Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
I doubt that is necessary unless you are without virus Protection. Like I tell my users, in this day an age there is not much chance you will keep from getting a virus on your computer without virus protection. The only way to significantly decrease your chances of getting a virus without using virus protection, are to disable nearly all of your computers capabilities, i.e. Windows(LOL), never install any thirdparty programs, never download anything off the internet, and make sure that all supposed text files from message groups really are text files, never download any attachements, dont be part of any network. etc.. As you can see it is much simpler to use Nortons Antivirus or something similar that scans your email coming in and going out. Keep it updated... Nortons and probably most of the others by now will update themselves every wednesday over the internet thus keeping themselves updated. Bryan Fullerton White Knight Gifts www.youcandobusiness.com - Original Message - From: Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 4:34 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo Too much info If you wish to stop disseminating virii, accept only text to the list, (ie make all turn off HTML no attachments) To my knowledge there can't be a virus hidden in plain text. Any HTML posts just get rejected... (This only really affects AOL users, they apparently can't turn off HTML, but other lists I am on just get the uploads via hotmail (ie the user sets up a hotmail acct), so no probs. regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
If you're a Windoze user with Outhouse Express and Internet Exploder and all that wondrous stuff, make sure your anti-virus gear is updated and in place. Or GET A MAC!! and of course a firewall (and-or hardware firewall-router?) and antivirus software, used *intelligently*. Just my ignorant opinion. And, by the way, Macs are vulnerable to attack too. It just seems to be a conception, among macsters, that they are not vulnerable to attack. I imagine there's some truth to the idea that they are somewhat less vulnerable. Keith Have another look at Linux: It will run on most hardware, is definitely not Virus prone (I have not had a V checker for 3 years!) - but there will come a time when virii will go the Linux way, but as I log on the web as a 'user' with no administrative priveleges, a virus will only affect 'user' files - not system (unless they use obscure vulnerabilities - but the fixes appear for Linux very fast, so as yet it has never happened to any Linux users I know) I run an old computer as a firewall running IPCop (a dedicated Linux firewall that even a Windows user could load on a computer get running) look here for details: http://www.ipcop.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/IPCop/WebHome The firewall runs on a P166 with 24M mem, 240M HDD. It will even run on cable! Regards Doug (I run Mandrake 9.0 - an easy to configure O/S good for workstations. (Debian is better for Servers - but please no arguments! This is personal opinion) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
First let me note that I suppose you could just ask for any users in India to please note that one of them is inadvertently causing a security hazard for the group, and could they please check their security setups and-or consider a new email client. There are free ones out there (such as I think the one I referenced), and there are affordable ones out there if they want to own a more-robust one. but there is a 3rd solution which you do not mention, which should perhaps be mentioned, in this context, as it is probably the most practical. Getting a Mac, i.e., changing one's entire computer setup, would cost $500-$2500 just for initial hardware and writeoff of one's old equipment, several hundred or thousand more for replacement of one's apps, and one-can-only-estimate for-oneself how much in personal retraining and re-setup. Um, no. You have dismissed what for me or any other windows user would be a very expensive proposition, only because you are able to partly refute one of the considerations I listed. While I did not know that Windows emulation could be done on a Mac, or is any good (at least, some seem to claim it is), this would not necessarily guarantee an expense-free-migration. Some of my apps are on disk. Most are shareware I've paid for. All would have to be migrated, and perhaps the manufacturer contacted for a reinstall. It is not even remotely guaranteed that this change in setup would be cost-free. I'd bet money that some of them would not load up and register properly. As to working well, I don't assume that they'd work well in a Windows upgrade any more than I'd assume they'd work in a migration. I respect Mac's claims, but not to the point where I'd just willy-nilly assume everything would go hunky dory, particularly as we're talking about running a Microsoft product. In any case, it's good to know that a part of one's expenses could put down to this service of running Windows emulation, so I will try to keep my eye open for it. What I'd need to know next would be if this could be accomplished by transferring entire files and directories, as I would to a new Windows machine, in an attempt to quick-and-dirty get them running, or if it would require an install procedure on a Mac of a Windows app which I'm not sure I'd trust as much to work. This doesn't even address the other costs of migration, including time, trouble, and the difficulties of retraining one's brain to critical computer tasks that are performed somewhat differently. You