Re: [biofuels-biz] Standards - was Re: [biofuel] The importance of proper filtering
I don't know... Petrol, gasoline and ethanol make no mention of the engine type they are used in. Also the name diesel suggests we are connected with the dirty stuff provided by the petrochem industry. Petrol and gasoline are not trying to establish themselves in a tough market, as is biodiesel. Adding the bio to diesel tends to dissociate it from the petrocorps and give it a quite different connotation, not dirty. Why be shy about the word diesel when you're going to have to explain it in the next breath anyway? And I don't think we should be shy of diesels, we should be proud of what we do with our diesels, we've got the best answer going. If we dump the name diesel perhaps we also dump all it's dirty associations. I don't think biodiesel does have dirty associations. I don't think diesel does either, except in the US - everyone else is promoting diesels because they cut CO2, and they're clean enough these days anyway, very clean indeed once you dump the fuel. See, for instance: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/27/business/27DIES.html It Gets 78 Miles a Gallon, but U.S. Snubs Diesel Anyway, you're proposing that all the really hard work done by so many people to publicise biodiesel should be abandoned because of a few confused countries in SE Asia - nor would it necessarily solve the problem in SE Asia, quite possibly just add to the confusion. The Germans call it FAME or Diester. We can finds ways to knock those names but at least they don't try to associate with the dirty petro stuff. No need to find ways to knock them, they're meaningless, nobody knows what they are, they're not names that associate with anything, won't stick easily in the public mind. All the other names are similarly meaningless, only biodiesel explains itself. Try it on a reporter. What's FAME? he'll say. Fatty Acid Methyl Esters. Uh-huh. You'll never get either of them in a headline, that's for sure. Why create extra problems which the existing term doesn't have? Best Keith Addison D --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we need to reconsider the fuel's name. The term biodiesel means methyl ester (to us), but to almost anybody else it simply means a fuel with a biological content. We could start calling the stuff we make methyl ester, but that's not the whole solution maybe bioester is better as it would also support ethyl ester. But it would take us away from diesel, which would be a great loss. Nobody knows what ester means - ethyl ester sounds like a 50s movie star, and methyl ester like the old soak she became by the 90s. Biodiesel is a good term. I think the best solution, if there is one, is to promote real biodiesel, as opposed to SVO - straight veggie oil - in the SE Asian region. There are people in Thailand making biodiesel and planning to go commercial if they can. Here's a message from one such: From: kesara [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] Thai king promotes home-grown green palm fuels Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:37:04 +0700 Hi! Keith, Thanks for your concern. We are trying to set our plant very soon if possible. Many people are interested in our project. Seems like we are the first group in our country to be able to transesterify coconut oil in a large batch. They came to us with some promises to help us set up the plant however we haven't gone to that point yet. Any way we still plan to set it up in our home first. We may face some problems from the law about BD distribution. Could you let us know how the biofuel-biz group can help to set up the project? Thanks. Kesara All best Keith Addison Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Standards - was Re: [biofuel] The importance of proper filtering
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we need to reconsider the fuel's name. The term biodiesel means methyl ester (to us), but to almost anybody else it simply means a fuel with a biological content. We could start calling the stuff we make methyl ester, but that's not the whole solution maybe bioester is better as it would also support ethyl ester. But it would take us away from diesel, which would be a great loss. Nobody knows what ester means - ethyl ester sounds like a 50s movie star, and methyl ester like the old soak she became by the 90s. Biodiesel is a good term. I think the best solution, if there is one, is to promote real biodiesel, as opposed to SVO - straight veggie oil - in the SE Asian region. There are people in Thailand making biodiesel and planning to go commercial if they can. Here's a message from one such: From: kesara [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] Thai king promotes home-grown green palm fuels Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:37:04 +0700 Hi! Keith, Thanks for your concern. We are trying to set our plant very soon if possible. Many people are interested in our project. Seems like we are the first group in our country to be able to transesterify coconut oil in a large batch. They came to us with some promises to help us set up the plant however we haven't gone to that point yet. Any way we still plan to set it up in our home first. We may face some problems from the law about BD distribution. Could you let us know how the biofuel-biz group can help to set up the project? Thanks. Kesara All best Keith Addison Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Standards - was Re: [biofuel] The importance of proper filtering
