Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-17 Thread Raks A 
Its jerky even in Flash on Windows, never tried though on a Mac
So does not look like it's a SVG implementation issue

The jerki-ness is probably because of the animation spread over 9 seconds
which is far too slow for the pixel size of the monitor

- Raks

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:22 PM, John Delacour  wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> Ever since I began with SVG I have looked forward to creating
> successful animations ( of multiple lever interactions over time)
> using SMIL but I am still waiting for a time when the majority of
> browsers can produce a smooth result.
>
> The following example from w3 is a simple illustration of the problem:
>
> 
>
> I work on the Mac and have Firefox 8 (latest beta), Opera 11.51 and
> Safari Version 5.1.1 (6534.51.22).
>
> Of these, only Safari produces a smooth animation. Both the others
> show a jerky progression that is quite unsuitable for the accurate
> representation of the mechanisms I wish to show. As a result I
> continue to create my animations from multiple frames, creating the
> frames using a Perl script, converting the frames to PDF and then
> making a Quicktime movie from the result.
>
> How 'good' Safari is on Windows I don't know, but in any case it
> would be an odd stipulation to insist that "this page must be viewed
> in Safari".
>
> What are the chances that the main browsers will in the near future
> resolve the difficulties they have in producing good moving pictures
> in SVG?
>
> JD
> 
>


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Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-17 Thread John Delacour 
At 17:40 +0530 17/10/11, Raks A wrote:


>Its jerky even in Flash on Windows, never tried though on a Mac
>So does not look like it's a SVG implementation issue
>
>The jerki-ness is probably because of the animation spread over 9 seconds
>which is far too slow for the pixel size of the monitor

As I said, it is fine in Safari and not in the other browsers, so it 
is obviously a browser issue.  I took that URL as one simple example. 
Please point me to some SMIL animations that are not jerky in Firefox 
and Opera and tell me why this particular example works in Safari and 
not in Opera or Firefox.

JD




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Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-17 Thread veiko herne 
You could try my SVG clips, they worked with Opera but not with Safari at least 
a year ago - http://www.veikoherne.com/wonderries
 
Veiko

http://www.veikoherne.com



From: John Delacour 
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

At 17:40 +0530 17/10/11, Raks A wrote:


>Its jerky even in Flash on Windows, never tried though on a Mac
>So does not look like it's a SVG implementation issue
>
>The jerki-ness is probably because of the animation spread over 9 seconds
>which is far too slow for the pixel size of the monitor

As I said, it is fine in Safari and not in the other browsers, so it 
is obviously a browser issue.  I took that URL as one simple example. 
Please point me to some SMIL animations that are not jerky in Firefox 
and Opera and tell me why this particular example works in Safari and 
not in Opera or Firefox.

JD




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Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-17 Thread Erik Dahlstrom 
On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 03:52:58 -0400, John Delacour  wrote:

>
> Ever since I began with SVG I have looked forward to creating
> successful animations ( of multiple lever interactions over time)
> using SMIL but I am still waiting for a time when the majority of
> browsers can produce a smooth result.
>
> The following example from w3 is a simple illustration of the problem:
>
> 
>
> I work on the Mac and have Firefox 8 (latest beta), Opera 11.51 and
> Safari Version 5.1.1 (6534.51.22).

The "jerkiness" you see is due to selecting different font-sizes, it's not  
a SMIL issue. You'd get a smoother animation if the same glyph outlines  
were used all the time.

-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed




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Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-18 Thread John Delacour 
At 14:01 -0400 17/10/11, Erik Dahlstrom wrote:


>On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 03:52:58 -0400, John Delacour  wrote:
>
>>   ...
>>  
>>   ...
>
>The "jerkiness" you see is due to selecting different font-sizes, it's not 
>a SMIL issue. You'd get a smoother animation if the same glyph outlines
>were used all the time.

Thanks Erik, but that doesn't explain why it has no jerkiness in 
Safari, and the code doesn't actually referto font-size in the 
animation.  The text is specified as

font-family="Verdana" font-size="35.27"

which presumably gives a fixed path composed of the glyphs for that size

and the animation, as I would understand it

   

changes the scale of that path and performs no operation on the XML 
attribute "font-size".  No matter how I change the duration or the 
scale range I get the same changing kerning.  Is that logical?

In Firefox there is jerkiness and besides, the font color remains 
black instead of changing as it should.  The relative movement and 
change of shape of the characters is worst in Opera, and in Safari 
everything seems to happen as it should.

I did not suggest it was a SMIL issue;  I suggested it was a browser 
issue with SMIL and that Firefox and Opera are clearly missing 
something that Safari has not missed.

