[svg-developers] Re: Adobe/Macromedia

[Randy George]

Hi,

 

I'm catching up on all the svg postings and a bit surprised at
the viability concerns.

 

In the larger picture the obvious trend is toward open standards. Corporate
enterprise has suddenly discovered open source and open source thrives on
open standards. The first generation of standalone software has reached its
peak and now the next generation of internet services is just beginning to
take off, enabled in large part by XML. 

 

First generation software companies like Microsoft, Adobe, Oracle, Autodesk.
are rightly concerned about next generation trends but are locked into a
balancing act with older revenue models. In the short term the first
generation is still struggling for dominance among themselves, but in the
long term they surely see the real question is how to survive the transition
into a fully connected world where revenue models look more like Google than
boxed software and annual per seat licensing. Software as web service is the
rising tide, Open Source is the long term competitor, and the standards that
give open source a foot in the door also appear threatening. 

 

It is interesting to remember how a company like IBM completely renovated
itself by emphasizing its intellectual capital and embracing service
solutions instead of product. First generation software companies are all
facing a similar dilemma and realize that long term survival will depend on
some kind of remake revolving around a fully connected world economy.
Control is already slipping out of their hands only moments after they
achieved dominance in the previous generation. It remains to be seen which
are paranoid enough to be major players in 10 years, but the bottom line is
that survivors will be forced into the open standards world they currently
find threatening. 

 

Adobe hires smart people, they know that MS Xaml/Metro is their immediate
threat, but I'm sure they are also wondering how to reconcile flash/pdf with
svg/fo. In the end they have to know XML wins, so there is little incentive
to abandon svg, though they may be tempted to adapt it ala Xaml. Any which
way XML makes it an open world from a developer's point of view.

 

The adoption of svg-t in the mobile arena, the release of native svg in
Firefox and Opera all indicate the health of open XML standards. The pent up
demand for internet vector graphics will continue to grow and open standards
that allow world wide connectivity have a bright future.

 

In the meantime we all just try to make a living :-)

 

randy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)

[Randy George]

Hi Leonard,

Why is being in XML better?

Perhaps because of Sax, Xerces, Xalan, JDom, SOAP, MSXML, XSLT,
XPath   or perhaps simply because I can read the file and grab what I
want/need?

I am myself wondering whether it makes that much difference how
something becomes a standard w3c, ANSI, ISO, or common use, just as long as
I can read it, process it, and hand it down stream. XML helps in the
reading/processing and open standards help in the passing downstream. So
Firefox and Opera adopting svg is great for passing vectors along as is the
IE ASV.

Xaml, Metro will be xml so I can probably read and process but only
pass downstream to part of the MS world that upgrades, but as XML it can at
least be XSLTd to the other part of the world.

.pdf .shp .swf .dxf are published formats but hard to read/process
though easy enough to hand downstream since they are common usage standards.

I imagine developers like the fact that XML makes reading/processing
easier.

Thanks
randy

 

-Original Message-
From: Leonard Rosenthol [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:27 PM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)

[The following statement is somewhat heretical on this mailing list, but
that's never stopped me before ;)]


> Adobe hires smart people, they know that MS Xaml/Metro is their immediate
> threat, but I'm sure they are also wondering how to reconcile flash/pdf
> with svg/fo. In the end they have to know XML wins, so there is little
> incentive to abandon svg, though they may be tempted to adapt it ala Xaml.

> Any which way XML makes it an open world from a developer's point of view.
> 

Why does a file format/specification simply being based on XML make
it better than one that isn't?  

Let's take Metro and PDF, for example - since you mentioned both
above.

Metro/XPS is a published (open?) specification from Microsoft that
just happens to be based on XML.  However, it is controlled by MSFT, though
they have SUGGESTED publication by OASIS - which is different than
acceptance via a standards-body process.

PDF is a published (open?) specification originally from Adobe that
is not based on XML.   However, PDF has been adopted as the basis for a
series of standards from the International Standards Organization (ISO)
including ISO 15930, PDF/X and ISO 19005, PDF/A.   That makes it TOTALLY
OPEN and INTERNATIONALLY approved.

What more do you want?


Leonard



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RE: [svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re: Adobe/Macromedia)

[Randy George]

Hi Leonard,

Good post!

You are right xml doesn't work for raster bits, but it sure is nice to have
xml metadata with the ability to embed raster rather than ntif, tfw, geotiff
parameter headaches on top of the innumerable raster variations. XML also
won't work for audio/video bits but again it is a very nice framework for
wrapping the binary bit/streams with accessible metadata.

>>  .pdf .shp .swf .dxf are published formats but hard to read/process
>>
>   For whom?  Using what tools?

You mean one set of tools for .pdf, + another for .shp, + another for .swf,
+ another for .dxf , + .dwg, + .dwf, + .e00, + .tab, +  ? unfortunately
the series is infinite and not asymptotic. 
I guess I'm too old to learn all the old tricks let alone the new ones :) I
believe MS must be tired too, at least they're steering toward open water
XML.

thanks
randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Leonard Rosenthol
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:17 PM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Re: Why is being in XML better? (was Re:
Adobe/Macromedia)

>   Perhaps because of Sax, Xerces, Xalan, JDom, SOAP, MSXML, XSLT,
> XPath   or perhaps simply because I can read the file and grab what I
> want/need?
> 
More specifically, because you can use the tools you ALREADY KNOW...

There are similar tools for many of those things for other formats -
you just don't know about them ;).


>   I am myself wondering whether it makes that much difference how
> something becomes a standard w3c, ANSI, ISO, or common use, just as long
> as I can read it, process it, and hand it down stream. 
>
Agreed.

> XML helps in the
> reading/processing and open standards help in the passing downstream.
>
Yes and no.  

I've seen XML grammars that are more complicated than the
alternative, thus making it harder to read/process...


>   .pdf .shp .swf .dxf are published formats but hard to read/process
>
For whom?  Using what tools?


Leonard




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RE: [svg-developers] SVG Maps

[Randy George]

Hi,

I'm sure there are quite a few on this list that have experience in SVG
Geographic Maps. GIS is one area where vector rendering is important and
there has been a lot of activity in that area.

Randy George
www.web-maps.com

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lgore_sc
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2005 11:53 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] SVG Maps

Does anyone have experience with producing SVG Geographic Maps? 
Minimal, Moderate, advanced?






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RE: [svg-developers] Is Adobe abandoning SVG?

[Randy George]

Hi Andrew,

I also like to remember that declarative XML graphics is not in
doubt, just which one. Along the Opera, FireFox, (Renesis?) margins is SVG,
but MS Xaml definitely forces the issue. If Adobe is to survive the MS
Metro/Xaml onslaught it will have to quickly adapt its pdf/flash to embrace
some kind of XML whether home grown or open standard. 

Nice thing about XML though, is that parsing transcoding tools are
easy enough to build, so that regardless of what XML the target rendering
engine accepts, all the other XML dialects can take advantage of the
rendering with only the performance hit of transcoding.

I would still vote for SVG in the long run, but won't be too worried
if Xaml turns out the mainstay in the MS world. A web service can provide
either SVG or Xaml output depending on the client making the request. It
does complicate delivery, but doesn't present the barrier to entry that a
proprietary or unpublished format does.

Rumors about a pending Google purchase of Opera stir the pot even
more. I still think that svg-t mobile will be the leverage point for svg.
Xaml will be way too late to capture that market and a Firefox(opensource),
Opera(Google), mobile svg-t triumvirate would force a lot of Xaml to svg
transcoding in web services. Adobe looks to be the distant 3rd player with
just a flashXML, unless they decide to throw their lot in with the non-MS
world and adapt flash to work interchangeably with open standard svg.

Again just a bystander's opinion.

Randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 5:37 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Is Adobe abandoning SVG?

 
Geoffrey,
 
Adobe "gave up" on SVG around the end of 2001. No, it didn't give up on SVG

completely but it did cut back its effort in a major way. If my memory
serves 
me  correctly ASV3 came out around November 2001. 
 
Compare what Adobe did from 1999-2001 with SVG against what it has done in  
the last 4 years. And then you will likely see why I say that Adobe "gave
up" 
on  SVG a long time ago.
 
Adobe's actions (or failures to act) at that time seriously damaged the  
momentum behind SVG. It could, potentially, have destroyed SVG but it
didn't.
 
A commonly asked question is why did Adobe push SVG forward (which it did)  
then "pull the plug" on SVG. The best explanation/suggestion that I know is

that Adobe saw SVG as a strategic threat to PDF (which, as far as I am
aware,  
Adobe owns).
 
Will Adobe "give up" **completely** on SVG in the near future? I doubt it.  
Will Adobe ever completely support all of SVG? I doubt that too, but that is

simply a guess.
 
The good thing is that the damage resulting from Adobe's failures to  act 
from 2001 to 2005 in further developing implementations of SVG, has
stimulated 
others to pick up the torch. The plus side is that SVG is  no longer a
"single 
company" technology (not that it ever was, strictly  speaking). 
 
But SVG, although having been damaged by Adobe's inaction, is in better  
shape now than I have seen it for a very long time. 
 
For example, the FireFox SVG implementation (although far from complete)  
gives a base for genuine cross-platform SVG support. I very much hope that
the  
Mozilla Foundation really puts effort and resources into taking forward the

Firefox SVG implementation.
 
On the other hand, SVG has a more impressive potential competitor on the  
horizon than it has had up to now. I am referring to Microsoft's XAML and
the  
Sparkle Designer. I am guessing that that is, say, 18 months off from
release  
but it has, in my opinion, enormous potential. Currently Windows only as far
as 
 I am aware. So it's not a direct competitor to Firefox SVG. 
 
What does SVG need? Others are better placed than I currently am to make  
specific suggestions. I think one of the crucial things is a
design/development  
tool that makes creating SVG easier for designers/programmers. That's where
I 
see Microsoft as having a particularly strong tool in Sparkle - it gives a  
design environment that allows designing and programming to work  
synergistically. To the best of my knowledge SVG hasn't had such a tool. In
my  opinion it 
needs one. 99% (at a guess) of the people who could  develop/design with SVG

won't have the time to hand code.
 
All the above is my opinion. YMMV.
 
Andrew Watt
 
In a message dated 13/12/2005 18:46:58 GMT Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I just  installed the ASV 6 beta (from  
http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/beta.html )
and it looks really  good. The antialiasing looks better, and some 
helpful features like  cursors are implemented.

The shadow filter I am using looks cleaner as  well. 

But since the BETA is 2.5 years old, it looks like Adobe's work  has 
ground to a halt. As kewl as SVG is, is Adobe giving up on  it?


 


[Non-text portions of thi

RE: [svg-developers] SVG and MapServer

[Randy George]

Hi Ben,

You might look at GeoServer
http://docs.codehaus.org/display/GEOS/Home which is a Java based OWS server
similar to MapServer, but with more explicit OpenGIS conformance. GeoServer
WMS provides a format="image/svg+xml" for request=GetMap. It works with a
variety of datastores ArcSDE, Oracle, PostGIS, shape, MySQL, VPF Library 

The GeoServer WFS presently only supports:
- 
   
   
   
  
but GML can be translated to SVG without much trouble.


-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Ben
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 8:34 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] SVG and MapServer

Hi all,

Anyone had any experience with using SVG within OpenSource MapServer? 
If so, are there any sites/information out there that is useful? I've 
tried the MapServer webpage which is useful but doesn't have any SVG 
examples...

Regards
Ben Crane






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RE: [svg-developers] SVG and Web Mapping Servers

[Randy George]

Hi Ben,

Yes you can simply write your own interface to your geo datastore
using php or any other server side approach. However, using an OWS, OpenGIS
Web Service , gets you a couple of things. 

1) Decouples your interface from the data store ie you can switch between
arcSDE, PostGIS, MySQL, Oracle .. (someday Smallworld)  without much effort

2) A simple standards based interface which you don't have to develop
yourself. i.e. WMS serves up standard image formats that you can plug
directly into html or svg. For example
http://onearth.jpl.nasa.gov/wms.cgi?request=GetMap&layers=modis&srs=EPSG:432
6&width=600&height=600&bbox=-110,35,-105,40&format=image/jpeg&styles=&zoom= 

Plug this url into your browser address and you will see the image returned
by JPL's WMS. Add this to an  element to
see it inside svg.

I think GeoServer  is easier to
use than MapServer for vector datastores, but I believe the performance for
WMS is better with UMN MapServer. GeoServer includes format="image/svg+xml"
Of course WFS is more interesting for svg interfaces.

There are a lot of articles on the subject at the OGC site and the GeoServer
Wiki . Here is
another article that is a simple overview
http://www.cadmaps.com/WebServices.htm including svg. (sorry, shameless
plug)
Here is an experimental svg interface to some popular public OWS services
http://www.web-maps.com/OWS/ (unfortunately ASV IE only)

rkgeorge

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Ben
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 8:10 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] SVG and Web Mapping Servers

Firstly, 

Thank you for the pointers to PostGIS/PostgreGIS...I've download the 
installers and will have a crack at playing around with it.

