Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 10:45 AM, James Slayden wrote: > What are the usual titrations on your oil blend? Also, > what is your batch success? I think that eth processing > is very interesting to many people and this info would be > appreciated. My last batch titrated at 1.8 ml using 0.1% NaOH soln, and that's the worst I had in a while. Usually it's around 0.7 ml. which works great. I got a drum of corn oil from a tortilla chip factory which titrates around 3 ml, and is also quite polymerized. I onlt use a bit in each batch, just so I can get thru it EVENTUALLY, but I guess I used too much. It separated, but only after the kicker was added. Success rate is 100% for a year now. In fact, I only had one batch ever that I couldn't get to separate, and I think that was due to inadequate drying of BOTH the oil and some recovered ethanol. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
What are the usual titrations on your oil blend? Also, what is your batch success? I think that eth processing is very interesting to many people and this info would be appreciated. Thanks, James Slayden On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Ken Provost wrote: > > On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 10:02 AM, James Slayden wrote: > > > I noticed the 5:1 eth:meth ratio both on JTF and in your postings. > > Since > > your doing the "kicker" of meth after the initial reaction, might it > > just > > be better to up the meth in meth/eth oxide mix, to something like > > 3:1? How much meth are you adding in the kicker phase to the whole > > reaction? Also, are you using WVO or crude oil. I thought I remember > > a > > posting just recently that you had various drums of oil in your garage, > > and something about salad . ;-) > > I believe the kicker functions differently than if the same amount of > total methanol were included from the beginning. The first phase > with ethanol and methanol allows the equilibrium to go as far as it can > without glycerine separation, and allows the ethanol time to react > which seems slower than the methanol reaction. The kicker is > specifically intended to initiate separation, which pulls the > equilibrium > the rest of the way. Amounts are detailed in my write-up. > > I haven't rigorously investigated this, because it's rather difficult. > One > would have to find just the right combination of the right ingredients > such that you could get separation using the kicker approach, but not > if you put in all the methanol up front. In other words, there are many > more examples where the result is negative than there are where it's > positive. In the absence of proof, I just adopt the method that seems > sensible and leave the rigor to others :-) > > My oil is a mix of WVO and flush oil, selecting from sesame, olive, and > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 10:02 AM, James Slayden wrote: > I noticed the 5:1 eth:meth ratio both on JTF and in your postings. > Since > your doing the "kicker" of meth after the initial reaction, might it > just > be better to up the meth in meth/eth oxide mix, to something like > 3:1? How much meth are you adding in the kicker phase to the whole > reaction? Also, are you using WVO or crude oil. I thought I remember > a > posting just recently that you had various drums of oil in your garage, > and something about salad . ;-) I believe the kicker functions differently than if the same amount of total methanol were included from the beginning. The first phase with ethanol and methanol allows the equilibrium to go as far as it can without glycerine separation, and allows the ethanol time to react which seems slower than the methanol reaction. The kicker is specifically intended to initiate separation, which pulls the equilibrium the rest of the way. Amounts are detailed in my write-up. I haven't rigorously investigated this, because it's rather difficult. One would have to find just the right combination of the right ingredients such that you could get separation using the kicker approach, but not if you put in all the methanol up front. In other words, there are many more examples where the result is negative than there are where it's positive. In the absence of proof, I just adopt the method that seems sensible and leave the rigor to others :-) My oil is a mix of WVO and flush oil, selecting from sesame, olive, and coconut as dictated by the weather conditions. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
Ken, I noticed the 5:1 eth:meth ratio both on JTF and in your postings. Since your doing the "kicker" of meth after the initial reaction, might it just be better to up the meth in meth/eth oxide mix, to something like 3:1? How much meth are you adding in the kicker phase to the whole reaction? Also, are you using WVO or crude oil. I thought I remember a posting just recently that you had various drums of oil in your garage, and something about salad . ;-) James Slayden On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Ken Provost wrote: > Matt writes: > > >I have just tried to make a 1 litre batch of biodiesel using > >ethanol (200 proof IDAA denatured ) using the instructions > >on Journey to forever. I titrated the oil to 3.7g and used the > >recommended 7 g/l as a start point before titration. > > > Check those instructions again, Matt. Your oil is awfully high in > FFAs -- half your level is about the max I would ever attempt > with ethanol. Also, I'd strongly advise using KOH at 10g/l plus > titr. rather than NaOH at 7, especially for oil with over 1ml > titr. > > > > >I did ask myself why would you use 7 grams, when 3.5 is normal > >and the alcohol should make no real difference. > > > Methanol is more acidic (in alkaline conditions) than ethanol by > quite a bit. More concentrated alkali is required with ethanol in > order to "persuade" the ethanol to give up its H+ ion and form > an ethoxide ion. > > > >Anyway the predicatable happened, with 10.7 grams of Naoh and > >300 ml of ethanol I now have 1 litre of jelly. > > > Yup. Use cleaner oil and KOH. Check the instructions again. Try my > eth/meth mixture idea, as well as the "methanol kicker" after a couple > hours. I have pretty good luck these days starting with 5:1 eth:meth > and tossing in straight methoxide to initiate separation after the > initial partial reaction. It won't let you get away from methanol > entirely, but you use a lot less. -K > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > HGTV Dream Home Giveaway > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Biodiesel
Matt writes: >I have just tried to make a 1 litre batch of biodiesel using >ethanol (200 proof IDAA denatured ) using the instructions >on Journey to forever. I titrated the oil to 3.7g and used the >recommended 7 g/l as a start point before titration. Check those instructions again, Matt. Your oil is awfully high in FFAs -- half your level is about the max I would ever attempt with ethanol. Also, I'd strongly advise using KOH at 10g/l plus titr. rather than NaOH at 7, especially for oil with over 1ml titr. > >I did ask myself why would you use 7 grams, when 3.5 is normal >and the alcohol should make no real difference. Methanol is more acidic (in alkaline conditions) than ethanol by quite a bit. More concentrated alkali is required with ethanol in order to "persuade" the ethanol to give up its H+ ion and form an ethoxide ion. >Anyway the predicatable happened, with 10.7 grams of Naoh and >300 ml of ethanol I now have 1 litre of jelly. Yup. Use cleaner oil and KOH. Check the instructions again. Try my eth/meth mixture idea, as well as the "methanol kicker" after a couple hours. I have pretty good luck these days starting with 5:1 eth:meth and tossing in straight methoxide to initiate separation after the initial partial reaction. It won't let you get away from methanol entirely, but you use a lot less. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