I don't know... Petrol, gasoline and ethanol make no mention of the engine type they are used in. Also the name diesel suggests we are connected with the dirty stuff provided by the petrochem industry. If we dump the name diesel perhaps we also dump all it's dirty associations. The Germans call it FAME or Diester. We can finds ways to knock those names but at least they don't try to associate with the dirty petro stuff. D --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think we need to reconsider the fuel's name. The term biodiesel means methyl ester (to us), but to almost anybody else it simply means a fuel with a biological content. We could start calling the stuff we make methyl ester, but that's not the whole solution maybe bioester is better as it would also support ethyl ester. But it would take us away from diesel, which would be a great loss. Nobody knows what ester means - ethyl ester sounds like a 50s movie star, and methyl ester like the old soak she became by the 90s. Biodiesel is a good term. I think the best solution, if there is one, is to promote real biodiesel, as opposed to SVO - straight veggie oil - in the SE Asian region. There are people in Thailand making biodiesel and planning to go commercial if they can. Here's a message from one such: From: kesara [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuel] Thai king promotes home-grown green palm fuels Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:37:04 +0700 Hi! Keith, Thanks for your concern. We are trying to set our plant very soon if possible. Many people are interested in our project. Seems like we are the first group in our country to be able to transesterify coconut oil in a large batch. They came to us with some promises to help us set up the plant however we haven't gone to that point yet. Any way we still plan to set it up in our home first. We may face some problems from the law about BD distribution. Could you let us know how the biofuel-biz group can help to set up the project? Thanks. Kesara All best Keith Addison Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Standards - was Re: [biofuel] The importance of proper filtering
I think we need to reconsider the fuel's name. The term biodiesel means methyl ester (to us), but to almost anybody else it simply means a fuel with a biological content. We could start calling the stuff we make methyl ester, but that's not the whole solution maybe bioester is better as it would also support ethyl ester. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi David I agree with you anyway, but my lamentation over filtering didn't refer to the need to filter the biodiesel, and the main problem in this case is that it's not biodiesel anyway, but that's what they're calling it. When you first start using biodiesel, even excellent biodiesel, you have to check the fuel filter often at first because the stuff loosens up all the gunk previously laid down by the dinodiesel. These people clearly aren't being told that - but I don't know if this mixture of coconut oil and petrodiesel (blend might be stretching it a bit) has the same detergent effect or not. Coco-diesel might indeed work as claimed, if made to standard, I don't know that either, but it seems clear there aren't any quality controls at work in this case. I'm not knocking it - as Terry says, any petrodiesel replaced is good petrodiesel! But I haven't seen any reliable test results. The whole thing seems to be a sloppy mess that won't do anyone much good except maybe a few quick-buck artists. Keith, You are not the only one. I have just been waiting for this to happen and quite frankly I am suprised it has taken as long as this to arise. I believe this is always going to be a problem with small scale production but at the same time I am most definitely for small scale production as I see this area being of most help to the initial producer and being able to quickly feed back the benefits to those it can most benfit. I do not wish to see the industry concentrated into the hands or as an adjunct of the big oil companies whose record over the last 100 years speaks for itself showing a history of exploitation, abuse, and denial of the rights of the individual and minor countries. At the same time I believe anyone who is manufacturing and onselling for profit should have a moral and legal responsibility to produce and provide biodiesel to an acceptable standard. This is why I would like to see any manufacturer anywhere bound by minimum legal standards which can be upheld and enforced. That would take time, and wouldn't be easy. I'd like to see an international association of biodiesel and biofuels producers who developed and upheld their own standards among themselves, for their own good and the good of all. A comparison would be organic growing standards, with lots of local variations, generally well developed, applied, and upheld over the years by a wide variety of local bodies to which growers were affiliated, all under the regulating umbrella of IFOAM, the International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements. None of it was legally binding (until the gummints came along, and messed it all up many say), but it worked well. There'd be a case for saying that small-scale local producers might need less regulating than monstrosities like Big Oil - we all know what self-regulation means to them! When you're part of a local community you're dealing with people who know you, your reputation really matters and it can't be rigged via a bit of spin and some loot slipped to the politicians. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ B.r., David - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:56 PM Subject: [biofuel] Coco-diesel - Engine repair claims turned down I've been expecting something like this. I've had doubts that this SVO mixture that's being misnamed biodiesel would escape the need for a dual-fuel system. This could do a lot of harm. Not cleaning the filters either. Mess. :-( Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Engine repair claims turned down Bangkok Post 28 May 2001 Carmakers, insurers want fuel regulated Walailak Keeratipipatpong Santan Santivimolnat Motorists keen to use biodiesel as fuel are thinking twice as carmakers and insurance companies are refusing to take responsibility for engine damage. snip Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Standards - was Re: [biofuel] The importance of proper filtering
