[svg-developers] IE9 and ASV
Hi I wonder if anyone has done any experimenting with IE9 and ASV. Certain features[1] in ASV are still more advanced than any other browser, leaving certain aspects of the SVG spec untestable among all these new-fangled browsers. (I'm hoping to put Windows 7 on one of my machines at the office, but just haven't had time yet!) Some questions for those in the know: 1. Any luck turning on and off ASV in IE9? 2. While IE8 does not yet support HSL color values (as in ), I assume (since that is defined in CSS3) that IE9 will. So, if one were running ASV in IE9, would IE9's support of HSL color values be inherited into ASV? That is, does ASV take its SVG color definitions from the IE platform, or since at the time of implementation, SVG's color definitions were more advanced than HTML's, would ASV override the browser's behavior here? Generally, I think that as versions of IE have improved and as bug fixes have been found, ASV seems to have been resilient enough to reflect those improvements, at least in realms of scripting, though that may have been illusory. 4. Are any of the fakeSMIL libraries still being actively maintained, and where would the best ones be? Has anyone done any testing on the proportion of animateable features that those libraries actually support. 5. Has anyone tested SVG 1.2 features in IE9? I'm thinking most obviously of , but vector effects would be rather handy too. 6. How about in IE9? Jeff's chart [2] doesn't seem to have a test for that one. I can't find one through the SVG WG either [3], though I will confess to having several years of accumulated befuddlement about how to find things there. 7. Do W3C requirements that there exist two stable implementations of something in order for something to become a recommendation mean that if implementations disappear then the recommendations will also? [dry humor intended -- I'm not quite sure of the actual language or the scope of this "two implementations doctrine" ] [1]Acknowledgedly these become rarer each year. [2] http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php [3] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Test_Suite_Overview - To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: IE9 and ASV
Hi David, --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "ddailey" wrote: > > Hi I wonder if anyone has done any experimenting with IE9 and ASV. Certain > features[1] in ASV are still more advanced than any other browser, I know I've asked before, I apologize for losing track of this, but can we get a list of features that ASV supports better than any other browser? Maybe we can maintain it on a wiki page or something. > 2. While IE8 does not yet support HSL color values (as in xlink:href="#two" stroke="hsl(180, 100%, 34%)" fill="hsl(220,100%,40%)" I don't understand this sentence. IE8 did not support SVG at all, so of course stroke="hsl(...)" would never have worked. Maybe you meant ASV? > /> ), I assume (since that is defined in CSS3) that IE9 will. So, I don't know that IE9 supports HSL. > were running ASV in IE9, would IE9's support of HSL color values be > inherited into ASV? That is, does ASV take its SVG color definitions from > the IE platform, or since at the time of implementation, SVG's color > definitions were more advanced than HTML's, would ASV override the browser's > behavior here? Generally, I think that as versions of IE have improved and > as bug fixes have been found, ASV seems to have been resilient enough to > reflect those improvements, at least in realms of scripting, though that may > have been illusory. I think you may have a general misunderstanding about how plugins work (no offense). The browser gives the plugin a box that it can draw into. The plugin gets the markup, interprets it, draws the results. Other than that, I don't think it interacts with the browser in any way. Also in ASV's case, ASV contains a (very old) JS interpreter based on Mozilla from the pre-Firefox 1.0 days. This means that its DOM and JavaScript support will also never improve (you will never gain support for querySelector, DOM Element Navigation, XMLHttpRequest, web sockets, etc). While it's true that ASV has support for proprietary Adobe technologies for making asynchronous network calls, audio, etc these will never be broadly supported across browsers as there are already alternatives being embraced in the browser landscape. That's why an unmaintained plugin is a dead end. There is no hope of it improving its level of feature support or getting bug fixes or it getting faster (unless you buy a faster computer). And continuing to write code that only works in that plugin is, frankly, a waste of time. > 4. Are any of the fakeSMIL libraries still being actively maintained, and > where would the best ones be? Has anyone done any testing on the proportion > of animateable features that those libraries actually support. There's only one FakeSmile library and, though it hasn't shown much activity in quite awhile, maybe someone will help improve it now that we know IE9 