Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
- Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act? : Hello Doug : : I guess you win the prize! Only there isn't a prize, sorry about that. :-( : : >Keith, Not a problem, story of my life :) I did win a holiday turkey from a local merchant once though. : I'm really glad you know that Doug. I was wondering if Peggy did. I : doubt it, or she'd have blind-eyed it or something, in her usual : inimitable style. I couldn't understand what she was on about - was : she saying Bhopal's claims against Dow are frivolous? :-/ I only mentioned frivolous in reference to the "frivolous" lawsuits filed routinely by corporations as a standard business practice, that rarely get pointed out. : : Time to put the real McDonald's hot coffee story in the archives, do : you think? I think so (below). That has to be up to you, as long it remains available elsewhere on the net why use your server space? Anyway sometimes many don't want to know the facts and readily dismiss them when they don't support their point of view. Doug, N0LKK : ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
financial compensation for >all of her pain and suffering) was $100,000 exactly how likely is that >to make mcdonalds change their practices such that more don't suffer? if >that was your local coffee joint it would probably put them out of >business but mcdonalds has 4.4 billion in sales. > Plus, these corporations will shift the burden of such litigation on to either their customers or their employees. To make the fines really stick they need be somehow taken out of the stock value. Get the stock holders pissed off and the company will change (hopefully for the better). Though I think the corporate death penalty is more likely to occur before a stock fine. -dave ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
Hi To All, I guess I sort of misread this thread and got excited about the idea that a corporation could face the death penelty, and not just the officers. When you think about it, if a corporation has the rights of a person such as the protections offered by the bill of rights, then why not have the death penalty, (we as persons face), extend to corporations too. The corporation could face dissolution and termination of it's imortal status. Then we would find out if the death penalty is really a deterant Corporations are not human. There's a lot of very good material on corporations and corporateering in the archives. But I think this is essential reading - how to kill a mammoth, from Roberto Verzola, secretary-general of the Philippine Greens: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30617/ So is this: http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous5.html#creed Feel No Remorse -- The Corporate Creed Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
the meaning of punitive damages. the idea is to punish the corporation in the only language it understands (money) so the value of the award was more based on the value of mcdonalds than it was about the value of the victims injury. once you realize that it makes a whole lot more sense. assume for a moment that the value of the injury (calculated as the cost of all of the medical bills plus the financial compensation for all of her pain and suffering) was $100,000 exactly how likely is that to make mcdonalds change their practices such that more don't suffer? if that was your local coffee joint it would probably put them out of business but mcdonalds has 4.4 billion in sales. John Doug Younker wrote: Keith, After I read the details of that case, the case actually illustrates why we should not embrace tort reform. There was no reasonable expectation the coffee would have causes burns to the degree that it did. The industry knew that where serving coffee at temperature that could injure seriously and done nothing, to reduce the risk or warn of the risk. Even now the warning now, is severely lacking because it doesn't accurately define the risk. While the jury award was extreme, it was not the real award because most if not all States have limits in place. But GWB and friends don't want you to know that. I have many tell me my thought on this are crap. ...I have yet to have one to accept my challenge that they attempt to drink coffee at the temperature that coffee was being served at, that time and prove me wrong. Doug - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act? : Hello Peggy : : You mean like that infamous case of the woman who sued McDonald's for : a fortune because her coffee was too hot? : : Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
settle for $225,000. McDonald's refused all attempts to settle the case. The Findings The jury found that Ms. Liebeck suffered $200,000 in compensatory damages for her medical costs and disability. The award was reduced to $160,000 since the jury determined that 20 percent of the fault for the injury belonged with Ms. Liebeck for spilling the coffee. Based on its finding that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious or wanton conduct, the jury then awarded $2.7 million in punitive damages; essential to the size of the award was the fact that at the time McDonald's made $1.35 million in coffee sales daily. Since the purposes of awarding punitive damages are to punish the person or company doing the wrongful act and to discourage him and others from similar conduct in the future, the degree of punishment or deterrence resulting from a judgment is in proportion to the wealth of the guilty person. Punitive damages are supposed to be large enough to send a message to the wrongdoer; limited punitive awards when applied to wealthy corporations, means the signal they are designed to send will not be heard. The trial court refused to grant McDonald's a retrial, finding that its behavior was "callous." The judge, however, announced in open court a few days after the trial that he would reduce the punitive damages award to $480,000. Both sides appealed the decision. Before the appeals could be heard the parties reached an out-of-court agreement for an undisclosed amount of money. As part of this settlement, McDonald's demanded that no one could release the details of the case. Based on the facts, Corporate America's and much of the media's trivial portrayal of the case is deceptive and disgraceful. They have painted a misleading picture of a "legal horror story" when in fact, the case demonstrates a legal system that punishes corporations for misconduct and protects consumers who may be victims of their wrongdoing. 11/30/99NOTES (The nature of the private settlement and lack of public court documents resulted in the use of primarily newspaper sources.) - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act? : Hello Peggy : : You mean like that infamous case of the woman who sued McDonald's for : a fortune because her coffee was too hot? : : Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
Hi To All, I guess I sort of misread this thread and got excited about the idea that a corporation could face the death penelty, and not just the officers. When you think about it, if a corporation has the rights of a person such as the protections offered by the bill of rights, then why not have the death penalty, (we as persons face), extend to corporations too. The corporation could face dissolution and termination of it's imortal status. Then we would find out if the death penalty is really a deterant.___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
