Re: [Biofuel] Methoxide mixing question.
you can mix it at the mix pomp, this is the best. or you can use a static mixer before main reactor. Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been thinking over some things in my head, mostly theorizing since I have yet to actually find a source of methanol in my local area that isn't being a pain and continuously asking to see my Hazmat permit... Do I actually need one? I'm only asking for a gallon, or less, of the stuff?Anyway, on to the theorizing. How do you all mix your methoxide into your oil? Pour it in slowly, or let it drip into the oil from a bin?I was wondering if maybe it would mix better if you introduced it at the mixer pump. Oil goes through the pump, and comes out the other side with just a little methoxide added into it. This gets churned into the batch-at-large, and then as it gets worked to the bottom it goes back through the pump again, getting a little more methoxide added, and so on until all of it's added. Just thinking perhaps it's a more direct method of introducing it, maintaining an even distribution and a slow but thorough mix of the chemicals into the oil.Any thoughts?-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hi all, I thought that NaOH and methanol should not be mixed too long before use. Can I mix it 24 hours before I need it ? Or maybe even longer ? If not, why not ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands. (Maasbree, a beautifull little village, to be exact) The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing Paul, For most, simple HDPE gallon jugs or HDPE 5 gallon carboys are sufficient, preferably translucent. Prepare the sodium methoxide 12-24 hours in advance and time will do most of the dissolving for you, with perhaps an occasional bit of agitation. KOH dissolves much more readily (a matter of minutes with mild agitation) than NaOH, but perhaps is not as available for some. Doesn't matter if the process you choose is acid/base or straight base. It serves your interests best if you make sure that adequate mixing takes place. Treat neither any differently from the other. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Paul B.Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biodiesel lisst serve biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing Just wondering what other people are using to mix up the lye and methanol with. Seems that I read alot about putting it in a sealed container to avoid fumes... but then how do you mix it up? Just shake it around or do you need to have some sort of sealed mixed in the carboy??! Does that do enough? The Foolproof method notes that ... It's nasty stuff and it's not easy to mix -- and it must be thoroughly mixed before you use it, with all the lye dissolved and goes on to note that you just give it a series of swirls and then let it sit. Is that enough to thoroughly mix it?! Sounds good to me if so as I was planning on having to mix up several small batches in my blender and then pouring them into a container together, sealing that and then having it gravity fed through a tube into the processor. So,... just pour, shake thoroughly, and drain..?!. Also, does the base vs acid process demand more or less thorough mixing? Any thoughts out there? - Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing
Hi Pieter Hi all, I thought that NaOH and methanol should not be mixed too long before use. Can I mix it 24 hours before I need it ? Or maybe even longer ? Sure you can. See: Methoxide the easy way http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html#easymeth It's good for a week or two, maybe longer. Best Keith If not, why not ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands. (Maasbree, a beautifull little village, to be exact) - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing Paul, For most, simple HDPE gallon jugs or HDPE 5 gallon carboys are sufficient, preferably translucent. Prepare the sodium methoxide 12-24 hours in advance and time will do most of the dissolving for you, with perhaps an occasional bit of agitation. KOH dissolves much more readily (a matter of minutes with mild agitation) than NaOH, but perhaps is not as available for some. Doesn't matter if the process you choose is acid/base or straight base. It serves your interests best if you make sure that adequate mixing takes place. Treat neither any differently from the other. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Paul B.Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biodiesel lisst serve biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing Just wondering what other people are using to mix up the lye and methanol with. Seems that I read alot about putting it in a sealed container to avoid fumes... but then how do you mix it up? Just shake it around or do you need to have some sort of sealed mixed in the carboy??! Does that do enough? The Foolproof method notes that ... It's nasty stuff and it's not easy to mix -- and it must be thoroughly mixed before you use it, with all the lye dissolved and goes on to note that you just give it a series of swirls and then let it sit. Is that enough to thoroughly mix it?! Sounds good to me if so as I was planning on having to mix up several small batches in my blender and then pouring them into a container together, sealing that and then having it gravity fed through a tube into the processor. So,... just pour, shake thoroughly, and drain..?!. Also, does the base vs acid process demand more or less thorough mixing? Any thoughts out there? - Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing
