[svg-developers] Re: SVG performance
Unfortunately, the application must perform well without tweaking X settings. When we deploy it, it's simply too much to ask users to reconfigure or upgrade X in order to make our webapp work. I have to target a reasonably low common denominator. yes, I wouldn't expect my users to tweak XServer settings, either. But to find out what causes the problem, I myself am willing to play around with the XServer settings. As an example, I am pretty sure that your thousands or 10.000s of polylines could easily be reduced to a much smaller number of path elements. A single path element can represents several polylines, by using several M commands and greatly improve the performance. Unfortunately in my case not -- each polyline has its own individual identity and properties. (It is a mapping application, and the polylines are individual road segments which need to be drawn differently according to a variety of factors.) maybe, but maybe you can still combine the polylines that share the same attributes. Generally, what slows down the SVG renderers is the large number of DOM elements, not the complexity of the graphics itself. So I would really recommend that you try reducing the number of elements. I'd buy that. What made it collapse in this case was importNode(), which doesn't even seem to be SVG-specific. I haven't tried adaptNode(). neither did I, but I will give it a try to examine the differences. Also please be aware of the configuration problem of the XServer before you blame SVG or FirefoxSVG. I will do some investigations on this topic to see how to resolve and will let you know if I find out something about it. I certainly agree, but unfortunately asking our users to reconfigure X is simply not an option. the other question is if Firefox on Linux is really your only option? If you have to serve Linux users why not recommend the use of Opera9 until the Firefox issues are solved? Opera 9 is a small download and absolutely easy to install. Java users can also use Batik which runs reasonably well if you allow enough memory. On Windows, Firefox, Opera and ASV are an option, on Mac I currently recommend Opera and maybe Safari in the future. If you provide an example file we could probably help you improve performance. Yeah, I thought about that. We're not yet ready to expose the application to the world (we need to get systems staff to sign off on our configuration, etc.) and I'm not sure otherwise how to provide examples -- just giving you all the source code is unrealistic because no one will go to the significant effort of installing it. yes, certainly not. Filing a bug as Tim suggests is similarly a lot of work, and, while I agree that a bug would be much more useful than my vague mentions, I don't agree that vague mentions have zero value. What I'd love to see is an SVG torture suite that in addition to testing correctness also measures performance in a variety of areas; one measurement I would suggest on that is importNode() (or adoptNode()) on large DOM subtrees. well maybe filing a bug is some work, but its certainly more work for the developer to fix. I really encourage people to file bugs on problems they see in the SVG implementations. Opera, Firefox, Batik, they are all responsive to bug reports and they are usually fixed pretty fast. I fear that SVG may simply be not yet mature enough for our needs. SVG certainly is, but maybe some viewers aren't yet mature enough - at least not on all platforms. And SVG might not be the right solution for all problems. Huge amounts of mapping data certainly is one example where the current SVG viewers have their limit. But they are getting better and there are certainly a lot of things you can improve in your application. Serving, digestable chunks of SVG from databases is certainly a good starter. Flash might a short-term solution to your problem, but it requires a plugin, its harder to generate, dependent on a single company, less graphics features, etc. One solution might be to use alternatives (Java, Flash) now and later revisit the capabilities of the SVG viewers/ browsers. Andreas - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Pathdata in a non-userunit document
Hi! I've got a little problem to define a path (sounds simple :P). My document is based on mm and should be viewable on different media: On a normal display and on paper. I have fixed values for the stroke and the path data. The problem is that path data is always specified in user units. When rendering as a pdf in Batik one user unit equals 1pt. When rendering on a display or as a pixel based image one user unit equals 1px. This is a problem as my path data should be specified in mm as well. So i have to transform these values into user units (which might be pixel or points). What i can do is embed my path into a separate svg and specify a viewBox. Problem: The stroke is scaled as well (which should be 1pt). My current svg: ?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8 standalone=yes? svg width=90mm height=90mm preserveAspectRatio=none rect x=0 y=0 width=30mm height=30mm/ svg width=30mm height=30mm viewBox=0 0 100 100 preserveAspectRatio=none path d=M0,0 L100,100 stroke=red stroke-width=1pt/ /svg /svg How can i make a path from 0mm,0mm to 30mm,30mm and a stroke-width of exactly 1pt? Javascript solutions are not a solution for me. Kind regards, Andreas Streichardt - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] ajax or svg or flash or ...
what should be the future of the web? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: ajax or svg or flash or ...
