RE: [Biofuel] Powerdown
Peggy, I do not understand "it is never to late", if you missed your train or bus, you were too late. It does not mean that you cannot take the next train or bus, or that you should maybe walk instead and take the opportunity to get exercise. Under all circumstances, you are likely to face some kind of consequences, whatever they are. I am not that concerned about the eventual consequences that US will face, since I live in EU and they seems to be a bit ahead on the issues and that is certainly worth to celebrate, as you suggest. Then, I can always move home to Sweden, who is way ahead of EU. The oil industry even officially complained about Sweden and came with some disguised threats about that the energy savings was going to far. LOL I do not think that Iraq is only a tremor and if it is, I am getting afraid of what tremors US will try next. It is only the beginning of many global tremors, like military threats and execution of them. It is not unthinkable that it could lead to a WWIII, since EU, Russia and China are more and more getting in an opposite interest situation to US. At least there are a lot of people that lost their confidence with US and they are dumping the dollar as fast as possible. By all financial definitions, this have led to that US is quite close to both financial and moral bankruptcy and is rapidly losing whatever capital they had before in the eyes of the world. I find it sad, when so many other people of nations, voice the opinion that "US deserves it". The world is for sure changing, if you live outside US and can see it. Hakan At 04:32 PM 11/19/2004, you wrote: Hello Haken, It's never too late. There will always be solutions...however, the problems may compound before the masses agree to institute their personal self-discipline. The way of the future has to come from individuals rather than governments. Visualize tremors (as a possible mind-set) instead of upheavals, please. It's not us against the world--we are creating our own reality personally and collectively. Celebrating the good can do as much or more good than damning the bad. It feels good to feel good. Peggy H: My opinion is that it will not be possible to avoid significant upheavals, but there are many actions that can minimize the effects of them. It becomes a timing issue and we are already too late. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Powerdown
Hello Haken, It's never too late. There will always be solutions...however, the problems may compound before the masses agree to institute their personal self-discipline. The way of the future has to come from individuals rather than governments. Visualize tremors (as a possible mind-set) instead of upheavals, please. It's not us against the world--we are creating our own reality personally and collectively. Celebrating the good can do as much or more good than damning the bad. It feels good to feel good. Peggy H: My opinion is that it will not be possible to avoid significant upheavals, but there are many actions that can minimize the effects of them. It becomes a timing issue and we are already too late. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Powerdown
Ken, The position of that there aren't any solutions, is a position that must concern the developed countries and in particular US. The majority of the world have not Powered Up yet. Unfortunately, where I live, it is not just to go out and buy these books and therefore I have not read it. My opinion is that it will not be possible to avoid significant upheavals, but there are many actions that can minimize the effects of them. It becomes a timing issue and we are already too late. Hakan At 05:11 PM 11/18/2004, you wrote: on 11/18/04 7:15 AM, Darryl McMahon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I have finished reading Powerdown (Options and Actions for a > Post-Carbon World) by Richard Heinberg. > Recommended. > > Indeed. A sobering book, like his previous one (The Party's Over). > I would have liked to have seen more coverage of viable solutions. As you know, his position is that there AREN'T any, if by "solution" you mean a way to avoid severe social and economic discontinuity in the near future by gracefully transitioning from petroleum to something else. > Heinberg also raises the de-population issue to an extent I have > not seen since Ehrlich. I was intrigued by his discussion of the "hands off" attitude of many progressives when it comes to the issue of overpopulation. The whole idea that there is a fundamental and under-recognized tension between the social movements (individual right to procreate or not, with no govt. interference), and the ecology movements (obvious difficulties becoming sustainable with 11+ billion humans on board). Quite a pickle we're in, and he describes it chillingly. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Powerdown
I saw on one of the new sites today that the US now has "intelligence" proving that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons. Sounds like another WMD issue coming. Made me think about the article posted here a while back about Iran being next. Seems to be playing out that way. That, plus the strength of the Euro against the dollar, China revaluing the Yuan... Things just keep looking worse, but everyone still seems to have their head deeply into the sand (or somewhere else). Brian > I have finished reading Powerdown (Options and Actions for a Post-Carbon > World) by > Richard Heinberg. (c 2004, New Society Publishers, ISBN 0865715106) > > Recommended. > > A bit high-level for my taste, but definitely addresses the peak oil issue > and what > happens after. Covers four basic scenarios: > > 1) Last One Standing, > > 2) Powerdown, > > 3) Waiting for a Magic Elixir, and > > 4) Building Lifeboats. > > The current U.S. "strategy", including Iraq, falls under #1. > > The hydrogen economy falls under #3. > > #4 is largely about what we can do given the powers that be are following > #1. And > #2 is what Heinberg thinks we should be doing. > > Once again, good to see someone else wondering what happened to Lovins and > Rifkin > in their support for the hydrogen economy. > > The book contains reasonable coverage of where we're going wrong (at the > planetary > level) and addresses some of the mainstream mirages at a reasonable level. > I would > have liked to have seen more coverage of viable solutions. While I concur > that we > need to really work the conservation and efficiency issues first, I would > have > liked to have seen more than passing mention to solutions like wind, > solar, hydro, > biofuels etc. > > Heinberg also raises the de-population issue to an extent I have not seen > since > Ehrlich. > > It was nice to see someone make the distinction between preservationists > and > survivalists. > > On a somewhat related note, I spent last Tuesday evening at the Canadian > Nuclear > Waste Management Organization Public Consulation travelling road show. I > went as a > member of the public. We were outnumbered by the staff (4 to 2). > Fascinating > hour. I was misled and flat out lied to. Apparently I have acquired > another > project, tilting at reactors, to coin a phrase. > > I will be out of town when President Bush comes to town at the end of the > month. I > suspect that's a good thing. > > Darryl McMahon > > -- > Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com/ > It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Powerdown
on 11/18/04 7:15 AM, Darryl McMahon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I have finished reading Powerdown (Options and Actions for a > Post-Carbon World) by Richard Heinberg. > Recommended. > > Indeed. A sobering book, like his previous one (The Party's Over). > I would have liked to have seen more coverage of viable solutions. As you know, his position is that there AREN'T any, if by "solution" you mean a way to avoid severe social and economic discontinuity in the near future by gracefully transitioning from petroleum to something else. > Heinberg also raises the de-population issue to an extent I have > not seen since Ehrlich. I was intrigued by his discussion of the "hands off" attitude of many progressives when it comes to the issue of overpopulation. The whole idea that there is a fundamental and under-recognized tension between the social movements (individual right to procreate or not, with no govt. interference), and the ecology movements (obvious difficulties becoming sustainable with 11+ billion humans on board). Quite a pickle we're in, and he describes it chillingly. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
