[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[kggsystem]

Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.

I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet 
Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes will 
follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF 
people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E stuff.

I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an Open 
Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it can 
do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative 
nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So by 
extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has 
nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates 
invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever else 
he invented. 

Kevin




--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another proprietary  
> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
> 
> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans, 
can want this.
> 
> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff  
> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they understand 
> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$, 
> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own. 
> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about 
> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool" 
> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever at 
> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing 
> they invented the web all over again.
> 
> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are  
> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of humanity,  
> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
> 
> Guy
> 
> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
> 
> > WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in 
that it
> > runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full
> > Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very  
> > useful.
> >
> > SVG Model
> >
> > 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
> > 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the 
scripts
> > are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> > 3) User is in Business
> >
> > WPF/E Model
> >
> > 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or 
XAML.
> > 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts 
are
> > activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> > 3) User is in Business
> >
> > Check it out, you might find it interesting
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers- 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > -or-
> > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and 
click "edit  
> > my membership"
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>




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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Andreas Neumann]

this might be an interesting target for the developers of cross 
browser 2D vectorgraphics toolkits (dojo, etc.) until IE properly 
supports SVG, which I hope they do soon, now that they already 
support similar technology.

I guess its more powerful than VML, is it?

Does WPF/E support declarative animation?

Does that WPF/E thing run in IE6 and IE7 without having to install 
additional software?

Andreas


--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "kggsystem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in that 
it 
> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full 
> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very 
useful.
> 
> SVG Model
> 
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the 
scripts 
> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> 3) User is in Business
> 
> WPF/E Model
> 
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or XAML.
> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts 
are 
> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> 3) User is in Business
> 
> Check it out, you might find it interesting
> 
> Kevin
>




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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Andreas Neumann]

> I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet 
> Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes 
will 

hm - I had no luck viewing WPF/E content on my Mac, despite its 
claims to support MacOSX. First it told me I have to use Firefox 
1.5.8. It did not like Firefox2. Then it told me, that I need a 
plugin, which it did not find.

> follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF 
> people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E 
stuff.

hopefully more. I don't see this WPF/E as an SVG replacement if it 
does not run in the common browsers and operating systems and is not 
based on open standards.


> I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an 
Open 
> Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it 
can 
> do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative 
> nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So by 
> extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has 

true - I would certainly prefer this WPF/E stuff over Macrodobe 
Flash, since its closer to the declarative way. However, I still hope 
that SVG succeeds in this area.

Andreas



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Andreas Neumann]

> hm - I had no luck viewing WPF/E content on my Mac, despite its 
> claims to support MacOSX. First it told me I have to use Firefox 
> 1.5.8. It did not like Firefox2. Then it told me, that I need a 
> plugin, which it did not find.

I finally installed the plugin on the mac. It needs a manual install. 
Automatic install does not work yet.

Performance is very disappointing, though. The page turn is slow and 
the video comes with a framerate of 2-3 frames per second.

My Computer is not the latest, its still a PowerPC, with 1GB Ram, 
1Ghz Processor.

Flash content runs slick on this machine.

Andreas



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[tony_ser]

Why ?
1. Firefox and Opera support is no where near complete compare to 
both Adobe SVG Viewer. It really limit the scope of the application 
you could develop with those 2 browser as target.

2. For IE, you need plugin anyway. And the best SVG viewer (Adobe) is 
dead.

If your application involves simple stuff which works fine in Firefox 
and Opera, and you only target less than 20% of the browser install 
base, go ahead with SVG.

I have been a SVG fan for a long time (for the exact same reason as 
Kevin), and did develop application with it. But since Adobe pull the 
plug, it is a whole different game.

Tony

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Why would I want to ask my Firefox and Opera-using clients to  
> download a plug-in to do something those browsers can already do  
> natively?
> 
> Maybe if all you really care about is Windows, then yeah, knock  
> yourself out.
> 
> A vote for proprietary technology in this case is a vote for more  
> corporate power. Yeah, I think M$ needs some more of that. I'm 
sure  
> they'll never abuse it. Let's all help M$ by adopting WPF/E over  
> equivalent open standard and open source alternatives!
> 
> Guy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 05/12/2006, at 4:47 PM, kggsystem wrote:
> 
> > Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.
> >
> > I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
> > Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes 
will
> > follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
> > people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E 
stuff.
> >
> > I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an 
Open
> > Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it 
can
> > do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
> > nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So 
by
> > extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
> > nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
> > invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever 
else
> > he invented.
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton  wrote:
> >>
> >> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another 
proprietary
> >> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
> >>
> >> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
> > can want this.
> >>
> >> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
> >> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they 
understand
> >> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
> >> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
> >> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
> >> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
> >> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever 
at
> >> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
> >> they invented the web all over again.
> >>
> >> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
> >> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of 
humanity,
> >> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
> >>
> >> Guy
> >>
> >> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
> >>
> >>> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
> > that it
> >>> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The 
Full
> >>> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
> >>> useful.
> >>>
> >>> SVG Model
> >>>
> >>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or 
SVG.
> >>> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the
> > scripts
> >>> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> >>> 3) User is in Business
> >>>
> >>> WPF/E Model
> >>>
> >>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
> > XAML.
> >>> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the 
scripts
> > are
> >>> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> >>> 3) User is in Business
> >>>
> >>> Check it out, you might find it interesting
> >>>
> >>> Kevin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> -or-
> >>> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
> > click "edit
> >>> my membership"
> >>> 
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers- 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > -or-
> > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and 
click "edit  
> > my membership"
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>




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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Andreas Neumann]

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tony_ser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Why ?
> 1. Firefox and Opera support is no where near complete compare to 
> both Adobe SVG Viewer. It really limit the scope of the application 
> you could develop with those 2 browser as target.

what, specifically are you missing in Opera? Please be specific and 
don't just say that its "no where near complete".

In my experience, Opera is already very complete  - not too much 
missing. It even does certain stuff in DOM that ASV isn't supporting.