One issue though: I'm slightly confused to the point of a web mapping 
server. I understand it's an engine that is used to send data to the 
browser but from the examples I have seem using postgis and mysql; 
the data is stored in the database and fetched with each request? Why 
not use a simple php/mysql setup with the geometry data stored in 
mysql?

Can anyone help me out. I think I'm missing a crucial piece of the 
puzzle. So far I have:

1. PHP (server side scripting) interacts with the database
2. Mysql/PostgreGIS/PostGIS store geometry (is this basic text or a 
physical object?)
3. Web Mapping engine controls this interface.

Right or wrong? Is there any definitive articles on the basics of 
this process? I do want to keep loads and loads of spatial data in a 
database and then request segments to the web seamlessly.

Thanx
Ben








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[svg-developers] re: KML to SVG

[Randy George]

Hi,

 

Has anyone done some work on a KML to SVG transcoder or XSLT? 

 

Thanks

rkgeorge



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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RE: [svg-developers] Interesting interview with Miguel de Icaza cofounder of gnome

[Randy George]

Hi,

I went to a MS developer event last week where Windows Presentation
Framework i.e. xaml was presented. There were three critical advances that I
see with the MS technology in order of importance:

1. uses hardware graphics rendering - DirectX in place of GDI - performance
is improved a hundred fold over current svg rendering

2. 3D - in the 80%/20% rule svg loses the 20% where 3D is important

3. builtin widgets of all kinds - drop down lists, buttons, tabs ...

OSS mozilla, Linux etc can probably match on 1 and 3 but SVG would need to
be extended to address 2

Slashdot article mentioned problems with WPF/xaml and hardware. Not all PCs
will be able to use the advanced rendering capability in Vista and there
will probably be a fall back to something less.

I guess its about time html is superceded and I imagine that mozilla, opera,
... will need to address the xaml threat by offering equivalent capability.
I don't see that it would be a huge problem unless there are insurmountable
IP legal issues. Technology wise xaml could be transformed to SVG and
rendered in current rendering mode and a xaml renderer could be added using
Linux widgets. The eventual issue with svg appears to be 2D versus 3D in my
view. SVG appears to be achieving common denominator standardization but in
a couple of years xaml will start to supercede it unless svg adapts along
the way.

It sounds like Vista is out in 2007 sometime and even though there is a
downloadable WPF for legacy XP, win2000+ it seems unlikely that xaml
capability will be widespread until 2008 so Open Source Software has about
two years to work on equivalent capability.

My gut feeling is that MS has peaked and that the commercial world will not
as readily fall into line behind Vista. If the Web2.0 thing takes off the OS
will be less and less important. The majority of users worldwide will simply
have an internet device and need little more. However that device will
probably need to render a xaml equivalent (SVG3D?).

rkgeorge

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Doug Schepers
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:36 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Interesting interview with Miguel de Icaza
cofounder of gnome

Hi-

mobiform wrote:
| 
[...Miguel de Icaza:]
| Longhorn has kind of a scary technology called Avalon, 
| which when compounded with another technology called XAML,
| it's fairly dangerous. And the reason is that they've 
| made it so it's basically an HTML replacement. 
| The advantage is it's probably as easy as writing HTML, 
| so that means that anybody can produce this content 
| with a text editor. 
|
| So we see that as a very big danger. A lot of people today 
| cannot migrate to Linux or cannot migrate to Mozilla because a lot 
| of their internal Web sites happen to use IE extensions. 
| Now imagine a world where you can only use XAML.
| 
| It's massive - I'm so scared

Don't be scared, Miguel... WICD (a killer combination of SVG and XHTML) will
be much more familiar to more authors, and as an open standard, will be far
more widespread in terms of multiple browser/OS support... it will even run
on phones. You needn't fear XAML.

(For what it's worth, "wicked" sounds much cooler than "zammel", too. :)


I do agree that XAML is attempting to threaten the stability and openness of
the Web, though... thanks for pointing that out, Ron. We all need to be
diligent in promoting open standards. As usual, MS will embrace and extend
the work of others, and will try to cash in on FUD; luckily, Apple, Mozilla,
and various standards bodies (both commercial mobile concerns and government
organizations) are building on and standing by W3C standards rather than
succumb to Microsoft's manipulations.

Regards-
Doug

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.



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RE: [svg-developers] Coordinate systems in SVG Mapping / GIS

[Randy George]

Hi Bill,

 I have generally just used geographic coordinates with -y, which
implies you have control of the svg creation. 
Using a universal transform of scale(1,-1) will work on svg outside
of your control, but creates problems with the text rendering inverted. (As
long as there's not text it works fine.)

Rkgeorge
www.cadmaps.com

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bill Thoen
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:35 AM
To: svg-developers
Subject: [svg-developers] Coordinate systems in SVG Mapping / GIS


I've recently gotten re-interested in SVG mapping after experimenting with
Firefox 1.5's built-in SVG support, but I've always found fitting map
coordinates to the SVG system (x-coordinates increases from left to right
and y-coordinates increase from top to bottom) to be somewhat problematic.
What do people think is the best way to transform coordinates from
real-world to SVG?

Do you convert geographic coordinates to local coordinates (like screen
pixels or twips, etc. where the Y-coordinate increase to the south), or do
you keep the geographic units unchanged but just reverse the y-axis by
multiplying by -1, or do you perform a local transform on the y-axis so
that you can use the unmodified geographic coordinates in SVG directly, or
what?
 
The choice impacts things like coordinate tracking or text placement, and
other features that you may want to support in an online map presentation.
I also wonder about issues like whether it's more efficient with GML paths
to compress floating point coordinates to integers. Looking around the
'net, I see examples of all sorts of coordinate-transforming techniques in
SVG maps, so is there any consensus on the "best" method, and why?

So does anyone here have any opinions about the pros and cons of the
various ways people convert geographic coordinates into SVG coordinates?

- Bill Thoen







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RE: [svg-developers] Re: How to connect the database into a svg document

[Randy George]

Hi,

You might check with these folks: http://www.savagesoftware.com/

They have a good handle on CAD DWG to svg/xml. I think the problem
may be which database technology are the DWG files using, internal objects
or external links. Some AutoCAD files make use of a db like Oracle to back
their graphics attributes and some use internal objects that are part of the
dwg itself. As I recall dxf can be used to get at some types of object
attributes. That would be an easier translate process. 

Having a lot of feature attributes in svg might not be a good idea
though, so the better solution is to translate an id link to each feature
and add an external database to the solution. (which is why AutoCAD
provides for that type of linkage as well) Unfortunately this is a bit of
custom effort loading the attributes to something like MySQL,
PostgreSQL, and then writing server code to tie together the svg id and
the db table id. Svg becomes just one more view part of MVC. The model is
your db and you need to supply the controller part in an http server.

rkgeorge

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Robert Russell
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 5:44 PM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: How to connect the database into a svg
document

Hi, 
Looks like that question's been around for a while.
http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=554826&messageID=2981945

I haven't done dwg in a long time, but the last time I looked, AutoCAD
was the only one that had a complete implementation (being their
format and all). If you can get the same data into DXF format you
might have better luck. 



--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, suresh kumar
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> hai,
>I am new one for svg. I have dwg file with database.that i
want to convert into svg document with all datas.
>If i convert using adobe illustrator cs2, i cannot get datas in
svg tags.
>   How to convert it to svg with all datas?
>   or how to add a databse into a svg document?
>
>   After convertion what exactly i want to do is , when i mouse over
an entity datas should be display in a status bar or like that.
>
>   please send me a solution.
> 
>   
> -
>  Jiyo cricket on Yahoo! India cricket
> Yahoo! Messenger Mobile Stay in touch with your buddies all the time.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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RE: [svg-developers] SVG on Google Maps in FF

[Randy George]

Hi,

Interesting to see the difference in smoothness using the Google svg
enabled api in FF versus vml in IE.

Any idea if Google svg enabled api will be out of alpha/beta? Also
is there a link to api documentation for _mSvgEnabled = true;
It would be nice if google exposed more than just their own wrapper.

rkgeorge

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Andre M. Winter - Carto.net
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 6:29 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] SVG on Google Maps in FF

dragable polylines: , 
seen on 



-- 
___
andre m. winter,
  cartography for internet and multimedia applications
  schiessstand 4/1, a6091 goetzens, tyrol, austria
  tel.: ++43.5234.32732
  email: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

new svg book with actual scripting samples out now!
 check




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RE: [svg-developers] SVG on Google Maps in FF

[Randy George]

Hi Andre,

I've experimented around with the google image stack and it appears
that Google uses a simple world mercator centered on Greenwich for all of
their map stacks: satellite, map, and hybrid.
/* WGS84 */
 double a  = 6378137.00;//meters equatorial radius
 double e = 0.0818188107; // eccentricity   

At least world mercator lines up very well in the Middle East where I was
checking. I can overlay vehicle locations in lat,long over an svg 
element containing a google tile and get good alignment with the roads using
the above world merc parameters.
http://kh.google.com/kh?v=3&t=trtsqtqsqqqt

Working out the tile spiral from the Google image string
(t=trtsqtqsqqqt)location is a bit more work.
http://www.cadmaps.com/gisblog.htm#quadtree

rkgeorge

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Andre M. Winter - Carto.net
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 10:07 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] SVG on Google Maps in FF

hi randy,

Google and documentation of what they do are two pairs of shoes :-( 
their version 1 API was never documented far beyond the basics and their 
v2 API doc is worse. but it works... one point that may be helpful in 
the future are their attempts of allowing the insert of custom HTML data 
in DIVs that lay over the map. having such an interface should allow us 
to write SVG directly to the map canvas. the main issue here is the 
(undocumented) used projection.

so far Google Maps and SVG are experiments that are only documented in 
their discussion group at 
<http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Maps-API/>. the general entry 
point for developments around google maps are 
<http://www.econym.demon.co.uk/googlemaps/> and <http://www.mapki.com/>

-- 
___
andre m. winter,
  cartography for internet and multimedia applications
  schiessstand 4/1, a6091 goetzens, tyrol, austria
  tel.: ++43.5234.32732
  email: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

new svg book with actual scripting samples out now!
 check    <http://svg.carto.net/>



Randy George wrote:
> Hi,
>
>   Interesting to see the difference in smoothness using the Google svg
> enabled api in FF versus vml in IE.
>
>   Any idea if Google svg enabled api will be out of alpha/beta? Also
> is there a link to api documentation for _mSvgEnabled = true;
>   It would be nice if google exposed more than just their own wrapper.
>
> rkgeorge
>
> -Original Message-
> From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Andre M. Winter - Carto.net
> Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 6:29 AM
> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [svg-developers] SVG on Google Maps in FF
>
> dragable polylines: <http://koti.mbnet.fi/ojalesa/exam/polylive.html>, 
> seen on 
>
<http://groups.google.com/group/Google-Maps-API/browse_thread/thread/9fe2a3a
> e60956c56/fb544c0c48231574>
>
>
>   





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RE: [svg-developers] Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Randy George]

Hi Geoffrey,

I agree with your analysis. Here's my soapbox for what its worth :)

Speaking honestly as a small independent developer, without an IE
option sticking with SVG is not really feasible, switching to Flash narrows
options and now also has a questionable life expectancy, while switching to
WFS-XAML is a painful but compelling opportunity to survive. 

In the long run rich client technology paves the way for web
services. MS is pulling out all stops to own the rich client technology
base. This could give them the competitive advantage in web services
analogous to OS ownership in the desktop hay day. MS would love to use their
waning OS advantage to leverage into rich client ownership before the window
of opportunity closes. MS is primarily concerned about the next generation
struggle for web services ownership, think Google. Though, I still wonder if
the XML factor reduces any competitive leverage MS hopes to gain.

Adobe should be highly commended for their early and extensive
support of SVG, but their long term survival is on the line. From their
point of view SVG was only a competitive advantage against Macromedia and
they found a different way to counter that threat. Adobe's ceiling is the
competitive world of MS and Google as they struggle for ownership of web
services. 

Vista/WFS-XAML is projected to be available about the same time as
ASV EOL (but then Bill has been wrong before). Alternative native browser
SVG is still not up to ASV capabilities and without some kind of IE option,
native SVG only reaches a small percentage of users. WFS-XAML will
eventually be available to the 80%+ of users on MS IE. Also, WFS-XAML
supercedes SVG in some critical ways: 3D, built in gui widgets, hardware
graphics speed, C#/CLR in place of EcmaScript. XAML will be a better rich
client base than SVG 1.2. Where is SVG 2.0 with 3D vectors, a built in set
of gui widgets,...? 