won't support SMIL. http://leunen.d.free.fr/fakesmile/ I don't really know the status of Doug's smilScript library. http://schepers.cc/svg/smilscript/ I've been told that FakeSmile has better SMIL support than smilScript, but I can't verify that. FakeSmile was recently included as part of the SVG Boilerplate by Robin Berjon despite it being improperly named there :) http://svgboilerplate.com/ Those are the only two alternatives that I'm really aware of. > 5. Has anyone tested SVG 1.2 features in IE9? I'm thinking most obviously of > , but vector effects would be rather handy too. I'm very doubtful that these are supported. As far as I know: - only Opera supports - only Opera and WebKit support vector-effect='non-scaling-stroke' I'd be happy to be wrong here. > 6. How about in IE9? Jeff's chart [2] doesn't seem to have a > test for that one. I can't find one through the SVG WG either [3], though I > will confess to having several years of accumulated befuddlement about how > to find things there. My chart is simply a reflection of running the W3C SVG 1.1 Test Suite, so although it's maybe "my chart", the tests are not :) Best bet is to write a simple HTML-in-foreignObject test that works in the other browsers and see if it works in IE9. My guess is that it will (since HTML is supported, it should be semi-trivial to support foreignObject for that content type). Hope that helps - sorry for the preachin' ;) Jeff - To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this gro
[svg-developers] A pleasant surprise
I was pleased to find that this example [1], of simulated cylindrical rotation, from [2] is now working in these browsers: IE/ASV Opera (9.5 or newer) FF (4.0 b) Safari (5.02) and Chrome (6.0) At the time of its creation just 2.5 years (and 0.5 dimensions) ago it only worked in two of these five browsers. Using filters and SMIL animation, it is only 52 lines and <1800 keystrokes and at least 15 of the lines and 300 of those keystrokes are not really needed for basic perceptual functionality!. As all who have used or can testify, productivity = 1/keystrokes.* cheers David [1] http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGOpen2008/barberPole.svg [2] http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/SVGOpen2008/edges_of_plausibility.htm *okay, maybe I'm exaggerating: there might be the rare fraction of folks who would disagree, and such personality variation helps to keep the world interesting. - To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] obscure things like
I successfully tested my freshly written path data parser against the paths found in the "paths-data-##-t.svg" files of the 1.2 Tiny test suite. But I wonder whether I also have to take into account obscure things like I tested it with Firefox, Opera, Chrome, Batik/Squiggle, librsvg and Inkscape. Only Chrome does not render it. If a path like this is legal, I think there should be a test case in the test suite, shouldn't it? Thomas W. - To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: IE9 and ASV
Hi Jeff, Yes, I'm sure my understanding of how plugins work is flawed. ;) So you're saying that if IE8/ASV didn't support HSL, it will never in IE9/ASV, since ASV would have had no way to draw on that context from the browser base environment. No I didn't know that plugins were thusly limited. I thought I had seen evidence to the contrary, but, as I said, that may have been illusory and I can't point to an example. And no by IE8 I didn't mean IE8/ASV. IE8 doesn't seem to support HSL in HTML either. hello That's why I was asking; sorry if that wasn't clear. And yes, we should assemble that list one day.. mostly has to do with some known bugs in Opera, some fringe cases involving complex filter chains, intersecting clipPaths, and fancy glyphs that involve content other than simple paths.The places in my work that use asterisks are usually the places where only ASV works, though some of those are now working in Opera and some never got rewritten to transcend the getters and setters days. It would take several days to work through the thousand or so examples to find the few dozen that I'm aware of. And no, not even I would advocate for folks to jump on the IE/ASV bandwagon! It is nice, though to have a second and sometimes a first browser in which to be able to test SVG code against our understandings of the spec, so the questions about backing in and out of ASV from IE still are relevant to me until the lesser implementations mature a bit, which thankfully they are, though it still may be a couple of years based on what we've seen in the last two years. And until Windows 7 is widely deployed, for the 60% of the world using IE (not an insignificant number to my way of thinking) the question of what to do with those folks who don't have IE9 remains. SVG support doesn't seem to be adequately handled by the other options (remember that IE/ASV developers have been gleefully working with the assumptions of filter and SMIL support for almost a decade now in corporate settings where the MS environment is