Re: [biofuel] Killer on tap
Thankyou Walt! Thanks too for pointing out the downside of chlorination. ITo go back to what Hakan was saying about the Netherlands, of all the cities I've lived in (many!) Amsterdam is the only one I can think of where I didn't regularly get a strong whiff of chlorine off the tap water. You're absolutely right about the destruction of the beneficial microorganisms in the gut and disease (and medication!). Some people go so far as to say that all disease starts this way, or at least manages to gain a foothold because of this factor, an essential precondition. Others take it even further, saying that immunity is a product of a healthy soil, and disease of a sick soil. I don't argue with any of this, there's a basis of truth to it, and indeed the soil has often been compared with an inside-out intestine, same principles at work, very often the same microorganisms too. Sick soil, sick people, sick water, it's all closely related. You might find this an interesting read: 11. The Retreat of the Crop and the Animal before the Parasite Humus and Disease Resistance The Mycorrhizal Association and Disease The Investigations of Tomorrow http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/AT11.html 12. Soil Fertility and National Health http://journeytoforever.org/ farm_library/howardAT/AT12.html -- An Agricultural Testament by Sir Albert Howard, Oxford University Press, 1940. I agree about the yoghurt too - some people will call that quackery, but it's firmly established that the flora in live yoghurt will suppress and destroy gut pathogens, and indeed recolonise the gut. Not many doctors prescribe it though, do they? Funny that... (not!). If my options were (1) drinking from a polluted river or (2) drinking water containing active chlorine, I'd choose Door Number Two. That would keep me well long enough to build a cistern so that I could collect rain water and drink that instead. They're not the best choices, but a couple of billion people only have choice #1 on offer. Door Number Two at least gives them a chance, some space to work with where more and better solutions can be implemented. Damn... every time I think of this (quite often) I get totally furious about the Iraq sanctions and the half-million children who died there because of this. :-( It's bad enough already - shameful enough in this day and age - without deliberately CAUSING it!!! An atrocity to rival Bhopal? I think so. Anyway, thanks once again for the good info. Best wishes Keith At 11:57 PM 11/27/03 +0900, you wrote: But I was wondering about the electrolysis part of this process. Salt, water and electricity produces, what, hydrogen and chlorine - what happens to the sodium? NaCl electrolyses into Na and Cl The Na reacts with water to form H2 and NaOH, which in turn reacts with the Cl to produce sodium hypochlorite, better known as chlorine bleach. What the chemistry described in the article is doing is making bleach, not free chlorine. And to the hydrogen? It off-gasses. It's really this simple? If so there really is application for it, this is a serious problem, as you know, it affects billions of people and kills lots of them, especially the children. Most everyone I know uses chlorine bleach to sanitize. We use a dilute solution in our dining hall for a sterilizing rise in our dish washing room. None of this is to say that the fellow hasn't worked out an ingenious method for delivering minute quantities of chemically active chlorine into the water supply, which in certain cases may be very good. In other cases, it might not in that any chlorine not consumed in the water will be active in the digestive tract of a someone who drinks that water. Humans have a very active set of critters living in their digestive tracts, and anything that kills them off can put the person at risk. For example, most of the deaths by salmonella come after someone has taken oral antibiotics that killed off their resident (benevolent) bacteria. People consume malevolent bacteria all the time, but because beneficial bacteria are already in residence, the bad bugs can't get a foothold. It's when the good bugs are gone, and the bad bugs can get established that people get sick and die. Bacteria are able to determine when they're out numbered, and when they're in the majority. It's only when they reach a critical mass that they start producing the toxins which kill people. I make my living providing coinage services at living history events, so I spend all day handling money. In order to protect myself, I consume substantial quantities of live culture yogurt. I used to get a stomach flu after most every event, but since I started dosing myself with yogurt, I've never had another bought. The point of all this is to stress the reality that we're talking about dynamic, interactive processes, and that every change you make triggers other
Re: [biofuel] Killer on tap