If MS is wrong about Vista release dates, there could be a gap for
rich client web development for IE between the EOL of ASV and the release of
WFS-XAML. An overlapping download option for ASV is the best solution from a
web developer perspective. From an Adobe perspective, attempting to force
svg rich client development to move to Flash before XAML appears makes some
sense. However, closing down ASV so quickly may have little effect other
than alienating a small community of developers and raising nagging
questions about Flash's viability as well.

As it turns out in 2 years Adobe/Flash could be gasping for air and
Flash developers should take note what Adobe policy has been toward the SVG
developer community. I imagine Adobe's bottom line strategic concern is
creation tools not rendering. Flash developers must likely plan for a
similar migration to XAML in just a few more years.

The Open source Mozilla community will also be forced to counter
WFS-XAML in some way in order to keep from being leapfrogged and then
marginalize. My guess is that XAML rendering in FF will quickly trump
further development of SVG rendering unless MS patents force some kind of
enhanced SVG. Otherwise MS creates a whole new rich client internet which is
off limits to the open source browser world. 

However you look at it, MS is in the driver's seat in 2007. If they
choose to transcode image/svg+xml to XAML, they could with very little
effort. But why would they support image/svg+xml at all? The Adobe/Flash
world and the FF,Opera/SVG world will both be playing catch up
technologically.

Ironically XML based rich clients are here to stay whether XAML or
SVG. Thin clients and fat clients look out!

rkgeorge

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Geoffrey Swenson
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 1:32 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

By abandoning SVG, the net effect for us and Adobe is that XAML is going to
be the way to go. 

 

Unless Adobe massively changes Flash to have a decent editor and improves
the ease of programming I just don't see it gaining a lot of developer
interest. Why should I pay almost $1000 for Flash and its tedious,
user-hostile graphic editor, the non-intuitive and overly animation-focused
timeline editor, when the same $1000 buys me the MSDN library including XAML
that was designed from the ground up to be a programmable graphical
environment?

 

If you don't have $1000 for MSDN, just Notepad and a good XAML book &&
online help should get you a long ways, especially for web-based stuff.

 

Microsoft can leverage their position as the largest software company to
make XAML a very complete solution in a way that nobody else can manage. I'm
sure that it will be, as usual, somewhat overdeveloped and bloated, but
since it is part of the graphical underpinnings of Vista, they must have got
it to work, unlike - for examp

RE: [svg-developers] Browser-based SVG rendering proof-of-concept

[Randy George]

Hi Kevin,

I think your system was down for awhile. It must have generated a
bit of interest :) This seems similar to the dojo approach Jon was
mentioning. I think OpenAjax is interesting, but these are all oriented to
lowest common denominator cross browser apps and appear primitive next to
pure SVG capabilities.

I am not very familiar with dojo but understand how this could be used for
cross browser static display, in the IE case as VML/DIV. Google maps api
uses VML for IE and SVG for FF for their path/pt overlays etc. MapBuilder's
OWS interface takes a similar tack for primitive map interaction. Possibly
they use the Zorn library. The question is how well VML/DIV supports events,
animation, full svg styling etc. I am still skeptical that it could approach
the same kind of rich client capability found in Adobe's ASV. VML seems
primitive by comparison. Google resorted to a rich client download for
Google Earth probably because of the obvious limitations found in
HTML/VML/SVG.

Even the current implementation of SVG rendering in FF is lacking in some of
these areas. Perhaps Opera has advanced further along the SVG1.1
implementation, but as it stands now I have a few applications that depend
on the ASV implementation of SVG as a minimum and are still waiting for FF
to catch up before it becomes a viable web app client. I don't yet see how
the Ajax/javascript approach could fill the vacuum left by ASV's sudden
demise.


Randy


-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kevin Lindsey
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:55 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Browser-based SVG rendering proof-of-concept

Hey folks,

A few months back, I was playing around with a kind of SAX-like SVG 
path parser I wrote years ago. The idea was to see if I could render 
SVG paths to various targets: div's (yes, that is crazy), flash, 
canvas, and VML. Given the recent discussion about ASV's demise (and 
from some prodding from Doug Schepers), I thought some folks might be 
interested to see a kind of proof of concept.

http://www.kevlindev.com/projects/jsdrawing/index.htm

Hopefully this can help folks see that there are options available to 
us until we get a replacement viewer in IE.

Kevin Lindsey
KevLinDev - http://www.kevlindev.com






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RE: [svg-developers] Re: Is w3c looking at svg 1.3-2.0?

[Randy George]

Hi,

On the imminent demise of Adobe's ASV option for IE/SVG

I think open source, web services, and Microsoft all see declarative
XML vector capability as the future of GUI for both the browser and the OS.
Possibly it's the slow speed of the w3c schema process that contributes to
the perception that SVG is inadequate. At any rate, Microsoft extended svg
to meet their needs with XAML, Google adopted their own client rendering for
Google Earth and KML, while the open source community is working with w3c
SVG. 

When I look at the lay of the land I see some missing features in SVG.
Microsoft 2007  OS/Browser  XAML3D graphics acceleration
widgets
GoogleEarth now Web service KML 3D graphics acceleration
Mozilla/Linux now   OS/Browser  SVG 2D cpu graphics
Opera now   Browser SVG 2D cpu graphics
AdobeASV farewell   Browser SVG 2D cpu graphics
Mobile now  Browser SVGt2D cpu graphics
Renesis.. future?   Browser SVG 2D hardware graphics
acceleration

It looks to me like 3D and hardware acceleration will become defacto
standards for rich clients sometime in late 2007. SVG1.2 adds some features
to help with widget libraries. Switching to a graphics accelerator library
could quickly close the gap on hardware acceleration, but 3D isn't as easily
handled. w3c SVG is still on draft SVG1.2. Is there work behind the scenes
on SVG 1.3-2.0? If not does Mozilla/Linux see a problem that may force them
to an extended SVG schema or even XAML?

Anyone else wondering about this?

Randy




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RE: [svg-developers] Re: 'Native' SVG support in Opera and FF

[Randy George]

Hi,

I think these are the settings to look at:

http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.0-doc/config/http.html

Two attributes are needed assuming you wish to add additional
mimetypes:
"compressableMimeType": The value is a comma separated list of MIME types
for which HTTP compression may be used. The default value is
text/html,text/xml,text/plain.
 

"compression": The Connector may use HTTP/1.1 GZIP compression in an attempt
to save server bandwidth. The acceptable values for the parameter is "off"
(disable compression), "on" (allow compression, which causes text data to be
compressed), "force" (forces compression in all cases), or a numerical
integer value (which is equivalent to "on", but specifies the minimum amount
of data before the output is compressed). If the content-length is not known
and compression is set to "on" or more aggressive, the output will also be
compressed. If not specified, this attribute is set to "off".
.
.
.
  

.
.
.

Randy 

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Larry Mason
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 10:05 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: 'Native' SVG support in Opera and FF

> for Apache this means for the
> .svgz extension:
> 
> Content-Type: image/svg+xml
> Content-Encoding: gzip
> 
Would anyone have the proper setting for Tomcat's web.xml ?
TIA,
Larry


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[svg-developers] RE: Opera svg and Tomcat

[Randy George]

Hi Larry,

 

I discovered something interesting about Tomcat while playing
with Opera svg/svgz. This may be of interest to others as well.

 

Tomcat sets mime types in its web.xml. 

 

1. If you have an older Tomcat web.xml it may contain some bogus svg mime
types:



svg

image/svg 

  



svgz

image/svg 



 

These need to be deleted for FF and Opera. This did not cause a problem in
ASV. Evidently Tomcat finds the last mime-type for a given extension key and
uses that for the header, which causes further problems seen below.

 

2. The default Tomcat download for windows lists svg mime types in this
order:



svg

image/svg+xml





svgz

image/svg+xml



 

Tomcat assigns the last listed mime-type for a given ext, which would seem
to be fine since ext 'svgz' is not the same as extension 'svg'. However, if
the 'svg' mime extension is listed first it seems to be overridden by the
'svgz' extension. In other words no matter if you have 'svg' files or 'svgz'
files Tomcat will treat it as 'svgz'. It sounds like an (ext.indexOf
("svg")!=-1) type of problem with Tomcat. If the 'svgz' mime type is deleted
then Opera gets the correct mimetype 'svg' from Tomcat and it will recognize
svg files. Vice versa is also true. Leaving in 'svgz' and taking out 'svg'
allows svgz files to be recognized properly.

 

3. The way I finally got both working was to reverse the mime type order
thus:



svgz

image/svg+xml

  



svg

image/svg+xml



This solved the problem for me and I can display both .svg and .svgz with no
problem in Opera.

 

4. Another approach was the Tomcat "compression" setting I referenced in an
earlier post. This has the nice feature of letting you forget about pre
compression into svgz. All svg will be automatically compressed after
whatever size threshold you set. However, there may be some minimal time
savings by using pre-compressed svgz files and keeping separate svg and svgz
mime-types.

 

Maybe this is old hat for Opera svg people but I had not run into this until
I started working with Opera.

 

Also important to note while experimenting "clear" the cache!

 

Randy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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RE: [svg-developers] Map servers

[Randy George]

Hi Barend,

Have you looked at Geoserver WFS? I know it's not especially
efficient but it is not much work to take the WFS GML stream and output svg.
In addition to control of style, javascript, and listeners this approach
lets you take advantage of all the backend spatial db drivers available in
the underlying Geotools api. The perennial problem with vector output is the
potentially overwhelming size of the output. Java's StaX JSR 173: Streaming
API for XML can help along with scale filtering.

SVG makes a great interface to OWS, because the raster WMS & WCS can
be layered in with WFS vectors allowing mix and match of all types of
services in the browser. 

If you have more time you could add an svg output driver in place of
Geoserver's GML. 

I look forward to your new RIMapper.

rkgeorge

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barend K ö bben
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 5:49 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Map servers

Hi,

Besides using a WMS that generates raster maps and include the rasters in
your SVG client, you can also use WMSes that output SVG. Eg. MapServer and
Geoserver can do this, but both implementations are so-so.

I am actually working on re-writing an SVG server-side application of ours
(java Servlets that use PostGIS or MySQL data to make SVG maps), to become
WMS compatible. I hope to have a first public beta somewhere next month, so
if you're interested, keep a lookout at http://kartoweb.itc.nl/RIMapper
(currently about the 'old' non-WMS compatible system).

Yours,
__ 
Barend Köbben
International Institute for Geo-information
Sciences and Earth Observation (ITC)
PO Box 6, 7500AA Enschede (The Netherlands)
ph: +31 (0)53 4874253; fax: +31 (0)53 4874335





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RE: [svg-developers] WMS into SVG

[Randy George]

Hi Pascal,

I don't see a transparent parameter in your uri. You might try
adding one to see if that helps. Not all wms servers will default to
transparent=true.
For example:
http://www.geocommunicator.gov/wmsconnector/com.esri.wms.Esrimap?Service=WMS
&Version=1.1.1&ServiceName=BLM_BASEMAPS_wms&request=GetMap&layers=blm_admin_
area_boundaries,usfs_forests_boundaries&format=image/png&transparent=TRUE&sr
s=EPSG:4326&bbox=-126,24,-66,50&WIDTH=1000&HEIGHT=433

I have had no problems using layers of  elements transparent png in
svg with IE+ASV or Firefox. Svg is actually quite a nice way to interface to
OWS services since svg can easily overlay multiple image elements from
WMS,WCS with vectors from WFS.


http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/DTD/svg10.dtd"; >
http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink";
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"; zoomAndPan="magnify">



  http://mesonet.agron.iastate.edu/cgi-bin/wms/nexrad/n0r.cgi?Serv
ice=WMS&Version=1.1.1&request=GetMap&layers=nexrad-n0r&forma
t=image/png&transparent=TRUE&srs=EPSG:4326&bbox=-126,24,-66,50&a
mp;WIDTH=1000&HEIGHT=433">
  


  http://www.geocommunicator.gov/wmsconnector/com.esri.wms.Esrimap
?Service=WMS&Version=1.1.1&ServiceName=BLM_BASEMAPS_wms&request=
GetMap&layers=blm_admin_area_boundaries,usfs_forests_boundaries&form
at=image/png&transparent=TRUE&srs=EPSG:4326&bbox=-126,24,-66,50&
amp;WIDTH=1000&HEIGHT=433">
  

  



Randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barend K ö bben
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:01 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] WMS into SVG

I think that a SVG UA  'should' be able to display transparent PNG, but
maybe ASV3 does not implement this in an image object. You'll have to
search/google, maybe there are known issues  for ASV with PNG.  You could
check this with a local PNG that you know has transparency, and load it into
ASV3. Also I think (but I am by no means a PNG expert) that there's several
flavours of PNG, like 24 bit and others.

Did you try getting the image from the WMS as GIF and see if that works...?