> I have been a SVG fan for a long time (for the exact same reason as 
> Kevin), and did develop application with it. But since Adobe pull 
the 
> plug, it is a whole different game.

why is Adobe so important to SVG? IE is the only browser with no 
native SVG support. They have to support it soon if they don't want 
to loose more market share. Native SVG support in browsers is much 
better than a plugin anyway. With a plugin you are in this box and 
the Eolas case showed us what can happen to plugins ... lots of 
annoying stuff ...

Andreas



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Andreas Neumann]

> Well, I already create SVG applications, and while
> the various implementations are still short of being fully
> compliant with the w3.org standards, the overlap of what is already
> implemented has me already making money developing
> xbrowser SVG.

I can say the same about my applications. Most of it runs fine 
accross Opera 9, Firefox >1.5 and ASV, with Safari/Webkit soon to 
join the club.

Here are some more complex examples that work across browsers:

http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/
http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/
all of http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/gui/

Yes, there are some open issues, but none of them are too serious and 
not resolvable. If you take the time and report bugs or complain 
about missing features, I am sure that Opera and Firefox will react 
in a timely manner.

Andreas



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[tcpcoder]

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 06/12/2006, at 5:56 AM, tony_ser wrote:

> Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the  
> Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it  
> happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that  
> intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?
> 
> Guy

There are many business reasons I can think of for
keeping such a goal under wraps, although not being a mind
reader I don't know which reasons might be in play.

Well, the why they would do it is XML and all the places
they could market their products that they cannot now.
Additionally , if they don't reposition themselves,
nature abhors a vacuum  and someone will make the plug in.

Even as is , one can do flash like applications in SVG
and the growing maturity of the native implementations
in other browsers will simply make the ASV the ugly one
in the family but still workable.

FLASH will eventually become ever more irrelevant
as will all it's related tools if it decides not
to migrate to w3.org standards.




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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Jeff Schiller]

> > But you do know it has been possible, for quite some time, to render
> > core SVG instructions on the majority of desktops today, right?
> > http://deng.com.br/features/
> >
> > If you wish to improve the rendering instructions, then you can do
so...
> > it's an opensource SWF which contains the SVG code:
> > http://deng.com.br/support/

Unfortunately, as already mentioned the DENG project is still in its
infancy.  Static SVG content is one thing, but where SVG's power is in
interaction with the DOM and its scriptability.  

I think I've asked before, but couldn't find my post when searching: 
What would be the challenge in taking the Mozilla codebase and turning
that into an ActiveX control for IE that handles XHTML and SVG
content?  IE6 and 7 both don't support either MIME types, so this
would allow XHTML with SVG inline as well as SVG linked by reference
(HTML:object).  Get that deployed far enough and you could actually
see XHTML and SVG start to make inroads into the web.  Granted, it's
still a plugin, but at least it couldn't be killed by a corporation's
whim.

Of course, I'm sure I'm just being naive and this is not an easy task.



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Jeff Schiller]

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, T Rowley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mozilla as an ActiveX control already exists:
> 
>http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm
> 
> You'd still be stuck with the click-to-active behavior of plugins in IE.

The other options outside of an IE plugin are:
1) wait until IE natively implements SVG (and XHTML while we're at it)
2) wait until another browser becomes the dominant UA in web browsing
3) wait until WPF/E becomes widely deployed in IE, write a library to
go from SVG to XAML (note: does this also mean the WPF/E is under the
same click-to-activate behavior in IE6?)
4) update DENG to support full SVG (including scripting)
5) use Dojo2D or another Ajaxy toolkit that supports SVG.  To my
knowledge, Dojo2D doesn't yet support transforming declarative SVG
into VML, it's all done procedurally via scripting, if I'm not
mistaken, which means it's potentially slow, though I haven't tried it)

Anyway, looks like the Mozilla option is "almost there" (from an
armchair perspective).  But the control/project hasn't been updated in
almost a year, I've emailed Adam to ask if he's still active on it. 
I'd also ask where's the Moz 1.8.1 version of the control, but a Moz
1.8.0 version of the plugin would still be worthwhile.

Next, how does one go about configuring an ActiveX control to handle
specific MIME types as a plugin in IE?



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[tony_ser]

Well, you just show me examples to highlight the xbrowser SVG 
incompatibility.

http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/ does not work on Opera 9.8031
http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/ take forever to load (Sean 
also mention that)

2 out of 3 don't work xbrowser. And the 3rd is a widgetlibrary not a 
real application.

The browsers are still rendering them differently or have problem 
with it. Both the SVG content and browsers will get better but the 
applications that you point out are not usable in firefor or Opera at 
this moment. That is my point.


>why is Adobe so important to SVG? IE is the only browser with no
>native SVG support.
I think you answered your question. Adobe is important because IE is 
the browser with no native SVG support. I am not cheering for IE on 
lack of SVG support but the reality is IE still used by the majority 
and if we need to develop an applcation right now, we need a capable 
plugin.

>They have to support it soon if they don't want
>to loose more market share. Native SVG support in browsers is much
>better than a plugin anyway. With a plugin you are in this box and
>the Eolas case showed us what can happen to plugins ... lots of
>annoying stuff ...
I am not arguing that plugin is better. I am just stating the fact 
that we don't have it in IE at this point. Again, I am not cheering 
for it.

Doc wrote:
"I think your just sitting too close to the screen, and need to pull 
back some to see the larger picture of why Adobe having acquired the 
Flash player would want to shift the SVG effort into that product and 
discontinue the ASV"

I can see this being your wish (and our wishes as well), but please 
don't treat it like a fact. It may still happen but there is no sign 
of it happening. You may want to sit a bit closer to reality.



