RE: [biofuel] Re: diesel or hybrid?

[Ryan Morgan, Aerials Express]

Good article, Hakan!

You might want to have it proofread though.

-Original Message-
From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 2:40 AM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: diesel or hybrid?



Rolede,

I think that you really pushed the right button here.

As I pointed out in my failed bid for the US presidency (do
not accept non resident, non American and not born in US
candidates, -:)). The Lupo and compatible cars, with biodiesel,
is the only way to make a dent in the US oil dependency
at 2010.

I have also mentioned this in my free 2,000 gallon biodiesel
initiative.

I have given the American people the key to oil independence,
now it is only to make the right choice. I suppose that all news
agencies will publish and everybody will read it with interest. -:)

For diesel alternative in general see,

Diesel engine, as a "ready for use" energy saving technology.
by Hakan Falk at Energy Saving Now.
<http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/dieseltech.shtml>http://energy.saving.nu/b
iofuels/dieseltech.shtml


Hakan


At 12:47 AM 9/27/2003, you wrote:
>While the Prius has much to offer, it is not the most fuel efficient car
>ouit there.
>
>It is easily beaten by the VW Lupo 3L TDI, which has a three cylinder
>Diesel engine with direct fuel injection and a displacement of 1.2
>litres, which produces 45 kW of power.
>
>It is called the '3L' because it's official fuel consumption is below
>three litres per 100 km-94.1 miles per gallon. On a recent trek of
>20,6999 miles at an average speed of 53.1 mph, it averaged 118 miles per
>gallon. The worst it got was 100.9 mpg, and the best was 141.9 mpg.
>
>Since this Diesel can be driven on Bio Fuel, it would be low in
>pollution, while independant of fossil fuel. Diesels if taken care of can
>do in excess of 400,000 miles.
>
>You can also produce your own Bio Fuel for the Lupo- not so for the
>Prius.
>
>VW is working towards a goal of 300 MPG using Diesel technology.
>
>By contrast the Prius uses gasoline-(something you can't make, and is a
>major pollutant, as well as a depleting resourse, of anti-American
>countries)- as well as electric. Someday, those batteries will have to be
>replaced, and at a substantial cost to either you- if you keep it that
>long, or the person you sell it to and it's resale price affected by that
>replacement cost- eventuality.
>
>While it may be noble to support hybrid technology, Diesel
>technology-which Rudolf Diesel designed and originated as a NON FOSSIL
>FUEL alternative (and was murdered for it), should deserve just as much
>-if not more, support.
>
>Rolede




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Re: [biofuel] Re: diesel or hybrid?

[Hakan Falk]

Rolede,

I think that you really pushed the right button here.

As I pointed out in my failed bid for the US presidency (do
not accept non resident, non American and not born in US
candidates, -:)). The Lupo and compatible cars, with biodiesel,
is the only way to make a dent in the US oil dependency
at 2010.

I have also mentioned this in my free 2,000 gallon biodiesel
initiative.

I have given the American people the key to oil independence,
now it is only to make the right choice. I suppose that all news
agencies will publish and everybody will read it with interest. -:)

For diesel alternative in general see,

Diesel engine, as a "ready for use" energy saving technology.
by Hakan Falk at Energy Saving Now.
http://energy.saving.nu/biofuels/dieseltech.shtml


Hakan


At 12:47 AM 9/27/2003, you wrote:
>While the Prius has much to offer, it is not the most fuel efficient car
>ouit there.
>
>It is easily beaten by the VW Lupo 3L TDI, which has a three cylinder
>Diesel engine with direct fuel injection and a displacement of 1.2
>litres, which produces 45 kW of power.
>
>It is called the '3L' because it's official fuel consumption is below
>three litres per 100 km-94.1 miles per gallon. On a recent trek of
>20,6999 miles at an average speed of 53.1 mph, it averaged 118 miles per
>gallon. The worst it got was 100.9 mpg, and the best was 141.9 mpg.
>
>Since this Diesel can be driven on Bio Fuel, it would be low in
>pollution, while independant of fossil fuel. Diesels if taken care of can
>do in excess of 400,000 miles.
>
>You can also produce your own Bio Fuel for the Lupo- not so for the
>Prius.
>
>VW is working towards a goal of 300 MPG using Diesel technology.
>
>By contrast the Prius uses gasoline-(something you can't make, and is a
>major pollutant, as well as a depleting resourse, of anti-American
>countries)- as well as electric. Someday, those batteries will have to be
>replaced, and at a substantial cost to either you- if you keep it that
>long, or the person you sell it to and it's resale price affected by that
>replacement cost- eventuality.
>
>While it may be noble to support hybrid technology, Diesel
>technology-which Rudolf Diesel designed and originated as a NON FOSSIL
>FUEL alternative (and was murdered for it), should deserve just as much
>-if not more, support.
>
>Rolede



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Re: [biofuel] Re: diesel or hybrid?