can run Windoze on a Mac, with all your Windoze apps. Recent tests have found the Mac Windoze emulator runs better than PC Windoze. Macs are easy to set up, they more or less set themselves up, there's very little to do, especially for new users - Mac users upgrading might have more problems getting some of their existing software working right, but still not much of a problem. The learning curve isn't steep, it's very intuitive, you learn by doing. It's a myth that Macs are very expensive - some of them are, but these are great machines, good deal: http://www.apple.com/imac/ Apple - iMac http://www.apple.com/ibook/ Apple - iBook Lifetime costs are lower than for PCs, and productivity is higher. Yah, yah, I know I know. I'm not disputing it, but it gets old and it gets boring. If they wanted my business 10 years ago, they shouldn't have been high priced and they shouldn't have been computer snobs. In my case, one of the things I'd look for would be for the company and its application writers to make a better effort to offer me some sort of trade-in deal so that I could make sure to outfit any new Mac with equivalent application software. I think you're asking a bit much. Nope, I'm asking for very little. They've been telling me for years that they're better and that migration would be good for me. They've done very little to address the costs of migration, in their sales pitches to me, that have reached me. They've run recent ads on TV with happyish yuppie-ish people who have gone from Windows to Mac and loved it and not ONCE has this Windows emulation, or its hopeful cost savings, been mentioned that I have heard. It would qualify as doing something to address that whole concern, if they'd bothered to mention it, with all this money they're spending on ads. Probably Microsoft shot it down, since last I checked they had a big chunk of Apple stock (using it as proof against their monopoly), though I think there was some provision for sunsetting that. If I am concerned with nothing else, I am concerned with disrespect for a consumer's time and money, and to not even talk about the real costs that any consumer would be worried about, including time, trouble and money, is to end the deal right there as far as I'm concerned. It is a moot point. I haven't thought about getting a Mac for years and years. If the emulation software *does* work right I might consider it for my next purchase. Too bad *that's* not what
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
On Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:43:32 +0900, you wrote: Hi MM Thanks for this. We do at the moment have a member apparently in India with a virus that's picking members' names out of his address book and sending itself to people, with false sender names of other list members. It's impossible to find out who he is from the information that's available. I may have tracked down his ISP but all I can get out of them so far is an auto-response. I guess it happens all the time, I just happen to know of this one. A problem is that so many users know so little about using their machines and simply don't know about virus gear and how to keep it updated. That seems amazing but it's true. PS: I suppose going forward you could require new members to show evidence of non-use of one of the offending email clients (Outlook, Outlook Express, Netscape, whatever), by sending an email with header info that would indicate this. And-or you could post a link on the signup area to alternative email clients for Windows users. http://www.tucows.com/mail95_default.html Looking these over, though, there are several hazardous ones in there (possibly using the inbuilt address book). Mine isn't listed because its known as a free intergrated usenet reader. I guess maybe you could list Pegasus and agent.99 as two free email clients, if you didn't want to confuse people with a huge list. I don't know if Pegasus has an address book that is vulnerable. As I look at mine, unfortunately, the free version does not seem to support email, only usenet: http://www.forteinc.com/agent/features.php So, that is not an answer as to the zero-cost way to wean windows users from damaging email clients. Agent looks like it's $29.00 Anyway, I don't mean to suggest work for you, but if one is the moderator of a mail list and if this Outlook issue is still causing work, then maybe discouragement of using it would save work. Funny, but I heard on a retreat last year Gates had come back with the notion that security was going to be a big focus of the company. Guess they haven't quite solved it all yet. But this failure isn't as much of a mystery to me because I had the benefit of a conversation with a hacker 6 years ago about this, and he was quite clear that he doubted some of Windows Security problems *could* ever be solved, given its architecture. I've seldom seen him so tickled-pink, so content, when he was sitting there chuckling, foreseeing how MS would try to solve this or that and it just wouldn't do any good because putting that finger in the dike just wasn't going to stop the water from coming. For some reason, the contemplation of the possibility of this happening and MS's misery at that point just seemed to make him sort of quiet and content and satisfied. Maybe he thought, for some reason, they deserved a bit of misery? I don't know about WinXP because that's based on NT, not on DOS. I didn't upgrade to it because I didn't want to lose the functionality of some apps. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