On 18-01-2007 10:12, "benoist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Barend, 
> 
>  
> 
> I use this url :
> 
> var myImageUrl =
>
"http://etat.geneve.ch/wmsconnector/com.esri.wms.Esrimap?Servicename=GeoCada
> stre_IMG";
> 
> var version="1.1.1";
> 
> var imageFormat="image/png";
> 
>  
> 
> and i am sure the provider use transparency. It can be seen using any
other
> client like mapinfo or ArcGis9.1 for instance.
> 
>  
> 
> And I use ASV3.
> 
>  
> 
> Any idée?
> 
>  
> 
> pascal
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> De : svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> De la part de Barend K ö bben
> Envoyé : jeudi 18 janvier 2007 08:31
> À : svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [svg-developers] WMS into SVG
> 
>  
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Succes for this would depend on:
> - if the WMS indeed serves the PNG transparently. What WMS do you use?
> - if the User Agent (SVG viewer) actually can display the PNG
transparency.
> What UA do you use?
> 
> Did you try using another image format, eg GIF?
> 
> __ 
> Barend Köbben
> International Institute for Geo-information
> Sciences and Earth Observation (ITC)
> PO Box 6, 7500AA Enschede (The Netherlands)
> ph: +31 (0)53 4874253; fax: +31 (0)53 4874335
> 
> On 17-01-2007 22:28, "benoist"   wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> 
>> Hello community,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I load wms data into my svg server application, through the following :
>> 
>> myImageUrl +=
>> 
>
"&service=WMS&version="+version+"&request=GetMap&layers="+layerWmsName+"&sty
>> les=&srs=EPSG:" + myMainMap.epsg;
>> 
>> myImageUrl += "&BBox=" + myMainMap.curxOrig + "," + (myMainMap.curyOrig +
>> myMainMap.curHeight) * -1 + "," + (myMainMap.curxOrig +
> myMainMap.curWidth)
>> + "," + (myMainMap.curyOrig) * -1;
>> 
>> myImageUrl += "&width=" + myMainMap.pixWidth + "&height=" +
>> myMainMap.pixHeight + "&Format=" + imageFormat;
>> 
>> myRasterImage.setAttributeNS("http://www.w3.
>  org/1999/xlink","xlink:href",myI
>> mageUrl);
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> with imageFormat being declared as : "image/png"
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My problem is that the transparent part of the image is displayed as non
>> transparent white. Would you have any help?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Pascal
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 



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RE: [svg-developers] Re: WMS into SVG

[Randy George]

Hi Bruce,

Tests out with these:

IE6 Version:6.0.3790.1830 + ASV3.03
IE7 Version 7.0.5730.11 +ASV3.03

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.2; en-US; rv:1.8.0.9) Gecko/20061206
Firefox/1.5.0.9
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1) Gecko/20061010
Firefox/2.0

Randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of brucerindahl
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:45 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: WMS into SVG

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Randy George" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hi Pascal,
> ...

> I have had no problems using layers of  elements transparent
png in
> svg with IE+ASV or Firefox.

Randy & Pascal
Are you using IE6 or IE7??  I recall that IE6/ASV could not display
transparent png files because IE6 could not display them.
Bruce Rindahl



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RE: [svg-developers] Re: WMS into SVG

[Randy George]

Also tests with 
Opera
Version 9.02
Build 8585
Platform Win32

Randy


-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of brucerindahl
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:45 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: WMS into SVG

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Randy George" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hi Pascal,
> ...

> I have had no problems using layers of  elements transparent
png in
> svg with IE+ASV or Firefox.

Randy & Pascal
Are you using IE6 or IE7??  I recall that IE6/ASV could not display
transparent png files because IE6 could not display them.
Bruce Rindahl



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RE: [svg-developers] Re: Need help determining if a point is inside or outside of a closed path

[Randy George]

Hi,

Sorry in advance if I'm misunderstanding the problem. Svg paths can
often be made into closed paths by making sure to add the 1st vertex to the
end. 

From an algorithm point of view there are lots of sites that have
information. Here is a discussion chosen at random from a google search:
http://www.acm.org/pubs/tog/editors/erich/ptinpoly/

The basic idea (after closing the path) is to draw a ray from the point in
question to infinity(or just very large relative to the path space) and then
count the number of times the line intersects a segment of the closed path.
If the count is odd the point is inside if even not.

Although, you might be inside a hole (Moveto) which could be
considered inside an outer ring, but outside the inner ring and thus outside
the multi ring. If a closed path is self intersecting life is equally
complicated, so that self-intersection is generally defined away by
preconditioning into multiple paths. .. and we haven't even brought up
correct intersection of cubic Bezier curve segments.

Here is the classic Java api for geometric calcs:
http://www.vividsolutions.com/jts/jtshome.htm - LPGL

Randy


http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/DTD/svg10.dtd"; >
http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink";
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg";
width="600" height="600"
preserveAspectRatio="xMinYMin"
viewBox="5.317441 -30.263707 7.082269240963304 28.294216539175043"
>





-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of rs274d
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:20 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Need help determining if a point is inside or
outside of a closed path

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "vmmdragon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "rs274d"  wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone someone guide me in determining if a point is inside or
> > outside of a closed path? I can manage this for polygons but I'm lost
> > where to start on paths. Alternatively has someone written code they
> > would share on converting paths to polygons? Any help is much
> appreciated.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Jeff E.
> >
> 
> Take a look at http://kevlindev.com/geometry/
> he's got a great working SVG example.
> 
> M.
>
M.

Thanks for the pointer -  but I could not find an example of
determining if a point is inside or outside of a path. Lots of
examples of intersection with paths and an example of a point in a
polygon. 

What I'm trying to do is determine if a point (start of a piece of
text) in layer 1 is inside or outside of a several paths (mixed
absolute and relative) on layer 2. 

I have this working great if layer 2 containing polygons but I am
struggling for a way to do the same with paths.

Many Thanks,
Jeff E.





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[svg-developers] RE: PostGIS release includes svg output

[Randy George]

Hi,

 

  I know some here may not have seen this from the latest release of
PostGIS. http://postgis.refractions.net/

 

  This release includes a new AsSVG() Function. This makes life a bit
more efficient for svg output streams.

 

  Anyone working with web mapping/GIS applications using svg should be
very interested in PostGIS. It is also a way to crop vectors from large
engineering design files. Could be a real boon to mobile apps on those tiny
screens.

 

Randy

 

 

Refractions Research is pleased to announce the release of PostGIS 0.9.0,
with support for the upcoming PostgreSQL 8.0 release and the newly released
GEOS 2.0.0 topology library.

 

PostGIS adds support for geographic objects to the PostgreSQL
object-relational database. In effect, PostGIS "spatially enables" the
PostgreSQL server, allowing it to be used as a backend spatial database for
geographic information systems (GIS).

 

Thanks to the work of the PgSQL development team, with PgSQL 8.0 it will be
possible to use PostGIS under Windows as a native process. Early testing of
PostGIS on Windows has shown a 30% performance increase for the native
version over the cygwin version for GIS data loading workloads.

 

With GEOS 2.0.0, PostGIS now sports robust geometry buffering, and improved
geometry intersection and union functions. Other PostGIS 0.9.0 improvements
include new management utilities, improved spatial index estimation and
direct integration in the PgSQL 8.0 statistics gathering mechanism.

 

PostGIS is open source software licensed under the GNU GPL.

 

For more information, see http://postgis.refractions.net
 

 

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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RE: [svg-developers] convert from NAD 27 to lat/long ?

[Randy George]

Hi,

You could try the proj4 site: http://proj.maptools.org/
Or you could buy the Snyder Manual from the USGS
"Map Projectsions a Working Manual" Paper 1395

There used to be a Wolfram Mathematica site with extensive formulae
for geographic coordinate transforms but I cannot find it right now?

Randy

-Original Message-
From: Wang, Shaowei [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:13 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [svg-developers] convert from NAD 27 to lat/long ?

I need help!

I have a SVG map projected by NAD27/Albers and I can get coordinates from
it, for example (-252189, 196520). But I need get Latitude/Longitude for any
point on map. Can anyone tell me the formula to convert coordinates from NAD
27(see below for details) to Latitude/longitude?

 

Thanks,

--

Datum:   NAD 27

  Projection:  Albers

  Units:   Meters

  1st Std. Parallel:   34 00 00 (34.0 degrees N)

  2nd Std. Parallel:   40 30 00 (40.5 degrees N)

  Longitude of Origin: -120 00 00 (120.0 degrees W)

  Latitude of Origin:  00 00 00 (0.0 degrees)

  Latitude of Origin:  00 00 00

  False Easting (X shift): 0

  False Northing (Y shift):-4,000,000

--

Shaowei Wang 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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RE: [svg-developers] Re: Embedding images from a database?

[Randy George]

Hi,

Try this:

http://host:port/webapp/servlet/ImageLookup?image=imagename.jpg";
/>

You need to furnish your own ImageLookup servlet to return the appropriate
JDBC query result with a response.setContentType("image/jpeg");


-Original Message-
From: TJ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:04 PM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Embedding images from a database?



When you say "redirect to it..." are you assuming the images still
reside on a web server some place?  Or am I missing the point of what
you are suggesting?

The goal is to get rid of the necessity of a web server all together.
 I am developing an application that needs to connect to a MySql
database.  Currently the only reason we are running a web server is to
host the images we embed in some svg we generate and view within the
application.

I am just looking for a way to get rid of the web server and host the
images in the MySql database and still be able to view them by linking
through an image tag in svg, or even by linking in html.

Thank you for the help, I really appreciate it.  If you need me to
clarify the question furhter please ask.

Thank you,
TJ  

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Kalev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> How about a call to a file on the server that will find the right
image
> based on information from the DB and redirect to it...
> 
> Peter Kalev
> Senior Developer,
> SWF, LLC
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: TJ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:07 AM
> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [svg-developers] Embedding images from a database?
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Please excuse me if this is a bit off topic, or has been covered
> elsewhere.  I have searched the archives but was unsuccessful.
> 
> I am embedding images into svg using the image tag.  The images are
> stored on a web server.  For example it is typicial to see something
> like this in my svg.
>  xlink:href="www.mydomain.com/myImage.gif"/>
> 
> I would actually like to be able to store my images in a MySql
> database rather than in a web directory.  Is there anyway to link an
> image, stored as a BLOB perhaps, in a database to my image tag.  So
> for example:
> 
> 
> I am not too familiar with MySql.  Any suggestions welcome.
> 
> Thank you,
> TJ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe send a message to:
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[svg-developers] Re: Lack of lod support. Knock-out criterium?

[Randy George]

Hi,

 

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG12/media.html#multires but isn't this
just for images jpg,png? 

 

  I was hoping that eventual incorporation of jpeg2000 rendering would
take care of the issue by providing progressive rendering as part of jpeg
rather than as part of the svg spec. Do all subimage references get loaded
initially or only as needed?

 

  I think the LOD question is for vectors.

 

 



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[svg-developers] Lack of lod support. Knock-out criterium?

[Randy George]

I'm not sure that I understand why you would want "level of detail"
functionality to reside in the rendering at the browser. This should
probably be handled on the server side not the client side. Why download
several levels of detail and tie up scarce bandwidth?

 

  If level of detail is important to your application you could use a
spatial database for the maps on the server side. You can then handle lod in
a couple of ways.

1.  Query using a simplify function filter. This would require some
javascript to identify a lod threshold as well as the aoi. Then the svg view
object would be changed to a new view object based on the results of your
spatial query. 
2.  Keep a detail level as a column in the spatial table and limiting
the query to the level appropriate to the viewbox. Again you would use
javascript to monitor the onzoom events. 

For example: level 1 includes just highways level 2 includes roads as well
as level 1, etc If scale discrepancies exist you would probably not be able
to use a clause like "and level<=3" Another approach is to keep a min and
max visibility threshold for each object in the table then the query would
add a clause like  "and (visibility>min and visibility<=max)" This approach
allows you to handle scale discrepancy issues by setting the min and max
thresholds to eliminate coarse scale when moving to finer scale or keeping
both if scale discrepancy is not an issue. 

 

If you don't have a spatial database you could simulate one by dividing the
view into the various level of detail (one svgz for each) and calling them
with javascript from the onzoom event which detect when a specific level of
detail threshold has been reached. This could get complicated in a hurry
though and does not save much download time at the higher levels of detail
unless you go further and come up with a tiling mechanism too. In which case
as you zoom down, the lod svgz files are divided into horizontal tiles and
only the required tiles are merged to replace your svg view object src.
Obviously the database approach is cleaner.

 

By the way there is lod built into the renderer since objects have to be
mapped to screen pixels which automatically reduces detail intricacy. I
assume that is not what you want though.

 

  Trying to include lod in the renderer doesn't seem like a good idea.

 



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[svg-developers] Lack of lod support. Knock-out criterium?

[Randy George]

Hi,

 

  Knock out criterion?

 

  I am not sure that I understand why you would want a level of detail
functionality to reside in the rendering at the browser. This should
probably be handled on the server side not the client side. Why download
several levels of detail and tie up scarce bandwidth?