--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Neumann" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Well, I already create SVG applications, and while
> > the various implementations are still short of being fully
> > compliant with the w3.org standards, the overlap of what is 
already
> > implemented has me already making money developing
> > xbrowser SVG.
> 
> I can say the same about my applications. Most of it runs fine 
> accross Opera 9, Firefox >1.5 and ASV, with Safari/Webkit soon to 
> join the club.
> 
> Here are some more complex examples that work across browsers:
> 
> http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/
> http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/
> all of http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/gui/
> 
> Yes, there are some open issues, but none of them are too serious 
and 
> not resolvable. If you take the time and report bugs or complain 
> about missing features, I am sure that Opera and Firefox will react 
> in a timely manner.
> 
> Andreas
>




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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[pilatfr]

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tony_ser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well, you just show me examples to highlight the xbrowser SVG 
> incompatibility.
> 
> http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/ does not work on Opera 9.8031
> http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/ take forever to load (Sean 
> also mention that)

These two links run perfectly in Opera 9.10 Révision 8649 !
And with same rapidity as with IE7 + Adobe plugin ... 

Michel

PS IE6 + Adobe plugin remain best for rapidity ...


> 2 out of 3 don't work xbrowser. And the 3rd is a widgetlibrary not 
a 
> real application.
> 
> The browsers are still rendering them differently or have problem 
> with it. Both the SVG content and browsers will get better but the 
> applications that you point out are not usable in firefor or Opera 
at 
> this moment. That is my point.
> 
> 
> >why is Adobe so important to SVG? IE is the only browser with no
> >native SVG support.
> I think you answered your question. Adobe is important because IE 
is 
> the browser with no native SVG support. I am not cheering for IE on 
> lack of SVG support but the reality is IE still used by the 
majority 
> and if we need to develop an applcation right now, we need a 
capable 
> plugin.
> 
> >They have to support it soon if they don't want
> >to loose more market share. Native SVG support in browsers is much
> >better than a plugin anyway. With a plugin you are in this box and
> >the Eolas case showed us what can happen to plugins ... lots of
> >annoying stuff ...
> I am not arguing that plugin is better. I am just stating the fact 
> that we don't have it in IE at this point. Again, I am not cheering 
> for it.
> 
> Doc wrote:
> "I think your just sitting too close to the screen, and need to 
pull 
> back some to see the larger picture of why Adobe having acquired 
the 
> Flash player would want to shift the SVG effort into that product 
and 
> discontinue the ASV"
> 
> I can see this being your wish (and our wishes as well), but please 
> don't treat it like a fact. It may still happen but there is no 
sign 
> of it happening. You may want to sit a bit closer to reality.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Neumann" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I already create SVG applications, and while
> > > the various implementations are still short of being fully
> > > compliant with the w3.org standards, the overlap of what is 
> already
> > > implemented has me already making money developing
> > > xbrowser SVG.
> > 
> > I can say the same about my applications. Most of it runs fine 
> > accross Opera 9, Firefox >1.5 and ASV, with Safari/Webkit soon to 
> > join the club.
> > 
> > Here are some more complex examples that work across browsers:
> > 
> > http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/
> > http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/
> > all of http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/gui/
> > 
> > Yes, there are some open issues, but none of them are too serious 
> and 
> > not resolvable. If you take the time and report bugs or complain 
> > about missing features, I am sure that Opera and Firefox will 
react 
> > in a timely manner.
> > 
> > Andreas
> >
>




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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[brucerindahl]

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "pilatfr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tony_ser"  wrote:
> >
> > Well, you just show me examples to highlight the xbrowser SVG 
> > incompatibility.
> > 
> > http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/ does not work on Opera 9.8031
> > http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/ take forever to load (Sean 
> > also mention that)
> 
> These two links run perfectly in Opera 9.10 Révision 8649 !
> And with same rapidity as with IE7 + Adobe plugin ... 
> 
> Michel
> 
> PS IE6 + Adobe plugin remain best for rapidity ...

and the speed is about the same in Minefield (FF 3 alpha).

Bruce



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Jeff Schiller]

Hi Jon,

Yes, an IE plugin is the 6th option.  Not to be pedantic, but I did 
say "The other options outside of an IE plugin are" ;)  

The "IE plugin" option covers a lot of other possible solutions in 
and of itself.  Emiasys' Renesis is one of those, but I'm afraid they 
are not moving fast enough to capture market share before ASV dies 
out.  Right now they are doing a rewrite to restructure their code 
for performance improvements...  I would rather see them fully 
implement a scriptable SVG profile first...

That's why I'm thinking of other open-source solutions (i.e. Mozilla, 
WebKit, KHTML) that already include scripting, DOM support, etc (even 
if other very important features are not there, such as declarative 
animation).

Regards,
Jeff

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Ferraiolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> Good summary of the options. There is one more option - there is 
always the
> faint hope that someone will provide an SVG plugin to replace ASV. 
(Maybe
> you are thinking about doing something in this direction with 
Mozilla.)
> 
> In terms of Dojo2D, my understanding aligns with yours in that it 
does not
> yet support "declarative SVG" (i.e., SVG markup) and instead 
requires
> building an SVG model in JavaScript via their API calls.
> 
> In looking at the dojo 0.4 source code, Dojo2D as it stands today 
involves
> two performance intensive-transformations. First, if you start with 
SVG
> markup, you will have to parse that markup in order to build the 
Dojo2D
> data structures via their API calls. Second, the Dojo2D data 
structures
> will need to be transformed into either SVG or VML within the 
browser so
> that the graphics will render. There needs to be some accelerated 
code
> paths for Dojo2D to be viable for complicated graphics, such as 
mapping.
> For example, on Firefox, why not pass through the SVG markup 
directly to
> the browser without building the Dojo2D data structures, and for 
IE, why
> not use client-side XSLT to transform SVG markup into VML? Another
> performance enhancement would be for Dojo to provide a utility which
> converts SVG markup into their Dojo2D data structures by invoking 
their
> built-in XML parser (which will build a private DOM image within
> JavaScript) and then converting this into their private Dojo2D data
> structures. All of this is easier said than done. I don't know what 
Dojo's
> plans are for these enhancements. Of course, it is an open source 
projects,
> so anyone can contribute if they are motivated and have the time.
> 
> Jon
> 
> Jon Ferraiolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Web Architect, Emerging Technologies
> IBM, Menlo Park, CA
> Mobile: +1-650-926-5865
> 
> 
> 
>