snip You have dismissed what for me or any other windows user would be a very expensive proposition, only because you are able to partly refute one of the considerations I listed. I don't want to argue with you MM, I wasn't being combative, but you are. I offered some information, if you don't want it, that's fine. While I did not know that Windows emulation could be done on a Mac, or is any good (at least, some seem to claim it is), Independent people have achieved those test results, according to a report I saw recently. The software has been around for 16 years that I know of, several varieties available now I think. Also Windows Compatibility Cards. I don't know much about them. I know people use them, some people swear by them. A lot of the software is cross-platform anyway, it could probably be swapped with the vendors for an upgrade fee or something. this would not necessarily guarantee an expense-free-migration. Why should it be expense-free? What you've done before is your problem. If I were forced into a position where I had to use PCs and change all my gear, what sort of assistance or guarantees or anything whatsoever would I get from the PC world? Zilch is the answer, as I know, having recently seen just that happening to a VERY unhappy Mac user. There have been plenty of others. They're on their own, why shouldn't you be? snip It's a myth that Macs are very expensive - some of them are, but these are great machines, good deal: http://www.apple.com/imac/ Apple - iMac http://www.apple.com/ibook/ Apple - iBook Lifetime costs are lower than for PCs, and productivity is higher. Yah, yah, I know I know. I'm not disputing it, but it gets old and it gets boring. If they wanted my business 10 years ago, they shouldn't have been high priced and they shouldn't have been computer snobs. If you insist. No need to be rude. In my case, one of the things I'd look for would be for the company and its application writers to make a better effort to offer me some sort of trade-in deal so that I could make sure to outfit any new Mac with equivalent application software. I think you're asking a bit much. Nope, I'm asking for very little. They've been telling me for years that they're better and that migration would be good for me. They've done very little to address the costs of migration, in their sales pitches to me, that have reached me. They've run recent ads on TV with happyish yuppie-ish people who have gone from Windows to Mac and loved it and not ONCE has this Windows emulation, or its hopeful cost savings, been mentioned that I have heard. It would qualify as doing something to address that whole concern, if they'd bothered to mention it, with all this money they're spending on ads. Probably Microsoft shot it down, since last I checked they had a big chunk of Apple stock (using it as proof against their monopoly), though I think there was some provision for sunsetting that. If I am concerned with nothing else, I am concerned with disrespect for a consumer's time and money, and to not even talk about the real costs that any consumer would be worried about, including time, trouble and money, is to end the deal right there as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry, but I find all this a bit preposterous. It is a moot point. I haven't thought about getting a Mac for years and years. If the emulation software *does* work right I might consider it for my next purchase. Too bad *that's* not what they were advertising. Gee, I wonder why not. They don't make it. It's independent. It has nothing to do with Apple. We all know Macs are susceptible to viruses, we don't think they're not, but we also all know that it hardly ever happens. This sounds more accurate. However, I'd also say that, since I've taken the various measures that I've outlined here, I've had fewer viruses than the one or two Mac users I've spoken with regularly. I can remember only one, in seven years. I have had a couple of close calls, but I've only actually had one infect my computer that I'm aware. I had one in 1987, I've forgotten what it was called, but it didn't do any harm. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
Too much info If you wish to stop disseminating virii, accept only text to the list, (ie make all turn off HTML no attachments) To my knowledge there can't be a virus hidden in plain text. Any HTML posts just get rejected... (This only really affects AOL users, they apparently can't turn off HTML, but other lists I am on just get the uploads via hotmail (ie the user sets up a hotmail acct), so no probs. regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
Too much info If you wish to stop disseminating virii, accept only text to the list, (ie make all turn off HTML no attachments) To my knowledge there can't be a virus hidden in plain text. Any HTML posts just get rejected... (This only really affects AOL users, they apparently can't turn off HTML, but other lists I am on just get the uploads via hotmail (ie the user sets up a hotmail acct), so no probs. regards Doug Hello Doug The list is text-only and accepts no attachments, it's been set that way for a long time. No viruses are spread by the list. What does happen is that members' computers might pick up viruses elsewhere, and the virus then copies addresses out of their address book, including list addresses. Viruses also pick up false sender addresses from address books, including list addresses, and then some members become convinced that they're getting viruses from the list. They're not. Nonetheless they unsubscribe, and of course still get the viruses. This has happened to some people who're still convinced they got viruses from the list. That's not very rational, but there you are. It's