Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Keith Addison]

ion. The NBB privately acknowledges this, commenting that the
>>  grassroots can be useful in helping to spread the marketing message,
>>  but should be disparaged nonetheless because they make poor-quality
>>  fuel. :-) (See "Homebrew quality"
>>  <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#qual1>, "Homebrew
>>  vs commercial production"
>>  <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#commrcl>.)
>>
>>  The NBB's marketing efforts focused on fleets, where again B20
>>  brought the best benefits, and it was an easy hit anyway because the
>>  fleets could earn tax brownie points by using "green" fuel, and some
>>  of them were mandated to do so (eg the US military, which complains
>>  about the poor quality of the BD they buy).
>>
>>  The NBB didn't even do anything to encourage the farmers who were
>>  growing the soy to switch to biodiesel for their tractors and
>>  combines.
>>
>>  So, it turned out to be rather less of a boom than it might have
>>  been. There certainly was and is still a biodiesel boom at the
>>  small-scale and local level, but not with the corporate stuff. And,
>>  as a result, there's a US soy biodiesel surplus, as there'd been a
>>  soy oil surplus before it. So they dump it on other markets.
>>
>>  Where's the WTO when you really need them? LOL!
>>
>>  I have occasional contact with the NBB, it's cordial, I don't have
>>  any reason to fight with them. I've had a few chuckles though, like
>>  when they asked me (a grassroot) to rally round the cause and write
>>  to my Congressman/Senator in defence of the soy subsidy. :-)
>>
>>  Anyway, Denise, I think it's quite safe to say that most biodiesel in
>>  the US is soy biodiesel, certainly if we're talking about quantities
>>  of biodiesel produced, and quantities sold commercially. It almost
>>  certainly applies as well to the total amount of biodiesel actually
>>  used, including the unknown factor of how much is made and used by
>>  the "grassroots", since most of the WVO they use is also soy oil.
>>
>>  Sorry to hear about your BD plant. Isn't that the way they do things,
>>  though, the big agribiz interests? Always pushing production, ever
>>  more production, until there's overproduction, and a surplus, and a
>>  slump, and then when things get a little better they do it all over
>>  again. Commercial biodiesel production growth in the US between, say,
>>  2000 and 2008 was rather spectacular, but market development wasn't
>>  as rapid. I don't think production reached the high EU levels, and EU
>>  production seems less prone to surpluses and bursting bubbles, or at
>>  least that's the impression I get.
>>
>>  I'm not sure where you might find a list of currently operating
>>  biodiesel plants in the US, maybe the commercial biofuel magazines
>>  might have such a thing (the ones for "decision-makers and
>>  stakeholders"), but I don't know, I don't read them. Also perhaps
>>  some of the market reports produced by consultancies might help, but
>>  they can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars.
>>
>>  Best
>>
>>  Keith
>>
>>
>>  >- Original Message -
>>  >From: "denise farley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>  >To: 
>>  >Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 11:34 PM
>>  >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
>>  >
>>  >>  Keith,
>>  >>  Just out of sheer curiosity, where does the information that "Most
>>  >>  biodiesel
>>  >>  in the US is soy biodiesel" come from?
>>  >>
>>  >>  I was wondering too, since I cannot find the information even on the
>>  NBB
>>  >>  (unless I am blind which is never outside the realm of possibility),
>>  where
>>  >  > might be a good source to look for a list of currently operating
>>  biodiesel
>>  >>  plant?  Ours closed and is in bankruptcy and of the other two in the
>>  local
>  > >>  area, only one is operating.  We couldn't compete even switching to
>>  animal
>>  >>  fats - and all those inherent processing problems.  Of course, the one
>>  >>  operating is big-bucks AGP and, yes, uses soy.
>>  >>
>  > >>  Hmmm.  D'ya think I might have sort of answered my own question here?
>>  >>  Although I will say there is a soybean processing coop south of here
>>  that
>>  >&

Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Zeke Yewdall]

since most of the WVO they use is also soy oil.
>
> Sorry to hear about your BD plant. Isn't that the way they do things,
> though, the big agribiz interests? Always pushing production, ever
> more production, until there's overproduction, and a surplus, and a
> slump, and then when things get a little better they do it all over
> again. Commercial biodiesel production growth in the US between, say,
> 2000 and 2008 was rather spectacular, but market development wasn't
> as rapid. I don't think production reached the high EU levels, and EU
> production seems less prone to surpluses and bursting bubbles, or at
> least that's the impression I get.
>
> I'm not sure where you might find a list of currently operating
> biodiesel plants in the US, maybe the commercial biofuel magazines
> might have such a thing (the ones for "decision-makers and
> stakeholders"), but I don't know, I don't read them. Also perhaps
> some of the market reports produced by consultancies might help, but
> they can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "denise farley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 11:34 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
> >
> >>  Keith,
> >>  Just out of sheer curiosity, where does the information that "Most
> >>  biodiesel
> >>  in the US is soy biodiesel" come from?
> >>
> >>  I was wondering too, since I cannot find the information even on the
> NBB
> >>  (unless I am blind which is never outside the realm of possibility),
> where
> >  > might be a good source to look for a list of currently operating
> biodiesel
> >>  plant?  Ours closed and is in bankruptcy and of the other two in the
> local
> >>  area, only one is operating.  We couldn't compete even switching to
> animal
> >>  fats - and all those inherent processing problems.  Of course, the one
> >>  operating is big-bucks AGP and, yes, uses soy.
> >>
> >>  Hmmm.  D'ya think I might have sort of answered my own question here?
> >>  Although I will say there is a soybean processing coop south of here
> that
> >>  ceased production of biodiesel in their facility for at least 6 months
> >>  last
> >>  I heard.  They sold their soybean oil to AGP during that period.  Sigh.
> >>
> >>  Thanks so much!
> >>  Denise
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Keith Addison
> >>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>  Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high
> >>>  pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll
> >>>  polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard
> >>>  upper limit. (See "Iodine Values"
> >>>  <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine>, "National
> >>>  standards for biodiesel
> >>>  <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds>.) The
> >>>  biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial
> >>>  about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of
> >>>  US Big Soy.
> >>>
> >>>  Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy
> >>>  biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked
> >>>  the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what
> >>>  sounded like GMO-style "substantial equivalence" of America's soy and
> >>>  Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to
> >>>  iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV
> >>>  and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of
> >>>  Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little
> >>>  anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most
> >>>  biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk
> >>>  of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less.
> >>>
> >>>  They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than
> >>>  ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing,
> >>>  high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for
> >>>  soy's shortcomings.
> >>>
> >>>  Best
> >>>
> >  >> Keith
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Keith Addison]

Hi Jan and Denise

>hello Denise, I think that US BD is more or synonomous with soy biodiesel
>although it may be a myth.

It seems to be correct. The biodiesel the US is dumping on Europe is 
soy biodiesel.

>US is the biggest soy producer in the world and
>that is not a myth.

Not a myth. It's a major agribusiness monster, much like US corn 
(maize). They're evil monsters, pretty much, industrialised GMO 
monocrops, heavily chemicalised (more so than non-GMOs), dependent on 
fossil-fuel inputs at every stage, the usual catastrophe. Both crops 
are heavily subsidised. Soy oil is essentially a by-product, the main 
product is the press-cake, which is used as livestock feed in factory 
farms (as is most US corn). A previous list discussion, maybe 10 
years ago, was about the massive soy oil surplus in the US, which was 
stored in "the world's biggest tank-farm", IIRC. Of course, with the 
manipulated magic of the "free" market, it wasn't any cheaper for 
consumers to buy soy cooking oil in a supermarket, the unbreakable 
laws of supply and demand notwithstanding.

The US also produces other oils, such as canola (Canadian oilseed 
rape), sunflower, and others, but none of them comes close to Big Soy.

The biodiesel boom was an opportunity to soak up all that surplus soy 
oil, and maybe even make a profit out of it, especially since it 
meant extra tax breaks and so on for being "green". (The use of B20 
has a lot to do with that.) So Big Soy set up the NBB to push 
biodiesel.

