Re: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy
Hello John You surprise me - I won't argue, but I've never before seen degrees used with Brix measures, only percentages. I've been using a refractometer for about 25 years, I've seen a lot of different documents on refractometers and Brix measures, and this was the first time I've seen degrees used. The visual scale in my refractometer and in others I've used is marked in percentages, not degrees. The manufacturers and suppliers I know of use percentages, not degrees: http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_list.asp?cls=5119par=5116,5 118cat=14sch=318sku=sel= Cole-Parmer: Product List http://www.atago.net/product/hand/hand1.html#1 Atago Co., Ltd. We use Brix measures as an indicator of crop quality, but the references I have on ethanol production also use percentages, though Mike Nixon's The Compleat Distiller comes close: There are many possible scales for measuring the density (and hence, the sugar content) of a solution. The most common include: Specific Gravity and degrees Plato, Brix or Ballings. The specific gravity of a solution is the ratio of its density to that of pure water. A specific gravity of 1.050, for example is 5 % denser than pure water. The Plato, Brix and Ballings scales all relate the density of the solution to the % sucrose by weight. But I'll take your work for it John. Best Keith Keith Addison wrote: Also, I really don't know what to make of your sales brochure, which claims such high levels of expertise yet talks of 20 deg. Brix and 32-35 deg. Brix and so on. Brix levels are percentages, not degrees. I have nothing to contribute on the thread as a whole, but I just wanted to point out that degrees Brix *is* the correct terminology, at least in food science and in wine making. Keith, you are still correct in that degrees Brix is simply a measure of the percent sugar. Nonetheless, the somewhat archaic nomenclature remains, with degrees Brix being the proper usage. Cheers John Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy
Keith Addison wrote: Also, I really don't know what to make of your sales brochure, which claims such high levels of expertise yet talks of 20 deg. Brix and 32-35 deg. Brix and so on. Brix levels are percentages, not degrees. I have nothing to contribute on the thread as a whole, but I just wanted to point out that degrees Brix *is* the correct terminology, at least in food science and in wine making. Keith, you are still correct in that degrees Brix is simply a measure of the percent sugar. Nonetheless, the somewhat archaic nomenclature remains, with degrees Brix being the proper usage. Cheers John Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy
Dear Contactos Mundiales, i have seen your mail on direct fermentation of sugarcane juice. could you plaease elaborate on utilization of effluent generated during this process. Here in india the alcohol is generally made from molasses which produce lot of effluent. please give your valuable comments. Yours sincerely H.C.Joshi, professor Environmental Sciences Division Indian Agricultural Research Institute New Delhi-12 India --- Contactos Mundiales [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mr. P.V.Pannrselvam Brazil Dear Mr. Pannrselvam: Thanks ever so much for taking the time to comment our last message. I appreciate the way you have presented your ideas and I take my hat off to your very high qualifications. Your points of view can certainly draw the greatest respect. I wound like to correpond with you more often about our mutual goals and perspectives. To that effect, should you agree, I wish to suggest that we discuss issues, one by one, without rush or haste. I feel that we both could benefit from our mutual experiences. We may have different points of view, but, in the end, we both strive for a happier world. Something needs to be corrected from your message is that: We have never used genetically modified sugar cane plants We have never used genetically modified yeast We do not endorse and have never used or recommended the use of genetically modified seeds, plants or any other organism. Kindly please review our posts and you will not find any reference to GMO. Your comments will honour me again. With warmest regards, Luis R. Calzadilla VP Operations Fundaciòn Sugar Cane Research Org. Cali, Colombia Tel (572) 557-0627 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: pan ruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:13 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy I being dedicated research worker in Brazil with PhD in Biochemical engineering from India about alcohol production from biomass from one of the best research center in Asia in 1980 , carefully following the state of art this technology several decads,feel that the views of the Keith is ecological and Luiz , genetic engineering which are totally totally different.Even though I belonged unfortunately this breed of the higher caste of biotechnology tribes with limited kespealized kwnowelge like Dr luiz , I am fortunate enough to leave away this caste.In india it is not possible to change the caste because they say genetica nad god made , but with the interation of the active yahoo biofuel group (high quality , vey ha limited experts group and making great effort to become an ecological engineering student , rather than to have limited specialist approach like one that of Dr Luiz approach of genetic engineering , transgenics and hybrids .The biotechnology experts in general do not try to see all aspects and understand what is natural ,simple , decentralized ecological system , not even this natural ecological system developments. In Brazil , all high yielding projects of