RE: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil
Mike, Forget the algae. At the moment it is not worth it. You require huge amounts of land, huge amounts of infrastructure and then the ability to actually grow the little beggers. Oh I forgot to mention, which one do you use? There are many thousands of stains of algae but only a few have been looked at. Like a lot of other people on this list I was fired up about algae, spent some time in the Uni library, had my biochemist wife decipher some things for me and came away with the conclusion that it will require quite a bit of PhD level research and then big $$$ for the setup before it can go ahead. Whilst algae do multiply rapidly thay are a lot harder to grow than corn/canoloa/wheat etc. Regards, Andrew Lowe To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: Mike Brownstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date sent: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:03:41 +0200 Send reply to: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject:RE: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil Here, here Bob, I've been thinking about this for a while now ( I like the idea of algae farms ). Can you, perhaps refer me to more information. You know, which are the best to use, conditions of growing etc.. Mike [SNIP] //***\\ || Two things get me out of the water quickly: || || sharks and toilet paper. || || Billy Connelly || ||***|| || Andrew Lowe B.Eng.(Civil) GradIEAust PEng || || Wombat High Tech *|* Eng. App. Programming|| || [EMAIL PROTECTED] *|* Perth, Australia || || www.wht.com.au *|* C, C++, MDL, Java|| \\***// Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil
Hi Mike, I was quoting from From the fryer to the fuel tank but I do know their was a research group here in Cambridge doing work on algae some years ago. I will try and find out more from my university contacts. bob - Original Message - From: Mike Brownstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil Here, here Bob, I've been thinking about this for a while now ( I like the idea of algae farms ). Can you, perhaps refer me to more information. You know, which are the best to use, conditions of growing etc.. Mike -Original Message- From: bob golding [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 1:27 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil If you look at the yields from oil bearing algae compared to soybean or rape, that is the best area to throw the technology at rather than improving current crop yields,and pushing bio-diesel further into the clutches of M--s--t- and Ca-g--l and the like Oil,grain,soybeans, it's all the same to them. The beauty of bio-diesel as I see it is that it doesn't need large corporations to make it work. It can be produced locally and sold locally. Economies of scale is usually a euphemism for larger profits for the few. It doesn't have to be that way with boid. With petro diesel you can't just go out and drill for it. You have to invest billions in exploration, so the oil companies keep telling us when asked to justify their 3 million pounds a hour or whatever. This may be true ,but their motivation is profit for their shareholders, not can I take less from the enviroment This does not strike me as a sustainable system. If you don't think this is true just ask anyone in Southern Nigeria or Columbia. cheers bob golding - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil Joseph Martelle wrote: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html Vegetable oil yields tables: Journey to Forever What about that Jerusalem artichoke I've read about? Fairly high yielding? Not even on the table - loads of carbohydrates (not starch), but not a lot of oil. Good for ethanol though. What we need is for those genetic engineers to to start looking at soybean, rapeseed, peanut, or other oil producing plant and modifying the genome to produce more oil than fruit.Can you imagine doubling or tripling the oil yeild from rapeseed or soybeans? Has anyone even considered research in this area? Dunno, maybe. But most of it so far seems tied either to securing a market sector or to securing sales of associated products (eg herbicides). One looks hard for success stories. RR (Roundup-Ready) herbicide-resistant soybeans are losing their resistance (leading to increased use of herbicides, up to 30% more than with non-GE soy, instead of the decreased use we were promised) as well as their yields - yields are sagging badly. One doesn't have to look too hard for outright failures (Starlink), and for side-effects we were promised and assured were impossible but they're now happening anyway. And of course the whole technology as it applies to food has lost its consumer acceptance - I don't think it's the technology itself people don't trust, it's the companies doing it. These folks don't have a good record with this kind of stuff, nor with anything else much. So I'm sure what you suggest is possible (what isn't these days?) but would it work out right? And with what unforeseen costs? Anyway, if you look through the amazing