>  "Jeff 
Schiller"   
>  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>  
tmail.com> To 
>  Sent by:  svg-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
>  svg-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  cc 
>  
hoogroups.com 
>
Subject 
>[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E 
Goes 
>  12/06/2006 09:24  Beta  Community preview 
available   
>  AMfor 
download
>

>

>  Please respond 
to 
>  svg-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
hoogroups.com   
>

>

> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, T Rowley  wrote:
> > Mozilla as an ActiveX control already exists:
> >
> >http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm
> >
> > You'd still be stuck with the click-to-active behavior of plugins 
in IE.
> 
> The other options outside of an IE plugin are:
> 1) wait until IE natively implements SVG (and XHTML while we're at 
it)
> 2) wait until another browser becomes the dominant UA in web 
browsing
> 3) wait until WPF/E becomes widely deployed in IE, write a library 
to
> go from SVG to XAML (note: does this also mean the WPF/E is under 
the
> same click-to-activate behavior in IE6?)
> 4) update DENG to support full SVG (including scripting)
> 5) use Dojo2D or another Ajaxy toolkit that supports SVG.  To my
> knowledge, Dojo2D doesn't yet support transforming declarative SVG
> into VML, it's all done proce

[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[tony_ser]

Sorry about the Opera version, the browse told me I was using the
latest. Until I check the opera site

Anyway, appreciate if you guys could tell me what is wrong with the
following svg.

http://www.sfu.ca/~jkk/svg/Untitled.svg

It is generated so may contain more attributes than necessary. Also
heavily on viewBox. I need to keep those viewBox coordinates since
there will be javascript modifying the attributes in generic way.

Compare with ASV.
Firefox:
The "OFF" text is tiny.
The inner image does not align with the bigger image.

Opera:
The inner image does not align with the bigger image.
The text is missing.
The whole red pump is missing.

This is only a simplified sample.

Thanks!
Tony

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "brucerindahl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "pilatfr"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tony_ser"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, you just show me examples to highlight the xbrowser SVG 
> > > incompatibility.
> > > 
> > > http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/ does not work on Opera 9.8031
> > > http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/ take forever to load (Sean 
> > > also mention that)
> > 
> > These two links run perfectly in Opera 9.10 Révision 8649 !
> > And with same rapidity as with IE7 + Adobe plugin ... 
> > 
> > Michel
> > 
> > PS IE6 + Adobe plugin remain best for rapidity ...
> 
> and the speed is about the same in Minefield (FF 3 alpha).
> 
> Bruce
>




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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[brucerindahl]

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tony_ser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sorry about the Opera version, the browse told me I was using the
> latest. Until I check the opera site
> 
> Anyway, appreciate if you guys could tell me what is wrong with the
> following svg.
> 
> http://www.sfu.ca/~jkk/svg/Untitled.svg
> 
> It is generated so may contain more attributes than necessary. Also
> heavily on viewBox. I need to keep those viewBox coordinates since
> there will be javascript modifying the attributes in generic way.
> 
> Compare with ASV.
> Firefox:
> The "OFF" text is tiny.
> The inner image does not align with the bigger image.
> 
> Opera:
> The inner image does not align with the bigger image.
> The text is missing.
> The whole red pump is missing.
> 
> This is only a simplified sample.
> 
> Thanks!
> Tony
> 
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "brucerindahl"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "pilatfr"  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tony_ser"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Well, you just show me examples to highlight the xbrowser SVG 
> > > > incompatibility.
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/ does not work on Opera 9.8031
> > > > http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/ take forever to load
(Sean 
> > > > also mention that)
> > > 
> > > These two links run perfectly in Opera 9.10 Révision 8649 !
> > > And with same rapidity as with IE7 + Adobe plugin ... 
> > > 
> > > Michel
> > > 
> > > PS IE6 + Adobe plugin remain best for rapidity ...
> > 
> > and the speed is about the same in Minefield (FF 3 alpha).
> > 
> > Bruce
> >
>

Tony
Please start a new tread with this.  A quick spot check shows a few
things.
I don't know what font-weight:400 means.  Try font-weight:bold or
something similar.  On the same line change font-size:320 to
font-size:320pt.  See:
http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/
for a great reference on working with Mozilla and why they did what
they did.
Finally search for "translate(--" in the file.  Mozilla doesn't like
this at all - change to the obvious "translate(-".
This will get most of your file rendering in three browsers but still
still with some problems.
The other issues need to be discussed on another thread.  The may be
bugs - they may your code.  At this point you will get a lot of help
from people with far more talent than me.  Trust me on this.
Please try to get this working on the three browsers.  It is much
easier after the first one - I have been there.
Bruce Rindahl



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Andreas Neumann]

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "tony_ser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well, you just show me examples to highlight the xbrowser SVG 
> incompatibility.
> 
> http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/ does not work on Opera 9.8031
> http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/ take forever to load (Sean 
> also mention that)

they work perfectly fine in Opera. You may have an old version of 
Opera. The newest version is always available from http://
my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/ - Specifically, they fixed a problem 
with the geophotomap a few weeks/months ago.

Andreas



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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[tcpcoder]

Since none of the SVG implementations are all the way,
there is indeed room for another player, but I don't
think there is room for another spec on this issue.

If you aim for w3.org spec support of SVG , I might
have some interest and who knows I might even help. but if your
not going to use w3.org specs , I'm not even hoing to waste my
time.


--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "kggsystem" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in that it 
> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full 
> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very useful.
> 
> SVG Model
> 
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts 
> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
> 3) User is in Business
> 
> WPF/E Model
> 
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or XAML.
> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts are 
> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
> 3) User is in Business
> 
> Check it out, you might find it interesting
> 
> Kevin
>




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[svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[domenico_strazzullo]

Jeff's idea/proposal of "taking the Mozilla codebase and  turning 
that into an ActiveX control for IE" seems to be taking shape. No 
doubt it is a challenge. 

The challenge is to get a consequent number of senior programmers to 
commit to such a project. We all know that senior programmers are 
busy people and have already given their share but this task requires 
an efficiency level at least equal to that of Mr Ferraiolo and his 
acolytes while making ASV.