fruits and any crop lead to total collapse of the lands water leading to degradation of lands. The insects devastations of mono crops of the Cotton has lead to billion dollars until now the real reason for the poverty of the people who were rich 10 years ago.Yet no biotechnology experts has introduced new one here. Brazil has high yielding cassava , which can produce twice the alcohol.Yet, not able to make it possible reality , as they used the same method to implement as that of luiz , with enorme waste of money eventhouh this has higher productivity , 2 time that of cane per ha. In India a lot of alcohol made in home scale micro distillery using biomass energy cheaper and village leval pot distillation technolgy , with out any cane at all , using the palm tree can help to make arrack killing people as food can be used as biofuel.No patent is there , not much literature, but every uneducated can make the biofuel. This can be the best technology as the yeast there can ferment everty thing.The best and worst technolgy are very relative , change place to place. Dr luiz really need to rethink again that the problem of food , fuel ,fertilizer, feed and food are inter connected to make the whole thing work in Argo industrial system.Only one canot be the best system to all the people , to all the country for all the the time the best. Biodiversity is less kwnown to many like Dr.Luiz. Any less educated people like native tribal Indians knows very well that imported one; the hybrid, the transgenic, genetically modified are not better than naturally adopted local variety created by nature. There is great debate in Brazil every where
RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy
Hello again Luis snip Something needs to be corrected from your message is that: We have never used genetically modified sugar cane plants We have never used genetically modified yeast We do not endorse and have never used or recommended the use of genetically modified seeds, plants or any other organism. Kindly please review our posts and you will not find any reference to GMO. It doesn't make much difference. GMOs can be a bit of a red herring. Not that the big red danger sign that's attached to them is wrong or misleading, far from it, but it can lead the uninitiated to the simplistic idea that GMOs = bad and therefore no-GMOs = good. But GMOs are just one symptom of an unsustainable and wasteful industrialised agriculture system without which there would either be no GMOs or there would be GMOs of a very different and much more useful and safer type (for which we still hold out hope). As one case in point among too many, there were no GMOs associated with the so-called Green Revolution based on so-called HYV hybrid strains of grain - High-Yielding Varieties, actually High Response Varieties bred for their response to chemical inputs, and eventually for their resistance to the very high levels of pesticides required to grow them at all. The damage to communities, small farmers and the poor, and to the environment wrought by the Green Revolution was and is horrific, despite the superficialities of improved yields and efficiency - your criteria. And in fact the HYVs did not outyield crops of ordinary, traditional varieties grown by good organic methods, without any inputs at all - and without being tied to the need to keep buying the hybrid seeds from the likes of Monsanto, because they didn't breed true. The farmers provided their own seeds from the previous crop, as ever. The real criticism of your ethanol scheme and your GADA sugar system, Luis, doesn't have to do with whether or not you use GMOs, it's of the system itself - see my previous response to you, and P.V. Pannrselvam's response to you - criticisms to which you have not responded. The one-size-fits-all, magic-bullet,best-technology, best-crop, industrialised approach just doesn't work, GMOs or not. (For your convenience I've put my earlier response back, below, as P.V. Pannrselvam had it - no doubt you snipped it to save bandwidth, eh? LOL!) To come back to your yeast, it has this in common with the Green Revolution hybrids: The above described yeast technology are available on a royalty fee basis. Exit, therefore, that much local self-reliance, and therefore your H-S L-E Yeast and Process as Appropriate Technology. Regardless of yield and efficiency, local strains that do not have to be imported from outside and that do not render the community dependent on outside inputs will always be superior. Also, I really don't know what to make of your sales brochure, which claims such high levels of expertise yet talks of 20 deg. Brix and 32-35 deg. Brix and so on. Brix levels are percentages, not degrees. Your comments will honour me again. They didn't exactly honour you the last time. Keith Addison With warmest regards, Luis R. Calzadilla VP Operations Fundacin Sugar Cane Research Org. Cali, Colombia Tel (572) 557-0627 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: pan ruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:13 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy I being dedicated research worker in Brazil with PhD in Biochemical engineering from India about alcohol production from biomass from one of the best research center in Asia in 1980 , carefully following the state of art this technology several decads,feel that the views of the Keith is ecological and Luiz , genetic engineering which are totally totally different.Even though I belonged unfortunately this breed of the higher caste of biotechnology tribes with limited kespealized kwnowelge like Dr luiz , I am fortunate enough to leave away this caste.In india it is not possible to change the caste because they say genetica nad god made , but with the interation of the active yahoo biofuel group (high quality , vey ha limited experts group and making great effort to become an ecological engineering student , rather than to have limited specialist approach like one that of Dr Luiz approach of genetic engineering , transgenics and hybrids .The biotechnology experts in general do not try to see all aspects and understand what is natural ,simple , decentralized ecological system , not even this natural ecological system developments. In Brazil , all high yielding projects of fruits and any crop lead to total collapse of the lands water leading to degradation of lands. The insects devastations of mono crops of the Cotton has lead to billion dollars until now the real reason
RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy
Thank you very much I am very glad to know about the product and process in your web site. I wish your work also here in northeast .Please send your catalag to us P.V.Pannirselvam Terry Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Your email was great. I have spent alot of time traveling to India and talking with people in the Punjab area about the production of alcohol using our distillers. If you would be interested, I would be happy to send you our catalog for you to look at. If you are interested please provide us with a mailing address. Regards, Terry Wilhelm The Revenoor Co. www.revenoor.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy
I being dedicated research worker in Brazil with PhD in Biochemical engineering from India about alcohol production from biomass from one of the best research center in Asia in 1980 , carefully following the state of art this technology several decads,feel that the views of the Keith is ecological and Luiz , genetic engineering which are totally totally different.Even though I belonged unfortunately this breed of the higher caste of biotechnology tribes with limited kespealized kwnowelge like Dr luiz , I am fortunate enough to leave away this caste.In india it is not possible to change the caste because they say genetica nad god made , but with the interation of the active yahoo biofuel group (high quality , vey ha limited experts group and making great effort to become an ecological engineering student , rather than to have limited specialist approach like one that of Dr Luiz approach of genetic engineering , transgenics and hybrids .The biotechnology experts in general do not try to see all aspects and understand what is natural ,simple , decentralized ecological system , not even this natural ecological system developments. In Brazil , all high yielding projects of fruits and any crop lead to total collapse of the lands water leading to degradation of lands. The insects devastations of mono crops of the Cotton has lead to billion dollars until now the real reason for the poverty of the people who were rich 10 years ago.Yet no biotechnology experts has introduced new one here. Brazil has high yielding cassava , which can produce twice the alcohol.Yet, not able to make it possible reality , as they used the same method to implement as that of luiz , with enorme waste of money eventhouh this has higher productivity , 2 time that of cane per ha. In India a lot of alcohol made in home scale micro distillery using biomass energy cheaper and village leval pot distillation technolgy , with out any cane at all , using the palm tree can help to make arrack killing people as food can be used as biofuel.No patent is there , not much literature, but every uneducated can make the biofuel. This can be the best technology as the yeast there can ferment everty thing.The best and worst technolgy are very relative , change place to place. Dr luiz really need to rethink again that the problem of food , fuel ,fertilizer, feed and food are inter connected to make the whole thing work in Argo industrial system.Only one canot be the best system to all the people , to all the country for all the the time the best. Biodiversity is less kwnown to many like Dr.Luiz. Any less educated people like native tribal Indians knows very well that imported one; the hybrid, the transgenic, genetically modified are not better than naturally adopted local variety created by nature. There is great debate in Brazil every where now a days about the way the biotechnology experts groups are trying to have rapid quick technological anda economical developments , in sustainablel for long time where the future generations food and energy cannot be assured , as if matter the present generation. Again , I as an scientific researcher on behave of of the many of the members fully agree with the Keith and wish that our group need to focus the is so com objective and not an attack of personnel views and opinions. with out any base and truth. I am sure that my words represent the views of many members who do not have time not even to read all the important so many biofuel information, imagine how they can reply . Once Again best wishes Keith keep it up the correct critical ecological thinking. Your hard working dedicated work can only be well understood to all the less developed one as you become the part and parcel of it.When this large starving people can made his own food and fuel with out importing fuel using the road map our group make , there can be great green future for all . Sorry for my poor English, as I am way 20 years without the contact with the language . For all the members the best wishes andthe new happy yaer to all our biofuel group. Thanking you Truely P.V.Pannrselvam Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luis R. Calzadilla wrote: Wrong Keith: You are wrong again Keith when you issue the following statement: Wrong again, Keith when you utter: Keith, who told you all the above? Now, in reference to the yeast, you are wrong again, dear Keith: Sorry Keith, but you have failed on all counts. :-) Heard it all before Luis, so many times, seen it all before too. I did expect this sort of response from you, it's fairly obvious that your thinking is locked to the industrialised, centralised, top-down, best-technology approach to both crop and energy production
RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy
Mr. P.V.Pannrselvam Brazil Dear Mr. Pannrselvam: Thanks ever so much for taking the time to comment our last message. I appreciate the way you have presented your ideas and I take my hat off to your very high qualifications. Your points of view can certainly draw the greatest respect. I wound like to correpond with you more often about our mutual goals and perspectives. To that effect, should you agree, I wish to suggest that we discuss issues, one by one, without rush or haste. I feel that we both could benefit from our mutual experiences. We may have different points of view, but, in the end, we both strive for a happier world. Something needs to be corrected from your message is that: We have never used genetically modified sugar cane plants We have never used genetically modified yeast We do not endorse and have never used or recommended the use of genetically modified seeds, plants or any other organism. Kindly please review our posts and you will not find any reference to GMO. Your comments will honour me again. With warmest regards, Luis R. Calzadilla VP Operations Fundacin Sugar Cane Research Org. Cali, Colombia Tel (572) 557-0627 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: pan ruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:13 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy I being dedicated research worker in Brazil with PhD in Biochemical engineering from India about alcohol production from biomass from one of the best research center in Asia in 1980 , carefully following the state of art this technology several decads,feel that the views of the Keith is ecological and Luiz , genetic engineering which are totally totally different.Even though I belonged unfortunately this breed of the higher caste of biotechnology tribes with limited kespealized kwnowelge like Dr luiz , I am fortunate enough to leave away this caste.In india it is not possible to change the caste because they say genetica nad god made , but with the interation of the active yahoo biofuel group (high quality , vey ha limited experts group and making great effort to become an ecological engineering student , rather than to have limited specialist approach like one that of Dr Luiz approach of genetic engineering , transgenics and hybrids .The biotechnology experts in general do not try to see all aspects and understand what is natural ,simple , decentralized ecological system , not even this natural ecological system developments. In Brazil , all high yielding projects of fruits and any crop lead to total collapse of the lands water leading to degradation of lands. The insects devastations of mono crops of the Cotton has lead to billion dollars until now the real reason for the poverty of the people who were rich 10 years ago.Yet no biotechnology experts has introduced new one here. Brazil has high yielding cassava , which can produce twice the alcohol.Yet, not able to make it possible reality , as they used the same method to implement as that of luiz , with enorme waste of money eventhouh this has higher productivity , 2 time that of cane per ha. In India a lot of alcohol made in home scale micro distillery using biomass energy cheaper and village leval pot distillation technolgy , with out any cane at all , using the palm tree can help to make arrack killing people as food can be used as biofuel.No patent is there , not much literature, but every uneducated can make the biofuel. This can be the best technology as the yeast there can ferment everty thing.The best and worst technolgy are very relative , change place to place. Dr luiz really need to rethink again that the problem of food , fuel ,fertilizer, feed and food are inter connected to make the whole thing work in Argo industrial system.Only one canot be the best system to all the people , to all the country for all the the time the best. Biodiversity is less kwnown to many like Dr.Luiz. Any less educated people like native tribal Indians knows very well that imported one; the hybrid, the transgenic, genetically modified are not better than naturally adopted local variety created by nature. There is great debate in Brazil every where now a days about the way the biotechnology experts groups are trying to have rapid quick technological anda economical developments , in sustainablel for long time where the future generations food and energy cannot be assured , as if matter the present generation. Again , I as an scientific researcher on behave of of the many of the members fully agree with the Keith and wish that our group need to focus the is so com objective and not an attack of personnel views and opinions. with out any base and truth. I am sure that my words represent the views of many members who do not have time
RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy
Hello Your email was great. I have spent alot of time traveling to India and talking with people in the Punjab area about the production of alcohol using our distillers. If you would be interested, I would be happy to send you our catalog for you to look at. If you are interested please provide us with a mailing address. Regards, Terry Wilhelm The Revenoor Co. www.revenoor.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