 

  If level of detail is important to your application you could use a
spatial database for the maps on the server side. You can then handle lod in
a couple of ways.

1.  Query using a simplify function filter. This would require some
javascript to identify a lod threshold as well as the aoi. Then the svg view
object would be changed to a new view object based on the results of your
spatial query.
2.  Keep a detail level as a column in the spatial table and limiting
the query to the level appropriate to the viewbox. Again you would use
javascript to monitor the onzoom events. For example level 1 includes just
highways level 2 includes roads as well as level 1, etc If scale
discrepancies exist you would probably not be able to use a clause like "and
level<=3" Another approach is to keep a min and max visibility threshold for
each object in the table then the query would add a clause like  "and
(visibility>min and visibility<=max)" This approach allows you to handle
scale discrepancy issues by setting the min and max thresholds to eliminate
coarse scale when moving to finer scale.

 

If you don't have a spatial database you could simulate one by dividing the
view into the various level of detail (one svgz for each) and calling them
with javascript from the onzoom event to detect when a specific level of
detail threshold has been reached. This could get complicated in a hurry
though and does not save much download time at the higher levels of detail
unless you go further and come up with a tiling mechanism too. In which case
as you zoom down, the lod svgz files are divided into horizontal tiles and
only the required tiles are merged to replace your svg view object src.

 

By the way there is lod built into the renderer since objects have to be
mapped to screen pixels which automatically reduces detail intricacy. I
assume that is not what you want though.

 

  Trying to include lod in the renderer doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

>this question is related to my "pseudo LOD" question a couple of

days ago:

 

Hi Pierre.

Thank you for supplying me the correct technical term. I have done 

some searches with SVG and LOD and found several recent proposals to 

include LOD support to SVG.

Odd that this capability has not been added so far. The lack of lod-

support is almost a knock-out criterium in my eyes. I mean what's the 

big deal about having the graphic rendered on the client side if you 

cannot easily some into and out of details?

It certainly makes SVG much less usefull for mapping applications.



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RE: [svg-developers] Medical images

[Randy George]

Hi Shaman,

I think you would have to convert your Dicom images to something
useable in svg such as jpg or png in order to use medical imagery inside
svg. I experimented with this awhile back converting DICOM to jpg film
strips which could then be moved through a masked view to simulate DICOM
animation. If you need to extend a viewer for medical imagery you should
probably consider Batik rather than ASV. 
Medical people don't like lossy jpg very much so svg frameworks for
medical applications would probably require using png. Unfortunately the png
rendering is somewhat slower than jpg and can slow down client side
interactions that depend on javascript events in ASV. I don't know if the
same is true of Batik.

Randy

-Original Message-
From: shaman_svg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 8:38 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Medical images



Is it possible to extend Adobe SVG Viewer to embed medical images to
the SVG environment?

Thanks.

Shaman 





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RE: [svg-developers] Re: Medical images

[Randy George]

Hi Shaman,

I understand that XAML is to extend svg into the 3rd dimension but
we will have to wait for some time to get much chance to see it in action.
Longhorn is still a year or two out + 2-3 more before there is an extensive
installation base? Then there is the problem of a shrinking browser user
base for MS only solutions? In the meantime as you mentioned there is still
a lot of medical imagery that is simply 2D. 
I imagine bandwidth would need to grow a good deal before actual 3D
modeling is feasible in a web app situation, especially in a tomography
sense which requires more than wire frame modeling. As I understand it we
aren't even talking nurb surfaces but full 3D voxel models for that type of
imagery. Even if the client side rendering engine handles all the 3d
manipulation there is a lot of information to pass across the internet to
get a model to the client to render. A possible approach is to handle the 3D
manipulation on the server and just pass the resulting 2D view plane to the
browser for which png/jpg could work inside an svg framework. Perhaps the
simplest approach would be to extend an existing workstation modeler to pass
view planes to an svg client. It wouldn't be very interactive but has the
advantage of being shared across the world for discussion and whiteboard
collaboration.
Though I haven't seen much of any activity in the medical use of
svg, if you know of any examples please pass it on to the community. I'm
sure there would be some interest.

Thanks
Randy

-Original Message-
From: shaman_svg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 5:59 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Medical images



Thank you, Sara.

However there is no use to convert DICOM or some other 
medical stuff to common raster or vector formats. There are
too much reasons. Speed, interactivity, sometimes interactive 
3D rendering, medical specific data e.c. The conversion
to jpg or png is a way, when you just need to make practically
stationary medical web page. That would be cool to 
extend SVG viewer. Say, I whant to have buttons, drawing 
lines, text labels, data charts and other 
beauty as SVG but with 3D rendering of human skull 
coming from tomograph device, OK? Something about 
extension is included in next SVG standart, however 
I did not get the idea.

Regards. And thanks to show me the forum!

Shaman.

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "sara_j_porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> 
> Shaman,
> You need to be more specific.  
> What are the file formats that the 
> medical images are stored in?  Are 
> they raster (tif, jpg, png, gif) 
> or vector (svg, eps, dxf).  Are they 2d or 3d?
> 
> Sara Porter






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RE: [svg-developers] Re: adroit maps.google.com/maps

[Randy George]

Hi Andreas,

Google has a great web service Beta that takes MapQuest features to
the next level. It is still constrained to the lowest common denominator of
browser which has unfortunately remained stagnant for the past couple of
years. The only real pressure for change is coming from the Mozilla/Firefox
project with some hints and rumors in the long awaited Longhorn camp.

It would make sense that the people at Google are experimenting with
vector mapping internally but don't have any reason to expose it as a public
project until the browser situation evolves some more. If Google, for
example, were to get behind a powerful OGC compliant WMS that would serve
xml/(svg)(xaml)(gml) instead of just anemic jpg, that would be some major
innovation! Bureaucracies like the European Geoportal or here in the US the
FGDC would have some innovative competition. Imagine having your own
mappable features loaded on your 1Tb of Gmaps with infinitely customizable
viewing over street level map base including routing and geocoding. That
would be a real adventure!

In the meantime I wonder if Google map background images can't be
automatically inserted into an svg map. As the view changes on the svg a
server side tool could Google up the necessary background for the vector
contours, points, footprints etc in svg foreground. I imagine Navteq
TeleAtlas would frown on that. 

Randy

-Original Message-
From: Andreas Neumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:19 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: adroit maps.google.com/maps



In my opinion the google maps have several advantages/disadvantages: 
 
nice features: 
* symbolization is nicer than at other map services 
* simple: generally works on many browsers. Many mapservices only 
support Iex. Google states that they work on Safari support as well 
* panning and recentering works nice 
* the map area is large, no annyoing advertising and other space 
occupying features 
* as with the other google services: usage of the service is simple 
and they only provide the important stuff, no gimmicks and useless 
animations 
 
not so nice: 
* the navigation is a bit complicated: zooming in can only be done 
by clicking and the slider. State of the art today is zooming with 
drawing a rectangle. 
* there is no reference map. If you are zoomed in far, you have no 
idea where you are in the reference map. The reference map not only 
helps with knowing where you are, but also aids in navigation. One 
can more quickly navigate to another place 
* the map information itself is still "car-centric" (well, no 
surprise in the US ;-)) and a bit poor. In the US there are so many 
free data sources that they could easily integrate, f.e. a 
hillshading as a background or landcover information, aerial images, 
etc. Ideally one could turn on/off layers. 
* Opera, Konqueror and Safari still not supported. As to my 
experience, those browsers are pretty complete regarding DHTML 
support. I guess with a bit additional work, they could easily 
support those browsers as well. 
* the tile size is in my opinion too small 128pix, 256pix tiles 
would be faster and better for today's larger screens. 
 
As far as I know, the google people will address the above problems. 
After all, it is still a "beta" version ... 
 
 
just my opinion, 
Andreas 
 
--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "mkidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote: 
>  
> An analysis of the Google maps implementation: 
> http://tinyurl.com/6m4mn 
>  
> Discussion on Slashdot 
> http://tinyurl.com/3jgv8 
>  
> Mike 





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RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!

[Randy George]

This is interesting these are all job advertisements in the past few
weeks with svg listed in the requirements somewhere:

 Quality Engineer  Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg,  APPLY 
 Principal Scientist  Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg,  APPLY 
 Project Lead  Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg,  APPLY 
 Software Engineer  Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg,  APPLY 
 Quality Engineer  Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg,  APPLY 
 Senior Computer Scientist  San Jose,  Adobe
 White Box Test Lead for Acrobat San Jose, Adobe
- Experience working with XML is strongly preferred. Familiarity
with
several of the following standards XSLT, XSL-FO, XHTML, CSS, XForms,
SVG is a strong plus.

Doesn't sound like they are abandoning svg to me?



-Original Message-
From: Rick Bullotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:08 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer
...MASSIVELY !!!


It certainly seems like Adobe is really pulling back from SVG in a large
way.  

No (visible) significant work in the area in quite some time, marginal
interoperability with Firefox, and so on.

Quite a shame.  I've always said that native SVG support in the browser
would be the only way to achieve broad acceptance.  Any one know a timetable
for native SVG in Firefox?


-Original Message-
From: Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:08 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer
...MASSIVELY !!!


Hi Renato,

Yes, that's true, it would increase dramaticly the number of desktop with
ASV, and it would be very benefic to SVG.
But on the other hand, it reminds me the story of an operating system (???)
distruting its favorite browser with itsself, reducing dramaticly any
concurrent development.

Nowadays, it's true, ASV is mainly THE SVG viewer. But it is only a standard
in fact. I still hope there will be other viewers in the future.  

Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte

Société Logatique
50 rue Marcel Dassault
92100 Boulogne-Billancourt

01 46 21 59 59



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RE: [svg-developers] Re: adroit maps.google.com/maps

[Randy George]

For the Google Map inclined,



I have been experimenting a bit with using maps.google with svg. 

 

The Google Map land appears to be very simple, 128px128px .gif tiles
arranged in 15 resolution levels from 14 down to 0. You can think of Google
Land as a 15 course pyramid.These tiles are easily accessed with something
like:   http://mt.google.com/mt?v=.1&x=-6&y=5&zoom=12";>

or from the browser address: http://mt.google.com/mt?v=.1&; x=-6& y=5&
zoom=12

 

v is perhaps version .1

x is cell column 

y is cell row

zoom is the resolution level 0-14



The maps are in a null projection longitude latitude. I haven't
deciphered the LL to cell mapping yet. The cells appear to be in a quad tree
arrangement with each level subdividing the previous cell into 4. 

Grids appear to start at -180,90 and cover north America. The
east and south edges contract toward the coasts as you step down the
resolution stack. Zero cell appears to land near -98.375,39.5 which is in
the middle of Lake Waconda KS. I assume the only significance here is that
this is roughly centered in the continental US. 

 

With a little effort it would probably be possible to pick off
the route vrml and the point LL locations as well and include it as svg.

 

I assume Google is simply licensing base map from Navteq. They
are possibly script precompiling all the gif images from the vector base
rather than transcoding on the fly for faster throughput. I am not sure
whether they would be able to, or have an interest in sublicensing, but it
is an interesting hack.

 

A few interesting things that could be done:

1.  Use google background for svg mapping your own location points with
custom icons
2.  User input points to build point tables. A community of users could
quickly build interesting location tables. Perhaps kind of a map blogging or
geocaching etc
3.  Do stack animations to run down levels to a location. Stacking gif
cells over a point location and then using fade and zoom to flip through the
stack might give an interesting affect
4.  Add online svg draw functions over a map (ref pilatfr)
5.  Add online svg whiteboard so multiple users can discuss a map online
6.  overlay common svg boundaries like zips
7.  Overlay chloropleth data sets with low opacity
8.  Connect a tile populator to svg zoom and pan
9.  etc

 

 

If Google Maps incorporates the keyhole technology it could be even more
interesting with high resolution satellite imagery.

 

Here is some experimental stuff: http://www.web-maps.com/GoogleMapExplore
Sorry this probably only works with IE and ASV3.02

 

All this does is point out the utility of a common map infrastructure. It of
course would be more useful for many of us if the infrastructure were to be
in vectors, but even images are useful as a background once the cell to LL
mapping is known.

 

randy



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RE: [svg-developers] Tutorial: integrating SVG map apps with OGC WMS services

[Randy George]

Hi carto.net,

Very nice! The folks at carto.net have done it again. I didn't
realize that Terraserver included a WMS server for some of their imagery.
This is a great resource for background under vector resources.

Do you know if there are any experimental WMS servers that serve
&format=image/svg+xml? I have only come across &format=image/jpeg, gif ...

I have been interested in seeing what could be done with a PostGIS
server set up to serve something like generic vmap0 as a WMS. Once PostGIS
1.0 is released I have thought to do an experimental service. It would be
fairly straightforward since PostGIS does most of the work on the server
side. A couple of java servlets on top of the PostGIS would be sufficient.
An svg WMS client could be quite simple and still quite sophisticated. 