The project would need to be terminated in a short time, the reasons 
for this delay being short having been already exposed in some posts 
on this and other threads.

If necessary, let's found a committee for the rescuing of SVG. Let's 
ask for sponsoring.

I hope it's clear for everyone that this is a last chance to gather.
In the latest post from the News items syndicated from svg.org. on 
the SVG home page, at w3c.org, one can read:

"and there is hope that by the time Adobe SVG Viewer is discontinued 
there will be mature alternatives for all the Internet Explorer 
users."

Now, everyone knows that hope is good enough for artists, losers and 
other types of believers, but not for business people. We can sit 
here and hope, or we can try to do something. Besides, I don't think 
there's that much of hope.

There is no doubt that there is a battle MS vs Adobe. One can still 
naively believe that Adobe "might", at some mysterious point, 
integrate SVG rendering in Flash. The reality is more like Adobe were 
anticipating on the latest MS move to actually kill ASV and, as a 
direct consequence, SVG. The elimination of SVG suits well both 
sides. It is flatly foolish to hope for any other issue from this 
confrontation. Alea tracta est. And we, developers, designers and 
programmers, will have lost millions of hours of investement and 
evangelizing in this process. Our clients will have lost their 
investment too. I can personally testify of a big client for whom I 
developed a thick application early 2006, dropping it, once it 
reached maturity, because of inconsistencies of the Xplatform 
situation. In regard to Opera I must say that I am sort of admirative 
of the fact that it rendered perfectly, unfortunately once all the 
features were implemented it can take up to several dozens seconds 
per action, with the CPU load constantly at 100%. I meant to present 
this application at the defunct Victoria Open, but I cannot put it 
out as a demo. It is fully compliant and spins perfectly with ASV on 
Mac or PC. Here's the abstract: "Demonstration and study of the 
realization process of grafting a mini operating system, or 
subsystem, onto an application using SVG. The script controlled SVG 
interface allows engineers to visually monitor programming procedures 
happening in parallel in microchips." I guess it would take a couple 
of years before Opera or Firefox will make it. It's fantastic that FF 
and Opera are working on native, but it all came too late, and 
perhaps they can't put in the necessary resources.

Sure we knew the risk from the beginning but this is no reason for 
letting a beautiful thing like SVG die out so miserably. Up to now 
we've only seen the tip of the iceberg of the SVG capabilities. 
Whatever whoever may say there are no other solutions that can 
compare to that power and beauty.

Please respond and subscribe for actively rescuing SVG.

Domenico


--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> How hard would it be to package this as an "SVG plugin"? ie 
package  
> it in a windows installer a user could download and run and which  
> would install itself and behave as the ASV plugin does today?
> 
> Guy
> 
> On 07/12/2006, at 3:53 AM, T Rowley wrote:
> 
> > On 12/6/06 10:36 AM, Jeff Schiller wrote:
> >> I think I've asked before, but couldn't find my post when 
searching:
> >> What would be the challenge in taking the Mozilla codebase and  
> >> turning
> >> that into an ActiveX control for IE that handles XHTML and SVG
> >> content?  IE6 and 7 both don't support either MIME types, so this
> >> would allow XHTML with SVG inline as well as SVG linked by 
reference
> >> (HTML:object).  Get that deployed far enough and you could 
actually
> >> see XHTML and SVG start to make inroads into the web.  Granted, 
it's
> >> still a plugin, but at least it couldn't be killed by a 
corporation's
> >> whim.
> >
> > Mozilla as an ActiveX control already exists:
> >
> >http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm
> >
> > You'd still be stuck with the click-to-active behavior of 
plugins  
> > in IE.
> >
> > -tor
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers- 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > -or-
> > visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and 
click "edit  
> > my membership"
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>




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Y

Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Guy Morton]

Why would I want to ask my Firefox and Opera-using clients to  
download a plug-in to do something those browsers can already do  
natively?

Maybe if all you really care about is Windows, then yeah, knock  
yourself out.

A vote for proprietary technology in this case is a vote for more  
corporate power. Yeah, I think M$ needs some more of that. I'm sure  
they'll never abuse it. Let's all help M$ by adopting WPF/E over  
equivalent open standard and open source alternatives!

Guy




On 05/12/2006, at 4:47 PM, kggsystem wrote:

> Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.
>
> I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
> Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes will
> follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
> people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E stuff.
>
> I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an Open
> Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it can
> do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
> nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So by
> extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
> nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
> invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever else
> he invented.
>
> Kevin
>
>
>
>
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another proprietary
>> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
>>
>> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
> can want this.
>>
>> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
>> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they understand
>> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
>> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
>> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
>> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
>> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever at
>> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
>> they invented the web all over again.
>>
>> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
>> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of humanity,
>> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
>>
>> Guy
>>
>> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
>>
>>> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
> that it
>>> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The Full
>>> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
>>> useful.
>>>
>>> SVG Model
>>>
>>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or SVG.
>>> 2) Files (HTML, SVG, JS, CSS) are returned, rendered, and the
> scripts
>>> are activated. Javascript can manipulate the SVG DOM to do stuff
>>> 3) User is in Business
>>>
>>> WPF/E Model
>>>
>>> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
> XAML.
>>> 2) Files (HTML, XAML, JS) are returned, rendered, and the scripts
> are
>>> activated. Javascript can manipulate the WPF/E DOM to do stuff
>>> 3) User is in Business
>>>
>>> Check it out, you might find it interesting
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers-
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>>> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and
> click "edit
>>> my membership"
>>> 
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> -
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>
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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Bjoern Hoehrmann]

* Andreas Neumann wrote:
>I guess its more powerful than VML, is it?

Mostly.

>Does WPF/E support declarative animation?

Yes.

>Does that WPF/E thing run in IE6 and IE7 without having to install 
>additional software?