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 3:10 PM Subject: Standards - was Re: [biofuel] The importance of proper filtering I agree with you anyway, but my lamentation over filtering didn't refer to the need to filter the biodiesel, and the main problem in this case is that it's not biodiesel anyway, but that's what they're calling it. ** At the end of the day there will probably be several forms of biodiesel. Not sure I would have called the Russian petrol or gasoline I got in Afghanistan years ago either but at the end of the day that was its generic name and what I ran the vehicle on even if it didnt look like or smell like these. When you first start using biodiesel, even excellent biodiesel, you have to check the fuel filter often at first because the stuff loosens up all the gunk previously laid down by the dinodiesel. These people clearly aren't being told that - but I don't know if this mixture of coconut oil and petrodiesel (blend might be stretching it a bit) has the same detergent effect or not. ** Anything with a slightly different chemical formula frees up and releases a lot of caked on or built up carbon, varnish, sludge etc. When a by-pass filter is fitted you would be amazed at how much this quickly pulls out of the system because instead of letting the carbons and other contaminants to circulate these are immediately pulled out and the oil which then retains its initial viscoscity and most of its additives can quickly get at the deposits rather than having a barrier between them. When fitted to a new engine you would be amazed at the amount of metal filings and other rubbish there is in a motor. After looking at the ones I have already seen the terms exacting automobile engineers and precision engineering are a bit of a joke and appear to be a complete contradiction of my understanding of the terms. Coco-diesel might indeed work as claimed, if made to standard, I don't know that either, but it seems clear there aren't any quality controls at work in this case. ** This is why I believe minimum standards are very important and need to be implemented quickly. As an analogy Would you visit a brothel if you knew all the girls working there had aids? In the end shoddy standards reflect upon the others in the industry and drive away those people wishing to enter. I'm not knocking it - as Terry says, any petrodiesel replaced is good petrodiesel! But I haven't seen any reliable test results. The whole thing seems to be a sloppy mess that won't do anyone much good except maybe a few quick-buck artists. Keith, You are not the only one. I have just been waiting for this to happen and quite frankly I am suprised it has taken as long as this to arise. I believe this is always going to be a problem with small scale production but at the same time I am most definitely for small scale production as I see this area being of most help to the initial producer and being able to quickly feed back the benefits to those it can most benfit. I do not wish to see the industry concentrated into the hands or as an adjunct of the big oil companies whose record over the last 100 years speaks for itself showing a history of exploitation, abuse, and denial of the rights of the individual and minor countries. At the same time I believe anyone who is manufacturing and onselling for profit should have a moral and legal responsibility to produce and provide biodiesel to an acceptable standard. This is why I would like to see any manufacturer anywhere bound by minimum legal standards which can be upheld and enforced. That would take time, and wouldn't be easy. I'd like to see an international association of biodiesel and biofuels producers who developed and upheld their own standards among themselves, for their own good and the good of all. ** Quite agreed. I believe the easiest way to do this is for every country to implement its own standards. Generally the easiest way to do this is to pay attention to what has gone before and implement those standards as ones own or make the necessary minor adjustments based on experience and requirement. ernational Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements. None of it was legally binding (until the gummints came along, and messed it all up many say), but it worked well. There'd be a case for saying that small-scale local producers might need less regulating than monstrosities like Big Oil - we all know what self-regulation means to them! When you're part of a local community you're dealing with people who know you, your reputation really matters and it can't be rigged via a bit of spin and some loot slipped to the politicians. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ B.r., David - Original Message - From: Keith
[biofuels-biz] Standards - was Re: [biofuel] The importance of proper filtering
Hi David I agree with you anyway, but my lamentation over filtering didn't refer to the need to filter the biodiesel, and the main problem in this case is that it's not biodiesel anyway, but that's what they're calling it. When you first start using biodiesel, even excellent biodiesel, you have to check the fuel filter often at first because the stuff loosens up all the gunk previously laid down by the dinodiesel. These people clearly aren't being told that - but I don't know if this mixture of coconut oil and petrodiesel (blend might be stretching it a bit) has the same detergent effect or not. Coco-diesel might indeed work as claimed, if made to standard, I don't know that either, but it seems clear there aren't any quality controls at work in this case. I'm not knocking it - as Terry says, any petrodiesel replaced is good petrodiesel! But I haven't seen any reliable test results. The whole thing seems to be a sloppy mess that won't do anyone much good except maybe a few quick-buck artists. Keith, You are not the only one. I have just been waiting for this to happen and quite frankly I am suprised it has taken as long as this to arise. I believe this is always going to be a problem with small scale production but at the same time I am most definitely for small scale production as I see this area being of most help to the initial producer and being able to quickly feed back the benefits to those it can most benfit. I do not wish to see the industry concentrated into the hands or as an adjunct of the big oil companies whose record over the last 100 years speaks for itself showing a history of exploitation, abuse, and