history of crop development over the last four millenia or so, you end up very impressed with the capabilities of traditional plant breeding through selection. It works, it's safe, and the benefits are widespread and permanent. Modern plant-breeding has produced nothing to equal the banana, said a modern plant-breeder. The banana is a man-made hybrid, produced a couple of thousand years ago, by all accounts. It can't reproduce itself, all bananas are propagated by hand and always have been. Wherever Europeans went discovering new (to them) parts of the world, the banana was there before them. It's of immense benefit to billions of people. Really first-class science. I'm not knocking GE, it's an immensely promising field, it's a huge pity (?) that its development is in the hands of these wisdomless dumbos who've given us so much else to be less than thankful for. A frequent question on the list (but recently, regarding newspapers) is ethanol production from cellulose, a technology that it seems just isn't there yet, despite all sorts of promising start-ups and so on. More info here: Ethanol resources
Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil
Hi Ron, I don't know about Alabama but in the UK Cargills have the largest, the only, oil processing plant in Europe for making Soya oil, so I suspect it is the same there.They do seem to have the market pretty well stitched up. I don't know if soybean is a good crop for ethanol production, I would have thought not ,but this is not based on any knowledge so don't take it as gospel. cheers bob - Original Message - From: ronald miller sr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 1:35 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil Bob, Is there any info out there regarding soybeans for ethanol use. We grow millions of pounds here in Alabama Thanks, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: bob golding [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil If you look at the yields from oil bearing algae compared to soybean or rape, that is the best area to throw the technology at rather than improving current crop yields,and pushing bio-diesel further into the clutches of M--s--t- and Ca-g--l and the like Oil,grain,soybeans, it's all the same to them. The beauty of bio-diesel as I see it is that it doesn't need large corporations to make it work. It can be produced locally and sold locally. Economies of scale is usually a euphemism for larger profits for the few. It doesn't have to be that way with boid. With petro diesel you can't just go out and drill for it. You have to invest billions in exploration, so the oil companies keep telling us when asked to justify their 3 million pounds a hour or whatever. This may be true ,but their motivation is profit for their shareholders, not can I take less from the enviroment This does not strike me as a sustainable system. If you don't think this is true just ask anyone in Southern Nigeria or Columbia. cheers bob golding - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil Joseph Martelle wrote: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html Vegetable oil yields tables: Journey to Forever What about that Jerusalem artichoke I've read about? Fairly high yielding? Not even on the table - loads of carbohydrates (not starch), but not a lot of oil. Good for ethanol though. What we need is for those genetic engineers to to start looking at soybean, rapeseed, peanut, or other oil producing plant and modifying the genome to produce more oil than fruit.Can you imagine doubling or tripling the oil yeild from rapeseed or soybeans? Has anyone even considered research in this area? Dunno, maybe. But most of it so far seems tied either to securing a market sector or to securing sales of associated products (eg herbicides). One looks hard for success stories. RR (Roundup-Ready) herbicide-resistant soybeans are losing their resistance (leading to increased use of herbicides, up to 30% more than with non-GE soy, instead of the decreased use we were promised) as well as their yields - yields are sagging badly. One doesn't have to look too hard for outright failures (Starlink), and for side-effects we were promised and assured were impossible but they're now happening anyway. And of course the whole technology as it applies to food has lost its consumer acceptance - I don't think it's the technology itself people don't trust, it's the companies doing it. These folks don't have a good record with this kind of stuff, nor with anything else much. So I'm sure what you suggest is possible (what isn't these days?) but would it work out right? And with what unforeseen costs? Anyway, if you look through the amazing history of crop development over the last four millenia or so, you end up very impressed with the capabilities of traditional plant breeding through selection. It works, it's safe, and the benefits are widespread and permanent. Modern plant-breeding has produced nothing to equal the banana, said a modern plant-breeder. The banana is a man-made hybrid, produced a couple of thousand years ago, by all accounts. It can't reproduce itself, all bananas are propagated by hand and always have been. Wherever Europeans went discovering new (to them) parts of the world, the banana was there before them. It's of immense benefit to billions of people. Really first-class science. I'm not knocking GE, it's an immensely promising field, it's a huge pity (?) that its development is in the hands of these wisdomless dumbos who've given us so much else to be less than thankful for. A frequent question on the list (but recently, regarding newspapers) is ethanol
Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil
If you look at the yields from oil bearing algae compared to soybean or rape, that is the best area to throw the technology at rather than improving current crop yields,and pushing bio-diesel further into the clutches of M--s--t- and Ca-g--l and the like Oil,grain,soybeans, it's all the same to them. The beauty of bio-diesel as I see it is that it doesn't need large corporations to make it work. It can be produced locally and sold locally. Economies of scale is usually a euphemism for larger profits for the few. It doesn't have to be that way with boid. With petro diesel you can't just go out and drill for it. You have to invest billions in exploration, so the oil companies keep telling us when asked to justify their 3 million pounds a hour or whatever. This may be true ,but their motivation is profit for their shareholders, not can I take less from the enviroment This does not strike me as a sustainable system. If you don't think this is true just ask anyone in Southern Nigeria or Columbia. cheers bob golding - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil Joseph Martelle wrote: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html Vegetable oil yields tables: Journey to Forever What about that Jerusalem artichoke I've read about? Fairly high yielding? Not even on the table - loads of carbohydrates (not starch), but not a lot of oil. Good for ethanol though. What we need is for those genetic engineers to to start looking at soybean, rapeseed, peanut, or other oil producing plant and modifying the genome to produce more oil than fruit.Can you imagine doubling or tripling the oil yeild from rapeseed or soybeans? Has anyone even considered research in this area? Dunno, maybe. But most of it so far seems tied either to securing a market sector or to securing sales of associated products (eg herbicides). One looks hard for success stories. RR (Roundup-Ready) herbicide-resistant soybeans are losing their resistance (leading to increased use of herbicides, up to 30% more than with non-GE soy, instead of the decreased use we were promised) as well as their yields - yields are sagging badly. One doesn't have to look too hard for outright failures (Starlink), and for side-effects we were promised and assured were impossible but they're now happening anyway. And of course the whole technology as it applies to food has lost its consumer acceptance - I don't think it's the technology itself people don't trust, it's the companies doing it. These folks don't have a good record with this kind of stuff, nor with anything else much. So I'm sure what you suggest is possible (what isn't these days?) but would it work out right? And with what unforeseen costs? Anyway, if you look through the amazing history of crop development over the last four millenia or so, you end up very impressed with the capabilities of traditional plant breeding through selection. It works, it's safe, and the benefits are widespread and permanent. Modern plant-breeding has produced nothing to equal the banana, said a modern plant-breeder. The banana is a man-made hybrid, produced a couple of thousand years ago, by all accounts. It can't reproduce itself, all bananas are propagated by hand and always have been. Wherever Europeans went discovering new (to them) parts of the world, the banana was there before them. It's of immense benefit to billions of people. Really first-class science. I'm not knocking GE, it's an immensely promising field, it's a huge pity (?) that its development is in the hands of these wisdomless dumbos who've given us so much else to be less than thankful for. A frequent question on the list (but recently, regarding newspapers) is ethanol production from cellulose, a technology that it seems just isn't there yet, despite all sorts of promising start-ups and so on. More info here: Ethanol resources on the Web - see Ethanol from cellulose: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html It seems the perfect case for a GE organism. Well, it was tried. Do a message archive search for message #2887 at the list website to see the results - Alcohol-producing GM bacteria could destroy all life on earth, 22 Feb 2001. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messages Wisdomless dumbos isn't an exaggeration. The precautionary principle is sacrosanct, but it's been widely ignored, and instead of the fruits of GE's great promise we seem to be getting instead a whole new and worse kind of pollution. If only it were being used for real benefit in such fields as biofuels. Or to make something as useful as a banana. By the way, RAFI and the Dag Hammarskjold Foundation have published a booklet called The ETC Century, on the technological challenges of the 21st Century. It's very good, covers GE, nanotech and more - pdf here
