Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Certainly worth consideration. Thanks for mentioning . Would need analysis and combustion analysis in a diesel to know. Otherwise, sticking to the WVO is a good idea. From: doctor who [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:51:45 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Is trap grease safe to burn in a vehicle engine? WVO is one thing but trap grease is the worst sludge I've ever seen. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Michael - you say you collect large amounts of it from traps - are you just starting into making biodiesel from it or have you made some - sorry if I missed this perhaps in an earlier post? Ed B. www.biofuels.ca From: michael dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:48:54 +0100 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Joseph Martelle wrotethese filters work because water in oil is an emulsion and thus easily separated with marine filters. Is this true? How do you take the oil out of emulsion, I have heard of de-emulsifying agents (chemicals) but they are expensive. Are there different types of emulsions - permanent emulsions, semi emulsions-what is an emulsion anyway? I collect large quantities of this type of waste from grease traps. Even the free floating oil/grease that separates out and is skimmed off carefully contains 20-30%water. (I refer to this as water in oil as opposed to oil in water) I find that the longer I let it sit, the more water will drop out after several weeks) leaving maybe 5-10% water in oil if I`m lucky., maybe it is my imagination but I think that some of the water may even be evaporating off when left to settle in an open top drum.I have thought about dripping the oil in some sort of enclosed environment onto a needle point (or something) that will shatter the droplet or indeed a mist sprayer and use an anhydrous powder to soak up any moisture that evaporates off. This would be cheap and gravity fed-but would it work? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Hi Ed- I haven`t produced any biodiesel but I have done several experiments boiling off the water and filtering etc. and have produced a clear yellowey oil that I am sure is of some value- indeed it will burn away an its own once I get it ignited with a light yellow flame. Anyway, from a feedstock/cost point of view, trap waste has to be a good option- as the restaurant pays you to take it away! With the proper separation the food sludge can be composted, water goes to drain and the fat,oil,grease (FOG) can be recovered, assuming the water in oil can be removed at a reasonable cost. There must be a way of removing this water without high energy(cost) input. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Is trap grease safe to burn in a vehicle engine? WVO is one thing but trap grease is the worst sludge I've ever seen. I've smelled some pretty noxious things in my life but grease traps are up there for me. I mean thinking about it. This device is designed to settle out the grease from all the grey water drains in the restaurant. I dont know if you've ever worked in a restaruant but a variety of things go down the drain and into the trap including cleaning chemicals. For instance chlorine bleach is regularly used in alot of restaurants dishwashing machines as a sterlizing agent that dishwashwer in turn dumps the water down into the grease trap where it mixes with the grease and/or water. Bleach and lye make a lovely gas great for ridding your home of pesky humans. I am by no means a chemistry whiz, I know enough to be dangerous and my knowledge mainly specializes in chemicals mixing of the pyro nature. (special efx, big booms, fireworks, etc.) I do know what not to mix and grease trap remnants take massive amounts of energy to produce anything worthwhile. Not that I'm discouraging anyone, but I would be carefull what is pulled out of traps, wierd things go down the drains in restaurants, I hate to see some one get hurt because of residual chems. in trap grease. I've never done an analysis of trap grease, but if someone else has some experience with this I woud love to hear it. cheers, cordain dulles,va From: Ed Beggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:08:23 -0700 Pacific mentions their grease processor that was designed with help from U Idaho folks, but I don't know any more about it - it would be nice to use the stuff; we have not gotten that far yet. Would like to though. Anybody else using trap grease with success? BTW, saw mention somewhere of use of skimmed wastewater grease in Europe. Ed B. From: michael dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:16:22 +0100 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Hi Ed- I haven`t produced any biodiesel but I have done several experiments boiling off the water and filtering etc. and have produced a clear yellowey oil that I am sure is of some value- indeed it will burn away an its own once I get it ignited with a light yellow flame. Anyway, from a feedstock/cost point of view, trap waste has to be a good option- as the restaurant pays you to take it away! With the proper separation the food sludge can be composted, water goes to drain and the fat,oil,grease (FOG) can be recovered, assuming the water in oil can be removed at a reasonable cost. There must be a way of removing this water without high energy(cost) input. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Pacific mentions their grease processor that was designed with help from U Idaho folks, but I don't know any more about it - it would be nice to use the stuff; we have not gotten that far yet. Would like to though. Anybody else using trap grease with success? BTW, saw mention somewhere of use of skimmed wastewater grease in Europe. Ed B. From: michael dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:16:22 +0100 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Hi Ed- I haven`t produced any biodiesel but I have done several experiments boiling off the water and filtering etc. and have produced a clear yellowey oil that I am sure is of some value- indeed it will burn away an its own once I get it ignited with a light yellow flame. Anyway, from a feedstock/cost point of view, trap waste has to be a good option- as the restaurant pays you to take it away! With the proper separation the food sludge can be composted, water goes to drain and the fat,oil,grease (FOG) can be recovered, assuming the water in oil can be removed at a reasonable cost. There must be a way of removing this water without high energy(cost) input. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Joseph Martelle wrotethese filters work because water in oil is an emulsion and thus easily separated with marine filters. Is this true? How do you take the oil out of emulsion, I have heard of de-emulsifying agents (chemicals) but they are expensive. Are there different types of emulsions - permanent emulsions, semi emulsions-what is an emulsion anyway? I collect large quantities of this type of waste from grease traps. Even the free floating oil/grease that separates out and is skimmed off carefully contains 20-30%water. (I refer to this as water in oil as opposed to oil in water) I find that the longer I let it sit, the more water will drop out after several weeks) leaving maybe 5-10% water in oil if I`m lucky., maybe it is my imagination but I think that some of the water may even be evaporating off when left to settle in an open top drum.I have thought about dripping the oil in some sort of enclosed environment onto a needle point (or something) that will shatter the droplet or indeed a mist sprayer and use an anhydrous powder to soak up any moisture that evaporates off. This would be cheap and gravity fed-but would it work? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
**Reply below** From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Cordian, Good thinking on the marine filters. However, these filters work becuase water in oil is an emulsion and thus easily separated with this kind of apparatus. Water and alcohol is a solution and cannot be separated with a physical process such as this. Like salt in water (a solution) you can't remove the salt from the water with a filter. Distillation of an adsorber such as Zeolite is the only way to do this. As for filtering WVO, it would get most of the water out of the oil, but there is always a little left in suspension even in seemingly clear oil. These filters would be good for getting the large food chunks out of the WVO, but I'm afraid they would plug up fairly quickly depending on how clean the oil is of course. What kind of oil pump are you using to pump the WVO from your source? Joe _ Joe, I'm aiming for a mass-production facility so I am going to need a rig that can collect alot of oil in a single run. I've come up with several designs for collection and prefiltering. One of the designs actually incorporates a device made for the express purpose of filtering out food particles. Click here and scroll down to oil filter product-- http://www.tisbee.com/broasted.html This one for portaility, provides suction and pumping.(PDF)-- http://www.gilesent.com/Gpdfs/Giles_GOC_Oil_Caddy.pdf These machines are designed for high-temp still hot oil and the hoses will not melt. There are variations on design, but you get the idea. My other options are to get some high temp. rubber hose and run the pump off a PTO on the truck. Problem being I will need to hook up a priming spray of veggie oil to keep the pump from running dry. Their are hundreds of pumps out there that will pump mud and small rocks through w/out blinking, so finding the right pump is really a matter of preference. My biggest sticklers are vacuum pressure and flow rate. I'm also thinking of a vacuum setup like used for liposuction, WVO is somewhat similar in viscosity and that setup is very effective. I should be building my rig within the next year or so. We'll see what over-complicated design I come up with. cheers, c. __ I'm reposting this question because I do not believe it was answered last time I posted or perhaps I missed the reply. But their are marine fuel filters that are designed to filter the fuel and remove the water from it as well. Their is a serperate resevoir on the bottom of the filter that holds the water and periodically must be dumped. I am fully aware of their operation and intended use, however has anyone used them to filter oil