well hopefully a combination of the first two: Ajax and SVG, its not an or, but an and. A typical Ajax application combines Javascript, DHTML and sometimes SVG/VML/Canvas. If the majority goes with flash, we'll end up with a binary only, inaccessible, vendor controlled web, with DRM all over the place. Andreas --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Erwan TROEL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what should be the future of the web? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: Pathdata in a non-userunit document
Hi Andreas, I would avoid the use of units wherever you can. In my opinion the only place where units really make sense is in the root element of the svg graphics, where you can define units for width and height, e.g. mm. This means you can define your stroke-width unitless, which means in user units. And yes, a viewBox on the root element is the way to go. I always use a viewBox to enable scaling. Would this work? In SVG tiny 1.2 TransfomRef enables non-scaling strokes: http://www.w3.org/TR/ SVGMobile12/coords.html#transform-ref - is that what you are looking for? Unfortunately, in SVG 1.1, the only way to do is with Javascript or during document generation. The good news is, that with Batik rasterizer you can still use javascript. It is executed prior to translating it into other formats. Hope this helps, Andreas --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Andreas Steichardt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! I've got a little problem to define a path (sounds simple :P). My document is based on mm and should be viewable on different media: On a normal display and on paper. I have fixed values for the stroke and the path data. The problem is that path data is always specified in user units. When rendering as a pdf in Batik one user unit equals 1pt. When rendering on a display or as a pixel based image one user unit equals 1px. This is a problem as my path data should be specified in mm as well. So i have to transform these values into user units (which might be pixel or points). What i can do is embed my path into a separate svg and specify a viewBox. Problem: The stroke is scaled as well (which should be 1pt). My current svg: ?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8 standalone=yes? svg width=90mm height=90mm preserveAspectRatio=none rect x=0 y=0 width=30mm height=30mm/ svg width=30mm height=30mm viewBox=0 0 100 100 preserveAspectRatio=none path d=M0,0 L100,100 stroke=red stroke-width=1pt/ /svg /svg How can i make a path from 0mm,0mm to 30mm,30mm and a stroke-width of exactly 1pt? Javascript solutions are not a solution for me. Kind regards, Andreas Streichardt - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: ajax or svg or flash or ...
DRM? - Original Message - From: Andreas Neumann To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 3:58 PM Subject: [svg-developers] Re: ajax or svg or flash or ... well hopefully a combination of the first two: Ajax and SVG, its not an or, but an and. A typical Ajax application combines Javascript, DHTML and sometimes SVG/VML/Canvas. If the majority goes with flash, we'll end up with a binary only, inaccessible, vendor controlled web, with DRM all over the place. Andreas --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Erwan TROEL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what should be the future of the web? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: SVG performance
mikh2161 wrote: --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Reid Priedhorsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As an example, I am pretty sure that your thousands or 10.000s of polylines could easily be reduced to a much smaller number of path elements. A single path element can represents several polylines, by using several M commands and greatly improve the performance. Unfortunately in my case not -- each polyline has its own individual identity and properties. (It is a mapping application, and the polylines are individual road segments which need to be drawn differently according to a variety of factors.) I'm not sure I follow exactly why you can't use a single path element. Could you give a better example? Here's an example: Park Ave. between 19th and 20th sts. has a surface quality rating of A and should be drawn in bright red. But, Park between 20th and 21st has a rating of B and should be drawn in a less bright red. HTH, Reid - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: SVG performance
Hi Andreas, I think you've summarized the arguments against Flash well. Here's some more of my thoughts on the subject. Andreas Neumann wrote: Flash might a short-term solution to your problem, but it requires a plugin, It does, but the plugin seems to be ubiquitous: 95% have version 7 already, and 36% have version 9 which is only a couple of months old. http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/version_penetration.html I'd be curious to see other numbers, though. its harder to generate, Do you mean that Adobe's tools are expensive payware? AFAICT, they are for = v8, but not for v9, and there are OSS tools (e.g. openlaszlo.org). dependent on a single company, Definitely true, but Adobe seems to be making a major commitment to the platform, so I don't think there's any trouble in the works for the forseeable future. less graphics features, etc. Seems true, though Flash 9 may have narrowed the gap to some degree. One solution might be to use alternatives (Java, Flash) now and later revisit the capabilities of the SVG viewers/ browsers. Yes, this is quite appealing. One possibility is OpenLaszlo, which will shortly be able to compile to both Flash and SVG, but I'm not sure that its graphics capabilities are featureful enough (it doesn't seem to be able to rotate text???). Take care, Reid - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: ajax or svg or flash or ...