Of course not.
-- 
Björn Höhrmann · mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] · http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de
Weinh. Str. 22 · Telefon: +49(0)621/4309674 · http://www.bjoernsworld.de
68309 Mannheim · PGP Pub. KeyID: 0xA4357E78 · http://www.websitedev.de/ 


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Jason Robinson]

Hi list,
I thought WPF/E was just a grab at December Advertisement networks of
computer users with an announcement of 'open' SDK of 5.1MB for XP2 or Vista
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2b01ec7e-c3b8-47cc-
b12a-67c30191c3aa&DisplayLang=en that is downloaded from a DOCTYPE HTML
PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" page with the 'wonderful'
mine-type of MSI format.  At the same time I can find a add to upgrade my
os, and perhaps later new computer to run my upgraded vista? (I am sure m$
hide that from advertisers and would never boast how many users they target
with online and offline advertisements like AOL CD mailouts while getting my
government and others to create laws preventing Spam)

I can only think that "within a year" simply is evidence of 'the current m$
grab' at bogging down open standards in billions of line of code while
Preventing the porting for a year to target sales on Server environments
first, users are second with a line of offline tools.

I think the below is somewhat incorrect in that a Server is required for
most XAML returns of data unless you can hand code it.  In WPF/E step 2 the
function is broken because m$ "recommends" that you use "the related m$
server product" to return XAML.  As such its just a 'marketing term' for the
current m$ grab at cgi ssi.

While I am dumb simple user, I am not that dumb - The only thing invented
here is greed, simple, pure, ...
:-)
Jason

- Original Message -
From: "Guy Morton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview
available for download


> Why would I want to ask my Firefox and Opera-using clients to
> download a plug-in to do something those browsers can already do
> natively?
>
> Maybe if all you really care about is Windows, then yeah, knock
> yourself out.
>
> A vote for proprietary technology in this case is a vote for more
> corporate power. Yeah, I think M$ needs some more of that. I'm sure
> they'll never abuse it. Let's all help M$ by adopting WPF/E over
> equivalent open standard and open source alternatives!
>
> Guy
>
>
>
>
> On 05/12/2006, at 4:47 PM, kggsystem wrote:
>
> > Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.
> >
> > I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
> > Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes will
> > follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
> > people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E stuff.
> >
> > I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an Open
> > Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it can
> > do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
> > nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So by
> > extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
> > nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
> > invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever else
> > he invented.
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another proprietary
> >> model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.
> >>
> >> I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
> > can want this.
> >>
> >> Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
> >> though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they understand
> >> the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
> >> is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
> >> It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
> >> their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
> >> stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever at
> >> spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
> >> they invented the web all over again.
> >>
> >> Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
> >> eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of humanity,
> >> instead of reinventing everything as their own.
> >>
> >> Guy
> >>
> >> On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:
> >>
> >>> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
&

Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Doc]

tony_ser wrote:
> Why ?
> 1. Firefox and Opera support is no where near complete compare to 
> both Adobe SVG Viewer. It really limit the scope of the application 
> you could develop with those 2 browser as target.
>   
Well, I already create SVG applications, and while
the various implementations are still short of being fully
compliant with the w3.org standards, the overlap of what is already
implemented has me already making money developing
xbrowser SVG.

> 2. For IE, you need plugin anyway. And the best SVG viewer (Adobe) is 
> dead.
>   
Personally I'm glad that M$ is using a plug-in as it avoids them butchering
yet another spec. As to the Adobe viewer being dead , I think that
is probably but a half truth. Yes  , in 2008 the Adobe Viewer will cease
( That's the true part ). Since Adobe bought Macromedia, that probably 
means
they will take the SVG parser and slap it onto an existing Macromedia 
product
as otherwise they would need to maintain two code trees. Being as the
flash plugin is in most computers , shifting the SVG effort there would
see an explosion in SVG support.

> If your application involves simple stuff which works fine in Firefox 
> and Opera, and you only target less than 20% of the browser install 
> base, go ahead with SVG.
>
> I have been a SVG fan for a long time (for the exact same reason as 
> Kevin), and did develop application with it. But since Adobe pull the 
> plug, it is a whole different game.
>
> Tony
>   

I think your just sitting too close to the screen, and need to pull back 
some
to see the larger picture of why Adobe having acquired the Flash player
would want to shift the SVG effort into that product and discontinue
the ASV

Doc



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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Guy Morton]

On 06/12/2006, at 5:56 AM, tony_ser wrote:

> Why ?
> 1. Firefox and Opera support is no where near complete compare to
> both Adobe SVG Viewer. It really limit the scope of the application
> you could develop with those 2 browser as target.

Well I'm not sure I agree. I've built a pretty sophisticated app that  
runs in all three.

> 2. For IE, you need plugin anyway. And the best SVG viewer (Adobe) is
> dead.

Well yes, it's dead in 2008. I agree that we need a good solution for  
IE sometime soon. What shits me to tears is that MS clearly could  
provide that support if they chose to, but instead they release  
something that "embraces and extends" concepts they've ripped off  
from the open source community. Personally I'll be in the cold cold  
ground before I give that sort of behaviour my support.

Personally, I'd support Flash over WPF/E, via a dojo type solution  
that will render to whatever is available in the browser. If that  
gives me support via Flash in IE and via SVG in FF and opera, then  
I'm happy and MS can go fcuk themselves... :-)

> If your application involves simple stuff which works fine in Firefox
> and Opera, and you only target less than 20% of the browser install
> base, go ahead with SVG.

That's not the only answer to the problem of IE not supporting SVG.

> I have been a SVG fan for a long time (for the exact same reason as
> Kevin), and did develop application with it. But since Adobe pull the
> plug, it is a whole different game.

It's a slightly different game. ASV was always likely to go away  
eventually and we've all known that for a while.

Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the  
Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it  
happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that  
intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?