Bob, I think that Bush is more than dumb, for more than 30 years the asbestos have been forbidden in several European countries. It is around 40 years ago that it was proven links between asbestos and lung cancer. It is hard to find a more clear cut case and it only proves the ignorance and disrespect for life that Bush have. Hakan At 04:00 PM 2/3/2005, you wrote: Bush mentioned lawsuits last nite, singly out asbestos claims as frivolous. I doubt the people of Libby Montana think its frivolous. http://www.scn.org/~bh162/asbestos_libby.html Doug Younker wrote: Attorneys for corporations routinely use the courts in an attempt to get another to pay their obligations, in doing so they can be as fraudulent as those in the persons in the examples you cited. The chances are very slim that tort reform that could curtail you and I will not apply to the frivolous lawsuits corporations file. As flawed as it is the courts are only resource against corporations that in the USA enjoy privileges of a person and are insulated from any consequences when they break the law or act in an unresponsible manner. As a personal aside I will always wonder if I was a moron for not pressing a lawsuit against the doctors under who's care I was under became permanently disabled. I really don't have an answer, but I don't believe tort reform is it. Doug -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
frivolous. I doubt the people of Libby Montana think its frivolous. http://www.scn.org/~bh162/asbestos_libby.html Doug Younker wrote: Attorneys for corporations routinely use the courts in an attempt to get another to pay their obligations, in doing so they can be as fraudulent as those in the persons in the examples you cited. The chances are very slim that tort reform that could curtail you and I will not apply to the frivolous lawsuits corporations file. As flawed as it is the courts are only resource against corporations that in the USA enjoy privileges of a person and are insulated from any consequences when they break the law or act in an unresponsible manner. As a personal aside I will always wonder if I was a moron for not pressing a lawsuit against the doctors under who's care I was under became permanently disabled. I really don't have an answer, but I don't believe tort reform is it. Doug -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
Keith, After I read the details of that case, the case actually illustrates why we should not embrace tort reform. There was no reasonable expectation the coffee would have causes burns to the degree that it did. The industry knew that where serving coffee at temperature that could injure seriously and done nothing, to reduce the risk or warn of the risk. Even now the warning now, is severely lacking because it doesn't accurately define the risk. While the jury award was extreme, it was not the real award because most if not all States have limits in place. But GWB and friends don't want you to know that. I have many tell me my thought on this are crap. ...I have yet to have one to accept my challenge that they attempt to drink coffee at the temperature that coffee was being served at, that time and prove me wrong. Doug - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 7:39 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act? : Hello Peggy : : You mean like that infamous case of the woman who sued McDonald's for : a fortune because her coffee was too hot? : : Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
Attorneys for corporations routinely use the courts in an attempt to get another to pay their obligations, in doing so they can be as fraudulent as those in the persons in the examples you cited. The chances are very slim that tort reform that could curtail you and I will not apply to the frivolous lawsuits corporations file. As flawed as it is the courts are only resource against corporations that in the USA enjoy privileges of a person and are insulated from any consequences when they break the law or act in an unresponsible manner. As a personal aside I will always wonder if I was a moron for not pressing a lawsuit against the doctors under who's care I was under became permanently disabled. I really don't have an answer, but I don't believe tort reform is it. Doug - Original Message - From: "Peggy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:23 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act? For another side of how our litigious society is negatively impacting our ability to offer goods and services I feel compelled comment on a few recent events that affect me directly. Our small rural office hired a part-time employee who fell down a stair case the year before in her school and injured her wrist. Then she stressed her wrist several times and complained at work by painting her entire room and ceiling in one day, working on her car (changing the oil, etc.) Then one day she picked up a partially-filled bottle of water (less than 12 pounds) and sued us for worker's compensation. Even though every employee on the staff wrote letters verifying the false complaint, the insurance company paid the bill. They said it was less money than would be spent if she hired one of the greedy advertising attorneys that are on every phonebook cover and regularly run television ads. After one year (this week) we received notice that she is now doing fine and completely restored to health. The cost was only $30,000 for the compensation and medical expenses. This weekend I had to attend an update and review of jurisprudence as a part of an attempt to slow down the petty actions of greedy people who look for any reason to shift responsibility to another person. At this time our state is now the number one state in the US for litigious action--lawsuits against most anything--people, services, etc. Whoever believes that huge settlements are necessary so as not to deprive ordinary folk of reasonable settlements need a very good explanation of "severe harm" is making it tough on everyone. The price of goods and services reflects all the payouts that have supported ordinary folks grand settlements. And I am not referring to death or maimed bodies. I'm talking about inconveniences. One person actually told me that the going settlement for blaming a dental practitioner for not "saving a tooth" was about $100,000 and this was fifteen years ago. Thankfully, our records documented poor bone, smoking, cancellation of appointments, failing recall maintenance and more. But technically, she wanted to be compensated for her personal neglect and the sad thing is that she thought she was entitled to compensation because she paid for services on the tooth. I also think I may have earlier mentioned that we were sued for 1.3 million dollars (we are simple middle-class people) when our son's car tagged the fender of another car--the only damage being a scrape on the fender. Because a passenger inside the car was pregnant, she sued for the amount saying that she became so terrified by fear that she could be hurt that she could no longer have ordinary sex with her husband. Ha! At least this case was thrown out by the judge. However, the legal paperwork took our insurance company's attorney over three inches high of paper in documentation and cost the company thousands of dollars. Well, we need tort reform. The only way to restore our country to reasonably supporting employees and reducing production costs will be to reduce the ability of any dissatisfied person to hire the evil attorneys that suck the system. It is well known that most brag that they never have to go to court because they can screw the money people (insurance companies or business owners) without doing so. At this time part of the American disease includes a cure for tort action. One solution would be that if a fair trial included the ability of the person being sued to be compensated for the same amount of money for which the person suing requested if the court found that the lawsuit was frivolous, it would greatly reduce risk takers from jeopardizing their own liability/ responsibility. Thanks for listening and understanding an individual approach that applies to my everyday life. And being true to one's self includes evaluating ones life in terms of what we actually encounter. Best wishes, Peggy Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act? by Karyn Strickler George W. Bush recent
Re: [Biofuel] Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act?