[rolede]

While the Prius has much to offer, it is not the most fuel efficient car
ouit there. 

It is easily beaten by the VW Lupo 3L TDI, which has a three cylinder
Diesel engine with direct fuel injection and a displacement of 1.2
litres, which produces 45 kW of power.

It is called the '3L' because it's official fuel consumption is below
three litres per 100 km-94.1 miles per gallon. On a recent trek of
20,6999 miles at an average speed of 53.1 mph, it averaged 118 miles per
gallon. The worst it got was 100.9 mpg, and the best was 141.9 mpg.

Since this Diesel can be driven on Bio Fuel, it would be low in
pollution, while independant of fossil fuel. Diesels if taken care of can
do in excess of 400,000 miles.

You can also produce your own Bio Fuel for the Lupo- not so for the
Prius.

VW is working towards a goal of 300 MPG using Diesel technology.

By contrast the Prius uses gasoline-(something you can't make, and is a
major pollutant, as well as a depleting resourse, of anti-American
countries)- as well as electric. Someday, those batteries will have to be
replaced, and at a substantial cost to either you- if you keep it that
long, or the person you sell it to and it's resale price affected by that
replacement cost- eventuality.

While it may be noble to support hybrid technology, Diesel
technology-which Rudolf Diesel designed and originated as a NON FOSSIL
FUEL alternative (and was murdered for it), should deserve just as much
-if not more, support.

Rolede


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[biofuel] re: diesel or hybrid?

[Keith Addison]

Hi Thor

Just been some discussion on PNGV in another thread. You might have a 
look at this post:

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=28505&list=BIOFUEL

Check out the Jack Doyle interview, explains quite a lot. And the 
Mokhiber-Weissman review.

>Thanks to everyone who responded on this thread.  I
>wanted to add one more comment to the discussion.
>
>During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S.
>auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid
>concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a
>New Generation of Vehicle."  Some were more realistic
>than others, but all had high mileages, and all were
>unveiled 1998-2001.  Interesting that as soon as our
>current President took office, this initiative left
>the headlines.

Yes, now isn't that odd!! It was Gore who pushed PNGV, and diesels. 
Could have made a big difference. But the new guys made a different 
deal and the US blithely continues its utterly gross pig-out on 
petroleum, and sod the rest of us, and the future. It's warping the 
whole planet, and it will have to stop, like it or not. Sooner would 
be better (and less painful).

>At least one of these, the GM Precept, metamorphosed
>into a fuel-cell electric hybrid, and has still not
>been released.
>
>Detroit certainly missed getting any of my car-buying
>dollar.  And I would buy the diesel-hybrid Precept.
>Given the success of the Prius among consumers, I see
>the attitude of U.S. automakers as simply indicative
>of their reluctance to do ANYTHING new or innovative.
>Sure, they'll take our research money to develop
>products, but not introduce them.  It is baffling.  I
>realize that SUVs are just ridiculously profitable,
>but you'd think that at least ONE automaker would
>introduce something that the others don't have, to try
>to grab a slice of market share.  Looks an awful lot
>like oligopolistic behavior to me.

Well, yes. And I have to say it looks a lot like psychopathic 
behaviour to me, and I'm not the only one.

Anyway, contrary to myth, big biz doesn't do the market that way - 
they squeeze everyone else out one way or another, usually another, 
and then they divide it up into territories and keep off each other's 
patches. Organized crime also does it that way.

Regards

Keith



>best to all,
>
>thor skov
>
>http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/april98/departments/news_notes/n 
>ews_note.html
>
>http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/concept_cars/2001/1/GM_hybrid_ 
>gets_80_mpg/


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[biofuel] re: diesel or hybrid?

[Thor Skov]

Thanks to everyone who responded on this thread.  I
wanted to add one more comment to the discussion.

During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S.
auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid
concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a
New Generation of Vehicle."  Some were more realistic
than others, but all had high mileages, and all were
unveiled 1998-2001.  Interesting that as soon as our
current President took office, this initiative left
the headlines.

At least one of these, the GM Precept, metamorphosed
into a fuel-cell electric hybrid, and has still not
been released.