Guy




>
> Tony
>
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Why would I want to ask my Firefox and Opera-using clients to
>> download a plug-in to do something those browsers can already do
>> natively?
>>
>> Maybe if all you really care about is Windows, then yeah, knock
>> yourself out.
>>
>> A vote for proprietary technology in this case is a vote for more
>> corporate power. Yeah, I think M$ needs some more of that. I'm
> sure
>> they'll never abuse it. Let's all help M$ by adopting WPF/E over
>> equivalent open standard and open source alternatives!
>>
>> Guy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/12/2006, at 4:47 PM, kggsystem wrote:
>>
>>> Well, too bad you won't give it a spin.
>>>
>>> I forgot to mention that the WPF/E Beta has runtimes for Internet
>>> Explorer and Firefox on the PC, and for the MAC. Linux runtimes
> will
>>> follow within a year. Makes me wonder how much more effort the FF
>>> people will want to put into SVG now that they have this WPF/E
> stuff.
>>>
>>> I have been a SVG fan for a long time, but not because it was an
> Open
>>> Standard spec'd by comittee. I am a fan of SVG because of what it
> can
>>> do for me and my customers. I am a fan because of it's declarative
>>> nature, elegant schema, rich feature set, and scriptable DOM. So
> by
>>> extension I am a fan of this WPF/E stuff too. Same model. It has
>>> nothing to do with blinders or gullibility or that Bill Gates
>>> invented the Web, Cellular Telephone, and Transistor or whatever
> else
>>> he invented.
>>>
>>> Kevin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Guy Morton  wrote:

 Nup, I'm not the least bit interested in that. Another
> proprietary
 model for delivering "rich web apps"? no thanks.

 I can't believe *anyone*, except die-hard and blinkered M$ fans,
>>> can want this.

 Sounds like they ought to be able to support SVG using this stuff
 though, and pretty easily I'd have thought. Clearly they
> understand
 the problem space well enough. What's lacking, as always with M$,
 is the will to give support to a technology they can't own.
 It's my fervent hope that sooner or later this will bring about
 their demise, however, breathless announcements about how "cool"
 stuff like this is  indicates to me that M$ are as good as ever
> at
 spinning a line for the gullible. They'll have everyone believing
 they invented the web all over again.

 Let's hope this goes the way of "Microsoft Network", and they are
 eventually forced to throw their lot in with the rest of
> humanity,
 instead of reinventing everything as their own.

 Guy

 On 05/12/2006, at 6:56 AM, kggsystem wrote:

> WPF/E is much more closer to SVG than the full fledged WPF, in
>>> that it
> runs "loose markup" with a scripting model, in a browser. The
> Full
> Fledged WPF really requires a compilation step before it is very
> useful.
>
> SVG Model
>
> 1) User in Browser points to an URL that might be HTML and/or
> SVG.
> 2) Files (HTML

Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[John Dowdell]

Guy Morton wrote:
> Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the  
> Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it  
> happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that  
> intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?

I haven't seen any announcements either. Player size still undergoes 
vigorous internal debate, though.

But you do know it has been possible, for quite some time, to render 
core SVG instructions on the majority of desktops today, right?
http://deng.com.br/features/

If you wish to improve the rendering instructions, then you can do so... 
it's an opensource SWF which contains the SVG code:
http://deng.com.br/support/

(Trivia point: The Macromedia Flash Lite 1.1+ libraries for mobile have 
the option for an SVG-Tiny compliant rendering engine, but I do not know 
of any manufacturers who have deployed that option.)

Summary: There's already a cross-platform, cross-browser engine deployed 
to the world's desktops today, which has the capability to render SVG 
content. We just need to turn that capability into practice, that's all

jd






-- 
John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[guy]

I don't see any support in Deng for scripting or bitmaps. This would be a
show-stopper for us, sadly.


Quoting John Dowdell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Guy Morton wrote:
>> Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the
>> Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it
>> happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that
>> intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?
>
> I haven't seen any announcements either. Player size still undergoes
> vigorous internal debate, though.
>
> But you do know it has been possible, for quite some time, to render
> core SVG instructions on the majority of desktops today, right?
> http://deng.com.br/features/
>
> If you wish to improve the rendering instructions, then you can do so...
> it's an opensource SWF which contains the SVG code:
> http://deng.com.br/support/
>
> (Trivia point: The Macromedia Flash Lite 1.1+ libraries for mobile have
> the option for an SVG-Tiny compliant rendering engine, but I do not know
> of any manufacturers who have deployed that option.)
>
> Summary: There's already a cross-platform, cross-browser engine deployed
> to the world's desktops today, which has the capability to render SVG
> content. We just need to turn that capability into practice, that's all
>
> jd
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
> Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
> Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
> Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
> Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my 
> membership"
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>





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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[guy]

Isn't that funny...I almost invoked your name today in that post 
john...you must
have picked up the vibes from the morphogenetic field.

Deng sounds interesting. I'll look into it. Will Adobe look at sinking 
any funds
into its development?

Guy


Quoting John Dowdell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Guy Morton wrote:
>> Re: the suggestion that Adobe will build support for SVG into the
>> Flash plugin, that's a tantalising prospect, but I can't see it
>> happening in our lifetimes. Why would Adobe not have announced that
>> intention before now, if that was their plan? Why would they do it?
>
> I haven't seen any announcements either. Player size still undergoes
> vigorous internal debate, though.
>
> But you do know it has been possible, for quite some time, to render
> core SVG instructions on the majority of desktops today, right?
> http://deng.com.br/features/
>
> If you wish to improve the rendering instructions, then you can do so...
> it's an opensource SWF which contains the SVG code:
> http://deng.com.br/support/
>
> (Trivia point: The Macromedia Flash Lite 1.1+ libraries for mobile have
> the option for an SVG-Tiny compliant rendering engine, but I do not know
> of any manufacturers who have deployed that option.)
>
> Summary: There's already a cross-platform, cross-browser engine deployed
> to the world's desktops today, which has the capability to render SVG
> content. We just need to turn that capability into practice, that's all
>
> jd
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> John Dowdell . Adobe Developer Support . San Francisco CA USA
> Weblog: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd
> Aggregator: http://weblogs.macromedia.com/mxna
> Technotes: http://www.macromedia.com/support/
> Spam killed my private email -- public record is best, thanks.
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my 
> membership"
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>





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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[TheMountainScene]

Hi Andreas,

It is true, the Yosemite map does work in FF, but not really. Unless I'm 
missing something, it is laboriously slow. Same problem I've been 
having. I submitted it as a bug well over a year ago, but nothing. The 
response I got was to keep it under 300k. If I'm limited to 300k, I'm 
not interested. Either way, I'm disappointed. I thought for sure Mozilla 
would have addressed this by now. If my maps would work as fast in 
Mozilla as they do IE, I'd be content. But as it stands now, it ain't 
happening, and I'm loosing faith that SVG will be viable for what I want 
to use it for once the Adobe viewer is thrown to dust bin.