You mean like that infamous case of the woman who sued McDonald's for a fortune because her coffee was too hot? Keith For another side of how our litigious society is negatively impacting our ability to offer goods and services I feel compelled comment on a few recent events that affect me directly. Our small rural office hired a part-time employee who fell down a stair case the year before in her school and injured her wrist. Then she stressed her wrist several times and complained at work by painting her entire room and ceiling in one day, working on her car (changing the oil, etc.) Then one day she picked up a partially-filled bottle of water (less than 12 pounds) and sued us for worker's compensation. Even though every employee on the staff wrote letters verifying the false complaint, the insurance company paid the bill. They said it was less money than would be spent if she hired one of the greedy advertising attorneys that are on every phonebook cover and regularly run television ads. After one year (this week) we received notice that she is now doing fine and completely restored to health. The cost was only $30,000 for the compensation and medical expenses. This weekend I had to attend an update and review of jurisprudence as a part of an attempt to slow down the petty actions of greedy people who look for any reason to shift responsibility to another person. At this time our state is now the number one state in the US for litigious action--lawsuits against most anything--people, services, etc. Whoever believes that huge settlements are necessary so as not to deprive ordinary folk of reasonable settlements need a very good explanation of "severe harm" is making it tough on everyone. The price of goods and services reflects all the payouts that have supported ordinary folks grand settlements. And I am not referring to death or maimed bodies. I'm talking about inconveniences. One person actually told me that the going settlement for blaming a dental practitioner for not "saving a tooth" was about $100,000 and this was fifteen years ago. Thankfully, our records documented poor bone, smoking, cancellation of appointments, failing recall maintenance and more. But technically, she wanted to be compensated for her personal neglect and the sad thing is that she thought she was entitled to compensation because she paid for services on the tooth. I also think I may have earlier mentioned that we were sued for 1.3 million dollars (we are simple middle-class people) when our son's car tagged the fender of another car--the only damage being a scrape on the fender. Because a passenger inside the car was pregnant, she sued for the amount saying that she became so terrified by fear that she could be hurt that she could no longer have ordinary sex with her husband. Ha! At least this case was thrown out by the judge. However, the legal paperwork took our insurance company's attorney over three inches high of paper in documentation and cost the company thousands of dollars. Well, we need tort reform. The only way to restore our country to reasonably supporting employees and reducing production costs will be to reduce the ability of any dissatisfied person to hire the evil attorneys that suck the system. It is well known that most brag that they never have to go to court because they can screw the money people (insurance companies or business owners) without doing so. At this time part of the American disease includes a cure for tort action. One solution would be that if a fair trial included the ability of the person being sued to be compensated for the same amount of money for which the person suing requested if the court found that the lawsuit was frivolous, it would greatly reduce risk takers from jeopardizing their own liability/ responsibility. Thanks for listening and understanding an individual approach that applies to my everyday life. And being true to one's self includes evaluating ones life in terms of what we actually encounter. Best wishes, Peggy Is It Time For A Corporate Death Penalty Act? by Karyn Strickler George W. Bush recently announced that he was going to end asbestos damage lawsuits; limit medical malpractice suits; and ban class action lawsuits of all sorts. It's part of his high priority, tort reform plan. Instead of Bush's proposed tort reform -- depriving ordinary folk of reasonable settlements in cases of severe harm and making the rule of law meaningless -- Timothy G. Hermach, President of the Native Forest Council (www.forestcouncil.org), proposes a Corporate Death Penalty Act. Regardless of your position on the death penalty, when an individual murders someone, they know that they may face the death penalty. While it is badly administered, the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent. Juan Alvarez, the man who recently abandoned his car on the train tracks in Glendale, California, injuring hundreds and causing the death of 11 people in a tra