Keith, Maybe you heard what they say in Netherlands. They have very clean water to start with, because before it arrives to Netherlands it passed at least 5 Germans. Kidneys are maybe the most efficient Turbokiller. LOL Hakan At 09:30 27/11/2003, you wrote: Does this make sense? Seems to be missing something, not sure quite what. Or can it not only purify your water but produce hydrogen for your fuel cell? - Keith http://us.oneworld.net/external/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rnw.nl%2Fsciencehttp://us.oneworld.net/external/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rnw.nl%2Fscience %2Fhtml%2F031124tap.html Killer on tap by Thijs Westerbeek, 24 November 2003 Worldwide, good, clean drinking water is a rarity. While tapwater in the Netherlands is of such good quality that most of it doesn't even need to be chlorinated - the Dutch are extraordinarily proud of it - in the developing world it's wise not to drink tapwater at all. Now a Dutch invention called the Turbokiller can provide germ-free drinking water without complicated technology and without an unpleasant taste. Modern technology for disinfecting drinking water is so refined it leaves no discernable chemical taste; even though there is indeed chlorine in the water the level can be monitored so precisely that a tiny amount is enough to keep the water free of bacteria at all times. Unfortunately, this requires a lot of expensive high-tech equipment which is out of the reach of developing countries. In any case, most tapwater is not even used for drinking, so to chlorinate all of it is not necessary. Swimming pool precedent This is where the Turbokiller comes in. It is, quite simply, a self-disinfecting tap. Inventor Jan Tholen, from the town of Bussum in the Netherlands, got his inspiration from the systems used for chlorinating swimming pools. Modern public swimming pools don't keep large stocks of poisonous and dangerous chlorine on hand; they produce what they need from salt. What is basically normal kitchen salt can be converted into chlorine through a well-known process called electrolysis. This report was featured in Research File. Listen to the programme in full. (29:30) The basic principle for this is very simple. If you run an electric current through a salt solution, the salt will turn into chlorine. In public swimming pool systems, this happens on a large scale, with a lot of machinery and electricity required. Dr Tholen's challenge was to achieve electrolysis on a smaller scale. Self-powered The answer lay in the 'turbo' part of his invention. Once he realised that the pressure of the water itself could be used to turn a small turbine, most of the problem was solved. The turbine drives a small generator that produces just enough electricity for on-the-spot electrolysis; the only other thing needed is a reservoir holding salt (a kilogram should last a year of normal operation). Turbokiller: see text right for key So this is what happens exactly: dirty water arrives through the water mains at the tap. There a tiny stream (1) (about one thousandth) is diverted from the main flow, which then receives salt from the reservoir (2) mounted on top of the tap. Meanwhile the powerful main flow drives the turbine (3) which produces electricity. This electricity is passed through the thin pipe with the dissolved salt (4), electrolysis occurs, the salt changes into chlorine and the smaller flow (5) joins the main flow again. The chlorine solution from the smaller pipe instantly thins out by a factor of one thousand, remaining just strong enough to kill harmful bacteria and germs without leaving an unpleasant taste. The amount of chlorine in the water always remains steady; if the tap is opened further, the stronger flow powers the turbine faster, producing more electricity to deal with the quicker side-flow of water which has dissolved more salt. The extra electricity results in stronger electrolysis and produces more chlorine. In short; the Turbokiller is a self-regulating system, no complicated controlling equipment is required. Jan Tholen Dutch applications First and foremost this self-disinfecting tap is ideal for developing countries. No maintenance is required, and all it uses is a bit of kitchen salt from time to time. At the same time the Turbokiller can play a role in the Netherlands; without giving up chlorine-free drinking water, chlorine can be added locally. If, for instance, a Turbokiller system were added on a water mains leading to a hot swimming pool shower, problems with legionella would be a thing of the past. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [biofuel] Killer on tap