x-charset ISO-8859-1Paul, Not much inventing or making it up as you go needed. The practice of making biodiesel has been on the books for decades. Seems that most of the problems come when people try to reinvent the wheel. Nothing wrong with experimenting, but there are some relatively hard and fast rules to making biodiesel the right way. As for mixing? Mix until the catalyst is visibly dissolved. No need to go further. If you're mixing in a non-transparent container it will be up to you to determine when all the catalyst has dissolved. Pick your own method, but make sure you're right. Any solid catalyst that goes into the oil will immediately get soaped over, isolated from the reaction and in turn increase the odds of an incomplete reaction. As for adding water to the process? That's self defeating. All you'll get is less yield of biodiesel, more soap and probably more headache than you bargained for. About the only time such foolishness has any practical value is if an aqueous solution of catalyst is all that is available and it's your last chance to get your shipwrecked self off a desert island. Cycle time per batch? Acid/base - 4 days if you push the wash stages and apply heat to dry the fuel. Straight base - 2 days if you push the wash stages and apply heat to dry the fuel. Realistically, efficiently and economically? A 55 gallon batch in 4-6 days. That's still adding heat to dry the fuel, either via warm, dehumidified air or directly. Pushing the wash stages will inevitably leave more fuel in the waste water and more contaminants in the micro-droplets of water that never completely settle out between washes. Shouldn't be done unless absolutely necessary, such as in time for a press opportunity, event, etc. Of course, you can always choose to not wash if you really don't care about your engine. That concept tends to stir up a lot of hornets everytime it's brought up. Again, no different than pushing the wash stages, it shouldn't be done unless absolutely necessary, either to catch the last high tide before the volcano blows or to show off and feed your ego at a hastily scheduled press opp. As for quick and effective guestimates as to product quality on a dimestore budget? Frog in a Blender. If the fuel separates immediately and cleanly you've got biodiesel. If not, you've got an incomplete reaction. Viscosity is essentially a non-starter as an indicator of a complete reaction. As for Sunday, it's as super as any other. Don't see the sense of bowling though. Pitiful excuse to ruin a perfectly good hardwood floor. And chips and wings? We don't eat anything with a face on it around here anymore. Todd Swearingen Commie, pinko, socialist at large - Original Message - From: Paul B.Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:28 PM Subject: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing Todd, Thanks for the reply. Always appreciate some insight into the process as it seems we're all on the inside of a new movement and we're sort of making it up as we experiment and learn more. Just very exciting stuff in so many different economic, environmental, political and social ways. How much more, percent wise, do you think you get disolved by waiting past the first mixing? Do you think a thorough mechanical mixing would give a simialr result? Anyway you can tell how much is dissolved besides looking at the mix? Since the lye in the titration is disolved into a distilled water solution, could you dissolve it this way again, in a much stonger solution, and use that or would the added water throw things off to much and just help make more gloppy soap? Also, you note you mix, give it a shake and then wait about 12-24 hours till you use it. As far as the whole idea of waiting goes, there is the mini batch mixing and watchign time, there is also the time needed to wait to let the initial big batch process settle fully (1-2 days), then the washing/ rewashing/ drying waiting periods. About how long do you take from the moment you pour gallon/ litre one into your processor till you have a finished, clean product? I'm fine waiting and getting a good output, but don't want to fool myself into thinking it can be done in about 2 days or so. A week? 4 days? 2 weeks? Last one for ya.. if you can take any more! :) My friends ask, how do you know it's good stuff when you are done? At this point can only reply that since I haven't sent a batch into a lab to test for ASTM standards that it appears about all a person can do is to essentially check the viscosity, see if the oil will mix quickly with a bit of water in a beaker, and if the color is amber but crystal clear. Am I missing any other sort of home brew test you can do besides pouring it into an engine to see if it doesn't blow everyting up? I read your article on JTF, and it pretty much says if you followed the plans carefully, you're all set. Any other ideas? Thanks in
Re: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing
x-charset ISO-8859-1Paul, For most, simple HDPE gallon jugs or HDPE 5 gallon carboys are sufficient, preferably translucent. Prepare the sodium methoxide 12-24 hours in advance and time will do most of the dissolving for you, with perhaps an occasional bit of agitation. KOH dissolves much more readily (a matter of minutes with mild agitation) than NaOH, but perhaps is not as available for some. Doesn't matter if the process you choose is acid/base or straight base. It serves your interests best if you make sure that adequate mixing takes place. Treat neither any differently from the other. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Paul B.Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biodiesel lisst serve biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing Just wondering what other people are using to mix up the lye and methanol with. Seems that I read alot about putting it in a sealed container to avoid fumes... but then how do you mix it up? Just shake it around or do you need to have some sort of sealed mixed in the carboy??! Does that do enough? The Foolproof method notes that ... It's nasty stuff and it's not easy to mix -- and it must be thoroughly mixed before you use it, with all the lye dissolved and goes on to note that you just give it a series of swirls and then let it sit. Is that enough to thoroughly mix it?! Sounds good to me if so as I was planning on having to mix up several small batches in my blender and then pouring them into a container together, sealing that and then having it gravity fed through a tube into the processor. So,... just pour, shake thoroughly, and drain..?!. Also, does the base vs acid process demand more or less thorough mixing? Any thoughts out there? - Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] methoxide mixing was Re: anyone make kits to make biodiesl ?
