Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)
Hello to all, Would Todd or some other send a description of a closed loop heat exchanger? I would greatly appreciate it. Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it) Hi Aaron Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on the differences of wood flames and propane flames, though. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)
Hi Aaron Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on the differences of wood flames and propane flames, though. On the other hand, there's information on the JTF website about using milk cartons with sawdust and byproduct. It's under the glycerine section. Is anyone using these to heat their oil, and if so, how are those used to heat in a way that can be immediately shut off? I didn't think someone might try to do that to heat the biodiesel process direct, it'd be far too awkward and uncontrollable. Those glyc logs burn fiercely! I didn't think anyone would try using a plain woodfire either. People use the glyc logs in woodfires and woodstoves for space heating, the JtF ref refers to heating 80 litres of water - a bath, in fact. Obviously it *can't* be immediately shut off, which would preclude any idea of using it for direct process heat. I see I shall have to include a warning about this. In my previous message to you I suggested using the glyc logs, but specified it was to heat your wood stove, not direct, using a closed loop heat exchanger, and I also specified closed processors. On a slightly different note, is there anyone turning off the heat entirely before adding the methoxide/ethanol equivalent? This would be ideal because it could eliminate the need to heat the mixing tank if the oil were pre-heated. Once you've got it up to process temp (say 55 deg C - 130F), added the methoxide and processing starts, it doesn't require much extra heat to keep it at that temp (unless the ambient temp's unreasonably low). I'm not certain about this but I have the idea that the process itself releases heat, enough to help, at least. (Does anyone know if this is so and if so how it works?) Mark, for one, wraps her processor in many layers of insulation. Tom Leue said the thermostat failed, so it wasn't an open-flame heat source but electrical heating. If anything, a rheostat would be better than a thermostat. Thermostats keep switching the power on and off to keep the temperature ranging as little as possible either side of what you're aiming at, which puts a strain on everything concerned, IMO. A rheostat, once set, won't do that. (I'm particularly interested if this would work for any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.) You're attracted by ethanol and by the acid-base method, as many people are. Have you made any biodiesel yet? It's always advised, at least at JtF and here, that both using ethanol to make biodiesel and the two-stage processes are not for novices, these are advanced methods. It's not just idle advice, it's sound advice from many experienced users. Start at the beginning, learn the basic skills, ie the single-stage process using methanol, then move on to more complex techniques when you have some experience, if you wish. Start here: Where do I start? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start Anyway, the first stage of the acid-base method needs the temp maintained for an hour, but the second stage for 1.5-2.5 hours, maybe not so easy just on pre-heating. Todd: I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by the following: SNIPNo matter what you use as an open flame heat source TIGHT BUILDINGS ARE A MUST! /SNIP Do you mean that the reactor MUST be located inside a tight building? Many people have reactors outside. Next possibility: if you use an open flame heat source, the flame must be in a tight building, with no fuel in it. In your opinion, is there a safe distance to separate the processor/fuel storage from an open flame heat source if the whole thing is done under a roof only? Now, it seems that some folks are using oil burners to heat their fuel. What is an oil burner that is NOT an open flame heat source? Or maybe a better question for you would be, what is the difference between a metal box with one inlet and one outlet and a similar metal box that burns wood? quote from glycerin section of journey to forever. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn Some biodiesel brewers are burning the by-product raw to provide heat for the biodiesel process. They use pot burners with a forced air supply piped in from an external fan. There are various designs being used, and a variety of ways of controlling the fuel supply and pre-heating the by-product so it flows evenly to the burner. These are not oil burners per se, they're the Turk burners I referred you to earlier. I also mentioned the MEN waste oil heater (for space heating), a different animal, not instantly controllable, and not recommended for providing process heat, though like a wood stove it could be harnessed to a closed-loop heat exchanger from a distance. Turk-type burners are more controllable, or can be, though not as much so as propane, say, but the same rule applies as with all open-flame heat sources - use a heat exchanger and a CLOSED processor. Question for anyone: if you are using waste oil in a
Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)