But they're not very good at it - another long-ago discussion, 
several times I think, was on how very much better backyarder brewers 
are than the NBB at spreading the biodiesel message. What the NBB 
refers to as "the grassroots" have quite often generated front-page 
stories in newspapers, for instance, while the NBB seldom gets 
further than a truncated press-release downpage in the business 
section. The NBB privately acknowledges this, commenting that the 
grassroots can be useful in helping to spread the marketing message, 
but should be disparaged nonetheless because they make poor-quality 
fuel. :-) (See "Homebrew quality" 
<http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#qual1>, "Homebrew 
vs commercial production" 
<http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#commrcl>.)

The NBB's marketing efforts focused on fleets, where again B20 
brought the best benefits, and it was an easy hit anyway because the 
fleets could earn tax brownie points by using "green" fuel, and some 
of them were mandated to do so (eg the US military, which complains 
about the poor quality of the BD they buy).

The NBB didn't even do anything to encourage the farmers who were 
growing the soy to switch to biodiesel for their tractors and 
combines.

So, it turned out to be rather less of a boom than it might have 
been. There certainly was and is still a biodiesel boom at the 
small-scale and local level, but not with the corporate stuff. And, 
as a result, there's a US soy biodiesel surplus, as there'd been a 
soy oil surplus before it. So they dump it on other markets.

Where's the WTO when you really need them? LOL!

I have occasional contact with the NBB, it's cordial, I don't have 
any reason to fight with them. I've had a few chuckles though, like 
when they asked me (a grassroot) to rally round the cause and write 
to my Congressman/Senator in defence of the soy subsidy. :-)

Anyway, Denise, I think it's quite safe to say that most biodiesel in 
the US is soy biodiesel, certainly if we're talking about quantities 
of biodiesel produced, and quantities sold commercially. It almost 
certainly applies as well to the total amount of biodiesel actually 
used, including the unknown factor of how much is made and used by 
the "grassroots", since most of the WVO they use is also soy oil.

Sorry to hear about your BD plant. Isn't that the way they do things, 
though, the big agribiz interests? Always pushing production, ever 
more production, until there's overproduction, and a surplus, and a 
slump, and then when things get a little better they do it all over 
again. Commercial biodiesel production growth in the US between, say, 
2000 and 2008 was rather spectacular, but market development wasn't 
as rapid. I don't think production reached the high EU levels, and EU 
production seems less prone to surpluses and bursting bubbles, or at 
least that's the impression I get.

I'm not sure where you might find a list of currently operating 
biodiesel plants in the US, maybe the commercial biofuel magazines 
might have such a thing (the ones for "decision-makers and 
stakeholders"), but I don't know, I don't read them. Also perhaps 
some of the market reports produced by consultancies might help, but 
they can cost hundred

Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Jan Warnqvist]

hello Denise, I think that US BD is more or synonomous with soy biodiesel 
although it may be a myth. US is the biggest soy producer in the world and 
that is not a myth.
- Original Message - 
From: "denise farley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz


> Keith,
> Just out of sheer curiosity, where does the information that "Most 
> biodiesel
> in the US is soy biodiesel" come from?
>
> I was wondering too, since I cannot find the information even on the NBB
> (unless I am blind which is never outside the realm of possibility), where
> might be a good source to look for a list of currently operating biodiesel
> plant?  Ours closed and is in bankruptcy and of the other two in the local
> area, only one is operating.  We couldn't compete even switching to animal
> fats - and all those inherent processing problems.  Of course, the one
> operating is big-bucks AGP and, yes, uses soy.
>
> Hmmm.  D'ya think I might have sort of answered my own question here?
> Although I will say there is a soybean processing coop south of here that
> ceased production of biodiesel in their facility for at least 6 months 
> last
> I heard.  They sold their soybean oil to AGP during that period.  Sigh.
>
> Thanks so much!
> Denise
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Keith Addison
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>>
>> Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high
>> pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll
>> polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard
>> upper limit. (See "Iodine Values"
>> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine>, "National
>> standards for biodiesel
>> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds>.) The
>> biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial
>> about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of
>> US Big Soy.
>>
>> Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy
>> biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked
>> the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what
>> sounded like GMO-style "substantial equivalence" of America's soy and
>> Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to
>> iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV
>> and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of
>> Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little
>> anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most
>> biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk
>> of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less.
>>
>> They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than
>> ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing,
>> high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for
>> soy's shortcomings.
>>
>> Best
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
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Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[denise farley]