The concept would be ideal for public sector data sets like those
found in FGDC sites here in the US or the Census TIGER, USGS sdts,  I am
surprised there hasn't been more emphasis on this approach. Even if
&format=gml were available it could be accessed server to server for
transcoding to svg fairly easily. I realized after experimenting with Google
Maps that even non WMS compliant servers can have a viable use in an SVG
framework.

The beauty of data infrastructure like Terraserver, Google Maps,
MapPoint etc is that very little resources are required at the service
point. Services can simply provide the client and all the heavy loading is
passed to the WMS server. 

Thanks

-Original Message-
From: Andreas Neumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 4:15 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Tutorial: integrating SVG map apps with OGC WMS
services



Hi all,

there is a new carto.net tutorial online on the following topic:

"Integrating OpenGIS Webmapping Services with SVG mapping applications"

URL: http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/ogc_wms_integration/

The main purpose of this tutorial is to explain how to efficiently integrate
raster data in 
existing SVG mapping applications. It is a two part tutorial. Part one
illustrates how to 
integrate existing OGC WMS services with your SVG mapping app, by example of
the MS 
terraserver. Part two explains how to setup your own WMS services, using the
popular UMN 
mapserver.

Please report any corrections or suggestions regarding this tutorial.

Hope it is useful to some of you.

Andreas





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RE: [svg-developers] Tutorial: integrating SVG map apps with OGC WMS services

[Randy George]

Hi Barend,

I haven't looked too seriously at MySQL since it appears to be a
good bit behind PostGIS capabilities. I haven't used the new AsSvg function
in PostGIS 1.0rc very much, but the main attraction of PostGIS for a WMS is
the built in coordinate system capability along with a great selection of
spatial queries. Unless things have changed recently I don't think the
current MySQL spatial extensions include a spatial_ref_sys capability.
Without SRIDs you end up having to add georeference transforms to the
middleware in order to make the output useful with other data. Letting the
database handle coordinate conversion saves a lot of effort. PostGIS/proj4
includes around 1800 coordinate systems.
Oracle is always out there but it drives up the infrastructure costs
considerably without adding too much capability.

You seem to be further ahead on the WMS/WFS, have you run across
anything that publicly serves vector formats? Perhaps a few of us could come
up with something that would illustrate the vast advantage of svg over
simple jpg as a wms service. 

SFS objects expressed as WKT or WKB are easily transcoded to svg but
AsSvg is a convenience that helps speed things up a bit. I'll have to look
at the OGC SLD stuff since styling issues do get tangled up in svg output. A
first pass could simplify the styling issues with a couple of generic css
files as part of the server. It would be a nice touch to put style editing
in the client. An svg client could offer basic color, opacity, font, width
editing by layer (enclosing ) without much effort and without round
trips to the server. I guess that in itself illustrates the superiority of
svg over raster.

Thanks
Randy

-Original Message-
From: Barend Köbben [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 9:08 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Tutorial: integrating SVG map apps with OGC
WMS services


Hi Randy,

just as an aside: using a WMS to server &image=gml is rather besides the
point. For serving GML, you'd use a WFS a Web Feature Service that gives you
streamed GML...

Your ideas about a WMS service serving svg are jnot unlike the ones I had.
I'd expected it to be along already, but getting more and more the idea I'll
probably have to  try to do it myself...  

I guess that you want to be  using built-in PostGIS functionality for the
translation to SVG? I would suggest that a more generic approach woul be
nicer, where you'd be able to use any SFS compliant DB (so also could be
using Oracle or MySQL) and have some middleware that translates from SFS to
SVG, preferabley using other OGC standards such as SLDs (Styled Layer
Descriptors). I'd guess that existing open source WMS servers can be tweaked
or expanded to do so




Barend Köbben
International Institute for Geo-information Sciences and  Earth Observation
(ITC)
PO Box 6, 7500AA Enschede (The Netherlands)
ph: +31 (0)53 4874253; fax: +31 (0)53 4874335 
_________

-Original Message-
From: Randy George [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2005 16:54
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Tutorial: integrating SVG map apps with OGC
WMS services



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RE: [svg-developers] Re: Tutorial: integrating SVG map apps with OGC WMS services

[Randy George]

Hi Andreas,

>yes - they serve DOQs and DRGs - unfortunately they have different 
>datums (NAD83 vs NAD27) and the two resources don't match ;-( it's a 
>pity they did not reproject the DRGs to the new NAD83 datum ... 

Looks like TerraServer liked your suggestion:
>From their site -
"Our OpenGIS Web Map Server now supports dynamic reprojection of USGS DOQ
and DRG data from UTM NAD83 to Geographic projection (EPSG:4326)! New styles
have been added to draw gridlines in a number of different colors. Click
here to view a web map that contains DOQ imagery from two UTM zones
reprojected to Geographic. The image displays the UTM coordinates in Cyan.
The location is New Orleans, Louisiana."

I tried it out in http://www.web-maps.com/Colorado/
See the DOQQ tab, you can see the distortion of the EPSG:4326 especially
well in the plains area with the circular well irrigation fields turning
into ellipses. Oh well back to UTM.
 

>The reason probably is, that to serve vector data is much more 
>complex than serving raster data. 

Not necessarily.
 
>How do you deal with the interactive parts, event handlers, 
>attribute data, etc? 

There are two ways to use a WMS service 1> from another service 2> from a
client.

Service
One service grabs data from another and combines it with local data.
Like you have done in the tutorial: 
terraserver furnishes the DOQQ 
your server furnishes the client
your server furnishes the boundary shaded relief etc
In this case you add any interactivity desired from the local
service point, the external WMS just provides some useful lines, polygons,
and points instead of imagery.

Client
 In theory interactive parts can all be part of the svg client.
Clients can be interchangeable/customized as needed while using the same
basic WMS export of vectors into an object src. Add event handlers with the
svg client at onload. Onload would be the only necessary event passed out of
the WMS most of the other events could be added by the client as long as you
have access to metadata about any IDs. 

function on_load(evt){

  svgdoc = evt.target.ownerDocument;
  svgroot = svgdoc.getDocumentElement();
   .
 .
  svgroot.setAttribute("onmousedown","mymousedown(evt)");
  svgroot.setAttribute("onmouseup","mymouseup(evt)");
 .
 .
  svgdoc.getElementById(ID).setAttribute("onclick","myonclick(evt)");
  .
  .
}


>Also, vector data would have to be clipped and reduced (generalized) 
>on the fly. 

PostGIS queries can handle some clipping. 
Example:sql = "select id, address_1 as name,
AsText(transform(the_geom,"+ref+")) as geom from "+table+" where the_geom &&
transform(GeometryFromText('BOX3D("+ulx+" " +uly+ ","+lrx+"
"+lry+")'::box3d,"+ref+"), 4269);";

More clipping with a "and within()" clause

Generalized output can be provided with the PostGIS simplify(geometry,
tolerance) function, but it could also be handled efficiently by multiple
resolution tables(like Google Maps). The client decides which table or
tolerance to use based on zoom level or just from a user layer selection. 
 

>yes, postgis is very nice for that purpose. We use it in many 
>projects now and like it. We will soon (2-4 weeks) post a new 
>application of the Yosemite NP, based on Postgis (vector data) and 
>UMN Mapserver (raster data). 
 
I look forward to seeing it. Perhaps it would be nice to have svg contours
with rollover z elevation attribute over DOQQ 

>it would be nice to have a XML based description, similar to ArcXML 
>or the UMN map file, but tailored towards the specifics of SVG. That 
>map description would include the layer information, min/max scale 
>switches to other tables or filters, symbolization information and 
>information on event handlers. The XML could be parsed by a PHP 
>script or Java Servlet that handles the extraction and symbolization 
>of the SVG structure. 

Yes it would be nice but just a straightforward WMS export of svg vector
layers from a data source like vmap0 would make a good start. Let the local
developer/user customize clients from there.

Regards
randy



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RE: [svg-developers] MID/MIF to SVG conversion

[Randy George]

Hi,

MID/MIF is a very simple ASCII interchange format used by MapInfo. I believe
MapInfo exports svg. 

Alternatively it would not be much of a project to simply write a translator
that would take the mif to svg. 

Adding mid attributes requires a decision. 

You can:
A. ignore attributes
B. add a single attribute in the svg id
C. add multiple attributes as custom namespace attributes
D. put the attributes in a SQL database like MySQL, PostgreSQL and link the
records to your svg through the id attribute. 

E. Or you can turn them into a GIS system and import both vectors and
attributes to PostGIS using something like the ogr translation utilities:
http://www.remotesensing.org:16080/ogr/ogr_formats.html This gives you the
most flexibility of exporting to svg using geospatial queries, but you have
to be able to write your own query result exporter.

Example MIF:
version 300
Charset "WindowsLatin1"
CoordSys Earth Projection 1, 0
columns 3
Layer   CHAR(30)
NameCHAR(45)
Elevation   DECIMAL(10,4)
data
LINE -67.38353230 44.72273359 -67.38208967 44.72243561
  Pen (1,02,255)
PLINE6
-67.46127510 44.60689620 
-67.46411123 44.60698373 
-67.46554349 44.60724517 
-67.46670605 44.60835186 
-67.46708750 44.60849848 
-67.46904664 44.60894944 
 Pen (1,02,0)
PLINE6
-67.46117178 44.60707425 
-67.46407399 44.60716382 
-67.46539431 44.60740483 
-67.46653682 44.60849242 
-67.46698775 44.60866576 
-67.46887331 44.60909978 
 Pen (1,02,0)
 
Associated MID
"WATER" "river" 20.00   
"WATER" "stream"5.00
"WATER" "North Platte"  18.00   

Possible svg export using method B:


randy

-Original Message-
From: janos_peter_nagy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 7:43 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] MID/MIF to SVG conversion



Hi,

I have a bunch of MID/MIF files and I would like to convert them to 
SVG format. Can anyone give me a hint of how to do this ?

Thanks





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RE: [svg-developers] MySQL AText(ogc) -->GeomFromText

[Randy George]

Hi Burkhard,

Try modifying this slightly. First add the extra () for WKT Polygon and
close the Polygon: 
INSERT INTO ownerpolygons (ogc_geom,nutzer,style) VALUES
(GeomFromText('POLYGON((2530665 5614074,2530643 614038,2530687 
5614030.782426778,2530665 5614067,2530665 5614074 ))'),1,'orange')

Randy

-Original Message-
From: Burkhard Stollenwerk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 7:43 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] MySQL AText(ogc) -->GeomFromText


Hello 

I have a problem with Mysql and geomdatasaving.

1.)  INSERT INTO ownerpolygons (ogc_geom,nutzer,style) VALUES
(GeomFromText('POINT(10 10)'),1,'orange')
2.)  INSERT INTO ownerpolygons (ogc_geom,nutzer,style) VALUES
(GeomFromText('POLYGON(2530665 5614074,2530643 614038,2530687 
5614030.782426778,2530665 5614067)'),1,'orange')


SELECT id,AsText(ogc_geom) as ogc FROM ownerpolygons

1:) ogc is given as correct text back 
2.) ogc is empty?

Is MySQL 4.1.7 not correct or why ist second query empty?

Burkhard Stollenwerk
  - Original Message - 
  From: Dale Ellis 
  To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:30 AM
  Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Quiz in SVG



  To anyone interested,

  I have improved the SVG quiz, got the question randoming properly so 
  questions don't come out twice, and there's more questions available.

  SVG QUIZ
  http://a.1asphost.com/svggames/games/SVGQuiz/index.asp

  SVG GAMES
  http://a.1asphost.com/svggames/index.asp

  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  > 
  > Hi all,
  > 
  > Just created a Quiz in SVG on the Simpsons which is on my SVG Games 
  > site.
  > 
  > Im quite happy with it, it works well in SVG I think, any 
  > comments/suggestions are very welcome.  Links are listed below.
  > 
  > Made a little interface so I can add Questions easily so the number 
  > of questions increase all the time.
  > 
  > SVG QUIZ
  > http://a.1asphost.com/svggames/games/SVGQuiz/index.asp
  > 
  > SVG GAMES
  > http://a.1asphost.com/svggames/index.asp
  > 
  > Thanks
  > Dale Ellis





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RE: [svg-developers] MySQL AText(ogc) -->GeomFromText

[Randy George]

Hi Burkhard

Does your code make sure that the first point and last point are
identical? Otherwise you should use linestring instead of polygon.

randy

-Original Message-
From: Burkhard Stollenwerk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 12:28 PM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] MySQL AText(ogc) -->GeomFromText


Hi Randy,

I´ve modify it now with the extras, but It would´t func.
my code:
 $ogc=str_replace(",","#",$ogc);
 $ogc=str_replace(" ",",",$ogc);
 $ogc=str_replace("#"," ",$ogc);
 $ogc=substr($ogc,0,-1);
 $ogc="POLYGON((".$ogc."))";
 $ogc="GeomFromText('$ogc')";
 $sql="INSERT INTO ownerpolygons (ogc_geom,nutzer,style) VALUES
($ogc,$nutzer,'".$style."')";
 $result=mysql_query($sql,$conn);
 $newid=mysql_insert_id();

Burkhard 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Randy George 
  To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:58 PM
  Subject: RE: [svg-developers] MySQL AText(ogc) -->GeomFromText


  Hi Burkhard,

  Try modifying this slightly. First add the extra () for WKT Polygon and
  close the Polygon: 
  INSERT INTO ownerpolygons (ogc_geom,nutzer,style) VALUES
  (GeomFromText('POLYGON((2530665 5614074,2530643 614038,2530687 
  5614030.782426778,2530665 5614067,2530665 5614074 ))'),1,'orange')

  Randy

  -Original Message-
  From: Burkhard Stollenwerk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 7:43 AM
  To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [svg-developers] MySQL AText(ogc) -->GeomFromText


  Hello 

  I have a problem with Mysql and geomdatasaving.