Hi Hakan Keith, Maybe you heard what they say in Netherlands. They have very clean water to start with, because before it arrives to Netherlands it passed at least 5 Germans. Kidneys are maybe the most efficient Turbokiller. LOL LOL! Yes, I did hear that in the Netherlands. But I think you're only allowed to say that if you're a Dutchman, not a foreigner, and definitely not a German! Their water management is most impressive, however, including the purifying bit of it. It's more complex than I can remember now, but I spent time walking in the very attractive dunelands where they filter the water. Nice. But I was wondering about the electrolysis part of this process. Salt, water and electricity produces, what, hydrogen and chlorine - what happens to the sodium? And to the hydrogen? It's really this simple? If so there really is application for it, this is a serious problem, as you know, it affects billions of people and kills lots of them, especially the children. regards Keith Hakan At 09:30 27/11/2003, you wrote: Does this make sense? Seems to be missing something, not sure quite what. Or can it not only purify your water but produce hydrogen for your fuel cell? - Keith http://us.oneworld.net/external/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rnw.nl%2Fsci encehttp://us.oneworld.net/external/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rnw.nl%2Fsc ience %2Fhtml%2F031124tap.html Killer on tap by Thijs Westerbeek, 24 November 2003 Worldwide, good, clean drinking water is a rarity. While tapwater in the Netherlands is of such good quality that most of it doesn't even need to be chlorinated - the Dutch are extraordinarily proud of it - in the developing world it's wise not to drink tapwater at all. Now a Dutch invention called the Turbokiller can provide germ-free drinking water without complicated technology and without an unpleasant taste. Modern technology for disinfecting drinking water is so refined it leaves no discernable chemical taste; even though there is indeed chlorine in the water the level can be monitored so precisely that a tiny amount is enough to keep the water free of bacteria at all times. Unfortunately, this requires a lot of expensive high-tech equipment which is out of the reach of developing countries. In any case, most tapwater is not even used for drinking, so to chlorinate all of it is not necessary. Swimming pool precedent This is where the Turbokiller comes in. It is, quite simply, a self-disinfecting tap. Inventor Jan Tholen, from the town of Bussum in the Netherlands, got his inspiration from the systems used for chlorinating swimming pools. Modern public swimming pools don't keep large stocks of poisonous and dangerous chlorine on hand; they produce what they need from salt. What is basically normal kitchen salt can be converted into chlorine through a well-known process called electrolysis. This report was featured in Research File. Listen to the programme in full. (29:30) The basic principle for this is very simple. If you run an electric current through a salt solution, the salt will turn into chlorine. In public swimming pool systems, this happens on a large scale, with a lot of machinery and electricity required. Dr Tholen's challenge was to achieve electrolysis on a smaller scale. Self-powered The answer lay in the 'turbo' part of his invention. Once he realised that the pressure of the water itself could be used to turn a small turbine, most of the problem was solved. The turbine drives a small generator that produces just enough electricity for on-the-spot electrolysis; the only other thing needed is a reservoir holding salt (a kilogram should last a year of normal operation). Turbokiller: see text right for key So this is what happens exactly: dirty water arrives through the water mains at the tap. There a tiny stream (1) (about one thousandth) is diverted from the main flow, which then receives salt from the reservoir (2) mounted on top of the tap. Meanwhile the powerful main flow drives the turbine (3) which produces electricity. This electricity is passed through the thin pipe with the dissolved salt (4), electrolysis occurs, the salt changes into chlorine and the smaller flow (5) joins the main flow again. The chlorine solution from the smaller pipe instantly thins out by a factor of one thousand, remaining just strong enough to kill harmful bacteria and germs without leaving an unpleasant taste. The amount of chlorine in the water always remains steady; if the tap is opened further, the stronger flow powers the turbine faster, producing more electricity to deal with the quicker side-flow of water which has dissolved more salt. The extra electricity results in stronger electrolysis and produces more chlorine. In short; the Turbokiller is a self-regulating system, no complicated controlling equipment is required. Jan Tholen Dutch applications First and foremost this self-disinfecting tap is ideal
Re: [biofuel] Killer on tap
Keith Addison wrote: Does this make sense? Seems to be missing something, not sure quite what. Or can it not only purify your water but produce hydrogen for your fuel cell? - Keith http://us.oneworld.net/external/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rnw.nl%2Fscience %2Fhtml%2F031124tap.html There is an even smaller device marketted to travelers. It produces a chlorine solution from salt in a tiny reservoir about the size of a film can, and this can be used to disinfect up to a liter of water. It uses table salt, and, IIRC, a pair of D cell batteries. I don't have a link for it, unfortunately. AP Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