deeply deployed). By fakeSMIL I meant to use some sort of generic term like fauxSMIL, and was meaning to include Doug's stuff as well. Thanks for the references to both, as I will be needing that info soon for another purpose! So most of my questions are, alas, still open. I had read a suggestion [1] , though that suggested IE9 doesn't support foreignObject which would be a shame since that is a good way to work around the need to embed SVG in HTML wrappers to have access to HTML . Having to drop SVG into an HTML wrapper each time one wants to be able to examine source code of a dynamic document is a veritable nuisance! In terms of preachin', Jeff, that's cool. I'll hope to resist the temptation to preach back at ya' since there may be some fundamental idealogical differences afoot here! cheers, David [1] http://schmerg.com/svg-support-in-ie9-close-but-should-try-harde - Original Message - From: jeff_schiller To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 4:53 PM Subject: [svg-developers] Re: IE9 and ASV Hi David, --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "ddailey" wrote: > > Hi I wonder if anyone has done any experimenting with IE9 and ASV. Certain > features[1] in ASV are still more advanced than any other browser, I know I've asked before, I apologize for losing track of this, but can we get a list of features that ASV supports better than any other browser? Maybe we can maintain it on a wiki page or something. > 2. While IE8 does not yet support HSL color values (as in xlink:href="#two" stroke="hsl(180, 100%, 34%)" fill="hsl(220,100%,40%)" I don't understand this sentence. IE8 did not support SVG at all, so of course stroke="hsl(...)" would never have worked. Maybe you meant ASV? > /> ), I assume (since that is defined in CSS3) that IE9 will. So, I don't know that IE9 supports HSL. > were running ASV in IE9, would IE9's support of HSL color values be > inherited into ASV? That is, does ASV take its SVG color definitions from > the IE platform, or since at the time of implementation, SVG's color > definitions were more advanced than HTML's, would ASV override the browser's > behavior here? Generally, I think that as versions of IE have improved and > as bug fixes have been found, ASV seems to have been resilient enough to > reflect those improvements, at least in realms of scripting, though that may > have been illusory. I think you may have a general misunderstanding about how plugins work (no offense). The browser gives the plugin a box that it can draw into. The plugin gets the markup, interprets it, draws the results. Other than that, I don't think it interacts with the browser in any way. Also in ASV's case, ASV contains a (very old) JS interpreter based on Mozilla from the pre-Firefox 1.0 days. This means that its DOM and JavaScript support
[svg-developers] Re: IE9 and ASV
Hi David, --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "ddailey" wrote: > > And until Windows 7 is widely deployed, for the 60% of the world using IE > (not an insignificant number to my way of thinking) the question of what to > do with those folks who don't have IE9 remains. SVG support doesn't seem to > be adequately handled by the other options (remember that IE/ASV developers > have been gleefully working with the assumptions of filter and SMIL support > for almost a decade now in corporate settings where the MS environment is > deeply deployed). I'm curious if Google Chrome Frame plugin meets that purpose? WebKit is supporting more and more SVG Filters and SMIL these days and is actively being updated. Regards, Jeff - To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: IE9 and ASV
Yes, I am quite impressed by the rapid progress that WebKit seems to be making, and recently! Also, if I heard Alex Danilo right at SVGOpen, Abbra will be introducing a new SVG plugin for IE, and soon. Did I hear that right? cheers David - Original Message - From: jeff_schiller To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2010 8:08 PM Subject: [svg-developers] Re: IE9 and ASV Hi David, --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "ddailey" wrote: > > And until Windows 7 is widely deployed, for the 60% of the world using IE (not an insignificant number to my way of thinking) the question of what to do with those folks who don't have IE9 remains. SVG support doesn't seem to be adequately handled by the other options (remember that IE/ASV developers have been gleefully working with the assumptions of filter and SMIL support for almost a decade now in corporate settings where the MS environment is deeply deployed). I'm curious if Google Chrome Frame plugin meets that purpose? WebKit is supporting more and more SVG Filters and SMIL these days and is actively being updated. Regards, Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my membership" Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: svg-developers-dig...@yahoogroups.com svg-developers-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: svg-developers-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