Hi Mark, I agree with you on using electric hot water tanks. I've got an 80 gallon electric tank I'm going to use as my wash tank. We did one batch using NaOH mixing with the chem mixer tank. At the time, we didn't have a system for slowly dropping in the catalyst. So we quickly popped the top off and just dumped the whole load of NaOH into the methanol, trying to minimize our exposure to the fumes. Not good! The pump started to groan and shutter quite a bit. This action didn't seem to do any permanent damage to the pump. Eventually the NaOH did dissolve. There was quite a large clump sitting on the bottom for awhile. We have now devised a system made from an 18 inch length of 4 inch PVC pipe with a screw cap on top. The bottom is reduced down to 2 inch, where I cut a slot into the pipe. Into the slot I fitted a flat piece of rigid plastic where I can slide it in and out, thereby controlling the flow of catalyst. The bottom of the 2 inch PVC has a male PVC pipe fitting which fits into a PVC female coupling epoxied into the lid. After filling the mix tank with the proper amount of methanol, and putting in the measured amount of catalyst into the feeder pipe contraption, I thread out the plug in the female coupling and thread in the PVC catalyst contraption. I then slowly pull out the slide until I can hear the KOH dropping into the methanol. Works very well. I believe this type of system would work just as well with NaOH as with KOH, just taking a little more mixing time, and maybe dropping in less at a time. Another possibility for a valve of sorts I've seen available in Ag supply catalogs that would work for slowly feeding the catalyst is a type of plastic slider valve/gate valve, although it's more expensive. The the size of these chem mix tanks are in between a 30 gallon and a 55 gallon drum. Flat bottoms, with a drain in the center. The tops have rolled stainless steel edges, just like 55 gallon drum with the removable lids. The pumps are bolted directly under the drain area. We've modified the pumps a bit to allow us to take fluid from outside the tank, into the pumps, and pump directly out to another tank, without filling the tank these pumps are attached to. These tanks were built in the '70's. Parts, so far, are impossible to get from the company. The company (can't think of the name) is one of the many Japanese manufacturers making the high tech one hour photo finishing systems. I suppose these were designed for a large? photo lab, mixing up batches of their photo chemicals. Best regards, Chris skillshare wrote: Chris, Sounds like a very nice system! I'm pretty fond of pump agitation- I think it gets a really good initial mix of methoxide dispersed throughout the oil- but stirred tank reactors can be built cheaper. One thing that confuses people about 'how to build a processor'? is that there are just so many different options depending on the resources available- in your case, the photo mix tank, in my case, a glut of free barrels. I think the most basic 'off the shelf' system has got to be domestic water heaters- right now, a 50gallon electric one is $200 new in the hardware store, and the rest of the parts would run an additional $100- but having access to scrap or free parts can make some interesting combinations possible. My boyfriend has a homebuilt stirred tank reactor which additionally has a small mag-drive pump to mix in the methoxide, to help with better methoxide dispersal. He's got it set up so that the stream of methoxide shoots against the direction that the stirred tank oil rotates (hope this sentence makes sense). He already had these parts from having inherited a 'kit-makers' plastic processor which burned, and I wouldn't recommend doing it this way if designing a system from scratch, but the one you describe sounds really good and simple. KOH in my experience needs almost no agitation to dissolve in methanol. We just did it in front of an admiring crowd of Interns last night- watching the stuff dissolve in about 5 minutes just sitting there (it's low-free fatty acid oil with little KOH needed). After fighting with the 'is this lye dissolved yet?' question for a while, it was nice seeing it juyst magically disappear. (we use the 'Methoxide the Easy Way' system form journeytoforever, which with NaOh can be confusing to beginners sometimes since people seem to have some trouble seeing remaining clumps of lye for some reason) Have you tried your pump-agitated methoxide system using NaOH catalyst? I've always assumed it'd clog some pumps since it can form rather large clumps sometimes, and since with my equipment I either don't mix it mechanically or I use a drum mixer I found, I haven't had a chance to try this theory out. ANyone else using a pump to mix NaOH and methanol? What shape are the photographic chem mix tanks, and what is their usual application in photography? Take care,