JD




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Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-19 Thread ddailey 
 
 ON MON 10/17/11 11:56 AM , JOHN DELACOUR  

Please point me to some SMIL animations that are not jerky in
Firefox 
 and Opera [snip] 
http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/2011/Galorie.html [1] 

Generally, support for SMIL animation across browsers follows this
ordering: 

(Opera, ASV, FF, Chrome, Safari, IE9), though there are contexts in
which that ordering is warped. 
cheers 

David 
  . 
 


Links:
--
[1] http://cs.sru.edu/~ddailey/svg/2011/Galorie.html


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Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-19 Thread Raks A 
I downloaded Safari and for me its jerky and wobbly in Safari ( on Windows
XP ) as well
There is no difference in jerkiness between Safari and Firefox/Chrome

Did you try Safari on a Mac ? Are you trying FireFox and Safari on the same
CPU and monitor ?

- Rakesh

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:26 PM, John Delacour  wrote:

> **
>
>
> At 17:40 +0530 17/10/11, Raks A wrote:
>
> >Its jerky even in Flash on Windows, never tried though on a Mac
> >So does not look like it's a SVG implementation issue
> >
> >The jerki-ness is probably because of the animation spread over 9 seconds
> >which is far too slow for the pixel size of the monitor
>
> As I said, it is fine in Safari and not in the other browsers, so it
> is obviously a browser issue. I took that URL as one simple example.
> Please point me to some SMIL animations that are not jerky in Firefox
> and Opera and tell me why this particular example works in Safari and
> not in Opera or Firefox.
>
> JD
>
> 
>


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Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-19 Thread Erik Dahlstrom 
On Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:20:40 -0400, John Delacour  wrote:

> At 14:01 -0400 17/10/11, Erik Dahlstrom wrote:
>
>
>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 03:52:58 -0400, John Delacour  wrote:
>>
>>>   ...
>>>  
>>>   ...
>>
>> The "jerkiness" you see is due to selecting different font-sizes, it's  
>> not
>> a SMIL issue. You'd get a smoother animation if the same glyph outlines
>> were used all the time.
>
> Thanks Erik, but that doesn't explain why it has no jerkiness in
> Safari, and the code doesn't actually referto font-size in the
> animation.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough: any transform may affect the size of the text  
on screen. Now, the browser knows this, but there are (at least) two ways  
you can select the glyph outlines - before or after the transforms have  
been applied, so in one case you extract glyph outlines at size 14px and  
then scale those, and in the other case if you had a scale(2) transform  
you might extract the outlines at actual fontsize 28px. Subpixel fontsizes  
combined with this can lead to a sort of staircase effect, as seen in some  
browsers. This was mentioned in the talk by Google Docs at SVG Open the  
other day,  
http://svgopen.org/2011/registration.php?section=abstracts_and_proceedings#paper_52.

The solution that was proposed was to use  
text-rendering="geometricPrecision" to mean that you want the smoothly  
scaled transition. However, this doesn't yet solve the problem since that  
fix has not yet been made in all the different browsers. Note that  
geometricPrecision can lead to text that is harder to read, and the spec  
says that by default more importance should be given to text legibility,  
see http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#TextRenderingProperty.

A workaround could be to convert the outlines to paths e.g in Inkscape,  
and then animate those.

-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed




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Re: [svg-developers] SMIL -- still not yet!

2011-10-20 Thread John Delacour 
At 12:09 -0400 19/10/11, Erik Dahlstrom wrote:

>Maybe I wasn't clear enough: any transform may affect the size of the text
>on screen...
>
>The solution that was proposed was to use 
>text-rendering="geometricPrecision" to mean that you want the 
>smoothly transition. However, this doesn't yet solve the problem 
>since that fix has not yet been made in all the different browsers. 
>Note that geometricPrecision can lead to text that is harder to 
>read, and the spec says that by default more importance should be 
>given to text legibility,
>see http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#TextRenderingProperty.

Thank you for the full explanation, Erik.

>A workaround could be to convert the outlines to paths e.g in Inkscape,
>and then animate those.

Ah good, so that would work?, and now I wonder if this is not already 
being done in Firefox and Opera, because another difference I have 
just noticed is that in Safari (*Mac*, to answer Raks A's question) 
you can copy the animated text as text, whereas in Firefox and Opera 
you can't, as though it had indeed been converted to a path or paths. 
Maybe in practice people would rarely want to copy animated text, but 
in principle SVG text is copyable.

Incidentally I am by no means a Mac Safari groupie, and while in this 
case the text is both smooth and copyable, it slides out of view at 
the end of the animation, whereas in F and O it ends up central.

JD







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