a computer problem, an Internet problem and a user problem, not a list problem. I said in an earlier post: We do at the moment have a member apparently in India with a virus that's picking members' names out of his address book and sending itself to people, with false sender names of other list members. It's impossible to find out who he is from the information that's available. I may have tracked down his ISP but all I can get out of them so far is an auto-response. I guess it happens all the time, I just happen to know of this one. A problem is that so many users know so little about using their machines and simply don't know about virus gear and how to keep it updated. That seems amazing but it's true. This is all happening entirely off-list, the list itself plays no role in it, it goes direct, not via the list. So it's not a question of list members being vulnerable - members of any list are vulnerable, anyone who uses email is vulnerable, whether they belong to any lists or not. I'm not crazy about the idea of viruses going about claiming they come from the Biofuel list, so when I discover a case like this I try to stop it. But there's not much I can do, and there's a limit to the trouble I'll take over it. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
Hello Doug This is all happening entirely off-list, the list itself plays no role in it, it goes direct, not via the list. So it's not a question of list members being vulnerable - members of any list are vulnerable, anyone who uses email is vulnerable, whether they belong to any lists or not. I'm not crazy about the idea of viruses going about claiming they come from the Biofuel list, so when I discover a case like this I try to stop it. But there's not much I can do, and there's a limit to the trouble I'll take over it. Best Keith I agree. All you have to do is be wary of emails that do not come from the list (they are not smart enough to Alias are they?) I have had Virii come from emails before, but my system ignores them as it can't run the attached programmes (altho Java would run, it cant get access to system resources) Thanks Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
Lifetime costs are lower than for PCs, and productivity is higher. Yah, yah, I know I know. I'm not disputing it, but it gets old and it gets boring. If they wanted my business 10 years ago, they shouldn't have been high priced and they shouldn't have been computer snobs. If you insist. No need to be rude. Well, I'm sorry, I was somewhat rude in my response. I guess I've grown to take my PC personally. Might as well talk about my car, if I'd put many dozens of man-hours into buying things for it. Additionally, I'd have to say, I agree: there was no need for them to be rude at the time. I was aware of efforts to emulate Windows under MAC, but I'd pretty much forgotten about them, since it's been too long for me to look back and worry about it. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
By the way, some of these viruses steal senders' addresses out of people's mailboxes and send counterfeit messages with counterfeit subject-lines. They might thus appear to be coming from the lists, but they're not, they're counterfeits. In the past people haven't believed this and unsubbed, and still got the messages. So if you're getting viruses, you're NOT getting them from the Biofuel or Biofuels-biz list. If you're a Windoze user with Outhouse Express and Internet Exploder and all that wondrous stuff, make sure your anti-virus gear is updated and in place. Or GET A MAC!! I'm sure that Macs are terribly nice machines, but there is a 3rd solution which you do not mention, which should perhaps be mentioned, in this context, as it is probably the most practical. Getting a Mac, i.e., changing one's entire computer setup, would cost $500-$2500 just for initial hardware and writeoff of one's old equipment, several hundred or thousand more for replacement of one's apps, and one-can-only-estimate for-oneself how much in personal retraining and re-setup. In my case, one of the things I'd look for would be for the company and its application writers to make a better effort to offer me some sort of trade-in deal so that I could make sure to outfit any new Mac with equivalent application software. I've owned, for about $50 2002 dollars, a Windows non-Outlook Express email client for 7 years, and although it has its deficiencies, to be sure, one of its primary advantages is that it is *not* Outlook or Netscape or Eudora, and it does not employ any of their address book schemes, that I can tell. So, it is not as vulnerable to these address book invasion ways that Outlook-targeting viruses seem to propogate. It also is ok at turning off these automated functions that seem to go with endangering one's setup by opening attachments in Outlook and the like. The one that I use can be downloaded from here: http://www.forteinc.com/agent/download.php however, I use the paid-for version. Also note that it is a usenet reader, and that is a separate matter. I don't really use that aspect of it, even though that was its primary thing. I am not trying to advocate use of the email client that I have, only trying to impart that, as to this assinine security vulnerability that Microsoft has allowed to fester for year after year, there are solutions for Windows users that are slightly effective, and that do not necessitate the expense of thousands of dollars. I also advocate trying other email clients, seeing which one you like, and then *paying for it*. It may sound silly, but I think it's sort of cheaper to pay for these things in the long run then to perpetually try to get away with using them for free, particularly if it is to be one's most heavily-used application. Other security measures not completely unreasonable, in a poor-man's practical, no-one-measure-is-sufficient-always-be-on-guard-layered-approach are: www.grc.com and of course a firewall (and-or hardware firewall-router?) and antivirus software, used *intelligently*. Just my ignorant opinion. And, by the way, Macs are vulnerable to attack too. It just seems to be a conception, among macsters, that they are not vulnerable to attack. I imagine there's some truth to the idea that they are somewhat less vulnerable. MM Regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WARNING! - enemy action by Yahoo