Sean

Andreas Neumann wrote:
>
> > Well, I already create SVG applications, and while
> > the various implementations are still short of being fully
> > compliant with the w3.org standards, the overlap of what is already
> > implemented has me already making money developing
> > xbrowser SVG.
>
> I can say the same about my applications. Most of it runs fine
> accross Opera 9, Firefox >1.5 and ASV, with Safari/Webkit soon to
> join the club.
>
> Here are some more complex examples that work across browsers:
>
> http://www.geofoto.ch/geophotomap/ 
> http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/ 
> 
> all of http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/gui/ 
> 
>
> Yes, there are some open issues, but none of them are too serious and
> not resolvable. If you take the time and report bugs or complain
> about missing features, I am sure that Opera and Firefox will react
> in a timely manner.
>
> Andreas
>
>  


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[T Rowley]

On 12/6/06 10:36 AM, Jeff Schiller wrote:
> I think I've asked before, but couldn't find my post when searching: 
> What would be the challenge in taking the Mozilla codebase and turning
> that into an ActiveX control for IE that handles XHTML and SVG
> content?  IE6 and 7 both don't support either MIME types, so this
> would allow XHTML with SVG inline as well as SVG linked by reference
> (HTML:object).  Get that deployed far enough and you could actually
> see XHTML and SVG start to make inroads into the web.  Granted, it's
> still a plugin, but at least it couldn't be killed by a corporation's
> whim.

Mozilla as an ActiveX control already exists:

   http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm

You'd still be stuck with the click-to-active behavior of plugins in IE.

-tor


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Jon Ferraiolo]

Hi Jeff,
Good summary of the options. There is one more option - there is always the
faint hope that someone will provide an SVG plugin to replace ASV. (Maybe
you are thinking about doing something in this direction with Mozilla.)

In terms of Dojo2D, my understanding aligns with yours in that it does not
yet support "declarative SVG" (i.e., SVG markup) and instead requires
building an SVG model in JavaScript via their API calls.

In looking at the dojo 0.4 source code, Dojo2D as it stands today involves
two performance intensive-transformations. First, if you start with SVG
markup, you will have to parse that markup in order to build the Dojo2D
data structures via their API calls. Second, the Dojo2D data structures
will need to be transformed into either SVG or VML within the browser so
that the graphics will render. There needs to be some accelerated code
paths for Dojo2D to be viable for complicated graphics, such as mapping.
For example, on Firefox, why not pass through the SVG markup directly to
the browser without building the Dojo2D data structures, and for IE, why
not use client-side XSLT to transform SVG markup into VML? Another
performance enhancement would be for Dojo to provide a utility which
converts SVG markup into their Dojo2D data structures by invoking their
built-in XML parser (which will build a private DOM image within
JavaScript) and then converting this into their private Dojo2D data
structures. All of this is easier said than done. I don't know what Dojo's
plans are for these enhancements. Of course, it is an open source projects,
so anyone can contribute if they are motivated and have the time.

Jon

Jon Ferraiolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Web Architect, Emerging Technologies
IBM, Menlo Park, CA
Mobile: +1-650-926-5865



   
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--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, T Rowley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mozilla as an ActiveX control already exists:
>
>http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm
>
> You'd still be stuck with the click-to-active behavior of plugins in IE.

The other options outside of an IE plugin are:
1) wait until IE natively implements SVG (and XHTML while we're at it)
2) wait until another browser becomes the dominant UA in web browsing
3) wait until WPF/E becomes widely deployed in IE, write a library to
go from SVG to XAML (note: does this also mean the WPF/E is under the
same click-to-activate behavior in IE6?)
4) update DENG to support full SVG (including scripting)
5) use Dojo2D or another Ajaxy toolkit that supports SVG.  To my
knowledge, Dojo2D doesn't yet support transforming declarative SVG
into VML, it's all done procedurally via scripting, if I'm not
mistaken, which means it's potentially slow, though I haven't tried it)

Anyway, looks like the Mozilla option is "almost there" (from an
armchair perspective).  But the control/project hasn't been updated in
almost a year, I've emailed Adam to ask if he's still active on it.
I'd also ask where's the Moz 1.8.1 version of the control, but a Moz
1.8.0 version of the plugin would still be worthwhile.

Next, how does one go about configuring an ActiveX control to handle
specific MIME types as a plugin in IE?



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Re: [svg-developers] Re: WPF/E Goes Beta Community preview available for download

[Guy Morton]

How hard would it be to package this as an "SVG plugin"? ie package  
it in a windows installer a user could download and run and which  
would install itself and behave as the ASV plugin does today?

Guy

On 07/12/2006, at 3:53 AM, T Rowley wrote:

> On 12/6/06 10:36 AM, Jeff Schiller wrote:
>> I think I've asked before, but couldn't find my post when searching:
>> What would be the challenge in taking the Mozilla codebase and  
>> turning
>> that into an ActiveX control for IE that handles XHTML and SVG
>> content?  IE6 and 7 both don't support either MIME types, so this
>> would allow XHTML with SVG inline as well as SVG linked by reference
>> (HTML:object).  Get that deployed far enough and you could actually
>> see XHTML and SVG start to make inroads into the web.  Granted, it's
>> still a plugin, but at least it couldn't be killed by a corporation's
>> whim.
>
> Mozilla as an ActiveX control already exists:
>
>http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/control.htm
>
> You'd still be stuck with the click-to-active behavior of plugins  
> in IE.
>
> -tor
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe send a message to: svg-developers- 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -or-
> visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit  
> my membership"
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



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