Detroit certainly missed getting any of my car-buying
dollar.  And I would buy the diesel-hybrid Precept. 
Given the success of the Prius among consumers, I see
the attitude of U.S. automakers as simply indicative
of their reluctance to do ANYTHING new or innovative. 
Sure, they'll take our research money to develop
products, but not introduce them.  It is baffling.  I
realize that SUVs are just ridiculously profitable,
but you'd think that at least ONE automaker would
introduce something that the others don't have, to try
to grab a slice of market share.  Looks an awful lot
like oligopolistic behavior to me.

best to all,

thor skov

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/april98/departments/news_notes/news_note.html

http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/concept_cars/2001/1/GM_hybrid_gets_80_mpg/


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[biofuel] Re: diesel or hybrid?

[Forbes Bagatelle-Black]

Hello Biofuel folks,

I am reposting this message that I originally put up on the evworld 
server.  The original message was on this list, but it got 
reposted.  Please understand that I am doing so here hoping that 
someone will provide a counter point which will educate me more on 
biodiesel.

Thanks.

Forbes Bagatelle-Black



I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I would buy the 
Prius.  Not that the TDI would be a bad choice!  In terms of 
protecting the environment right here and now, I would say that the 
choice is a "wash."  Both vehicles presents significant benefits in 
terms of clean emissions.

However, looking into the effect your choice will have on the future 
of transportation technology, I think buying the Prius today now will 
do the most good at the present time.  I say this because of several 
reasons, including:

1.  Electric drivetrain technology needs our support right now.  With 
the Bush administration gutting funding to the pure EV industry, it is 
critically important that research on battery and motor technology be 
supported by other means.  Hybrid vehicle development does support 
this technology, but research being done in hybrid development will 
have benefits to vehicular design which go far beyond the hybrid 
electric/gasoline industry. 

2.  Supporting hybrids will result in demonstrable benefits to  
biodiesel-powered vehicles.  As others have posted, a diesel/electric 
hybrid would combine many of the benefits from both technologies.  
Correct me if I am wrong here, but I seem to remember that some of the 
extremely high-efficiency diesels have a fairly peaky efficiency 
curve.  They like to stay in their "sweet spot" efficiency-wise.  A 
hybrid diesel/electric drivetrain  would allow them to do so.

3.  Diesel drivetrains are approaching their theoretical peak 
efficiency points.  This makes battery and motor technologies 
(especially battery technology) the "long poles" in the tent.  
Investing in these technologies now will help bring them up to par 
with internal combustion technologies.

Now, I readily admit that I am biased.  I know a lot more about 
hybrids and pure electrics than about biodiesel, so I am hoping that a 
biodiesel expert will offer an educational counterpoint.

Respectfully,

Forbes Bagatelle-Black


--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Thor Skov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'd like to pose a question to forum.
> 
> I am considering swapping my 2001 Golf TDI for another
> car, one that is an automatic rather than a stick.  I
> have to do a lot of driving for my job (about 90 miles
> a day), and although I prefer stick driving, the
> clutching is bothering my pelvis and leg.
> 
> So, I am contemplating getting either a new Jetta TDI
> wagon (I really like the VWs) or the second generation
> toyota Prius.  The question for me is what type of
> technology should I support, from the standpoints both
> of environmental impact and incentives to auto
> manufacturers.
> 
> On the one hand, I want to be able to continue to burn
> biodiesel, which makes up approximately 1/4 of my fuel
> consumption--more if the proposed subsidy goes through
> (assuming World Energy drops its prices accordingly
> and/or the Ferndale plant actually starts producing
> sometime this decade).  Biodiesel has good
> environmental benefits, gets decent mileage (maybe 45
> mpg with the automatic), and is a great conversation
> item with which to get people thinking about
> sustainability.  Also, there is the option to convert
> to SVO down the road.  I don't have a feel for the
> extent to which my purchase will encourage VW and
> other european firms to start selling more
> high-efficient diesel models in the U.S.
> 
> On the other hand, the new Prius gets considerably
> better mileage, and is a SULEV/PZEV.  Not being carbon
> neutral withstanding, it pollutes much less than the
> TDI.  Toyota is far out in front of Detroit (and
> Europe) in hybrid development, and there is something
> to be said I think for rewarding that innovation. 
> U.S. automakers haven't even put out a first
> generation hybrid vehicle and Toyota is already
> working on its third generation.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> thor skov
> 
> p.s. I'd really prefer a jetcar, if I could get one!
> 
> =
> "Sentiment without action is the ruin of the soul." 
>  --Edward Abbey
> 
> Grants Manager, Stillaguamish Tribe Of Indians
> P.O. Box 277  Arlington, WA 98223-0277
> Phone:  (360) 652-7362  Ext 284
> Fax:  (360) 435-7689



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