or ethanol to remove the water? The filters I have in mind are of the large marine diesel variety and I am in the process of designing a recovery and pre-filter WVO (waste vegetable oil) trailer and am wondering if this filter would be effective for my purposes. Any insight is appreciated. regards, cordain dulles,va _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
I think this is an excellent area of experimentation -- thinking back, I can recall very simple filters that effectively removed water. Most cars used to have a glass bowl on the bottom of the fuel pump, where water (and dirt) was collected. It was only a copper or brass screen that did this, and more recently I've seen simple brass screen filters on funnels used to fill chainsaws that were designed to trap water, and did so. However, that was with gasoline, and gasoiline doesn't absorb water the way alcohol does, so I'm not sure how well it would work with ethanol. I'd better it would work better with biodiesel -- not sure what Keith was refering to --- was that theoretical Keith, or were attempts actually made? Keith Addison wrote: Hi Cordain We've dealt with filtering water out of WVO before, and the consensus was that it wouldn't work. Not sure if dehydrating ethanol by filtering has come up. But the kind of filters you're talking of weren't discussed. If nobody else knows the answer, I very much hope it's you who'll be providing it! Are you in a position to experiment with these filters? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ I'm reposting this question because I do not believe it was answered last time I posted or perhaps I missed the reply. But their are marine fuel filters that are designed to filter the fuel and remove the water from it as well. Their is a serperate resevoir on the bottom of the filter that holds the water and periodically must be dumped. I am fully aware of their operation and intended use, however has anyone used them to filter oil or ethanol to remove the water? The filters I have in mind are of the large marine diesel variety and I am in the process of designing a recovery and pre-filter WVO (waste vegetable oil) trailer and am wondering if this filter would be effective for my purposes. Any insight is appreciated. regards, cordain dulles,va Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Maybe it's a difference in cultures other than my own(no offence to anyone) and my sense of humor was a little short that day. Maybe there are more diesel folks out there than there are ethanolers. I'm just trying to find the most economical wat to make and dry ethanol. There is enough brain power on this web for us to find the info to accomplish what we need to know. My lack of education prevents me from carrying on a scientific conversation and it's very frustrating not to find the information I need to do what I want to do. Ahh, I feel better now. Thanks, Ron - Original Message - From: Mike Brownstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 2:23 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Well, I think that the ethanol people would be the moonshine makers, whereas the Biodiesel people would obviously be the more highly cultivated? Really, though, now that we know that ethanol is available why are we bothering with methanol? I find myself learning with methanol and then having to switch to ethanol for environmental advantage. Mike B -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 6:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Keith, Do the biodiesel people just not want the ethanol people online. Things seem to get rude at times. I am just trying to increase my knowledge base and find a way to make my own fuel as cheap as is possible. Thanks, Ron Miller Hi Ron Sorry, I don't understand - what's rude? I think we all share your aims, or should. There's no division that I know of between biodiesel and ethanol people - I see it as the same subject. If there were a division I'd be very perturbed. Please explain? Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. Pint of beer in a PET bottle should do it. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe Would it separate at all? Boiling doesn't work that way, does freezing? Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. No doubt, RGC. Nonetheless, Snipping For The Rest Of Us is an idea whose time has come. I hope. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. Pint of beer in a PET bottle should do it. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe Would it separate at all? Boiling doesn't work that way, does freezing? Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. No doubt, RGC. Nonetheless, Snipping For The Rest Of Us is an idea whose time has come. I hope. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