  1.)  INSERT INTO ownerpolygons (ogc_geom,nutzer,style) VALUES
  (GeomFromText('POINT(10 10)'),1,'orange')
  2.)  INSERT INTO ownerpolygons (ogc_geom,nutzer,style) VALUES
  (GeomFromText('POLYGON(2530665 5614074,2530643 614038,2530687 
  5614030.782426778,2530665 5614067)'),1,'orange')


  SELECT id,AsText(ogc_geom) as ogc FROM ownerpolygons

  1:) ogc is given as correct text back 
  2.) ogc is empty?

  Is MySQL 4.1.7 not correct or why ist second query empty?

  Burkhard Stollenwerk
- Original Message - 
From: Dale Ellis 
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Quiz in SVG



To anyone interested,

I have improved the SVG quiz, got the question randoming properly so 
questions don't come out twice, and there's more questions available.

SVG QUIZ
http://a.1asphost.com/svggames/games/SVGQuiz/index.asp

SVG GAMES
http://a.1asphost.com/svggames/index.asp

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Dale Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Just created a Quiz in SVG on the Simpsons which is on my SVG Games 
> site.
> 
> Im quite happy with it, it works well in SVG I think, any 
> comments/suggestions are very welcome.  Links are listed below.
> 
> Made a little interface so I can add Questions easily so the number 
> of questions increase all the time.
> 
> SVG QUIZ
> http://a.1asphost.com/svggames/games/SVGQuiz/index.asp
> 
> SVG GAMES
> http://a.1asphost.com/svggames/index.asp
> 
> Thanks
> Dale Ellis





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RE: [svg-developers] Learning curve... and development environment

[Randy George]

Hi Marjorie,

The best all round IDE for web development in my experience is
Eclipse. http://www.eclipse.org/ Eclipse is an open source IDE supported by
a number of software vendors. The base platform is working toward adding the
new Eclipse WTP, Web Tools Project, but in the meantime something like the
MyEclipse add on will provide xml editors, Javascript editor, SQL editors,
JDBC connectors, and Tomcat servlet runner. Eclipse already has ant run
capability, a great Java editor, and even cvs. If I remember correctly there
is a project to add a visual editor using the Batik api as a start point but
it isn't very far along. I imagine the difficulty is moving Batik to the
Eclipse SWT graphics environment.

If Adobe goes ahead with making authoring tools inside Eclipse it
would be even more powerful.

One of the really interesting concepts is cvs. Since svg is just
another xml it can be part of the repository like any program or text file.
If CAD or GIS systems were based on xml, Eclipse cvs clients with an online
repository would be able to provide a no cost revision audit through the
entire design life cycle as well as a shared development repository. A nice
feature for those concerned with Sarbanes-Oxley compliance.

randy

-Original Message-
From: Marjorie Roswell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:29 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Learning curve... and development environment


Hello SVG Developers,

I'm an eager learner. Bought a bunch of SVG books, am making my way
(for starters) through the O'Reilly SVG Essentials (I'm half done.)

It seems to me that, while learning about shapes is fairly
straightforward...that getting to interactive mapping with SVG
requires a boatload of expertise. So, I'm curious about the
development environments that people like to work in. I've tried
Inkscape, SVG Composer, and a slew of others, but even so, everything
out there seems geared toward the geometry and not the interactive
stuff. (These are great tools, for instance, to help me through SVG
Essentials!)

It looks like xtreme software has a tool for rapid SVG development,
but they don't have a trial on their site (I've asked if they could
put one up.)

Virtual Mechanics has an "Engine" that does sophisticated interaction,
but it appears only to export to SVG.

In my early understanding, it also appears that interactive design can
be done via javascript, and/or XLST (a term which was completely new
to me before delving into this)

BTW, I just sent the W3 tutorial to Kinko's, and noticed that the 75+
page PDF file has a good chapter on interaction. I'll be picking up a
bound copy after sending this email.
http://www.w3.org/2002/Talks/www2002-svgtut-ih/hwtut.pdf

Anyhow, just gut instinct, but it seems to me that the world needs
some good widgets for SVG interactivity built into a full program.

So: basic question is:

What development environment are you working in that most facilitates your
work?

(For folks writing in Javascript is there a javascript development
tool you use, for instance?)

(By the way, I'm in an environment at work where the management
doesn't like open source. I'm personally interested in using open
source tools, but for work, I'm expecting to be generating stuff from
ColdFusion, or ASP, or SQLServer, if/when I figure out how to do so. )

One question that most intrigued me on this list (and I never saw an
answer) was how to get data from XML generated by Excel into an
interactive SVG.

A note that I'm keeping a blog as I grow my SVG skills:
http://SVGMapper.blogspot.com/ ...
It's essentially a repository for great links, as I find them.

(I will be working my way through SVG tutorials on carto.net once I"m
done with the Essentials book. That, plus the pilat.free.fr stuff
looks great!)

So: your development environments please! (and any insight, especially
on tools for developing interactive maps.)

Sincerely,

Margie

P.S. One personal goal is to find a dataset on hospital-caused deaths
(the non SVG challenge, to get the data) and then map them with pie
charts sized by value on geographic entities such as states or by
hospital. (I'll be exporting geographic entities into SVG from
MapInfo.) A young friend of mine died of an infection, and if
workplace needs weren't enough to motivate me (and they are!) I'm also
highly motivated by the prospect of displaying data on "iatrogenic"
deaths. I'm "driven." Driving, but not qute there yet.

Wondering if you're working in a text-based environment for
interactive development, or something else... eager to know and
learn...


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RE: [svg-developers] Re: How to achieve Tiling in SVG ?

[Randy George]

Hi,

I think there are a couple of approaches that could be implemented.

1) Precompile your world into a set of tiled coverages which is the approach
taken by Google Map.  You can see an example of wrapping Google Maps in svg
here: http://www.web-maps.com/GoogleMapExplore/ (IE ASV3.02 only)
Pro: fast, fewer cpu cycles on server
Con: not so flexible

2) Use a spatial database to clip tiles on the fly. PostgreSQL/PostGIS is
nearing 1.0 release ( http://www.postgis.org/ ) and has a very complete set
of spatial query functions. This approach also offers the use of a simplify
function. Another advantage is the ability to filter result sets by
attribute. Although primarily used for GIS/map applications, other large
graphic data sets could use this approach as well. Obviously any drawing
capable of being represented in svg has the necessary spatial component to
be used in a spatial database.
Pro: very flexible
Con: not as fast, loads the server cpu, makes a larger footprint on the
server

If you are interested in seeing relative performance on a clip approach you
can look at:  http://www.web-maps.com/Colorado/ (IE ASV3.02 only) Under the
USGS WMS tab are a couple of wrappers for Terraserver and USGS Seamless data
imagery. In both cases the svg is wrapping a 3rd party WMS which clips from
a seamless database on the fly. You will see that performance is slower not
just because the image size is greater but also because clipping has to be
handled on the server. Also the images are scaled to target pixel dimension
as well as clipped.
Note: this Colorado example is not exactly what you are looking for since
the svg merely wraps jpg output from a 3rd party public server, but
performance is similar using vector svg output from a PostGIS server. There
will likely be similar public WMS servers exporting image/xml+svg in the not
too distant future. (If anyone from the Census Bureau or USGS is on this
list I'd encourage them to set up an svg seamless WMS for TIGER,DLG,SDTS etc
It would be an incredible public resource!)

Tiling is a server side issue which can be configured to support any of the
rendering engines ASV, Batik, Firefox, Opera tiny svg etc

Perhaps Batik could be modified as a tool to precompile a set of tiles in
either svg or transcoded to jpg, but I believe it would be easier to use
PostGIS.

randy



-Original Message-
From: svg dev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 10:24 PM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: How to achieve Tiling in SVG ?


Hello,
 
i couldnt find your paper oon SVG open 2005. can you please guide me .. on
how to achieve tiling ? or pls provide me a link to the paper you wrote...
 
it would be of great help if you could provide a sample code...
 
thanks,
 
SVG dev.

campin_b <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hello,

I have submit a paper for svg open 2005 about tiling in the case of 
maps, however, the aim is to load a peace of svg (1 or more) if the 
viewbox of the user overlaps the tiles.

You will need to code a kind of intersection method in javascript 
to check the intersection depending on the value of the viewbox 
(events onzoom(evt) or onscroll(evt) )

Benjamin

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, svg dev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>  
> I am using SVG with my J2EE application. Specifically I want to 
know more about Batik capabilities on tiling OR handling the 
performance. 
>  
> My SVG files are realtively big anf takes time to load on client. 
Please advice me how to handle this.
>  
> I have read that Tiling of SVG can help improving the performance. 
>  
> But i dont know how exactly Tiling can be achieved in Batik.
>  
> Or is there any other way than Batik? 
>  
> Thanks,
> Svg developer.
> 
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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---

RE: [svg-developers] adapt size of my graphic to the size of browser window

[Randy George]

Hi,



Where life gets a bit more complicated is tracking evt.screenX/Y
transform to viewBox() 
Best place for help on this is:
http://www.kevlindev.com/gui/utilities/viewbox/index.htm


randy

-Original Message-
From: tamsvg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 2:24 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] adapt size of my graphic to the size of browser
window



Hi!

My graphic is a floor plan of a building. This plan should be
displayed in a browser window. The plan should fit in the window and
should fill it completely and this with every window size. If I change
the size of my browser window the size of the plan must be changed
too.  Is this possible? How can I do this?

Thanks for helping!

tam 





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RE: [svg-developers] SVG Devlopment

[Randy George]

Hi,

Will there be any SVG Tiny 1.2 devices available by this summer? 
Thanks

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Antoine Quint
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 6:24 PM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] SVG Devlopment

Hello,

On 16 mai 2005, at 01:04, Frag Mich wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone could give me some tips on getting started
> with SVG Devlopment. I have been a Flash Devloper for the past 6 years
> and am now getting requests to devlop small mobile applications for
> mobile telephones. I am interested in knowing which scipting languages
> are used with svg and if there are any tools that allow for devlopment
> that would be familiar to somone with flash experience.

If you are planning on doing mobile development, chances are you are  
targetting the SVG Tiny 1.1 profile which is currently being deployed  
on a vast array on mobile phones, primarily in Europe and Northern  
America. You can see a not-necessarily exhaustive list of SVG-enabled  
mobile phones at:

http://svg.org/special/svg_phones

SVG Tiny 1.1 does not have scripting capabilities while however  
allowing for some interactivity through its animation elements  
facilities. You can change an object's color when you mouse over it,  
or make animations start when you click on a button, etc. Most of the  
things that involve actual conditional logic that is usually  
expressed with a programming language is not going to be possible in  
SVG Tiny 1.1.

Later this year, SVG Tiny 1.2 devices will start showing up on the  
market and spread more massively throughout 2006. SVG Tiny 1.2, the  
new specification for mobile SVG, allows you for full-blown  
interactivity through ECMAScript (same language as ActionScript) or  
Java , multimedia capabilities, etc.

Currently available tools for creating mobile SVG content:

   - Adobe Creative Suite 2 Illustrator and GoLive
   - Ikivo Animator
   - Beatware Mobile Designer

Those will definitely help you get on your feet.

Antoine
-- 
Antoine Quint - Fuchsia Design
SVG & Client-side XML Consulting
W3C Invited Expert (SVG and CDF)
http://fuchsia-design.com



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RE: [svg-developers] Plotting Latitude and Longitude on an SVG map

[Randy George]

Hi,

It sounds like you have an Albers Equal Area for the US which is
sometimes known as US48 or SRID=102003
However you can't really know unless you want to email the list a
coordinate for say a well known point like the four corners of AZ,CO,NM,UT.
With that information someone can invert the coordinates to the known LL and
determine the actual coordinate system. Once the actual coordinate system is
known you can transform to and from using the formula for that coordinate
projection system. 
There are software packages that let you do this without writing any
code like Norm Olson's Tralaine program or the open source PostGIS database
extensions for PostgreSQL.

randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of matthewbaker77
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 1:50 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Plotting Latitude and Longitude on an SVG map

I have an SVG map of the US but the coordinate system in the map has 
nothing to do with latitude / longitude coordinate system.  The map 
looks to be a segment of a conic projection of the globe as the 
northern border of the States is curved.

