning over command to his co-pilot, puttin' on his Stetson, stridin' past the bombadier to the hatch area, climbin' aboard the nuke and gettin' ready for judgement day. Don't matter who we're bombin', they no doubt deserve it 'cause the President he says so.don't matter how many civilians die 'cause this here thing is bigger 'n' all of us, and we got to save the world from bad guys. So with apologies to Stanley Kubrick, Peter Sellers et al, Slim Pickens poker playin' Walt.hold on tight and start whoopin' and hollerin' 'cause it's bombs away! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
mcgeough65 wrote: Thanks to Keith Addison for posting a number of examples of pre-war crapaganda, and the debunking thereof. I can see poker playin' Walt turning over command to his co-pilot, puttin' on his Stetson, stridin' past the bombadier to the hatch area, climbin' aboard the nuke and gettin' ready for judgement day. Don't matter who we're bombin', they no doubt deserve it 'cause the President he says so.don't matter how many civilians die 'cause this here thing is bigger 'n' all of us, and we got to save the world from bad guys. So with apologies to Stanley Kubrick, Peter Sellers et al, Slim Pickens poker playin' Walt.hold on tight and start whoopin' and hollerin' 'cause it's bombs away! It wasn't aimed at Walt. And it wasn't just pre-war. And we'll meet again some sunny day. (You forgot Vera Lynn.) Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
At 12:53 PM 2/23/04 +, someone lacking the stones to even sign his post wrote: I can see poker playin' Walt turning over command to his co-pilot, puttin' on his Stetson, stridin' past the bombadier to the hatch area, climbin' aboard the nuke and gettin' ready for judgement day. You're closer to the mark than you know. When my number came up in the draft, the government decided that because of my background in chemistry and physics, I should become one of the officers who activate tactical nukes in the field. As a result, I know first hand the soul searching that goes with that job. It's not something to make light of. Personally, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust the government to the degree necessary in order to be able to carry out an order to launch a nuke. In time, I was able to get a discharge, and left the country in order to help build a new one in the Caribbean. As an expatriot, I don't care who wins; I just think it's a shame they can't both lose. But what scares me more than the venality of the politicians on both sides of the isle is the inability of most people to look at the contest with any more insight than that exhibited by the World Wide Wrestling Federation's loyal viewers who have to paint everything in black and white, and how just can't seem to grasp the subtle concept of someone being an equal opportunity disbeliever. About 140 years ago, a group of federalists took over the government and waged a war of conquest which destroyed more than a million lives thereby establishing the principal of rule by conquest as the foundation for the federal government. If they could kill hundreds of thousands of Southrons, and they did, then it's not much of a stretch for them to continue on that path killing anyone else who gets in their way. I'm always bemused by Northerners who think that their side won that war; the winners were the military-industrial complex, which hasn't looked back since. I don't have a problem with folks who either support or oppose the current expedition on pragmatic grounds, since this is the sort of business which has been the focus of the federal government for more than a century. What does scare me is the folks who think it's morally okay for their side's President to blow people to pieces but somehow not okay for the other side's President to do the same. Those who were not publicly outraged over Clinton's pattern of bombing civilian targets should recognize that their silence opened this door, and to at least have the decency to not whine about Bush using the same justifications for following in Clinton's footsteps. These matters are way too serious for such partisan nonsense. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception - was Fwd: ~TerraSoLuna~ [Fwd: CNVN: Memorize and pass it on]
Thanks Kris, very good! Stauber and Rampton are pretty near my top of the pops. More below on their Weapons of Mass Deception: The Uses of Propaganda in Bush's War on Iraq. Best Keith http://www.prwatch.org/books/wmd.html Weapons of Mass Deception: The Uses of Propaganda in Bush's War on Iraq by Sheldon Rampton and John Stauber [publishing and sales details] No more bed-time stories ... these guys are here to wake you up. --Greg Palast A major contribution for those who want to take control of their own future, not be passive subjects of manipulation and control. --Noam Chomsky It was a day for the history books. On April 9th, 2003, millions of Americans sat glued to their television sets as U.S. soldiers and Iraqi citizens joined together to topple the statue of Saddam Hussein in Baghdad's Firdos Square. Like the fall of the Berlin wall, the fall of Saddam's statue appeared to be one of those iconic moments that proved - spontaneously and undeniably - that democracy would always triumph over totalitarianism, that freedom was the great equalizer. If you don't have goose bumps now, said Fox News anchor David Asman as the extraordinary footage rolled, you will never have them in your life. Jubilant Iraqis Swarm the Streets of Capital, read the New York Times headline. Or did they? In their eye-opening new expos, Weapons of Mass Deception: The Uses of Propaganda in Bush's War on Iraq, Rampton and Stauber take no prisoners as they reveal - headline by headline, news show by news show, press conference by press conference - the deliberate, aggressive, and highly successful public relations campaign that sold the Iraqi war to the American public. April 9th seemed to confirm what Washington and pro-war pundits had been saying for months: that the Iraqi people would eventually come to see America as their liberator, not their enemy. Yet the American media chose to focus on headlines such as Iraqis Celebrate in Baghdad (Washington Post) rather than on a Reuters long-shot photo of Firdos Square showing it to be nearly empty, or the Muslim cleric who was assassinated by an angry crowd in Najaf for being too friendly to the Americans, or the 20,000 Iraqis in Nasiriyah rallying to oppose the U.S. military presence. We've always known what good PR and advertising could do for a new line of sneakers, cosmetics, or weight-loss products. In Weapons of Mass Deception, Rampton and Stauber show us a brave new shocking world where savvy marketers, information warriors, and perception managers can sell an entire war to consumers. Indeed, Washington successfully brought together the world's top ad agencies and media empires to create Operation: Iraqi Freedom - a product no decent, patriotic citizen could possibly object to. With meticulous research and documentation, Rampton and Stauber deconstruct this and other true lies behind the war: * Top Bush officials advocated the invasion of Iraq even before he took office, but waited until September 2002 to inform the public, through what the White House termed a product launch. * White House officials used repetition and misinformation - the big lie tactic - to create the false impression that Iraq was behind the September 11th terrorist attacks on the United States, especially in the case of the alleged meeting in Prague five months earlier between 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta and Iraqi intelligence officials. * The big lie tactic was also employed in the first Iraq war when a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl named Nayirah told the horrific - but fabricated - story of Iraqi soldiers wrenching hundreds of premature Kuwaiti babies from their incubators and leaving them to die. Her testimony was printed in a press kit prepared by Citizens for a Free Kuwait, a PR front group created by Hill and Knowlton, then the world's largest PR firm. * In order to achieve third party authenticity in the Muslim world, a group called the Council of American Muslims for Understanding launched its own web site, called OpenDialogue.com. However, its chairman admitted that the idea began with the State Department, and that the group was funded by the U.S. government. * Forged documents were used to prove that Iraq possessed huge stockpiles of banned weapons. * A secretive PR firm working for the Pentagon helped create the Iraqi National Congress (INC), which became one of the driving forces behind the decision to go to war. Weapons of Mass Deception is the first book to expose the aggressive public relations campaign used to sell the American public on the war with Iraq. It is a must-read for those who want to know how and why they bought this war. TABLE OF CONTENTS ACKNOWLEDGMENTS INTRODUCTION: Liberation Day CHAPTER 1: Branding America CHAPTER 2: War Is Sell CHAPTER 3: True Lies CHAPTER 4: Doublespeak CHAPTER 5: The Uses of Fear CHAPTER 6: The Air War CHAPTER 7: As Others See Us INDEX Forwarded from another list. I