denial of the rights of the individual and minor countries. At the same time I believe anyone who is manufacturing and onselling for profit should have a moral and legal responsibility to produce and provide biodiesel to an acceptable standard. This is why I would like to see any manufacturer anywhere bound by minimum legal standards which can be upheld and enforced. That would take time, and wouldn't be easy. I'd like to see an international association of biodiesel and biofuels producers who developed and upheld their own standards among themselves, for their own good and the good of all. A comparison would be organic growing standards, with lots of local variations, generally well developed, applied, and upheld over the years by a wide variety of local bodies to which growers were affiliated, all under the regulating umbrella of IFOAM, the International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements. None of it was legally binding (until the gummints came along, and messed it all up many say), but it worked well. There'd be a case for saying that small-scale local producers might need less regulating than monstrosities like Big Oil - we all know what self-regulation means to them! When you're part of a local community you're dealing with people who know you, your reputation really matters and it can't be rigged via a bit of spin and some loot slipped to the politicians. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ B.r., David - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:56 PM Subject: [biofuel] Coco-diesel - Engine repair claims turned down I've been expecting something like this. I've had doubts that this SVO mixture that's being misnamed biodiesel would escape the need for a dual-fuel system. This could do a lot of harm. Not cleaning the filters either. Mess. :-( Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Engine repair claims turned down Bangkok Post 28 May 2001 Carmakers, insurers want fuel regulated Walailak Keeratipipatpong Santan Santivimolnat Motorists keen to use biodiesel as fuel are thinking twice as carmakers and insurance companies are refusing to take responsibility for engine damage. snip Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Standards - was Re: [biofuel] The importance of proper filtering
Hi David I agree with you anyway, but my lamentation over filtering didn't refer to the need to filter the biodiesel, and the main problem in this case is that it's not biodiesel anyway, but that's what they're calling it. When you first start using biodiesel, even excellent biodiesel, you have to check the fuel filter often at first because the stuff loosens up all the gunk previously laid down by the dinodiesel. These people clearly aren't being told that - but I don't know if this mixture of coconut oil and petrodiesel (blend might be stretching it a bit) has the same detergent effect or not. Coco-diesel might indeed work as claimed, if made to standard, I don't know that either, but it seems clear there aren't any quality controls at work in this case. I'm not knocking it - as Terry says, any petrodiesel replaced is good petrodiesel! But I haven't seen any reliable test results. The whole thing seems to be a sloppy mess that won't do anyone much good except maybe a few quick-buck artists. Keith, You are not the only one. I have just been waiting for this to happen and quite frankly I am suprised it has taken as long as this to arise. I believe this is always going to be a problem with small scale production but at the same time I am most definitely for small scale production as I see this area being of most help to the initial producer and being able to quickly feed back the benefits to those it can most benfit. I do not wish to see the industry concentrated into the hands or as an adjunct of the big oil companies whose record over the last 100 years speaks for itself showing a history of exploitation, abuse, and denial of the rights of the individual and minor countries. At the same time I believe anyone who is manufacturing and onselling for profit should have a moral and legal responsibility to produce and provide biodiesel to an acceptable standard. This is why I would like to see any manufacturer anywhere bound by minimum legal standards which can be upheld and enforced. That would take time, and wouldn't be easy. I'd like to see an international association of biodiesel and biofuels producers who developed and upheld their own standards among themselves, for their own good and the good of all. A comparison would be organic growing standards, with lots of local variations, generally well developed, applied, and upheld over the years by a wide variety of local bodies to which growers were affiliated, all under the regulating umbrella of IFOAM, the International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements. None of it was legally binding (until the gummints came along, and messed it all up many say), but it worked well. There'd be a case for saying that small-scale local producers might need less regulating than monstrosities like Big Oil - we all know what self-regulation means to them! When you're part of a local community you're dealing with people who know you, your reputation really matters and it can't be rigged via a bit of spin and some loot slipped to the politicians. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ B.r., David - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 6:56 PM Subject: [biofuel] Coco-diesel - Engine repair claims turned down I've been expecting something like this. I've had doubts that this SVO mixture that's being misnamed biodiesel would escape the need for a dual-fuel system. This could do a lot of harm. Not cleaning the filters either. Mess. :-( Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Engine repair claims turned down Bangkok Post 28 May 2001 Carmakers, insurers want fuel regulated Walailak Keeratipipatpong Santan Santivimolnat Motorists keen to use biodiesel as fuel are thinking twice as carmakers and insurance companies are refusing to take responsibility for engine damage. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