Andreas Neumann wrote: well hopefully a combination of the first two: Ajax and SVG, its not an or, but an and. A typical Ajax application combines Javascript, DHTML and sometimes SVG/VML/Canvas. If the majority goes with flash, we'll end up with a binary only, inaccessible, vendor controlled web, with DRM all over the place. My understanding is that the openness of .swf is similar to that of PDF, i.e. it is well-documented and others are welcome to reimplement the spec. There do seem to be serious OSS projects to create .swf content (e.g. OpenLaszlo), but I don't know about OSS Flash players. Adobe's tools do seem to be better, and their basic Flash 9 tools are free-as-in-beer. The snazzy ones are for-pay. HTH, Reid - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: SVG performance
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Reid Priedhorsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's an example: Park Ave. between 19th and 20th sts. has a surface quality rating of A and should be drawn in bright red. But, Park between 20th and 21st has a rating of B and should be drawn in a less bright red. HTH, Reid You can create a single path element for all bright red streets, and a single path element for all less bright reds. Paths don't need to be continuous. It's OK for a path to be broken apart into pieces that skip about. For instance, to draw two parallel lines (that never touch or intersect) using a single path element you would use the following: path d=M 0 0 L 0 5 M 5 0 L 5 5 / - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: SVG performance
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, T Rowley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: are certainly known areas where things will be slow. Also keep in mind that I haven't seriously used the SVG code shipped in Firefox 1.5 and 2.0 for over a year now. The trunk code I work with has different performance characteristics. Tim In general does this mean that bugs should only be reported against Minefield? The performance on windows is definitely better in Minefield by the way - thanks. Bruce - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG performance
On 11/6/06 1:58 PM, brucerindahl wrote: --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, T Rowley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: are certainly known areas where things will be slow. Also keep in mind that I haven't seriously used the SVG code shipped in Firefox 1.5 and 2.0 for over a year now. The trunk code I work with has different performance characteristics. In general does this mean that bugs should only be reported against Minefield? The performance on windows is definitely better in Minefield by the way - thanks. We'll look at bugs for both, but we're much more conservative about what will go into the 2.0.x releases. Security and crash fixes are easy to get in, but others will involve benefit/risk judgment. -tor - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: SVG performance
Hi Reid, I am sort of sick to discuss swf vs. svg again and again. It was discussed on this list a thousand times. Nevertheless I answer to some of your arguments: Flash might a short-term solution to your problem, but it requires a plugin, It does, but the plugin seems to be ubiquitous: 95% have version 7 already, and 36% have version 9 which is only a couple of months old. http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/ version_penetration.html I'd be curious to see other numbers, though. and what if Microsoft stops to bundle the Flash Player with Internet Explorer because it doesn't like Adobes competition and it believes that its own XML solution is the way to go? In that case the 95 percent penetration would suddenly drop to 30% percent or so, whereas SVG will be natively supported in all major browsers. its harder to generate, Do you mean that Adobe's tools are expensive payware? AFAICT, they are for = v8, but not for v9, and there are OSS tools (e.g. openlaszlo.org). I think many of the Adobe products are reasonably priced, at least for most of richer countries, certainly too expensive for poorer countries. Definitely true, but Adobe seems to be making a major commitment to the platform, so I don't think there's any trouble in the works for the forseeable future. of course there is commitment from Adobe, because the more people develop for their format, the more are locked into their tools. Nothing from the open source or other companies comes close to Adobes product when it comes to editing/creating swf content, so its basically a lock-in. At least when you are a designer/multimedia creator. Its also not open, because others companies can't contribute to the development of the standard and there is no test suite. The only reference seems to be the Flash player. What the flash player does is right, if someone else disagrees, they are wrong. Of course the flash environment has its own advantages. There is no doubt, that the flash market is more mature, the flashplayer more performant and it has the much larger development community. But Flash is not accessible to a majority of the web, or can you easily search through a flash file, see how the author implemented it, copy parts of it, integrate easily with other W3C technology, reformat the content to have a different representation of the same content, apply multiple stylesheets to the same content, etc? Andreas - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: ajax or svg or flash or ...
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Erwan TROEL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DRM? DRM means Digital Rights Management. Means that authors can control whether users can have access to certain functionality, such as copying, printing, viewing, editing, etc. Andreas - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: ajax or svg or flash or ...