I have latitude / longitude coordinates that I would like to plot on 
the 2D SVG map.

How would I go about converting latitude / longitude pairs to a flat 
coordinate system on an SVG map of unknown conic projection?

To simplify my question.. How can I put dots from lat/long positions 
on an SVG map?

thanks,

matt




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[svg-developers] re: jpeg 2000

[Randy George]

Hi,

 

Does anyone know if future svg specifications will incorporate
jpeg 2000 type image rendering? 

 

Thanks



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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RE: [svg-developers] Re: Mobiform Software has updated Aurora XAML Designer for WinFX

[Randy George]

XAML sounds nice enough for MS work and probably not much of a transcode
from svg but when does it have something we can actually use for our
clients?

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of mobiform
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 8:03 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Mobiform Software has updated Aurora XAML
Designer for WinFX


> 
> When you post it in this forum, the bona fide SVG developers will 
just consider that you are trolling.

Fine. Many binafide svg developers (having been one) have left svg and 
this forum for Avalon and XAML. Many that have stayed have done so 
partially by misinformation and lies posted on this group. For 
example, XAML is only for Longhorn? False. We only work on XP. Few on 
this newsgroup understand Avalon/XAML technology enough to comment on 
it. I am consistently approcahed by *bonafide* svg developers with 
serious reservations about continuing with svg who after some 
investigation of their own, abandon it completely in favour of XAML 
and Avalon. 

 
> Is Mobiform experiencing some kind of financial difficulty?

Like most SVG companies, we we're only scraping out a living with SVG. 
We are in a drastically better finanical position with a bright future 
by dumping SVG and embracing Avalon and XAML. Keep an eye out for some 
major press releases from us in the next few weeks.

>  I know it is hard to sell unfinished beta software clones of 
unproven monopoly rip-offs

My point exactly. You don't know what we do, you don't know where 
Microsoft is with their technology. The *unproven monopoly rip-off* 
Beta as it sits today is still more stable and vastly superior in 
every aspect to what is available from all the *unfinished* open 
standards/open source community efforts. In my opinion, excluding SVG 
Tiny/Mobile, SVG has just become a monopolized xml format for Adobe, 
and now that they have Flex, what do they need that for?


- Ron






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RE: [svg-developers] Value of a pixel

[Randy George]

Hi Holger,

 I don't think there is an easy Ecmascript way to query a pixel
value at the client. I've used a server based a approach on some projects
which sends a coordinate back to the server and then gets the pixel value
from the server side image. This can then be passed back to the Ecmascript
on the client. If you are in a Java environment the Sun JAI api is a useful
tool for imagery queries. This approach works better if you are using a low
res image on the client since you can go back to the full resolution tiff
for a more accurate pixel value.

If I'm wrong about an easy Ecmascript approach it would sure be nice
to know.

Thanks
randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Holger Will
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:33 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Value of a pixel

Nicolas BOUTET schrieb:

> Hi,
>
> does someone know if it's possible (and how), using ECMAScript, to get the
> RGB value (or LookUpTable index) of a pixel (using X,Y coordinates) of an
> image item.
>
> Thanks
>
> Nicolas

Hi Nicolas
im sorry to say, but , no, this is currently not really possible.  at 
least not that easy.
there is only one way i can think of how to do it, you could
1) embed your images in your SVG via the data:image/png;base64 syntax
2)implement a base64 decoder in js
3)implement a png decoder in js
4) use 2 and 3 to turn the embedded image into an array of color values 
for each point (bitmap)
5) map the coordinates of your image to the array index
6) get the right color value on mouseover/ click ...


steps 1-4 can be precomputed. so you can use existing implementations of 
the decoders, and send the right data structure to the client.
so you only need to implement 5 and 6 in js.

cheers
Holger


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RE: [svg-developers] Problems with server project

[Randy George]

Hi inegivar,

I've not used Geoserver, but if you use PostgreSQL/PostGIS you would
have a lot more control than with a prepackaged WFS.



-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of inegivar
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 7:06 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Problems with server project

Hello folks!

I´m working on a project, where I want to serve maps as svg. My 
problem is, that I have a very large (16+mb) vector dataset. So 
naturally I chose to use a wfs (web feature server), namely 
Geoserver. I wanted to get the gml files from geoserver and then 
convert to svg via xslt.
Problem is, I can´t get the wfs to serve only a small portion of my 
spatial data, which is bad, cause that´s what the wfs is supposed to 
do.

So, two Qs:

-  does anybody has experience with wfs+xslt->svg and would help me 
out?
-  is there a way to serve chunks of an svg file WITHOUT using a wfs?,
(That would be great, solving many problems. Something like: 
Javascript sends coordinates to php script which cuts a rectangle out 
of the whole svg file, is it possible?)

Thanks for your time!





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[svg-developers] Re: Google Maps

[Randy George]

In addition to releasing an api to Google maps, Google has expanded their
maps to cover the world (v=w2.4), not in the same detail as the US though. 

http://www.web-maps.com/GoogleMapExplore/

 

The expansion has made lat,long calculations in Google Land much easier. The
keyhole imagery is also accessible but I believe the Terraserver WMS DOQQ is
easier to correlate and probably the imagery is better for the USA. I wonder
if Google keyhole has opened up world wide imagery? 

 

I haven't looked too seriously at the api 

http://www.google.com/apis/maps/documentation/

 

It should offer some interesting possibilities beyond simply showing the
google map tiles under svg, especially if they eventually expand the api to
include routing and geocoding.

 

randy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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RE: [svg-developers] gml2svg tips

[Randy George]

Hi Barend,

I'm not a great fan of XSLT (I'm probably just too lazy) but I have
noticed the Ordnance Survey has an example:
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/products/osmastermap/xml/gml.html

Thanks
randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Barend Köbben
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:12 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] gml2svg tips

Hi there,

A student of ours just  started looking at generating SVG from generic GML
through XSLT stylesheets. One would expect there to be plenty of examples
floating around, but apart from application-schema-specific ones (like OS
mastermasp to SVG), we could find suprisingly little...

Anybody have good tips...? 


Barend Köbben
International Institute for Geo-information Sciences and  Earth Observation
(ITC)
PO Box 6, 7500AA Enschede (The Netherlands)
ph: +31 (0)53 4874253; fax: +31 (0)53 4874335 
_
 


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RE: [svg-developers] possible customer for specialized CAD or DXF to SVG

[Randy George]

Hi,

This outfit has some commercial translators you could probably try.
http://www.savagesoftware.com/

I used their batch cad converter in the past for dwg files and it
worked for my needs. The dxf/dwg format spans a large range of versions and
features. It is very complex to support all possible variants so you'd
probably want to use a commercial vendor rather than write your own.

randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of steltenpower
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 8:09 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] possible customer for specialized CAD or DXF to
SVG

I know a company that uses a specialized CAD that can also output to 
DXF to have it in a bit more mainstream format. This company uses DXF 
to PDF conversion to get the result in an even more mainstream format.
However the files created in this way are really BIG, this together 
with the possibilities SVG can offer that i told them about, has them 
very interested whether SVG can be a better (including smaller 
filesize) option.

I have a sample DXF file to work with at 
http://steltenpower.com/SVGioPDF.dxf

With this company having many subcontracters and more than a million 
customers a year i guess it could be an interesting customer

Anybody interested? Show me an example.




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RE: [svg-developers] Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Randy George]

Hi,

I ran into some problems using Apache FOP (based on Batik) It seemed
to have problems with large coordinate spaces found in mapping and I had to
rely on a commercial FO product, XEP from RenderX. Do you know if the
current version of Apache FOP handles large coordinates?

Thanks
randy

-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Alastair Fettes
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 9:27 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

Write yourself a simply client side script and server application.  To
print get the user to click a button of some sort that calls a ECMA
function that captures the current zoom level, what is visible - the
current viewbox.  Take this and send it over a redirect URL to your
server side application.  On the server side, have your
php/jsp/whatever take this viewbox and set it on a copy of the SVG
server side (in a variable in your app) and have a pre-authored XSL-FO
file that simply references the SVG.  Then convert this to PDF with
FOP and redirect the user to the PDF.

Done.

Cheers,
Alastair

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Kalev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Francis,
> 
> I have the following setup: IE6, ASV3, HTML page with embedded SVG, I
> use JavaScript to zoom and pan then simply print the web page and the
> result is a printed page of the area that was visible on the screen.
> 
> In order to avoid "squashing" of the svg image while printed, I use
> absolute dimensions in the style sheets used for print media (11in x
> 8.5in). Also make sure you set your printer to LANDSCAPE...
> 
> Peter Kalev
> Senior Developer,
> SWF, LLC
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Francis Hemsher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 7:03 PM
> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [svg-developers] Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE
> 
> Hi,
> I would like the user to be able to print the segment of the SVG image 
> that happens to be displayed, after they zoom into a specific area. I'm 
> sure not going to waste much effort in this, because I think it's 
> probably impossible at this time. Anyway, If anyone has a magic bullet 
> to accomplish this, I will be so, so happy, and surprised.
> 
> Franicis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>  
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RE: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Randy George]

Hi,

It is interesting to note from the discussion that vectors are
implicitly regarded as a much higher value than imagery ala Google, Yahoo,
MapQuest etc Theft is not a significant problem to their services partly
because images are less valuable than vectors and but even more because the
service cost benefit dwarfs the cost of any effort to steal the data.

Vectors are more valuable:
The ongoing web services standards at OGC have provided OWS specs
for both imagery WMS/WCS and vectors WFS, but there are still few public WFS
services currently available (relative to WMS). GIS data as public
infrastructure gains considerable value when published in vectors i.e. WFS.
Public GIS data services provided by governments (US Census, USGS, NOAA,
BTT, FEMA  etc) would greatly enhance data value/utility by publishing
vector WFS. This in turn increases the value of SVG since it is the
best/only open vector standard for the rendering part of public data chains:
Spatial database => OWS/WFS => browser/SVG

Service is even more valuable:
SVG rendering though only provides a small view at a time of the
underlying model and there is little value in scraping the location vectors
from the svg browser to attempt a reconstruction of the whole model. Why do
it since you would need to laboriously recreate and maintain a massive GIS
data structure? Better to pay a license fee or put up with advertising
aggravation for the benefit of the well maintained universal coverage on a
service provider's hardware. 
For example even though it is possible to download every tile of
every level of GoogleMap and steal their data why do it? The cost of
downloading and maintaining on locally purchased hardware far outweighs the
cost of using GoogleMap (especially since it works on the advertisement
model). 

Solution: less concern about protecting data and more attention to a
low service cost/benefit ratio.

Looking forward to public WFS services

randy


-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Andre M. Winter - Carto.net
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 6:30 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect
SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

hi,

it is a common practice in mapping to introduce errors in maps and GIS 
datasets in order to recognize them later as yours. there is no 
difference between desktop maps and paper maps.

but i don't think that it makes sense to laboriously scramble your data. 
the main problem is that after import, re-export, coordinate system 
transformation etc. it will be difficult to find the way back to some 
algorithm. it  is far better and easier to tile your data and send it 
out in some unknown projection and coordinate system. that way 
fraudulent people may only able to fit the tiles together and guess the 
underlaying coordinate system. this process is as stupid and time 
consuming as scanning and digitizing paper maps, so few people will do 
that. of couse, all this requires intelligent server side solutions.

on the other hand you are right: there is always a way of getting some 
valuable information out of SVG files on the internet. but anything can 
be stolen and reused...

--  

André M. Winter 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.

-   
Austria  
Phone: +43 5234 32732





Jeroen Vanattenhoven wrote:
> Ronan Oger schreef:
>   
>> Are you using GIS data or SVG pictures of the GIS model?
>> 
> We use SVG conversions of Shape files. We altered the layers of the map, 
> and will add additional information to the map (and interactivity).
>   
>> SVG is a model of a picture, whereas GIS is a model of geographic data.
>>
>> A picture of a car is not the same as the engineering drawing of a car.
And a 
>> screenshot of an Autocad drawing does not give away the car CAD drawing. 
>> There is loss in the conversion process, and the same happens with
GIS->SVG 
>> transformation.
>> 
> I'm wondering if the result of the conversion (svg picture) is not 
> important? It still contains some geographic data: rivers, borders, 
> roads, ... . As I've read here,
> some GIS companies probably insert a watermark (to the coordinates of 
> the river, border and road elements?). That would be very useful in my 
> opinion.
>   
>> Ronan




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