Hi MM Thanks for this. We do at the moment have a member apparently in India with a virus that's picking members' names out of his address book and sending itself to people, with false sender names of other list members. It's impossible to find out who he is from the information that's available. I may have tracked down his ISP but all I can get out of them so far is an auto-response. I guess it happens all the time, I just happen to know of this one. A problem is that so many users know so little about using their machines and simply don't know about virus gear and how to keep it updated. That seems amazing but it's true. By the way, some of these viruses steal senders' addresses out of people's mailboxes and send counterfeit messages with counterfeit subject-lines. They might thus appear to be coming from the lists, but they're not, they're counterfeits. In the past people haven't believed this and unsubbed, and still got the messages. So if you're getting viruses, you're NOT getting them from the Biofuel or Biofuels-biz list. If you're a Windoze user with Outhouse Express and Internet Exploder and all that wondrous stuff, make sure your anti-virus gear is updated and in place. Or GET A MAC!! I'm sure that Macs are terribly nice machines, Yes they are! :-) but there is a 3rd solution which you do not mention, which should perhaps be mentioned, in this context, as it is probably the most practical. Getting a Mac, i.e., changing one's entire computer setup, would cost $500-$2500 just for initial hardware and writeoff of one's old equipment, several hundred or thousand more for replacement of one's apps, and one-can-only-estimate for-oneself how much in personal retraining and re-setup. Um, no. You can run Windoze on a Mac, with all your Windoze apps. Recent tests have found the Mac Windoze emulator runs better than PC Windoze. Macs are easy to set up, they more or less set themselves up, there's very little to do, especially for new users - Mac users upgrading might have more problems getting some of their existing software working right, but still not much of a problem. The learning curve isn't steep, it's very intuitive, you learn by doing. It's a myth that Macs are very expensive - some of them are, but these are great machines, good deal: http://www.apple.com/imac/ Apple - iMac http://www.apple.com/ibook/ Apple - iBook Lifetime costs are lower than for PCs, and productivity is higher. In my case, one of the things I'd look for would be for the company and its application writers to make a better effort to offer me some sort of trade-in deal so that I could make sure to outfit any new Mac with equivalent application software. I think you're asking a bit much. I've owned, for about $50 2002 dollars, a Windows non-Outlook Express email client for 7 years, and although it has its deficiencies, to be sure, one of its primary advantages is that it is *not* Outlook or Netscape or Eudora, and it does not employ any of their address book schemes, that I can tell. So, it is not as vulnerable to these address book invasion ways that Outlook-targeting viruses seem to propogate. It also is ok at turning off these automated functions that seem to go with endangering one's setup by opening attachments in Outlook and the like. The one that I use can be downloaded from here: http://www.forteinc.com/agent/download.php however, I use the paid-for version. Also note that it is a usenet reader, and that is a separate matter. I don't really use that aspect of it, even though that was its primary thing. I am not trying to advocate use of the email client that I have, only trying to impart that, as to this assinine security vulnerability that Microsoft has allowed to fester for year after year, there are solutions for Windows users that are slightly effective, and that do not necessitate the expense of thousands of dollars. I also advocate trying other email clients, seeing which one you like, and then *paying for it*. It may sound silly, but I think it's sort of cheaper to pay for these things in the long run then to perpetually try to get away with using them for free, particularly if it is to be one's most heavily-used application. Other security measures not completely unreasonable, in a poor-man's practical, no-one-measure-is-sufficient-always-be-on-guard-layered-approach are: www.grc.com and of course a firewall (and-or hardware firewall-router?) and antivirus software, used *intelligently*. Just my ignorant opinion. A sound opinion, thanks, it'll help. Windoze itself is a virus magnet, but you can definitely reduce the damage (and the nuisance to others) by getting away from the other M$ software, especially Outlook, then Explorer (try Opera), and the Office suite is full of vulnerabilities. And, by the way, Macs are vulnerable to attack too. It just seems to be a conception, among macsters, that they are not vulnerable to attack. I imagine there's