RE: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil
Here, here Bob, I've been thinking about this for a while now ( I like the idea of algae farms ). Can you, perhaps refer me to more information. You know, which are the best to use, conditions of growing etc.. Mike -Original Message- From: bob golding [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 1:27 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil If you look at the yields from oil bearing algae compared to soybean or rape, that is the best area to throw the technology at rather than improving current crop yields,and pushing bio-diesel further into the clutches of M--s--t- and Ca-g--l and the like Oil,grain,soybeans, it's all the same to them. The beauty of bio-diesel as I see it is that it doesn't need large corporations to make it work. It can be produced locally and sold locally. Economies of scale is usually a euphemism for larger profits for the few. It doesn't have to be that way with boid. With petro diesel you can't just go out and drill for it. You have to invest billions in exploration, so the oil companies keep telling us when asked to justify their 3 million pounds a hour or whatever. This may be true ,but their motivation is profit for their shareholders, not can I take less from the enviroment This does not strike me as a sustainable system. If you don't think this is true just ask anyone in Southern Nigeria or Columbia. cheers bob golding - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil Joseph Martelle wrote: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html Vegetable oil yields tables: Journey to Forever What about that Jerusalem artichoke I've read about? Fairly high yielding? Not even on the table - loads of carbohydrates (not starch), but not a lot of oil. Good for ethanol though. What we need is for those genetic engineers to to start looking at soybean, rapeseed, peanut, or other oil producing plant and modifying the genome to produce more oil than fruit.Can you imagine doubling or tripling the oil yeild from rapeseed or soybeans? Has anyone even considered research in this area? Dunno, maybe. But most of it so far seems tied either to securing a market sector or to securing sales of associated products (eg herbicides). One looks hard for success stories. RR (Roundup-Ready) herbicide-resistant soybeans are losing their resistance (leading to increased use of herbicides, up to 30% more than with non-GE soy, instead of the decreased use we were promised) as well as their yields - yields are sagging badly. One doesn't have to look too hard for outright failures (Starlink), and for side-effects we were promised and assured were impossible but they're now happening anyway. And of course the whole technology as it applies to food has lost its consumer acceptance - I don't think it's the technology itself people don't trust, it's the companies doing it. These folks don't have a good record with this kind of stuff, nor with anything else much. So I'm sure what you suggest is possible (what isn't these days?) but would it work out right? And with what unforeseen costs? Anyway, if you look through the amazing history of crop development over the last four millenia or so, you end up very impressed with the capabilities of traditional plant breeding through selection. It works, it's safe, and the benefits are widespread and permanent. Modern plant-breeding has produced nothing to equal the banana, said a modern plant-breeder. The banana is a man-made hybrid, produced a couple of thousand years ago, by all accounts. It can't reproduce itself, all bananas are propagated by hand and always have been. Wherever Europeans went discovering new (to them) parts of the world, the banana was there before them. It's of immense benefit to billions of people. Really first-class science. I'm not knocking GE, it's an immensely promising field, it's a huge pity (?) that its development is in the hands of these wisdomless dumbos who've given us so much else to be less than thankful for. A frequent question on the list (but recently, regarding newspapers) is ethanol production from cellulose, a technology that it seems just isn't there yet, despite all sorts of promising start-ups and so on. More info here: Ethanol resources on the Web - see Ethanol from cellulose: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html It seems the perfect case for a GE organism. Well, it was tried. Do a message archive search for message #2887 at the list website to see the results - Alcohol-producing GM bacteria could destroy all life on earth, 22 Feb 2001. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messages Wisdomless dumbos isn't an exaggeration. The precautionary principle is sacrosanct, but it's been widely ignored, and instead of the fruits