Reid Priedhorsky wrote: Andreas Neumann wrote: well hopefully a combination of the first two: Ajax and SVG, its not an or, but an and. A typical Ajax application combines Javascript, DHTML and sometimes SVG/VML/Canvas. If the majority goes with flash, we'll end up with a binary only, inaccessible, vendor controlled web, with DRM all over the place. My understanding is that the openness of .swf is similar to that of PDF, i.e. it is well-documented and others are welcome to reimplement the spec. The format could change tomorrow swf and pdf hell I would change both adding rendering filters, declarative animations and all kinds of glitzy stuff we see in SVG and if there were any viewers that started to look competitive I wouldnt have to do much just slip in a misc. change a subtle one or two which invalidates a chunk of those comp. tools and wait a few months or a year before documenting it and I would keep on doing this... adding things so they can slip far behind and adobe can say so what ours are the only tools important which deal with this... and they are probably right. Adobe changed a simple assumption on there pdf viewer version 7.0. it invalidated pdfs made by my companies software ... they threw an obscure error... it wasnt very debuggable. We ended up making a utility to fix these now broken pdfs (that worked perfectly fine in version six.) It wasnt a biggy as pdfs are not central to what we do. It wouldn't even be like the browser wars more like a slaughter There do seem to be serious OSS projects to create .swf content (e.g. OpenLaszlo), but I don't know about OSS Flash players. its a lack of the latter which is scariest Adobes SVG viewer fading into the distance with a whiffle has some very healthy replacements on the horizon Adobe's tools do seem to be better, and their basic Flash 9 tools are free-as-in-beer. beer isnt free where I come from... The snazzy ones are for-pay. And I like em... but - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG performance (swf vs. svg)
Now that Adobe has merged with Macromedia such that both SWF AND SVG are synonymous with Adobe, doesn't that muddy the waters of this debate? Andreas Neumann wrote: Hi Reid, I am sort of sick to discuss swf vs. svg again and again. It was discussed on this list a thousand times. Nevertheless I answer to some of your arguments: Flash might a short-term solution to your problem, but it requires a plugin, It does, but the plugin seems to be ubiquitous: 95% have version 7 already, and 36% have version 9 which is only a couple of months old. http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/ http://www.adobe.com/products/player_census/flashplayer/ version_penetration.html I'd be curious to see other numbers, though. and what if Microsoft stops to bundle the Flash Player with Internet Explorer because it doesn't like Adobes competition and it believes that its own XML solution is the way to go? In that case the 95 percent penetration would suddenly drop to 30% percent or so, whereas SVG will be natively supported in all major browsers. its harder to generate, Do you mean that Adobe's tools are expensive payware? AFAICT, they are for = v8, but not for v9, and there are OSS tools (e.g. openlaszlo.org). I think many of the Adobe products are reasonably priced, at least for most of richer countries, certainly too expensive for poorer countries. Definitely true, but Adobe seems to be making a major commitment to the platform, so I don't think there's any trouble in the works for the forseeable future. of course there is commitment from Adobe, because the more people develop for their format, the more are locked into their tools. Nothing from the open source or other companies comes close to Adobes product when it comes to editing/creating swf content, so its basically a lock-in. At least when you are a designer/multimedia creator. Its also not open, because others companies can't contribute to the development of the standard and there is no test suite. The only reference seems to be the Flash player. What the flash player does is right, if someone else disagrees, they are wrong. Of course the flash environment has its own advantages. There is no doubt, that the flash market is more mature, the flashplayer more performant and it has the much larger development community. But Flash is not accessible to a majority of the web, or can you easily search through a flash file, see how the author implemented it, copy parts of it, integrate easily with other W3C technology, reformat the content to have a different representation of the same content, apply multiple stylesheets to the same content, etc? Andreas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: SVG performance (swf vs. svg)
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, unkerjay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that Adobe has merged with Macromedia such that both SWF AND SVG are synonymous with Adobe, doesn't that muddy the waters of this debate? that was the mistake that people thought, that Adobe was synonym with Adobe. But it isn't. Adobe was one of the early supporters and had a very good implementation early on. The current situation is that Adobe heavily markets and supports swf across their product line while it sort of supports a subset of SVG in some of their products. At least they stilly support it at some places. If it weren't for customer demand they wouldn't support it at all. Andreas - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