Aaron, I wasn't referring to a closed loop on the exchanger, which is more or less a given. I was speaking of a closed loop reactor to prevent vapors from leaving the system, or at least not until the vast majority had passed through a condensor and been recovered - erego the vent after the condensor as a pressure release mechanism. As to your unsurity relative to this: SNIPNo matter what you use as an open flame heat source TIGHT BUILDINGS ARE A MUST! /SNIP You need to keep flame sources and vapor sources separate - very separate! If you put your wood stove in a breezy shack two feet neighboring a breezy reactor shack you've accomplished virtually nothing. I've seen people put a wood stove but four feet outside a reactor building wall, with the reactor building being nothing better than cardboard and toothpicks. Again, you need a combination of distance (vapor dillution) and/or building integrity to keep vapors safely apart from a flame. As for Now, it seems that some folks are using oil burners to heat their fuel. What is an oil burner that is NOT an open flame heat source? Or maybe a better question for you would be, what is the difference between a metal box with one inlet and one outlet and a similar metal box that burns wood? You still need to keep potential vapors and the heat source safely separate. Doesn't matter if it's a Babington, propane, natural gas, wood, etc. There is the benefit that at least the former of the three are nozzle fuels and can be shutdown remotely with but a flip of a valve or switch. That cannot be said for wood heat, which gives need to use even greater caution if it is used. If it turns out we can't heat our space in the winter, we won't. You can, efficiently and cheaply. It just has to be done safely. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Aaron F. Wieler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 7:29 PM Subject: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it) Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on the differences of wood flames and propane flames, though. On the other hand, there's information on the JTF website about using milk cartons with sawdust and byproduct. It's under the glycerine section. Is anyone using these to heat their oil, and if so, how are those used to heat in a way that can be immediately shut off? On a slightly different note, is there anyone turning off the heat entirely before adding the methoxide/ethanol equivalent? This would be ideal because it could eliminate the need to heat the mixing tank if the oil were pre-heated. (I'm particularly interested if this would work for any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.) Todd: I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by the following: SNIPNo matter what you use as an open flame heat source TIGHT BUILDINGS ARE A MUST! /SNIP Do you mean that the reactor MUST be located inside a tight building? Many people have reactors outside. Next possibility: if you use an open flame heat source, the flame must be in a tight building, with no fuel in it. In your opinion, is there a safe distance to separate the processor/fuel storage from an open flame heat source if the whole thing is done under a roof only? Now, it seems that some folks are using oil burners to heat their fuel. What is an oil burner that is NOT an open flame heat source? Or maybe a better question for you would be, what is the difference between a metal box with one inlet and one outlet and a similar metal box that burns wood? quote from glycerin section of journey to forever. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn Some biodiesel brewers are burning the by-product raw to provide heat for the biodiesel process. They use pot burners with a forced air supply piped in from an external fan. There are various designs being used, and a variety of ways of controlling the fuel supply and pre-heating the by-product so it flows evenly to the burner. Question for anyone: if you are using waste oil in a burner/stove assembly, where is your burner located in relation to your reactor and chemical/fuel storage? And Todd, thanks for your concern. But I'm not going to blow anything up. The idea of having a wood stove in the same room as the reactor wasn't thought through enough for posting on this list, obviously. If it turns out we can't heat our space in the winter, we won't. On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Appal Energy wrote: Aaron, DON'T DO IT we were thinking about trying to set up a heat exchanger from a wood stove in the same shack, which would be the only heating system for the reactor and oil/fuel storage area, Not unless the open flame (stove) is completely removed from the processing room, separate in its own building or far enough away that an alcohol spill in one building wouldn't be catastrophic at whatever distance away. You can
Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)
William, A picture of a closed loop heat exchanger doesn't require much imagination. Picture the following in a circular loop: A liquid resevoir (1/2 gallon, sometimes more, maybe less, depending upon need) heated by your fuel of choice, and a method of circulation (pump or convection) that continually cycles the fluid in a loop. An appropriate pressure release (vent) is installed should over pressurization occur from a heat source that has gone or is erratic. I suppose the term open or closed has more to do with the transfer medium, with air type exchangers (such as those installed in the exhaust stream of wood stoves) being considered an open exchange and those where the medium is liquid being closed. The loop fraction of the description would come from the medium continually being recycled, reducing the amount of heat needed to be transferred in order to recharge the system to a level that a requisite amount of heat in turn be exchanged. Intake on the plenum of a central heat or cooling unit might be considered closed loop. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it) Hello to all, Would Todd or some other send a description of a closed loop heat exchanger? I would greatly appreciate it. Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it) Hi Aaron Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on the differences of wood flames and propane flames, though. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)
Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on the differences of wood flames and propane flames, though. On the other hand, there's information on the JTF website about using milk cartons with sawdust and byproduct. It's under the glycerine section. Is anyone using these to heat their oil, and if so, how are those used to heat in a way that can be immediately shut off? On a slightly different note, is there anyone turning off the heat entirely before adding the methoxide/ethanol equivalent? This would be ideal because it could eliminate the need to heat the mixing tank if the oil were pre-heated. (I'm particularly interested if this would work for any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.) Todd: I'm actually not entirely sure what you mean by the following: SNIPNo matter what you use as an open flame heat source TIGHT BUILDINGS ARE A MUST! /SNIP Do you mean that the reactor MUST be located inside a tight building? Many people have reactors outside. Next possibility: if you use an open flame heat source, the flame must be in a tight building, with no fuel in it. In your opinion, is there a safe distance to separate the processor/fuel storage from an open flame heat source if the whole thing is done under a roof only? Now, it seems that some folks are using oil burners to heat their fuel. What is an oil burner that is NOT an open flame heat source? Or maybe a better question for you would be, what is the difference between a metal box with one inlet and one outlet and a similar metal box that burns wood? quote from glycerin section of journey to forever. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#burn Some biodiesel brewers are burning the by-product raw to provide heat for the biodiesel process. They use pot burners with a forced air supply piped in from an external fan. There are various designs being used, and a variety of ways of controlling the fuel supply and pre-heating the by-product so it flows evenly to the burner. Question for anyone: if you are using waste oil in a burner/stove assembly, where is your burner located in relation to your reactor and chemical/fuel storage? And Todd, thanks for your concern. But I'm not going to blow anything up. The idea of having a wood stove in the same room as the reactor wasn't thought through enough for posting on this list, obviously. If it turns out we can't heat our space in the winter, we won't. On Sun, 26 Oct 2003, Appal Energy wrote: Aaron, DON'T DO IT we were thinking about trying to set up a heat exchanger from a wood stove in the same shack, which would be the only heating system for the reactor and oil/fuel storage area, Not unless the open flame (stove) is completely removed from the processing room, separate in its own building or far enough away that an alcohol spill in one building wouldn't be catastrophic at whatever distance away. You can always shuttle space heat from one building (even if it's nothing more than the size of an ice fishing shack) to another using ducts and forced air. The heat exchanger idea is grand. That too can be pumped from one building to another. Having a continual open flame such as wood anywhere in remote proximity to a processor needs to be done with a grand amount of intelligence. WOOD FLAME IS NOT LIKE GAS, in that you can shut it off reasonably quickly in the event a remote spill in a neighboring building. No matter what you use as an open flame heat source TIGHT BUILDINGS ARE A MUST! If you use wood, you'll need to have a system that includes thermocouples that control the heat exchanger's flow. Otherwise you're going to end up in the same pickle as Tom did with a frothing, boiling reactor. You can control temp when using natural gas or propane by using bare-bones rudimentary methods, such as a thermometer, observation, notepad, pencil and manually calibrating gas and exchanger valves. With wood and similar open flame combustibles you cannot due to the variation in heat output second by second. Also, if you don't take the pains to create a closed loop (with external vent after the condensor) you'll be begging for a disaster. Almost the worst that can happen with a closed system is that you turn it into a reflux reactor - one that boils its contents to achieve agitation rather than using pumps or impellers. Making biodiesel may be simple, but simplicity without forethought can be deadly. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Aaron F. Wieler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] UCSC Biodiesel program update we were thinking about trying to set up a heat exchanger from a wood stove in the same shack, which would be the only heating system for the reactor and oil/fuel storage area, but it sounds like we should have no sparks anywhere near the processor, if not for real safety concerns then for leverage to