I'm reposting this question because I do not believe it was answered last time I posted or perhaps I missed the reply. But their are marine fuel filters that are designed to filter the fuel and remove the water from it as well. Their is a serperate resevoir on the bottom of the filter that holds the water and periodically must be dumped. I am fully aware of their operation and intended use, however has anyone used them to filter oil or ethanol to remove the water? The filters I have in mind are of the large marine diesel variety and I am in the process of designing a recovery and pre-filter WVO (waste vegetable oil) trailer and am wondering if this filter would be effective for my purposes. Any insight is appreciated. regards, cordain dulles,va From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:33:43 +0900 You'd have to have an awful lot of ethanol to keep it from freezing. Strong beer (5-7%) freezes pretty easily. People used to distill their hard cider by putting a barrel out to freeze. Any fermented solution you can you can freeze fairly quickly -- the % of ethanol will never be above 16% at max, and you need at least 50% alky to anti-freeze a solution. Depends on how cold it gets, I guess, but zero should pretty well do it for any wine or beer. It'd be about 190-proof, plenty of ethanol. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
If we were to put a loop in a tank full of wet ethanol .Circulate refrigerant thru the loop. Voila! Water would freeze and you have a 'popsicle' of ice and dry Ethanol. Gerry Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 06/05/2001 10:19:28 PM Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: LEE Gerry/Prin Engr/CSM/ST Group) Subject: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Keith, Do the biodiesel people just not want the ethanol people online. Things seem to get rude at times. I am just trying to increase my knowledge base and find a way to make my own fuel as cheap as is possible. Thanks, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. Pint of beer in a PET bottle should do it. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe Would it separate at all? Boiling doesn't work that way, does freezing? Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. No doubt, RGC. Nonetheless, Snipping For The Rest Of Us is an idea whose time has come. I hope. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
we have made maple syrup using this method. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: Dick Carlstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 9:49 AM Subject: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
You'd have to have an awful lot of ethanol to keep it from freezing. Strong beer (5-7%) freezes pretty easily. People used to distill their hard cider by putting a barrel out to freeze. Any fermented solution you can you can freeze fairly quickly -- the % of ethanol will never be above 16% at max, and you need at least 50% alky to anti-freeze a solution. Depends on how cold it gets, I guess, but zero should pretty well do it for any wine or beer. The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Harmon Seaver wrote: You'd have to have an awful lot of ethanol to keep it from freezing. Strong beer (5-7%) freezes pretty easily. People used to distill their hard cider by putting a barrel out to freeze. Any fermented solution you can you can freeze fairly quickly -- the % of ethanol will never be above 16% at max, and you need at least 50% alky to anti-freeze a solution. Depends on how cold it gets, I guess, but zero should pretty well do it for any wine or beer. I got the idea from thinking about ice wine and hard cider that's made in the Okanagan Valley where I used to live. The fermentation process for fuel ethanol or biodiesel ethanol is no different than that for beer or wine, and since the yeast die off well before the alcohol percentage reaches the high 'teens, I thought that such an approach would create a more favorable energy balance for ethanol fuel production in cold climates. It would be an interesting thing to try. Perhaps someone might experiment with this approach and post the results. Further, it would eliminate the problems associated with licensing a distillation apparatus. (No, officer, it's NOT a still, it's a refrigerator. . .) If it works, I wonder how the energy balance of refrigeration would compare to conventional distillation. robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Keith, Do the biodiesel people just not want the ethanol people online. Things seem to get rude at times. I am just trying to increase my knowledge base and find a way to make my own fuel as cheap as is possible. Thanks, Ron Miller Hi Ron Sorry, I don't understand - what's rude? I think we all share your aims, or should. There's no division that I know of between biodiesel and ethanol people - I see it as the same subject. If there were a division I'd be very perturbed. Please explain? Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. Pint of beer in a PET bottle should do it. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe Would it separate at all? Boiling doesn't work that way, does freezing? Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. No doubt, RGC. Nonetheless, Snipping For The Rest Of Us is an idea whose time has come. I hope. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