Keith,
Just out of sheer curiosity, where does the information that "Most biodiesel
in the US is soy biodiesel" come from?

I was wondering too, since I cannot find the information even on the NBB
(unless I am blind which is never outside the realm of possibility), where
might be a good source to look for a list of currently operating biodiesel
plant?  Ours closed and is in bankruptcy and of the other two in the local
area, only one is operating.  We couldn't compete even switching to animal
fats - and all those inherent processing problems.  Of course, the one
operating is big-bucks AGP and, yes, uses soy.

Hmmm.  D'ya think I might have sort of answered my own question here?
 Although I will say there is a soybean processing coop south of here that
ceased production of biodiesel in their facility for at least 6 months last
I heard.  They sold their soybean oil to AGP during that period.  Sigh.

Thanks so much!
Denise


On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Keith Addison
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
> Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high
> pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll
> polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard
> upper limit. (See "Iodine Values"
> , "National
> standards for biodiesel
> .) The
> biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial
> about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of
> US Big Soy.
>
> Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy
> biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked
> the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what
> sounded like GMO-style "substantial equivalence" of America's soy and
> Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to
> iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV
> and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of
> Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little
> anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most
> biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk
> of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less.
>
> They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than
> ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing,
> high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for
> soy's shortcomings.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
> ___
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Keith Addison]

>Hello Keith, Zeke and all. If polymerisation is the issue should it be
>related to the oxidation stability of the BD. It should therefore be
>important to use anti-oxidants in order to improve the stability. The
>connection is higher pressure -> higher temperatures -> quicker
>polymerisation.

Thankyou Jan.

>And the higher the iodine number the lower stability. Sorry
>about that, ASTM.

:-)

Best

Keith


>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz
>
>
>>  Hi Zeke, Jan and all
>>
>>>Haven't really heard either way.  I have heard lots of rumors about quite
>>>a
>>>few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to
>>>polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those
>>>engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of
>>>any
>>>of them right now.
>>
>>  Maybe they're just rumours, but I think DI diesels might indeed have
>>  problems with polymerised biodiesel in the US. But is it because of
>>  the high pressures? Can high pressure cause oxidation? I don't know,
>>  but it's only from US sources that I ever hear that.
>>
>>  Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high
>>  pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll
>>  polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard
>>  upper limit. (See "Iodine Values"
>>  <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine>, "National
>>  standards for biodiesel
>>  <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds>.) The
>>  biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial
>>  about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of
>>  US Big Soy.
>>
>>  Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy
>>  biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked
>>  the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what
>>  sounded like GMO-style "substantial equivalence" of America's soy and
>>  Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to
>>  iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV
>>  and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of
>>  Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little
>>  anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most
>>  biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk
>>  of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less.
>>
>>  They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than
>>  ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing,
>>  high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for
>>  soy's shortcomings.
>>
>>  Best
>>
>>  Keith
>>
>>
>>>And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what
>>>iodine numbers they were running.
>>>
>>>Z
>>>
>>>On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist <
>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe
>>>>   problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ?
>>>>
>  >>  > Jan W


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Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Keith, Zeke and all. If polymerisation is the issue should it be 
related to the oxidation stability of the BD. It should therefore be 
important to use anti-oxidants in order to improve the stability. The 
connection is higher pressure -> higher temperatures -> quicker 
polymerisation. And the higher the iodine number the lower stability. Sorry 
about that, ASTM.
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz


> Hi Zeke, Jan and all
>
>>Haven't really heard either way.  I have heard lots of rumors about quite 
>>a
>>few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to
>>polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those
>>engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of 
>>any
>>of them right now.
>
> Maybe they're just rumours, but I think DI diesels might indeed have
> problems with polymerised biodiesel in the US. But is it because of
> the high pressures? Can high pressure cause oxidation? I don't know,
> but it's only from US sources that I ever hear that.
>
> Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high
> pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll
> polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard
> upper limit. (See "Iodine Values"
> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine>, "National
> standards for biodiesel
> <http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds>.) The
> biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial
> about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of
> US Big Soy.
>
> Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy
> biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked
> the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what
> sounded like GMO-style "substantial equivalence" of America's soy and
> Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to
> iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV
> and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of
> Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little
> anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most
> biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk
> of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less.
>
> They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than
> ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing,
> high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for
> soy's shortcomings.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>>And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what
>>iodine numbers they were running.
>>
>>Z
>>
>>On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist <
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe
>>>  problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ?
>>>
>>  > Jan W
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Keith Addison]

Hi Zeke, Jan and all

>Haven't really heard either way.  I have heard lots of rumors about quite a
>few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to
>polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those
>engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of any
>of them right now.

Maybe they're just rumours, but I think DI diesels might indeed have 
problems with polymerised biodiesel in the US. But is it because of 
the high pressures? Can high pressure cause oxidation? I don't know, 
but it's only from US sources that I ever hear that.

Most biodiesel in the US is soy biodiesel, which doesn't need high 
pressure to oxidise and polymerise, it's a semi-drying oil, it'll 
polymerise anyway. The IV is well above the EU biodiesel standard 
upper limit. (See "Iodine Values" 
, "National 
standards for biodiesel
.) The 
biodiesel industry in the US seems to be more are less in denial 
about this, but then the US National Biodiesel Board is a creature of 
US Big Soy.

Hm, I must check how the US-EU row over the US dumping cheap soy 
biodiesel on the EU market is progressing. IIRC last time I looked 
the US was accusing the EU of protectionism, on the basis of what 
sounded like GMO-style "substantial equivalence" of America's soy and 
Europe's rapeseed oil, though they're not equivalent when it comes to 
iodine values and polymerisation. Rapeseed oil has a much lower IV 
and is much less likely to polymerise. Nonetheless, a lot of 
Europeans use anti-oxidant with their biodiesel, while very little 
anti-oxidant is used in the US, by contrast. Also, in the US most 
biodiesel is the NBB's commercial B20, a low blend with a lower risk 
of polymerisation, so they have to care about it that much less.

They're never going to accept that soy could be anything less than 
ideal. I get the impression that, even if there is such a thing, 
high-pressure polymerisation could be just a convenient scapegoat for 
soy's shortcomings.

Best

Keith


>And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what
>iodine numbers they were running.
>
>Z
>
>On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist <
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>  Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe
>>  problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ?
>>
>  > Jan W


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Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Jan Warnqvist]

I had a colleague whose MB 320 CDI suddenly broke down due to suspected 
injection pump scar. When you ask MB owners about this they all say:
Neverthis cannot happen with a Mercedes- Benz! As a MB owner myself I am 
very curious about other´s experiences concerning this..
- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz


> Haven't really heard either way.  I have heard lots of rumors about quite 
> a
> few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to
> polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those
> engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of 
> any
> of them right now.  And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what
> iodine numbers they were running.
>
> Z
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe
>> problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ?
>>
>> Jan W
>> -- next part --
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>> messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Merceds-Benz

[Zeke Yewdall]

Haven't really heard either way.  I have heard lots of rumors about quite a
few of the common rail diesel's having problems with biodiesel, due to
polymerization of the biodiesel at extremely high pressures that those
engines have, but I cannot remember any details or specific examples of any
of them right now.  And I don't recall what sort of biodiesel and what
iodine numbers they were running.

Z

On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Jan Warnqvist <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all. Did anybody experience or heard of anybody experiencing severe
> problems with MB CDI engines in connection with biodiesel ?
>
> Jan W
> -- next part --
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