You'd have to have an awful lot of ethanol to keep it from freezing. Strong beer (5-7%) freezes pretty easily. People used to distill their hard cider by putting a barrel out to freeze. Any fermented solution you can you can freeze fairly quickly -- the % of ethanol will never be above 16% at max, and you need at least 50% alky to anti-freeze a solution. Depends on how cold it gets, I guess, but zero should pretty well do it for any wine or beer. It'd be about 190-proof, plenty of ethanol. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Hi Robert Harmon Seaver wrote: You'd have to have an awful lot of ethanol to keep it from freezing. Strong beer (5-7%) freezes pretty easily. People used to distill their hard cider by putting a barrel out to freeze. Any fermented solution you can you can freeze fairly quickly -- the % of ethanol will never be above 16% at max, and you need at least 50% alky to anti-freeze a solution. Depends on how cold it gets, I guess, but zero should pretty well do it for any wine or beer. I got the idea from thinking about ice wine and hard cider that's made in the Okanagan Valley where I used to live. The fermentation process for fuel ethanol or biodiesel ethanol is no different than that for beer or wine, and since the yeast die off well before the alcohol percentage reaches the high 'teens, I thought that such an approach would create a more favorable energy balance for ethanol fuel production in cold climates. It would be an interesting thing to try. Perhaps someone might experiment with this approach and post the results. Further, it would eliminate the problems associated with licensing a distillation apparatus. (No, officer, it's NOT a still, it's a refrigerator. . .) If it works, I wonder how the energy balance of refrigeration would compare to conventional distillation. Okay, that makes sense. I didn't twig you wanted to freeze the mash (beer, whatever - the ferment) rather than the distillate. Sorry. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Hi Cordain We've dealt with filtering water out of WVO before, and the consensus was that it wouldn't work. Not sure if dehydrating ethanol by filtering has come up. But the kind of filters you're talking of weren't discussed. If nobody else knows the answer, I very much hope it's you who'll be providing it! Are you in a position to experiment with these filters? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ I'm reposting this question because I do not believe it was answered last time I posted or perhaps I missed the reply. But their are marine fuel filters that are designed to filter the fuel and remove the water from it as well. Their is a serperate resevoir on the bottom of the filter that holds the water and periodically must be dumped. I am fully aware of their operation and intended use, however has anyone used them to filter oil or ethanol to remove the water? The filters I have in mind are of the large marine diesel variety and I am in the process of designing a recovery and pre-filter WVO (waste vegetable oil) trailer and am wondering if this filter would be effective for my purposes. Any insight is appreciated. regards, cordain dulles,va Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489
Well, I think that the ethanol people would be the moonshine makers, whereas the Biodiesel people would obviously be the more highly cultivated? Really, though, now that we know that ethanol is available why are we bothering with methanol? I find myself learning with methanol and then having to switch to ethanol for environmental advantage. Mike B -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 6:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 Keith, Do the biodiesel people just not want the ethanol people online. Things seem to get rude at times. I am just trying to increase my knowledge base and find a way to make my own fuel as cheap as is possible. Thanks, Ron Miller Hi Ron Sorry, I don't understand - what's rude? I think we all share your aims, or should. There's no division that I know of between biodiesel and ethanol people - I see it as the same subject. If there were a division I'd be very perturbed. Please explain? Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite - Digest Number 489 From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: zeolite I don't mean to be flip about this, but why don't the ethanol enthusiasts, or those using ethanol for biodiesel, simply leave their brew outdoors during a winter night? In the morning, remove the ice floating on top, and the winter temperatures will have done the distilling for free! Anyone tried this? *brilliant lateral thinking, rabello !! i see no reason why it shouldn't work. will try it in my freezer soon as i can get my hand on some hydroalky, don't have freezing weather these parts of the globe. Pint of beer in a PET bottle should do it. *it's good, solid, practical ideas like these that put 'meat' in this list... *keep them coming, cheers, dick. The ethanol acts as an antifreeze keeping the water from freezing. Also the spec. gravity of water is greater than EtOH, it would sink not float. Joe Would it separate at all? Boiling doesn't work that way, does freezing? Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ snipping is a consummate art, reserved only for those with exquisite taste, and impeccable manners R.G.C. No doubt, RGC. Nonetheless, Snipping For The Rest Of Us is an idea whose time has come. I hope. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
